Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

#29 - Debrief on A Discussion on Land Acknowledgments

• Aaron Brien, Shandin Pete • Season 1 • Episode 29

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In this episode, the Tribal Research Specialist (TRS) team debrief on the previous episodes discussion on the ever-expanding phenomenon of land acknowledgements. The episode starts with an  war dance song  recorded on July 9th, 1950 in Arlee, MT and being taught to a group by Joseph Weaselhead, a Blackfeet, who was living on the Flathead Reservation. While singing with the group he wanted to sing a certain Blackfeet song. This is an early example of the ability that singers posses to learn new song quickly. It also brings in the discussion of how this remains true for powwow singers today. There are complications and difficulties that are discussed in the comical and often unseen world of powwow singing.

The discussion continues with an overview of the podcast statistics including where our listeners are tuning in from. Further, the TRS team begin tackling some of the main talking points brought up in the previous episode.

The second half starts with another song recorded recorded on July 9th, 1950 at  Arlee, MT. The Blackfeet war dance song is from Joseph Weaselhead and accompanied by Louie Nine Pipe (Salish), Mary Beaverhead (Salish), Paul Finley, (Salish) Philip Rondine (Blackfeet), Frank Big Crane (Salish), Jerome Hewankorn (Kootenai).

In the the last half, the discussion shifts to an in-depth discussion and debrief on the main tenets brought up in the previous episode.

Join the discussion and  let us know your thoughts.

Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)

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Shandin Pete:

You're now tuned in to this week's episode of Tribal Research Specialist to the podcast, a podcast about tribal people, our communities, and discussions on research traditions, we aim to uncover the true meaning of research methodological approaches that are currently operating in tribal life with implications for tribal communities, and avenues for knowledge production. to high got pretty interesting, they're a real live look at the inside, or the inside details of the old time singing, I guess even in the new time is the same deal. You know, you get one guy wants to sing a song and they humming around a little bit and nobody likes it. But nobody says nothing. Then about 40 minutes later, somebody wants to sing this other song, so they got to relearn a whole new song. You put it too high, you're putting it too high. or too high. Or we started did we go? Yeah, we're calling we're on. We're now we are now.

Aaron Brien:

You ever seen with with a drum group you ever seen in the drum group where what you're saying is,

Shandin Pete:

though, though,

Aaron Brien:

they'll they'll say, Hey, you got to learn this song. So they'll kind of hum it to you and your partner and they'll say, oh, at supper of our recording. I'll put on your phone or Oh, yeah, whatever. The knee like, Okay. All right. And there's a lot of pressure like, yeah, we're gonna use a Saturday night. This is gonna be like our Saturday night song, you know? Yeah, they're tribal. Or when we're getting judgment. You need to show you the song and then pretty soon, the lead singers. Mm hmm. Then everyone's kind of like listening. Yeah. Then you do the Leaning thing where you're leaning in? Yeah. But then you don't want to overseeing Yeah, like overseeing the lead singer. You know that? Yeah. Yeah. So then you just listen. They kind of get you pumped up. Can he pumped up? And it's like, Saturday afternoon, and then pretty soon, Saturday night? a Saturday night and then and then I'm no sir home and that's it. You always have that one singer. That's like singing it like, like quietly but like he would be doing contests where he's like,

Unknown:

he just kind of hidden.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, and then here comes and then here it comes. Right. I've got like three drums down and yeah, okay. The judge judges are moving. We're all kind of like coming in you yourself. You've been listening to it on your phone. Yeah, I know what I'm gonna do. Yeah, now it comes time to picking the leads where he's like, a big burst. You know, when you're young, you're not even part of this conversation. You're not even like, you're just sitting there. You're just sitting there but when you get to a point where you're kind of got a decent lead and you've been in you're still got a voice on Saturday and live Saturday night? Yeah, they're looking around you just never know. So there's a little bit of nervous energy where you like they might pick you and then of course you can't act excited right if they pick you No, no can't be it can't be Oh, yeah, that'd be the cool guy take for God who takes third you won't take third but take third. Yeah, yeah. Should Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that whatever Just tell me And then and then the next job in front of you, then they're kind of like jammin. Yeah. And then they switch the song.

Shandin Pete:

Every time. Every time every time. Everybody knows the song. Yeah. You've been practicing it since Friday. The first drum roll call that sits on your phone. It's on your record. Yeah. Yeah. Your kids know it. He your wife knows it. Yeah, everybody knows it.

Aaron Brien:

You've even got your Hi, Chas planned. Like, you kind of know where we're

Unknown:

coming in with.

Aaron Brien:

And then they change the song. That happens a lot when I used to sing with that the old Chippewa Cree drum group or like, yeah, or like, even dry lake a little bit with john janowitz. Switch the song because? Yeah, I don't know, the spirits told him or something. Yeah, I don't know what anyway, that was that was that was kind of the nuances. Your recording, there was like the nuances of what it's like, yeah, sitting at the drum. And one thing that's always true, is don't sing over the person showing the song. Yeah, that's like a rookie move. You ever, like sit down and you got a new guy there. And he'll like, he'll be like, stared at the lead singer. Sing it, and he's just singing over the lead. But he's doing it wrong. So just kind of mess up. And it's like, if you want to kill a song, like just do that. And then they'll move on to the next tune. You know? Recently, my nephew, my sister's boy louella, who's, I guess a guest host? on the podcast? Yeah, her boy. He's very interested in cultural things and singing and stuff. And, and he was very nervous about this particular doing now what's going to happen? Yeah, he said, What do I do? What I do, I don't want to embarrass myself in so many words, right? And I said, Well, for one Shut up, just shut up. And secondly is don't sing over the lead singer. Let him show the song. So rule of thumb for those of us who are add in can help ourselves as you just you're just mouthed the first start when they're singing it. They're humming it. You guys kind of and you move your head to it up and down. All the corners. A second start is a light hum.

Unknown:

And yeah,

Aaron Brien:

yeah. And the third start is, you come in and then you do the fake downbeat. Yeah, it then goes down by the fourth go around. You should be able to hum the whole thing. Yeah, without making a fool out of yourself. But rookies, what they do is they show the song and then that guy that has Yes, yeah. Can you remember them days? When were you? What was your rookie year singing? Not practice not in the practice, pin. Not practice pin, like, like the team Roper say, the first time you like hit the contest?

Shandin Pete:

I don't know, you know, it seemed like I just kind of feel like a rookie all the time. You know, I was I was really into it once for for a spell there. You know, like, really want to hit the trail hard. And you know, I'll be getting get into the contests all the time, but it faded pretty fast. You know, I just I just didn't like the pressure and I just loved love to sing. But it didn't love the pressure of, of having to perform in that way. You know?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. So for me, like, why I cannot quit polling for one. You have kids and then you have responsibilities and giant, but like, one thing I never was in love with? Was that I felt like I wasted a whole day. Just sitting is like what I will say like a Saturday night. Yeah, outside outdoor power. It's got like an old school Arbor, you know? Yeah. And you're singing with a group that's just crispy. And yeah, sounds good. And that feeling is like a drug man. It is. It is.

Shandin Pete:

There is no other and there is no other feeling though. When you're singing so loud. Yeah. Yeah, you feel like you feel your teeth rattling because you're singing so loud and and you still can't hear yourself.

Aaron Brien:

And you're just everyone's just hitting where it needs to be hit. Yeah. And you can hear the bells. And you can tell the audience the people around the drum. They're like, yeah, this we're witnessing something cool. Yeah, they do that thing where they like, look at the dancers. Yeah, they look at you. Yeah, cuz I think they want to see what the dancers are experiencing. Yeah, clearly, they're witnessing some good. And I've been on both sides of that, where I'm the guy watching the drum group. And I'm the guy singing and you just know you're hitting it. But you had to wait 14 hours that day. for that.

Shandin Pete:

Or longer for that one song. And you only get maybe three that that whole day? Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Oh, maybe maybe three. Maybe? Maybe 333 at like, like a casino power. You'll get three. Yeah, but like at like a rocky boy. Indian days are really the big the big the big Montana circuit. Yeah, you're gonna get one song man.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. That's tough. That's tough. Then you said one thing he did all day. You just and you eat you can't visit because it's too because too noisy.

Aaron Brien:

And then you can't go to like someone's camp and visit because then there's the pressure all the time they get called upon

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, stick around they but they say like look

Aaron Brien:

at all the time. You might get called upon

Shandin Pete:

and then gonna adopt it. They're gonna adopt like the Outback Steakhouse. The you know, they give you the little circle that lights up when it's you're getting called upon for your table. Yeah. Take the prayer carry

Aaron Brien:

that. Yeah, you carry that little thing around it buzzes Yeah, yeah. Your buzzer

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's it. Well, I want to chat for a second about this these statistics for the show because it's really interesting. Very interesting. Number one, I want you to guess and you'll probably guess it right off but Which country do you think has the most downloads of our show? Which country? Switzerland man

Aaron Brien:

I mean I just no

Shandin Pete:

No,

Aaron Brien:

no, the Swiss cheese goddess

Shandin Pete:

I mean the Swiss see you know we have I don't think we have any downloads from Switzerland and just looking I don't see any not a one because

Aaron Brien:

they got pirate pirate episodes

Shandin Pete:

it's it's shared on

Aaron Brien:

Is it is it pirated? Are pirated? pirated? pirated? Yes, but I've been hearing people say it's pirated.

Shandin Pete:

That's this fancy way to say it, I guess.

Aaron Brien:

sophistically like mathematics pie.

Shandin Pete:

Like aluminium versus aluminium. Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

so where's that most of the United States? Yes,

Shandin Pete:

United States. It's the United States. But who do you think isn't second now? This is important. This Okay, United States 5548 downloads in the United States of America. Who's second? This is important one. Canada? Yeah, of course. Canada 4%. But only 4% so we're no 19 we're not reaching Canada. I don't know why. I don't know. Why

Aaron Brien:

do they not? Do they not? Maybe we should call this First Nations Research Specialist.

Shandin Pete:

No, no. Canada 4% 272 downloads from Canada. I mean, I'm not gonna complain. But they're the clo

Aaron Brien:

Canada's got us they got to step their game up but God has stepped the game. Maybe

Shandin Pete:

we need a Canadian guest

Aaron Brien:

let's do a Canadian we tried that. We tried that.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, we did? Yeah, we were gonna do that again. But we didn't even we needed another one. Second place this well let's just gonna surprise our third place is going to surprise you. Third place rolling I'm guessing Yeah. 55% I mean, 55 downloads. Which countries Zealand? Negative there. Yeah, no negative. New Zealand is got three total downloads over the whole show. Or the whole all episodes? Three. That's okay. But second, third place. Where? Italy? Italy. Italy. Yeah, Italy. We're gonna see Italy, followed by Indonesia 30 downloads, France 26 downloads. Brazil 17 in deaths not

Aaron Brien:

real Indonesia

Shandin Pete:

30 Yeah, we got a quite the following in Indonesia. I mean, we don't know what's going on. They're 17 downloads Brazil, and 11 United Kingdom this just goes down from there. Now this is important United States guess guess and guess where the most downloads are occurring in the United States? Just Just guess a state?

Aaron Brien:

Kansas?

Shandin Pete:

Negative. Okay. Kansas is probably on the list but I don't see it can tucky negative. We've got the most downloads in the bible belt is the Bible born in the West we're in the West.

Aaron Brien:

Okay, okay. Okay, West

Shandin Pete:

Washington. Negative Colorado Centennial College town called Centennial Colorado 6% of download coming out of Centennial Colorado Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

414 down that's a stat has to be a class. That has to be like a class that like we're assigned listening for a class

Shandin Pete:

passing so you think so what we want to know if you are in Centennial, Colorado? We want to know man, we want to know

Aaron Brien:

second play? Maybe Maybe someone? Maybe Maybe someone from Centennial, Colorado who's an avid listener? Could be our next guest.

Shandin Pete:

Let's do that. Yeah, let's call him out. Centennial Colorado. We want you we want you to draw straws. assigned leader come forward. We want you on 414 windows celebrate that way to go Centennial Colorado. Second place. This is the last one. Okay, then we'll move on. Alright, second place. The great State of Alaska. Anchorage. Anchorage, Alaska. 4%. Nice. Yeah. 206 I've done loads. Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

I've been to Anchorage Alaska. All the natives will go to this place called tutor. Bingo. Oh really? tutor being on hang out there. So like if you're any any like if you're from the lower 48 near Alaska, you're like last? Indian? Indian. You're a tutor Bingo.

Shandin Pete:

tutor. Bingo. They're all there.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, they're going to be the just in in rule of thumb Spokane. If you lost one now you go to Northern quest. Back in the day you go to Dick's burgers.

Shandin Pete:

I don't know why it's so gross. I guess though. Oh, come on. Oh, I don't like it. I used to when I was younger. But now, you know, I'd rather not stop. And so I'm trying

Aaron Brien:

to I'm trying to see I'm looking at I'm really looking at looking at Centennial, Colorado's.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, it's just south of Denver.

Aaron Brien:

Their. Their wiki, their wiki?

Shandin Pete:

Oh, look at their wiki page.

Aaron Brien:

It's, it's, it's the nearest to Aurora, which is Denver metropolitan area. Okay. But no mate. No major colleges or universities going? I mean, quite a few high schools. Right. So one, in fact, is called Arapahoe High School. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So maybe maybe it's someone from Arapahoe High School. That's because that seems like pretty random, you know?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. We got we got a we got to unravel this mystery. We do.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. Funny. Funny story. Yeah. Secret Arapaho. Arapaho is a mispronunciation of the crow word. Love Paul. Od laupahoehoe which was the Aleppo hole, which is the CRO word for Rock Springs, Wyoming or that area? Oh, really? Saratoga and Rock Springs and Green River and Yeah. Which is supposedly where the CRO met the Arapaho. Really? Shall we call them alapaha. Which means like, think it means like some place where you push something or something like that.

Shandin Pete:

Could it be that that that word was a borrowed word? That you guys adopted?

Aaron Brien:

Or no, because you can break it down? Oh, okay. It's a place the word is a place. Okay. Hello, Paul.

Shandin Pete:

So then that must mean, I don't know what that means. That's interesting, though. I don't know.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. But you know, the crows were somewhat allied with the government. So the government's going to take its information from the retros. So they're gonna say Well, what do you guys call these people and their clothes are allied with the non Indian people. There, so, yeah, that's the name that's going to be, which is EGT gotcha. egt gosh, it means EGT Gosh, Arshad means Elk River. Hmm. But if you slow it down and say it wrong, you should really be Sheila means yellow rock. So if I say be shealy, Asha and Asha means River. Yeah, she the Asha Yellowstone River. But the crawler for Yellowstone River is EGT. Gotcha. Huh. gopher figure? Go figure that to the bank. Let's see that. And Pictionary.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah.

Unknown:

That's it anyway.

Aaron Brien:

What I was gonna say though, okay, is when you're at these powers and these functions, and they, they, they'll reach out there grab an elder. Yep. And they'll say, could you pray? Could you pray for today's functions? Right, right. This, this is a practice that is a blending. And correct me if I'm wrong. Okay. But traditional idea of wish making, you're going to wish good for someone? Sure. This idea of praying at the beginning of something like this is really adopted from the church. So let's, let's pray for this function. This is a this is kind of a let's before we begin, let's pray. Right? Right. So this is blending. But having said that, in all of these things, in my years of going to different powers and all of the Northwest and seeing different tribes in the way they do things. I had never, ever one time seen a land acknowledgement.

Shandin Pete:

Have you? No, no, may never have, you know, you'll hear people come up. And they'll, they'll, you know, they'll get a somebody from another tribe and come up and pray, you know, and they'll acknowledge the people, you know, thanks for, you know, hosting this, such in such event, those kinds of things. But, yeah, you don't see that formally stated in though in the way that it's stated in these days. We do we need it. We need it. No, no, I don't know, man. I don't know. You know, I like some of I like a lot of the suggestions that were made. And I like the conversation about it in the last episode, because it's, you know, it's just like, it's like anything, if somebody wants to do something in a certain way, and they but they don't really know what to do, then, you know, you could? I don't I don't know, it's just depends on who? Who is the consultant? Who do they consult with? And those folks who consulted are they representative of the of the community, the larger community and in the wishes of them? And then again, is the community Do they even care? Do they even care to even participate in something like that? Those that's that's the issue. That is one of the issues, I think, because, like you, you mentioned, and I ascribe to that belief, too, is, you know, there's, I don't I don't pay a lot of attention to it. It's just it's background noise in a way. I know the intent. And I see the intent. But, man, we should look, look around at our own people and say, Man, we, you know, here here on the rez, there's a town called Dixon. And it's named after Joseph Dixon, I believe is his first name. And he was pretty anti Indian senator or, or government agent, I can't remember which one, but we retain that name here on the reservation, we we should be making efforts to change that. And it's infiltrated so deeply into the lives here that even one of the tribal voting districts retains that name of Dixon. And, you know, yeah, in a way, where, if you if you compare it to the land acknowledgement, we're continuing to acknowledge the existence of someone, I guess that was not really to kind in these parts. So yeah,

Aaron Brien:

I mean, I think tribal people can require land acknowledgments on one hand, but I think before that can even happen, we have to make steps to write them, right. right the wrongs in terms of what we call our own communities, you know, right. How can you How can you come to a reservation and then say, we want you guys to acknowledge whose land you're on but yet you got to tell Named after an Indian agent, right? Or you got you got several towns named after Indian agents that weren't very known as great people.

Shandin Pete:

Right? Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Or how can you How can you require land acknowledgments from people? but yet you yourself don't even quite understand the landscapes you're standing on?

Unknown:

Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. That's, I think that's the work. I think that's the work that communities need to do. And then I think there wouldn't be as much confusion, I suppose, when this issue comes up about what maybe an appropriate way to, to guide the folks who want to do these land acknowledgments. I mean, we're so I guess, in a way, we're so scattered in the in the things that we believe in our own communities, the efforts we put into our own lands to, to teach our own histories. How can we expect to use the vehicle of universities, other institutions and organizations to teach our histories? by example, I think their proclamations or statements. So what do you

Aaron Brien:

overall, What's your feeling No, on this is landing Mona, good, bad. You against them?

Shandin Pete:

I'm not against it. I'm in desperate, I'm indifferent. I see it as a positive step forward. I think it's let's just like a lot of things, you know, if if it's if you jump into it, you're going to make a lot of mistakes. If you don't engage in your your community and into the people that really matter. If you just get input from a handful of folks, then you're going to get a product that's not necessarily going to be agreeable to everybody. And you see that happen a lot. Yeah, no, go ahead.

Aaron Brien:

No, you go finish. No,

Shandin Pete:

I mean, you see that happen a lot. Because consensus is difficult to achieve. to involve, yeah, yeah, involve a lot of people and make sure everybody feels like they're satisfied and in the amount of involvement they were offered. That's, that's difficult, that work is hard. And the way our society moves today, people they wouldn't they're either too lazy or too impatient, or just the pace at which things moves. It's hard to

Aaron Brien:

do. I think even for what we're doing right here, people might take this as like we're being haters, and right. And I know for fun, sometimes we kind of like tease around like we are being haters yet, for the most part, what my biggest gripe is, is I tend to have skepticism towards anything that's trendy. Right. You know, and I worry, I worry that I'm going to get on board with this whole notion of landing knowledge mints, and then it's going to be gone. Yeah, which tells me it wasn't very sincere to begin with, you know.

Shandin Pete:

Right. Right. Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

my just our mind just wacky. Well,

Shandin Pete:

I mean, that's, that's true to probably but

Aaron Brien:

I mean, I, I'm guilty. I'm guilty of being somewhat critical and kind of a hater and wacky, but I've also thought that native people can do a lot better. Yeah, we can do we can we're capable of a lot of cool things. Right? Yeah, yeah, we settle for short showmanship sometimes, you know,

Shandin Pete:

true. So true. Or am I going too far? No, you know, keep going, man.

Aaron Brien:

I just, I just this counseling here. I know. And I want it. I want it to be said that this episode was actually inspired a little bit by our car. Part time co host that was crazy. Facebook post on lending known acknowledgement.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, she had quite the post. And, you know, we I think we've had, we've been, we've been consciously trying to steer away from trendy or, I guess, topics that might feed off of negative energy, at least I try to I try to keep it positive. I try to try to investigate the issues that need further investigating, challenge some of the things that our own people are doing, rather than looking outside at what other people are trying to do put on us on people and what we do and think. Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, yeah, agreed. What's funny is though, when we started this podcast, we started under the notion or the genre that we're an academic podcast. Right, that we're doing this as some form of research in ourselves, really this podcast to me was always kind of like, academic therapy. The funny part about this is neither one of us now are academics.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Yeah. In a sense that we work for a university.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, yeah, we're still scholars.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, we're not attached to an institution. Oh, here we go. Scholars do

Aaron Brien:

native scholars with the word to our old one.

Shandin Pete:

What I mean, I'm just translating, I'm just doing a little translating what I mean is, I mean, you know, we have a lot of older folks living that have vast amounts of knowledge. those are those are really the ones that are that are the, I don't know, I hate to make the the equation equal something in an academic institution. But just why is it scholars is because we do, we have our own way of doing things. And we have our folks that do detailed investigations and discoveries on our own land and in our own among our own people, and in our own landscapes, and they're not housed in a in a under a college or university. There's no journals that get produced and in and published, I

Aaron Brien:

don't, and I don't know if that's ever, ever going to be a necessity, you know, we're gonna be a need. I'm not against me. I've never been against being open about the cultural life of tribal people. But I've always been real critical of who's doing the research and why.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. So when you see something comes out, something come out that's published that that has a has anything to do with natives or indigenous folks? Yeah, I tend to get a little little bit critical, I guess. I want to know how representatives misty, Misty eyed St. Yesterday, test the eye? I do. I do. I mean, I see the worth in it. It's just like the land acknowledgement, I see the worth in it. You know, we've had we had some native scholar, fortunate enough to navigate through this odd educational system, get a credential. And that becomes successful and publish something that's that's notable. That is notable. But I think the system the system of academics and institutions is not set up to capture the kind of validation that research requires in Indian communities. And I don't know that it's so fragmented now. Also, that even to get a tribal consensus or validation on something is is difficult in itself today. Whereas it may not have been in the past. I don't know if that's totally true, but it still operates, we still get we still get checked on what we do.

Aaron Brien:

Do I think that and this is going to sound mean, but it's not meant to be mean. But if maybe you can help me come up with a better term. Okay. But shallow, shallow indigenous research isn't is now accepted. Yes. But once we start getting into things that native people want to talk about, yeah, insular, like things that are insular, like, things that are just for us, not necessarily we're not doing it for the advancement of ourselves. Right. I think that's a benefit of some of this research. But also it's it's legitimate curiosity in a corner. In a topic, right? That's, that's been met with some resistance in academics, you start getting into now. And then we start creating arbitrary boundaries, right? academic starts to create these like, Well, you can't do that because of this. So this step started this and this. And it's like, What? That's all right. Let's, let's, let's see how it turns out. If it turns out to be garbage. Well, then, then we can check that off the list that that method to get to that wasn't good. That's research, man. That is, it is. There's this, there's this belief in academics, and I'm guilty of it too, especially early on was that you had to be right. Your first go round? Yeah. When, when really, you come to a point where you say, you know, it's gonna be two, three, maybe even four versions before I actually get what it is that I want to get. And even when I get to that point, I might realize that the entire question I'm asking is wrong. Yeah. And you got to be okay with that. If you're not okay with that. You're just not going to do well in research, right? You're not? Yeah, for some reason, Native people have been put in this, on this academic pedestal that, especially if they're going to do research on Indian people, it has to be, it's, it's going to be it's just accepted. And I feel like sometimes Indian people might do shoddy work, because we're students, not because they're Indians. But we're learning. Yeah. And they just take it, and they'll be like, okay, and not my greatest singer. But that non Indian kid is why boy over here. He had to throw five versions of something in I need that same critique rail. Yeah. I've been have you. Have you been to jail? Have you come across some of this?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, I mean, I think I have I, it was hard to know, whether I was I was being subjected to that kind of favoritism or, you know, getting handled with the with the, with the soft mitts, versus the, you know, the, like you said, the other person who gets what rigorous,

Aaron Brien:

it does always seem that it's, yeah. It's always one or the other. I know, you're Indian, you should get this right. Or you're Indian, there's no way you can study your own people. Why are you even trying blah, blah, blah. They hold you to different standards. It's never just that middle road, it always seems to be. So this idea of land acknowledgments to me kind of comes from similar ground where it's like, where it's something that to me is accepted in that shallow genre where it's like, it's accepted by the mainstream to a degree. Yeah. Because really, at the end of the day, what does it do? Yeah. Do you think and I'm not just being a hater. But do you think people go home non Indian people go like, you know what, they're right, man, we don't, we don't really truly appreciate where we live and whose land this belongs to. And who used to live here for 1000s of years, hundreds of years, centuries generations? You know, do they go home and reflect on that are? Well, what do you think

Shandin Pete:

I would, I would guess that some do, I think it might be an eye opening for some, but those ones are they're already ready to to embrace whatever it is that's thrown at them. You know,

Aaron Brien:

maybe someone in Centennial Colorado had this experience and they started listening to Tribal Research Specialist podcast because they were at a at a at a What are they doing Colorado at a john Elway motivate national speech? and john Elway says, Do you know what? I'm acknowledging that I'm on the ancestral lands of the I mean, no one lives there. The Utes probably Utes, Arapaho, Southern Shai, the Cheyenne Dakotas. Yeah. And then john Elway. JOHN Elway bursted into tears because of this speech. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you heard I'm sure you heard about it. It was it was in the papers.

Shandin Pete:

That really happened. No. You're pretty convincing. In Yeah, yeah. You know, some people do some people say oh, wow, I never knew that. I never knew that. In let's go to let's go to Disneyland.

Aaron Brien:

I never knew that. Let's go to Denny's.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, yeah. I never knew that. Where's the Starbucks? I didn't know that. lunch. Oh, man,

Aaron Brien:

I didn't know that. Well, that's are they gonna have sandwiches here?

Shandin Pete:

Well, that's why I think some some native folks, native scholars have said, you know, well, what's what's next? There's more, there's should be more to this. There should be some action behind it. And I think that's where we started this discussion of these recommendations where Yeah, you know, maybe there's, there's a better way, maybe you don't need to make a proclamation in a statement after everything you say and do. But perhaps you should, in the things you're presenting on and or talking about, you should display some sort of mastery of the history by explaining deeper, the the things that are around you that say that these people were here without having to say it explicitly. If that makes sense.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. And I think that's just tactfulness. You know, that is, it's not cheesy. It's a cool approach. It's like, yeah, yeah, I like it.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Then it's contextualized. In that rather than saying, Yeah, these people were here. Now let's talk about virology and in cat immunology, associated with the pandemic, I don't know, insert anything in there, but to be able to masterfully insert that into your whatever you're trying to do that seems that I would enjoy that. Oh, that would be would make me Listen, I suppose. But that can't be done in every instance, I suppose. But that can't be done in every instance. I'm guessing it would be difficult, but it would seem like a stone. I know. Who knows? Who knows? Yeah, who knows. And that, that gets me back to what you were saying earlier about. It's just like, it's just like research. academic research. It seems to play on something in this land acknowledgement deal might be a part of this, when it plays off of problems, it plays off of issues, kind of, you know, negative things, you know, so let's see why let's issue let's study why we have we're having a hard time retaining Native students. Let's study why Native students are coming unprepared for college algebra. Let's study why we have such a high dropout rate of Native students, it's always something negative. And the things that we're interested in is not necessarily that it's man, what is the what are the cool things that we can we can investigate, describe, uncover? That's, that's in their own communities that gives us strength. If you know what I mean, I mean, how many how many speeches and research projects are there on language? loss? All that stuff. But man, what's working and why is it working?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. For example, let's talk about this idea of language loss. Yeah. How many articles have you read or seen even headlines? newspaper articles, journal articles, lightning, ballistics articles, cultural preservation programs, foundations grants for combating this problem of language loss, in fact, yeah, they start out with like, this many such and such native languages are lost daily, right? Yeah. And it's this. We've lost this many speakers. We've done this. There's only these two left. There's whatever. When really, there's some pretty neat thing happening in language preservation. For example. I took a crow language class this summer. Yeah, it was like a three day deal. Yeah. In fact, they're doing one this weekend. I don't know say Leisha did one of the weekends. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. They're doing one this weekend. But I think like 16 to 25 people signed up for it, which is awesome. It's all people interested in culture language. Yeah. Misty signed up for a Blackfoot language class, just recently, and it meets every Tuesday. There's 500 people signed up for it. Yeah, I heard about there was 390 people in the class last night. Wow. That's that should be celebrated. Yeah. Yeah. It should be. So the research question, isn't that Oh, the Blackfeet language class is better than everybody else's research question is what's happening in the Blackfoot community? Yeah, where people are what? What, what's the difference? Why are they Why are they pressing register for that class versus Other reservations because I all I venture, alright, challenge anyone to find me a language native language class that's gonna have more people involved

Shandin Pete:

390 more than 390 people. So what you're saying, right? Yeah. Yeah. You're lucky if you get three or four people, you know, wander down to the community hall or wherever to, you know, to learn the colors again, learn the numbers again, to learn how to say, Good afternoon again. I don't know. I'm just being hater now. Yeah. And just yeah, dog.

Aaron Brien:

Well, well, and I've come to accept this to native language classes, too. Although the goal is to teach language, that's never been the outcome. Right?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Never been the outcome. Right. But I think people who find success in it are people who like the environment.

Shandin Pete:

What do you mean,

Aaron Brien:

they love the environment of native language classrooms where they can hear words in their language, and topics that are talked about our cultural topics, and yeah, where it's getting to the point where those people who sit and visit around about cultural things, is dwindling, so rapid that these manufactured places like classrooms, are becoming those vestiges of where you can talk about things. And I think that's what's happening and what the Blackfoot was people are starving for it. They want it. Yeah. Where there's many Native communities that are in denial of preservation loss,

Shandin Pete:

or cultural loss. I think I get what you're saying, I get what you're saying. It's like we talked about previously about the, the wakes and funerals people go because they they get to, you know, it's kind of morbid, I guess, in a way, it's part of our cultural way. And not morbid in that way. But you get to you get to partake in a cultural practice. And like you said, we're starved for that. We're not serene environment. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

This environment of Native people getting together where it used to be there was functions. There was doings. People would hear functions at their homes at community halls. And, yeah, it's really cold out night. Somebody might say, let's have a dance tonight. Right? And you can go and you can go and learn and our our things were more open and public. Let's have a dance. You talk to any reservation in Montana. And I would imagine the same as for the neighboring states and provinces. Yeah. Is that once winter set in there was a lot of dancing. Yeah. ceremonial, are special there was. It didn't take much to make it happen. You didn't have to celebrate a holiday, you can just say, so it's gonna have a dance. Yeah. Yeah. Just do it. You know, I just know. Let's do it. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

That's a long way from landing knowledge.

Shandin Pete:

Well, I think it's important because if you if you if you think about tying it back into that, it's it's this right. It's It's just what you said, things that things are getting co opted. Things are co opting the culture like the the learning classroom, you expect to learn the language in a classroom, it's become the norm. You expect the whiteboard, and he expect some handouts and some sheets and workbook, maybe some CDs. You know that that's kind of what we got. I'm not saying that's bad. But it's been co opted by this learning environment. That includes those things. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, you're right.

Aaron Brien:

I noticed too, like, because I I've been a part of the Flathead reservation community for a while when I first moved here. Yeah, I remember. There was still quite a few elders. Yeah. They would get together and visit. And I remember hearing, say this conversation. Yeah. And then, about 10 years into that, I just noticed that that was a thing. Yeah. Then about five years after that. So about, you know, 1215 years later, I noticed that classroom language classrooms, and yeah, in these camps, culture camps, yeah, they became culture. So 2025 20 years ago, here. Yeah. If you were to say, if you were to say, Are you a cultural person, that person might say, Yes, I go to a, b, and c, right? I go to these functions, or I was raised in these functions. This is what my core belief is. Now if you say, Are you a cultural person? They'll say, Oh, yeah, I go to the medicine tree every year. And I, I'm my language class, I go to this this person, right? Have you noticed that or is that just me? No. I

Shandin Pete:

mean, I yeah, I see it. I see it. There's there's little little pockets of, of our guests use a terminal these cliques of folks. You know that that are I suppose in that way? No, I know. Yeah, it is. It is. And how and why that would be and you know, I, and I'm not one to judge, I can't I can't really judge someone's efforts in that way. And I don't think you're doing we're all in that same boat. Yeah. No, I just just fall in the same boat. Yeah, yeah. There's,

Aaron Brien:

there's a little unique as it is what it is, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. There's little unification of that, because of who knows what, because somebody is anti gun and somebody is anti back in the 70s. So now these guys don't ever hang out. Even though they could share across their family some great knowledge or whatever. I don't know. I don't know.

Aaron Brien:

Oh, yeah. grudges and vendettas. That's part of it. But I also think that's not even really what I was getting at. I was just getting that like, tribal people go to what's accessible. And okay, and I'm calling out traditional people to where they got so insular. Yes, that it scared it scared and push people away to where now that group, that core group of traditionalist Orthodox people, if you will, yeah. are seen as the outcast. So now the populace is doing it this other way. Right. accessible way.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

And I've seen that on a lot of different reservations. Now, it changes when you see young people, people always say, well, we have to be it's the old people are our leaders, our elders. I don't find that to be true. What I find is when our younger person takes charge, then the old people back that person Yeah, and where this is real, real elephant culturally and ceremonially is in Fort Belknap. Right. Terry brockie Johnston, farmer, Sean Chandler on the low one side, and then Tuffy and all them guys on the nakota side, but what I noticed this, none of those men are old men.

Shandin Pete:

Read, read, you know, but

Aaron Brien:

their experience of cultural resurgence?

Unknown:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. So now, when you talk to people, they're gonna say, Well, what do you what do you participate in? They say some real stuff, man. Right? Yeah. It's not hokey. It's not cheesy. It's not,

Shandin Pete:

you know, they say real things. And it's not something I put on a flyer and advertise is as normal of daily life. It's part of the daily life.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, it's, it's awesome. And it's awesome to see. And I see that in drowning. I see that and other reservations. And, and I don't know, man. Now we're kind of going, I know, I keep I keep going off schedule. Well, I

Shandin Pete:

know I we don't have a schedule it This reminded me of a gentleman I met on one of my trips to down to New Zealand's name's Kevin Lewis, I'm gonna I'm gonna phone him up and see if he wants to come on this show. Because he started a camp or he's part of a camp, I'm not sure which we can clarify. But they tried to break that mold of the classroom as a place to learn the language. And so they involve, they get involved in doing their traditional activities, when they're appropriate. And I think they use that as a platform to learn the language. So they're always outdoors doing something, I see him posting on Facebook quite often, you know, making bows, doing hunting things, those kind of stuff, that real authentic stuff that you know, that people that we need to pair with the language to make it useful. Otherwise, we're going to learn how to say desk, whiteboard, computer, jump drive, and all the things that are associated with the environment in which the language is being taught. And I think the land acknowledgement seems to, in a way fit in with that because that part of our our cultural way of you know, like you said, right, in the beginning, you know, when, when when you say a prayer, a wish or a luck, even though even though you mentioned it might be part of a different cultural way, you know, we there was traditional ways of acknowledging each other in a traditional way, when we met, you know, there was a way it was a ceremonial way, whether you call it ceremonial or not, there was a process to introduce each other and to make peace in a way and in that, in a way has been co opted by the land acknowledgement. Were you even here even hear the word land acknowledgement ceremony? We're gonna do a land acknowledgement ceremony. What is that? I don't know what that is. So I see it in the same way. As the classroom kind of being the de facto environment of language learning, now this idea of acknowledging each other when we meet the land acknowledgement is becoming the de facto way of doing that.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, yeah. So what? You triggered me, I got triggers that settle down. We attach the word ceremony to everything. Even things that are ceremonies. Yeah. You know, like, I was in a consultation meeting in my new position as tribal Historic Preservation officer for the group tribe of Indian drop it where a guy from another tribe and allowances name he said, Well, we should have a pipe ceremony for that. And I thought for like a groundbreaking Oh, okay. Yeah, they're gonna do like a groundbreaking on the structure.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, okay.

Aaron Brien:

And in my mind, I'm thinking like, man, their tribe must have a ceremony for the ground for groundbreaking.

Shandin Pete:

Right, it must be equated to something you're thinking maybe, maybe

Aaron Brien:

maybe 2000 years ago. 2000 years ago, my ancestor left dogear is his name. He fasted way up there, the the Oxbow, He fasted in the ox in those spirits, they came to him. Those gave him those ways. They said when when you are going to build a new structure structure. You do this you take a gold shovel, boy, you take that gold shovel and you you break the ground, but before you break the ground, you take your pipe and your point your pipe where you're gonna break the ground. You take your pipe, and you point at it you say to the ground you say today we're going to have a new bingo hall. From this point on. We're gonna have we're gonna have dish is going to be a new gas station. A lucky Leo's in the gas station. So it's twofold but you say he always to the ground. You have to say that that's that ceremonial way. Then you offer your pipe you point your pipe at whoever is funding this project. Could be so this is just the way for groundbreaking ceremony. And we smudge that that we take that sacred sweet sage and we smudge the gold shovel. You have no the way I was taught is you take facing east you take that shovel. They do a one and a two one a three and a four. Then you flip it like a bergerie ceremony came from left dog here. Yeah, fasted upon the highest peak of the ox.

Shandin Pete:

People are gonna think this is real. You need a puppet. You gotta get a puppet.

Aaron Brien:

That well we don't do video we don't do video so

Shandin Pete:

well. If we get enough patrons we will. One show a month.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, my accent there was like a blending of like, a couple of different tribal accents. But it then it kind of just molded into like a Canadian kind of a thing to do not attacking anyone tribe one. Oh,

Shandin Pete:

yeah. That's good that you varied it up, you know, so he can't be targeted? Well, you know, yeah. That's, um, that's something else. It is something else. I can't, I can't believe it. And then again, and then on the other hand, the argument is, well, you know, we're trying. But how hard are we trying?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. And oh, this is a fun for me. Okay. When people say well, we're trying we're trying, you know, we're trying Yeah. I think Ben, how do you how do you address this without sounding mean? Or?

Shandin Pete:

Well just this sound mean then I'll Paul I'll polish it for you. Sound mean and then also you're

Aaron Brien:

bad and you're gonna look?

Shandin Pete:

No no no good cop bad cop can your bad cop? Good Cop?

Aaron Brien:

Bad Cop? bad cop bad cop? Go you can do it. Okay, bad cop ruffle mocap you know what I'm sick and tired of? You know what I'm sick and tired of what I'm sick and tired of, of this. This this not mowing your lawns.

Shandin Pete:

That's not that No, no, it was not it. Just say what's on your mind? And I'm glad Conway.

Aaron Brien:

You know, people say they work hard and they and they. They try. We tried really hard. Don't buy it. Don't buy it. Yeah, I know. I know for a fact, once so much trying hard. You can tell when there's effort put into things. And I know for a fact when I've done something and someone says, Man, Aaron, you worked really hard at that. And deep down. I know, I really didn't work that hard at it. I didn't. Yeah. And sometimes things just flow right for you. Right. That's not saying that's not good or bad. But let's just quit saying we worked hard at something. Yeah, that we didn't work hard on, for example. Okay. I've heard people say this about us. Okay, I love the work. You guys doing it with the podcast? You guys are working hard. No, we're not. Yeah, I

Shandin Pete:

mean, we're just saying what we're just letting it was fun. Yeah, it is. Yeah. This

Aaron Brien:

is fun. We sight Nothing. Nothing. So if we're if people are visibly saying you guys are doing great work. Cool. But let's not let's know, knowing you know, who's doing hard work. Who's people who come home tired?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Okay. Again, nurses, nurses. Yeah. But

Aaron Brien:

now, let's not confuse valuable work with hard work. And there is overlap. But I think what you and I do is of value. But is it hard? There are there are times where research is hard. But for the most part, we figured out a way. And we figured out a way to talk and study about Indian people and feed our families doing it, man.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

we're the exception to the rule. So for the most part, what I do is fun. I enjoy it. Yeah. It there are some stresses to it. But it's good stress. I don't deliver with checks. There's people who bleed and sweat and cry at work. Yeah, I don't, man. I don't I love my job. And I'm very thankful for it. I'm thankful for this platform. And all that. It's cool. It's cool. Yeah, I'm not. I don't want to be mean to anybody. I don't want anyone to be mean to me. I just want to live my life.

Shandin Pete:

No, you're right. I'm doing well. You're right now this is the thing. You're right. You're right. And it's it's a matter of all the advice you were told. All the advice you still hear echoed. You just got to do the thing that you love. And, and you don't worry about make, yeah, a pile of money over it. You don't worry, you don't worry about that. And in a way, you know, it's I don't know if I'd say it's selfish. But it's the thing that that you feel like you need to do. And if you do that thing, it could come off as like, selfishness, I suppose. But it's not really in that way. You're just you have a burning desire to, to know something, or I don't know, some people to do to do work for other people. Everybody has a different personality and a different way of approaching that passion in their life. And, yeah, this just happens to be that. I suppose we get to do this little podcast, we don't make no money off of it. We don't. We're definitely not. That's not it's never the

Aaron Brien:

intent is just to find a platform to talk about cuz there's nothing there was nothing out there when we're, there's nothing out there that talk about this. So having said that, we've been talking now for an hour and 10 minutes, Matt.

Shandin Pete:

What are you saying? Yeah, well, I think we're reaching the end.

Aaron Brien:

That's That's a long time to talk. It is.

Shandin Pete:

I'm getting kind of a sore throat Getting little Froggy.

Aaron Brien:

So, as a disclaimer, though, I want everyone to know that everything I share on these podcasts, I might not even think this way that tomorrow. Yeah. These therapy sessions.

Shandin Pete:

Yes. It's just, it's just spitting the truth that you think and see it now. And then if you come across some evidence or something, somebody tells you you're cuckoo, you know, you get off and your wife is saying, Why are you saying those things? Oh, yeah, you're right. That was? Yeah, I guess not. Yeah, it's not scripted.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. No scripts. Well, I don't. Yeah, I don't. There's no script. I don't want people to say like, you know, Aaron contradicted himself. In Episode 34. He's, yeah, I probably contradict myself all the time. I'm married. Yeah, I used to contradict him. But yeah, these these podcasts were always designed to be like, well, this is how I feel. And a way to kind of like, take what you're thinking in your mind. Thinking in your mind lab. Yeah. And then throw it out. And then you realize even sometimes, while I'm talking, Oh, see, that's what I believe to appear. But once I heard it, it is kind of irrational, or Yeah, yes, sir. Or sometimes I'm like, yeah, that's how I feel. Man. That seems legit. So yeah, I don't want anyone to be like, you guys are crazy. Yeah, and I talked a lot on this podcast. Sorry. chagny.

Shandin Pete:

No, no, it's fine. It's fine. Whatever. Your do your show. Your show you're the star. So

Aaron Brien:

anyone's gonna do a land acknowledgement. Yeah, I am. I'm gonna drop that. Well, thanks for Oh, yeah, no. Knowledge meant, just

Shandin Pete:

tell me tell me your land acknowledgement.

Aaron Brien:

This is my advice to you. Okay.

Shandin Pete:

debrief.

Aaron Brien:

My land acknowledgement debrief is I'm skeptical. I might jump on board at some point. But at this moment, I want to see if this is going to last. Now, if you want to do land acknowledgments, go for it, do it. It's not it's it doesn't hurt anything. Yeah. My biggest question was, does it help anything? That's still up in the air? jury's still out. Secondly, is remember, before you do your nightline acknowledgement, why are you doing them? And who are you doing them for? Right, that's it.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, I agree. 100%. With all of that. Yeah, I think there's a lot to uncovered. There's a lot to learn from it. And I think by doing them and making mistakes, and hearing the feedback, and the smart aleck remarks and whatever that happens after you do it among the people in the communities, yeah, those are learning moments. Don't take it to heart Don't get offended. And happens everywhere. Find a way forward. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I think we're good, man. Good. Or good. Thanks. Okay.

Aaron Brien:

Thanks for listening. I feel good, man. I took Good, good, good. I'm good.

Shandin Pete:

I'm good. And you know what I want to say to people who are listening, if you know, take time to give us a give us some feedback on whatever platform you're listening to give us a rating. Give us a little comment that helps us helps us to, to know your thoughts and what what what you're getting out of the show, especially any Oh man,

Aaron Brien:

Centennial, Centennial, Centennial, Colorado, we need you. We want to know what what what shaky there is there? Is there a revolution happening? And we're not aware of it?

Shandin Pete:

It's probably like just the warehouse with a bunch of servers, you know, where things get routed through? That's probably nobody there. So hopefully, sending your

Aaron Brien:

topics, topics, topics, topics, give us ideas to talk about, even if things we don't know about yet. We'll find someone who does and we'll bring them on and we'll have a cool discussion. Right. And we got and, and, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, we got some folks lined up. We're gonna talk a little bit more about IR B's. We're going to talk more about this language culture camp deal. Hopefully I'm gonna reach out we got some, you know, I'm hoping to get some guests back on who just representatives of the community kind of like our last one, just some regular old folks chatterbox on Oh man,

Aaron Brien:

and the big one. The big one if we can make it work is Tony Isaacs, the founder Tony icings. of Indian house records who accorded he's probably the largest collection of Indian music in, in, in the US that's non academic or non federally funded. He's just a guy who recorded Indian music since the 70s. Right?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Or, I don't know

Aaron Brien:

some of the greatest recordings of Indian music ever Eagle whistle Lynette crow fair band rely that girl fair. Yeah, Big Bear. For Hall. Yeah. Man's Badlands is to go around and there's old agency climbing all the classics plastic standard. So if we can get them on here, and which I have reached out to him. Yeah wanted to listen to our podcast a little bit before he made an agreement to it. So hopefully hopefully soon we'll be talking to Tony Isaac's the legend, the myth, the man.

Shandin Pete:

All right. Thank you for joining us on this episode. And if you want to learn more about what we're up to go ahead and search Tribal Research Specialist in Twitter, Facebook, or YouTube, and check out our other sites. And if you want to contribute to the show, go ahead and look us up on Patreon. We would appreciate your donation

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