Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

#25 - Leadership and Virtue: Carryover from the past

• Aaron Brien, Shandin Pete • Season 1 • Episode 25

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In this new episode, the Tribal Research Specialist (TRS) team discuss some important details related to traditional leadership in Indian country. The episode starts with an old Salish War Dance Song from sang by Paul Finley in 1950.  The Salish name for the war dance is “Swenš ” and this was same name as that given to the Salish war dance that predated the more recent "Grass Dance". Paul Antoine noted that around 1873 a party of Salish that he was with, was on its way to the Plains where they up with some Crows and it was there that they first saw the grass dance. He also noted that previously the Crow had a war dance similar to the Salish.

The discussion focuses on the details of Crow chieftainship, including the merit and character needed to be considered to ascend to leadership. Challenged are the stereotypes and romantic ideas that we hold about the realities of our ancestors and how these pitfalls can propagate falsehoods or misunderstandings about past tribal life. The question posed is are we truly striving to live up to the ideals and values that our ancestors held?    

The second half of the episode starts with a Salish War "Snqaqaa" (Going to war) sang by Paul Finley 1950 near Arlee. When raiders are prepared to depart camp and night arrived, these men would go from teepee to teepee, singing one of these raiding songs. In the buffalo hunting days these songs were gained as gift from the supernatural and each man would have one or more of them. 

The discussion continues with an examination of morality and virtues in todays tribal communities. We continue to discuss if tribal life and the common notions of virtue hold true in Indian country. The considerations of virtues life honesty and bravery are pondered in this unfinished discussion. Important questions remain, such as "Does tribal ceremonial practice foster greater personal and tribal virtue?"

Join the discussion and  let us know your thoughts.

Listen in to Host Aaron Brien on the Extreme History Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dirt-on-past-indigenous-archaeology-crow-war-shields/id1532514949?i=1000505227864

Hosts: Aaron Brien, Shandin Pete

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Shandin Pete:

Hey, tuned in to this week's episode of Tribal Research Specialist, the podcast, a podcast about tribal people, our communities and discussions on research traditions, we aim to uncover the true meaning of research methodological approaches that are currently operating in tribal life, with implications for tribal communities, and avenues for knowledge production.

Unknown:

So that's

Shandin Pete:

that's what you call the Old Time War dance. The soul wench. Now, apparently, that was the old old name for the old old time war dance. Now what that was, I don't know, wasn't alive then. Not a lot of detail. saved from those time periods, I wouldn't tape recorders, you know, those kind of things. But apparently now, this is the history and we've talked about this before. But Paul Anton, he's the one who said, you know, around 1873, very specific, is a very specific date and year. He said he was with a party of sailfish boakes, on our way to the planes to probably run down some buffalo or what have you, and you run into some of your folks. And observed, yeah, observe them doing what they termed the grass dance. And apparently, what he said at this time was that, uh, that your folks, and my folks had a very similar war dance way Prior to the introduction of this grass dance way. Prior to so I guess it starts, it starts to make me wonder, or is the word introspect? I don't know what that is not to ask a psychologist, to introspect, if you will, or to, to think Well, what I wonder what other areas that we commonly assume as maybe quasi traditional, or from the old times, or that is old timey that may or may not be one of those things I wondered. And I thought maybe was a little more resilient than some of the dances was like the, the, like, the structure of leadership? I don't know. I don't know. But I'm just curious about that. Because, apparently, some of the notable things and these seem pretty resilient to me. from, you know, the, the mid 1800s up until the last of the chiefs, but, you know, a chief, a chieftain ship, I suppose. A lot of people think of them as hereditary, passing from father to son, son to quality grandson, etc, etc. However, that was not always the case, apparently, and someone could have refused to be achieved. They could say, nah, I'm not up to the job. I don't think I'm not good enough. I'm not admired by the people or I'm too poor, those kinds of things. So oftentimes, the hereditary nature of chieftainship could be could be stopped in that way and And apparently, and I don't know how true a lot of this stuff is, but apparently, it was pretty rare for hereditary chieftainship to pass through three generations before there was some turnover. Now, I don't know what is it what is your thoughts on on that tradition, from your area? Well, versus a total curveball.

Aaron Brien:

curveball? You curveball in me that. Oh, okay.

Shandin Pete:

Um, well, field it, man, you can get it.

Aaron Brien:

hips down. Elbows in hips down love on the ground. Love on the ground. Oh man, chin level not chin down, chin level. globe underground. My dad, he's so sick club on the ground, make a wall. So what I would say is that for the CRO, there's no real evidence to show that hereditary chief was ever a thing. But I mean, that's not to say it's not possible for someone son to be a chief. But that's not necessarily how things happen. So, yeah, at least in the historic time period of the Crow, you were defined or you are eligible to be achieved based on achievement. That that didn't make you a chief just because you accomplished those achievements. People had to follow it right. You know? Right, read it run. Yeah. chieftainship You know, you weren't like I'm running guys. People just follow you. Once you become a leader of a group, then you ascend up the ranks. But this is all predicated on three major things for one the accomplishment of a collection of war deeds. That's major to character. You know,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, that's important. Yeah. Hey, your your mic is rubbing around on your zipper. They're creating a lot of noise better. Getting some rubbish but not as bad. Rub it on your collar man. White Collar, rub it on your Polo?

Aaron Brien:

It's a Columbia. Costco fine. You know about them Costco finds.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, yeah, you're strolling you just want to get like a cheese and cracker snack or try the king salmon that came in with the, with the garlic. I

Aaron Brien:

was gonna say the garlic butter.

Shandin Pete:

And then you you walk across this table filled full of shirts.

Aaron Brien:

They're like $9 like, Colombian sweaters there.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, I even have all the same color.

Aaron Brien:

No, I don't know. I got a green one in the blue. not

Shandin Pete:

there yet.

Aaron Brien:

not there yet. I'm Eddie Bauer. Oh, you know, I'm kind of I'm kind of styling kind of a big.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. You kind of got the name brand. You got two different colors. Yeah. The fact that you even have a Costco card. That's a mark. Whoa, that could be a chieftainship quality.

Aaron Brien:

I think I think we're even like gold members or think or something. The other day, I

Shandin Pete:

wanted to get a free passport picture of reorders. I

Aaron Brien:

went into Costco a couple weeks ago and I bought a six pack of spam miscues like, what are you doing? So? I mean, it's it was cheap, you know? low sodium 20% or 30% less sodium.

Shandin Pete:

That's the one yeah. That's 30

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. And then you cut into the small slices. You put a little bit of cheese on them and just fry him up. Oh, you got I mean, then you toast some bread. Make a little spam cheese sandwich. If you were in the commodities, I grew up with commodities. It was called legend me. Oh, yeah. And I actually think luncheon meat tastes better than spam.

Shandin Pete:

I would agree. had more flavor.

Aaron Brien:

It had more flavor less sodium. But I used to love the commodity powdered eggs and the lunch and meat and mix it together.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. We'll only think about the lunch and meat. You know, it wasn't conveniently square like

Aaron Brien:

no it was um, can a silver Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, so did you that was all right. Oh,

Aaron Brien:

did you ever yes to color the commodity boxes the cereal boxes? No. No, I remember they're white.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah, I got through many boxes of cornflakes but not didn't color any of that. Maybe I did. I don't remember you probably. Anyway. So let's find my what is now let's get back to

Aaron Brien:

okay. Yeah. Yeah, what was I said accomplishment. Oh. Oh, so I would say more deeds character or deed, character and then spiritual power, I would say right. And I could be wrong. I know of no head. No band Chief, or head chief. Yeah, that was without spiritual power. Right? You know, even even even the least talked about chiefs in our history possess, yeah, you weren't going to ascend through the ranks without spiritual power. So the crows actually have a pretty sophisticated ranking system. So our military ranking system and our societal ranking system are the same pretty, you know, the first the first position is what we call a little toe. And that's Yeah, that's like a helper, like someone who just kind of helps out in and that's specific to to an age. So you're, you're anywhere from nine to 12 years old. And your goal first I heard of this, is to go to war with a war party, they might take two or three little toes with them, and they're, they kind of stoke the fire and gather, they will engage in battle. And that that age, I'm sure vary throughout time. But you know, it could be Yeah, anywhere nine to pro 14, you know. And then after that, you you ascended into just up to here, which means just the warrior, the ones who go to war, you know, so it's like more your proper right? Yeah, then you could become a scout. Cha.

Shandin Pete:

That's different than a warrior. I mean, is it? Is it a level up or the level?

Aaron Brien:

level up? So if you're, oh, by the time you're a warrior? Yeah, you should, at this point, have your own medicine now, you're no longer borrowing the spiritual power of somebody else. So in the old days, some award leader might say, you can use my medicine when you go into this, but eventually, you're going fast, or you know, it could be yours, even if it's given to you by somebody else, but it kind of has to become yours, you know? And then and then, and then you after that, you become an old man scout. chedis, aka, and the old man scout is the leader of the scouts. And then they always say, the leader, the world leader, but then I feel like the next. It's like, it's a lateral move, though. The old man Scout, and what they call the pipe carrier. Yeah, so the pipe carrier is even cooler, or cooler. And that's the one who carries the pipe. He's the boss. When you go to war. It's his. It's his war leaders pipe that's guiding you there. And that's a big deal, you know, and, and it was even a big deal to steal those pipes from the enemy. The word leaders pipe Oh, really? Yeah. Chief name Grable, his medicine song says, I'm going to steal the enemy's medicine pipe, which is pretty cool. And then after that, you become a band chief. So the three three bands are the crows, and you can become a band chief. And then in order to be what they call the owner of the camp, which is the leader of all three bands, you have to be one of these, like, so. In the last owner of the camp, meaning the last to be the chief of all the crew chiefs was a guy named sits in the middle of the land away cool. alijah. He died in about he was at the Fort Laramie treaty signing in 1851 and he died in roughly the 1870s I think of pneumonia. And but the last leader of the mountain crozes and died 1940 or 34, I think was chief Yeah, and so there wasn't it. I don't know of any other leaders now. There's kind of a spiritual ascendancy to because equivalent to the chiefs of the crow were what they call the larger rector's, the larger rector's own, the ceremonial lodge of the tobacco society. And those are still in existence.

Shandin Pete:

Those are they're not they're not the Chiefs as the one who's, you know, leaders of particular,

Aaron Brien:

of the Hallmark ceremonial way of the Crow, the thing that defines us, the leader, the leaders of those, the lodge directors there, they're paramount. They're like, the Chiefs chiefs would go to them for advice, especially if they were in, in the society, you know? Yeah. So those four deeds, though, those four main deeds that are needed to even be considered to be in the running is the capture of an enemy's weapon, the touching of an enemy without killing him, the lead to lead a successful war party, and then to cut a picketed horse.

Shandin Pete:

And if you did all those, then

Aaron Brien:

you are eligible, then you're eligible. Yeah. Doesn't mean you are no doesn't mean you are. And the last person you still have something, yeah, the last person to have accomplished on record to have accomplished those four things was Joe, medicine, Crow, and World War Two. He did all those during World. Yeah, he did all four of those things. Now, there's, people argue about that, because they'll say, Well, he had to have been a pipe carrier to lead a successful word Party, which he was not with. That's like tomatoes, potatoes. Getting technically, yeah, get real technical. And then on top of that, there was other deeds that one could collect, like what they call the deed of the day, which was the war leader, on that particular expedition expedition, would say, this is the deed, and he would proclaim something, the first one to run through the camp. We'll get the deed of the day. Then there was another one if you saved an enemy in battle, or saved a comrade in battle? Yeah. Yeah. Those demos, or main ones? Yeah, just like, you can say, like a sub code of deeds. Right. Right. So it got it got pretty complex since because then it revolves around war societies with just the foxes, the lump woods, the muddy hands and the big dogs and the crazy dogs, which was more of a vow. And there was all this other stuff, you know? Yeah, it attached itself to very complex war culture.

Shandin Pete:

Now, I don't, I don't suppose maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Probably very little of that. exists today. As far as who leads the the tribes, the tribe today?

Aaron Brien:

that true? Well? Yes and No, right. Um, yeah, I would say that that worst system for all PR purposes, right. But the value of deeds is still very high and needed. It's needed for ceremonies. In fact, when they say the So nowadays, nowadays, just like any tribe, if some misfortune comes to you, you might invite somebody to your home or something and say, Hey, can you pray for us? May might pray for you. And however, that matters, in the old days, when a misfortune would happen, you would call upon a veteran to tell awarded an award deed is a reversal of bad luck. Because he might say something like, I engaged the enemy. And I, I came, I returned untouched. Yeah, that's like a validation of some good luck happening to that individual. And so he's and then he would say, I'm going to give that good fortune to you. So that's, that's that, that still does happen to some degree. And that's actually where the tradition of once when a feather drops at a powwow and they'll say bring a veteran is supposed to so in the original grass dense ceremony, or the daytime den ceremony, or whatever tribe calls it, when an article fell off of your outfit that was deemed to be like what you put it on because it's ceremonial, your bustles, your, your dance regalia was part of the ceremony. So any misfortune that happens within the ceremony is kind of centered like well, maybe that shouldn't have happened. So they'll say, well, let's have someone who had seen the enemy, reverse that so they might come in and pick it up and say, you know, I touched My enemy and he didn't touch me back, and then they'll hit the drum, right? And everybody reverses. And then that goes into a little pile of things. And at the end of the dance a song a song, and that is returned to it's returned back to its its owner. But I'm I'm kind of getting off track here. But your question was more about, I guess, like, is there remnants of that left? Right? Yeah. And I would say, the war deeds, the using award deeds is still used and right. And there are things that are from the old war societies that are still in existence in the fox society songs, the lump words, and the crazy dog songs are still alive, but also what they call the Warriors homecoming, which is, basically, it's the sculpt dance in this thing called the Shoshone dance. We have the you could say, the daytime dance ceremony as part of that. And then I think the long dance, those still are in existence, although they're not as common as they used to be, even within my lifetime. They're not as common, but they do exist. They're still people who know how to conduct those ceremonies, you know? Right. Right. Right.

Shandin Pete:

But as far as Sorry, I know, I know. I mean, my current some I'm trying to examine what, you know, what is still, what is still existing and thriving today. Of course, a lot of it can be, but I'm wondering what, as far as like, so, you know, some, some tribes have business councils, tribal councils, some people have a chair person. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

I mean, we're pretty much a modern tribe was, our chairman is, what's alive is all the fringe stuff. So our chairman of still considered the Supreme Leader of the tribe, where like, where I would say, in other tribes, the Business Council almost seems like it's like this thing over here, where among the CRO, the chairman still is considered that, in fact, in crow people referred to him as a G char, you know, that Chief, and and then he has advisors, which is equivalent, bring your chief days, when the chief, he would surround himself with former retired war leaders and lodge directors. And then he would have his own spiritual kind of, this is my guy, my medicine men, you know? Yeah. I don't like to use that word. But he would. He would do that, you know. And then of course, he's, as long as his medicine is potent, that help? Yes. success of the tribe, you know?

Shandin Pete:

Right. So then, in general, you could say their, their influence is still pretty great. Probably not. Yeah. as influential as once. There's probably fractions who don't agree, etc. If you know what,

Aaron Brien:

yeah. Which which you could even argue that's a carryover from the old days, because in the old days, if you didn't want to follow that, Chief, you could still followed someone. You go and follow someone else, you know. Right, which people say like tribal politics involves a lot of factionalism. Which is that's the way it's always been. It's just that it seems dysfunctional. Because just counter to, we're supposed to respect the office now. Right. Right. The office of the presidency, the Office of the chairmanship, whatever that is, in the old days, if you wanted to follow this guy. Candidate a, you just followed him or her? Right.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. So it's kind of like this idea that did not kind of get stuck in people's heads. Yeah, that that there's a there's one, one large tribe with one large leader. But that's not necessarily true.

Aaron Brien:

I don't think that was the case for any tribe, at least in the Rockies in the plains. I don't think Yeah, they I don't even certain they didn't travel in these big groups, where like, is right, like the Sioux, where all the Sioux were together, or even all the sailors when you really start looking at like the bittered sailors, and how many groups there were in where they were living? Yeah, they're, they're pretty independent of each other. Right? Right. That's why I like when people say when they say, Well, I'm sailing, we traveled to the planes for buffalo. I don't even necessarily know if I believe that. I think they were just there. That's where they lived, right? And so when the reservation error comes in, and all these groups get placed together, they mold their narratives together. So then, so some, so then they'll say like, these stories become polished and they're say, when we travel out to the plains, well, that might be true for this group that came from from this this area. But three of the other groups, where are they just where they lived was the plates. They were just Plains Indians.

Shandin Pete:

Right? So it's like, some of the early estimates of population, you know, prior to the horse. You know, it's in the in the tune of like, 30,000 sailors, you know, yeah. So, so when you when you think, Oh, well, when we went to the planes, it's hard to picture 30,000 people traipsing over to the planes, you know, there's

Aaron Brien:

not another tribe on the planet that would attack a tribe of 30,000 people. There'd be none. So, yeah, yeah. When they say we pack the enemy cap 30,000 people, I don't care who you are. Unless you have cannons or like, that's why that's why one Sitting Bull one Sitting Bull had his camp on the Little Bighorn. That's why it's it was such a massive thing. Yeah, unheard of, to have that many people in one area. 30,000 people that's Helena, Montana. An entire city of Helena just walking together. It's just there'd be huge swaths of land just ripped apart. Yeah, try think in the winter, they got into bigger groups, you know, but for the most part, yeah, I think it was more like family groups scattered across the landscape. You kind of you stay in communication. And there might be groups of 30 to 40 to 50 people, and kind of a concentration. But for the most part, I hear stories all the time of someone say, me and my brother, and I'll say in these old stories, we got our horses and we rode to our neighbors, and their cat might have been 10 miles down the road. But they knew where they were downriver, and they'd go and stay there for a couple of weeks are, you know, I don't think it's anything like, what, what we've been taught?

Shandin Pete:

No, I don't think so. The biggest the biggest hunting party that you know, I kind of come across and certainly not complete, but a party have like 1000 people or so.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. And that's a combination of tribes. And like, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Yeah. A big party headed over. Yeah, you don't hear anything, are at least I haven't come across much of anything larger than, you know, between 11 and 1200. Folks, you know,

Aaron Brien:

yeah. And, and really, what I noticed is like people who are caught up in like numbers and timelines. Those are like mood points a lot of times in research, but there's better projects based around like lodge counts, and it's like, Okay, well, okay. We've established that there's a very, a fairly rough estimate of how many lodges and people are at this camp. Yeah, what? I mean, it's cool. It's cool information. Yeah. But for the most part, yeah. Okay. Well, what if you did prove there was 30,000 people at this village?

Shandin Pete:

Then what? Pretty crazy.

Aaron Brien:

I just,

Shandin Pete:

um, it's just that idea of, you know, putting some real reality into into what we think about from the past, you know, and it sneaks its way into a lot of things.

Aaron Brien:

It does. And like I said, the danger of this is that tribal people that we believe that stuff now. Yeah, yeah, you know,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, because we believe comes in Grand.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, like I've heard this Polish I've been I've lived in Flathead long enough now to I've heard this Polish narrative of when the Salish mu went to the plains and hunted Buffalo and, and it's so dogmatic and it's so cut and dry even, like, even like no other tribe smoked or meat the way we do our No, it's just like, why would you even that these are pointless, or these are pointless, you know? These are not, this is not like, oh, and I've even heard from CRO like, when when I said, Well, I really like smoked dry meat. And they're like, oh, like you're one of them. flatheads now, and then when I visit my grandma, she say, and she'll say, and she'll say her grandma's smoked meat. Yeah. Yeah. sales people. I'm sure there was some sales people that They just buy some meat once in a while. It's all said yes, no, it's like, well, let's just say we got the meat. Let's just hang the meat. You know?

Shandin Pete:

It's like you ain't got no whatever.

Aaron Brien:

Like, yeah, what is I don't understand this. So crow people are mountain people. Much like the veterans so this designation of Plains Indians and plateau Indians and it's not even a thing. So so like when we say Plains Indians, we're not the least I'm not referring to people who just live in the plains I'm referring to a lifestyle. Right? Which characteristic? Yeah, once I put the next person there, the shoni under the bitterest sailors, even the ponderay I would even put kidneys in there. I would put Sarge C's in there. It's it's a it's a lifestyle. Like if I dumped in 1700 if I grabbed a chrome man and dumped him in a sales camp, is he not gonna know what to do? Is it gonna be like,

Shandin Pete:

I can't eat that smoked meat. What do I do? Well not eat the smoked meat.

Aaron Brien:

Am I on Mars? Am I on Mars? Real similar, man. And it's um, I think we can get into real heavy differences is the logistics of ceremonial life. But for the most part, right? When they say all the Cairo was where the Lords of the plains Do y'all ever? Like was there a crown

Shandin Pete:

or a throne?

Aaron Brien:

Was there like a tribe in the plains that just couldn't do it? They were like, We just can't get these horses figured out. They're all pretty even. I'm sure there are some that that at least to white folk, they stood out in a certain way. And then of course, within tribes, like some some, for some tribes, I think the horse always kind of stayed utilitarian. I think there was some tribes that just kind of viewed them as a source. And there's definitely some tribes that viewed them as like a spiritual being. But for the most part, I think every one of those were horsemen. They were horsemen.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. I mean, he kind of had to be,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, yeah. It's just like, it's like during World War One, when they said there's people riding horses. I'm like, yeah, every guy could ride a horse. In 18 1314. Every able bodied male could ride a horse. I guarantee you,

Shandin Pete:

right, right. Yeah, but But sir, but certain tribes were better than others, right?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, yeah, there. The comment fired up because, um, anyway, and let's just keep talking about well, you want to talk about um,

Shandin Pete:

well, my name is it is. My next thought is let's listen to this next song. And then I'll let the next thought out. Hey, hey, hey. Hey. Hey. That's Paul. fiddly again, nice singing some of the another of the old time songs kind of what you had referred to as in in a crow way, you know, when they're sending the scouts out. And I'm sure you guys had a familiar familiar way of doing that. But this they sing the songs around the camp. We've talked about it before, but this is one of the I guess one of the older songs, I'm sure they all kind of are in this genre. But it so then again, you know, certain ones were selected. Like you said some of the the younger, the younger folks, you know, on nine to 12 just preparing to go on a battle same way. Here in this region, you know that a few of the younger ones, the novice warriors would travel along, and they'd be the water fetchers, just like you said, you know, or they erected their little war lodge wherever they were going to sleep, those kind of things. But this this song would send, send those warriors out onto their, onto their battles. But, um, you know, one of the important things I think, in this whole Well, in this conversation that we had previous, and this one now, when we're speaking about war, we have to also consider, you know, what, what, what, what was war? And how did it define leadership? And importantly, what is the, I guess, the virtues of war, you know, and how the virtues of war translate into the next step, especially for the the mail, you know, in their in their leadership roles. But so, when are we talking about virtues, you know, we can think of things such as bravery or honesty. Some of the things that the good chief would require, you know, being hospitable, generous, having some degree of influence through their, I guess, the way they speak. And, and again, like you said, their spiritual power, all those things kind of played into this. This, I guess this, I don't know what you call it, like a, like a complete expression of virtue. So what my question is, and my next thought on that is, how much of that that those qualities or those virtues, are we do we still hold strongly? And how much of that do we Or have we, I guess, adopted more of a mainstream approach, such as the idea of honesty. And I bring that up because, uh, you know, the boarding school kind of did a number on a lot of our our folks. And, you know, they were, they were made to really embrace the idea of being dishonest so that they could either avoid getting in trouble, those kinds of things. But I guess when you speak about the a code of morality, what were some of the more important virtues that were held among the tribes? That was kind of my next thought. There's some

Aaron Brien:

I mean, yeah, yeah, good. But I also think that this is where it gets really different from like a euro, Euro American concept of moral in person and ethic and the terms morality, the same like ethic. And in both societies. I, I actually think that tribal people have adopted do because of the boarding school and the church and other efforts, we've adopted this form of American popular culture, and how we how we look at an individual is this is if we sponsored this is if we had a sponsor, this is where our commercial would be.

Shandin Pete:

Pringles chips, they're the luckiest law firm couplet has brought Crowley and a sleek,

Aaron Brien:

crawly flaking in a fender bender. Yeah, they've been in a Fender were you wrongfully terminated?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. adopted the adoption of mainstream qualities.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, with this is I mean, which nobody even does that the truth is, is that standard was created in the very country we live in, does not adhere to it at all. This country was not founded on those qualities of honesty and the whole 10 commandments thing. And like, morality and ethic what what I think tribal, viewed the most important, was more of a reciprocal relationship with with morality and with success and different things, just those around you. Are they healthy? Are they closed? Are they fed, and are they finding success? And if you have a household people and all of them are in that position, in some One might look at you and say, Well, he clearly is making the right decisions. Because around him success is happening. Now, right? So this idea of good and bad, at least for the CRO, historically, or traditionally, we did have the good and bad evil versus triune being what it is, we're made up of both of them. And then it's our job to kind of deal with this, this this thing within us. And if I take a step in the right direction, and then good comes from that, then I take another step in that same direction. Now, the moment I might hit something, I might give it a few efforts. And if that doesn't happen, then clearly something is telling me to take a step in a different direction. And, and right, I think I mean, that's a really condensed version of what I'm trying to say. But But I think, nowadays, Native communities, and I'm guilty of this, too, will judge it individual that will say, Well, he, he's done this. And it's like, Wow, that's really not I think how it wasn't in the past. Because for one, we're basing wrongdoing on a standard that's set by a whole different way of thinking, where it's like, what his his wife is healthy, and it's just nice, or vice versa. Right now, the wife is seen as successful, because our kids look good, her home looks good. And then they see her at ceremonies, and they're like, Oh, she was chosen to bring this water in or whatever. That's all like, because of decision making. And just, you know, that's why I say like, I don't think native people had goals, but we had direction. If that, if that makes sense. Like I don't think it's very European or very American to be like, my goals are this is what I want to become. It's a no brainer for people to say, to be like, well, I want to become a badass warrior. I want to become a badass, whatever ceremonial leader that that was the goals of Native people, you know? So we don't need to say like, well, this, by this year, I'm going to do this not like that at all. Where I see it. Where see it's common is in jujitsu, like training, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. And much like probably wrestling. Your Russian is on you. It's not like, Oh, you, Shawn Dean, you learned a spa, a single leg, an ankle pick? And a back take their four year that's the next round, that don't know, it's how are you proficient? Are you proficient in those? And that's also mean, yeah, your brother can get there quicker. You know, you can become more proficient, his technique is tighter. And he's he's, he finds more success. That doesn't mean you're not there. But maybe to the standard that we hold. Now everybody else is here. And they're all saying like, Shawn Dean sucks. When it's like that, that's not even like a thing. Like, I don't even think people thought that they really, you know, like, it was more like, Well, once you get here, then you're there, then it's like, whatever. It's not even a thing you know. So I kind of feel like that's how our society work. This is everyone had the same goal was to become a black belt, like in jujitsu, you want to be a black belt. But you don't say I want to be a black belt, you just say I'm going to learn these techniques, and then become a blue belt number, learn these techniques and become a purple belt or be proficient in these things. So I think our society was like, yeah, everyone wants to be a black belt. We don't need to, we don't need to set the standard to get there. It's different than like, Am I making any sense?

Shandin Pete:

It may be just, and we'll see if it clears up. No, no, I get it.

Aaron Brien:

I get it. I get it. For the audience. Okay,

Shandin Pete:

well, well, you know, so we can operate off of like a binary of good and bad, you know, and put put, put things in a good column and good things in a bad column. But it's really it's very simplified, but it helps describe things I guess, in a way, but really, the understanding, and maybe other tribes share the same belief, but there really is, like you said that the lines are very blurred between good and bad and it's more the action of a person and how they take or how they use something in the way in which they use it. It's similar to you know, I guess how you how you would treat a person you know, if you're, if you're I guess a brave person, you could you could be brave and go do bad things, you know, just indiscriminately kill people with your bravery. Or you could use your bravery to, to do good things and defend your defend your people in some way. So the virtue of bravery then can land in either a good or bad category, but it's still brave. Either way, look at it.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. This is an interesting mapic. And, yeah, and maybe we should dedicate like a whole podcast to this.

Shandin Pete:

I think. Because there are there are other there are other virtues that that are not like that. Like honesty, you know, honesty? I think now, this, let me contemplate that for a second. There's no bad way to be honest. Really. I mean, you could be honest and hurt people's feelings, I guess be over honest, you know?

Aaron Brien:

Well, honesty, don't get confused with the need to say something. So I've heard people write and I'm guilty of this. This is because I used to think this while I'm just being honest. So you'd say something? Yeah, well, that doesn't mean you have to talk. Honestly. See, say what's on your mind, you know, like,

Shandin Pete:

right, right?

Aaron Brien:

Who cares? Who cares?

Shandin Pete:

I guess in that way, too. You know, honesty is one of those things. It's a virtue that can be either good or bad. You can be overly honest in the way that you become, you know, a gab, you know, you're just gabbing about everything you see and hear and hear all you're being honest. That's what I heard. Well, they're not

Aaron Brien:

honest. opinion and honesty, I think are two different things. Right? Right. If someone said, Aaron, did you steal that horse? Yes or No, that's a yes or no. And I think that's Yeah, that's what you're talking about, where there's no like, right or wrong way? To be honest. You're just honest. Now to say. Now, you could argue you could say like, air Aaron, do you want to steal that horse? I said, wow. Yeah. No. I mean, I do, but I don't. I'm telling you the truth. But it's not anything. I'm not telling you anything. It's an honest opinion. Yeah. And I think what people are confusing today, especially young people is honest, opinions are truth. Right. And they're not. Right, right. You know, right. Right. 14 difference there. There's a big difference there. And I think nowadays, if you're from that 16 to 23 age, they've been groomed to kind of believe that how they feel is valid. And

Shandin Pete:

what I mean, I mean, I mean, it is

Aaron Brien:

valid it is but I guess should it be adhered to how you feel? That that's a different thing. Right? That's a whole different. Yeah. Like when people say, what is my truth? Well, it. That's probably right, you're right. I can't tell you what your truth is. But what I can say, Is it me, to me? You know, like, it means what it means, you know? And that's, that's something I've struggled with, in my own life was thinking, because I said it, it should it's valid, it should be it should be, it should, it should be taken as like, what Aaron's saying this, this is what he feels. No, I've learned, that's not the way the world works. My truth could be a lie to you. Right, and my rights end where yours begins. So it's not. It's not this, this idea of interpretation of honesty and dishonesty, it gets starts to get real convoluted, because we're so ingrained with the Christian sense of honesty, and morality. Yeah, traditional people. Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

no, you're right. It's so yeah, that leads me to this this quest that I've been on. And I think that a lot of these podcasts where we're trying to edge toward is, you know, what, what is the? How do we how do we get a collective sense of reality? So then the truth is, when somebody speaks it, there's no question, you know, that we will all collectively believe in, and I don't know if that plays into this idea of individuality or individualism in the United States, where, like you said, My feelings are valid, no matter what your feelings are, you know, it seems like and again, I don't know, I don't know. And I don't want to romanticize or, you know, dignify the past, but it seemed like it seemed like there was this collective truth, this understanding and it seemed to be embodied in a way and how people trusted their leadership in a way, but then again, you know, then again, we're, I may be romanticizing that thought, because you can disagree with your leadership. But you just got to go a different way a different route with a different band, I guess, you know, and I see that happening today, just like we talked about earlier. So I don't know, I don't know if I'm on the right track on it. I don't hear impossible.

Aaron Brien:

I don't even know. I said today. To me, to me, this podcast, like Tribal Research Specialist is like the think tank for like, I don't, I don't know a lot, you know, but I had a lot of thoughts and a lot of like, is this valid? So if someone's listening to this and say, no air, and you're completely wrong about that email list, tell me because I want to know, I'm all about learning. Yeah. And, and I could be way off base. But yeah, but we want you on the podcast. We want you on the pod. Yes. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

If you're out there listening and say, What a bunch of baloney. Speaking

Aaron Brien:

of that, we should we should mic on soon. Love rhomboids.

Shandin Pete:

All right. Let's do as repeat. All right. Let's do a little more this. Yeah, yeah, no, I gotcha.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, the tribal thing kind of vibe is different. vibes different. Let's have him on. But what I would say is that you should dedicate a whole episode to just this idea of morality. And these these virtues. In the crow story of the of the Big Dipper, the seven bighorn sheep, they saved this little boy. And because they give him the name, big metal, he was thrown off of a cliff by his stepfather. But yeah, each of those bighorn sheep, give him a gift. And the last one gives him a name. So so there's this idea of like saying, This is what we want for you, or this is what you have. Some of them are tangible gifts, like the ability to run fast, or to have surefootedness in the mountains. But then several of them give him like, these virtues, which is like honesty. Oh, the ability to say, to be steadfast, right, like, deliberate in your movements, and like how you speak and you say what you mean, like they're giving him these things? So I would have to explore that story more to really understand at least a traditional sense of what these virtues are. Because essentially, that's what we're talking about is individual virtues. And what's an individual virtue versus a tribal one?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah, that's an important one. That's an important one. And I've been I've been going down this this road for a good solid 10 to 12 years trying to find examples in the historical narrative in oral history and the creation stories to hone in on what might have been some of the important virtues. And I think that it's for the most part, it seems common across, across, I guess, just the human spectrum, you know, of things. I don't think Indians were any different than any other group of people. You know, as far as talking about the the older tribal societies or tribal lives. But they're just expressed differently in, in different instances, and this idea of individualized truths becomes it becomes problematic. And I don't know where that comes in. I don't know what society that comes in, in from when we can point the fingers at many different groups. But I'm less interested in that and more interested in saying, Okay, what what is the, what are the important virtues that held us together as a as a tribal group, or tribal bands, to have us all believe in a fairly common set of things? And we lost? We lost some of that, and how can we get that back? If we can identify those? Maybe there's a pathway back? I don't know. I just that's just that's just my wish. And on my wish.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. And the problem there, though, is virtue is tied so closely to Christianity. That and I'm not saying Christianity is bad. What I'm saying is that it's foreign. The concept yet foreign. So and I'm sure you could look through the Bible and find things you're saying, well, this is exactly our tribal people think that's fine. There's a lot of overlap and a lot of things that I'm not saying anything negative. What I'm saying is, if you're trying to find the authentic tribal form of virtues, you have to separate yourself from the church or separate your culture from the church. The problem there is that some tribes have been dealing well like here like flatheads been dealing with this since 18. 30 stuck delay 1830. So, yeah, that's quite a long time to try to like it is to rip that organism away from each other. right to say, well, what's there? Because then people are gonna, if you ask about virtues, they're gonna tie it directly, even unknowingly to the Judeo Christian form of virtue. I think the word itself even as a Christian word. Yeah. I think you're right. Can you have negative virtues?

Shandin Pete:

You know, what? Yeah, I mean, like I said, a virtue can go either way. It just depends on the end product. You know, like, if you think of bravery as a virtue, it can be used good or bad. But I don't know. I did a lot of reading on this a few years back, it's a little a little gray in my head. So I think I think if we did return within talk about this, specifically, I can revisit my notes on that and figure that out. Because I seem to think all virtues have a have a like this, like a characteristic that's both good and bad.

Aaron Brien:

Right. So I have a question for you that, yeah, I cut you off there. And our listeners are gonna be like, man, Aaron chatty, this?

Shandin Pete:

What was he going to say?

Aaron Brien:

what's he gonna say? were you gonna say that? We'll never know. Oh, quick talkin,

Shandin Pete:

what? Is it? Finished? You did it already?

Aaron Brien:

I'm gonna kind of want to know, um, put a challenge out there a little bit? Let's do it. Can you do? Can you understand your own tribes virtue? And qualities? The moralities of your tribe? Without being a practitioner of ceremony?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. What's your thoughts? I would say? I would say you could, I would, I would guess that you would, you would have needed some sort of guide to gain that, that particular virtue in a way and I think the pathway to that is many, it's not necessarily engaging in ceremonial life, I think you can get it in other ways. But I think the the importance of understanding your own history and your own traditions, in in the context of that virtue, would be stronger if it came from, I guess, a ceremonial or practitioner practitioners way of arriving to that. But I think the idea of, maybe I'm wrong, because now I'm thinking back to our discussion about honesty. Oh, I don't know. But this is what I was gonna say. So there's a there's like a maximum, or like a breakthrough where, where a virtue becomes ideal or like, that's, that's the, that's where I want it to be. So I'm, I'm not so truthful. I'm just a gab, you know, and I'm, I'm a CAD walking around saying all my opinions as truth or everything I see I'm repeating it, you know, that that guy's overweight, that kids too noisy, you know, I'm, I'm maximizing my honesty, to the point where it's annoying. Or I'm, I'm, I'm, I hold my honesty in so much that it becomes a fault where i'm not i what i do say is honest, but I don't say it enough. So then I'm reserving a lot of that and not imparting that honesty out where it needs to be. So there's some sort of maximum in that where, where you're, you're not saying too much, but you're not saying too little. So that idea of a virtue can can swing between good and bad. I think. I think that's just my thought.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. I think yeah, if you think of it

Shandin Pete:

if you think of another one, like bravery, I mean, there's a big difference between bravery and courage. Right. Thanks, stupidity. bravery. Yeah, bravery. Is this You, you, you're without fear. And sometimes you need fear, to guide your decision making. So bravery is not always the virtue you need. Sometimes you need instead you need courage. So you have fear, but you're going to do that action anyway.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, I think I think that's the difference. One of the differences of tribal people, warriors. They say, well, they're brave. Well, I do think they were fearful. But I also think that's why they did it. I think they'd say, Well, I'm gonna do things that are scary. I want to collect data. I want people to say, hey, Aaron's medicine is this or Shawn Dean's like this? Because he tested himself if you were just an idiot, be like, well, he's done. He doesn't he doesn't know he just runs in there. You know what I know he doesn't want to do it, but he's gonna do it. And I think that's why those standards are set to be things That word that brought fear. And I don't I think tribal people have adopted this especially tribal men. we've adopted this. This like a machismo, which I don't think existed before. I think it was more. It was more I think they were men and they were the hardiest of men. But I also think they were like, very in tune with like, well, I don't feel that right about this, you know, you had to be kind of had the sense of like, in you had a strong sense of yourself. You had to understand like a good day versus a bad day and night. It's much like like boxers and MMA fighters and people in combat sports, I think, understand that where like, the difference between courage and bravery, you know?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's a, there's definitely a difference in I think it needs to be explored a little more. And I definitely don't have the answers. I have a lot of narratives from the literature and from the history here isn't instances of virtues in practice, and kind of their their origins or where they come from. And I also have a lot of narratives of the contrary, where, you know, folks weren't so and that's more more recent, where people are definitely not virtuous. But now, it's just I have this job of tying this all together, to where people kind of understand the benefit of it. But then, like you said, importantly, how do you tie it into into practice? Because you can read about it. You can you can list it, categorize it, but if it's not a practice, then what's what good is it is just the history book, you know, at that point,

Unknown:

so that's, that's, I don't know.

Aaron Brien:

I just burned my tongue. No, man, it's a tough one. It's a tough one. Maybe it gets in Episode Two, because we've talked for a half hour about it. Yeah. We need to we need to hear from our audience.

Shandin Pete:

What do we do? And I think we've I think we've exhausted what we know about it. At this point,

Aaron Brien:

yeah. Cuz I'm not a psychologist. I'm not. Yeah, I think so.

Shandin Pete:

What else? What else,

Unknown:

aren't you?

Shandin Pete:

Not a postman?

Aaron Brien:

Not a postman, at firefighters, my teachers. You know, one of the regrets one of the I have two regrets in life. Well, I have like 15 to 30 regrets. You know, when you hear people say, no regrets that it is such a sham when people say that, like I have no regrets. I have a lot of regrets, like a lot. It's very right on the spectrum of how impactful they are. But I for sure have a lot of regrets in life. I regret not taking college seriously earlier in life. I regret the time I turned down a job and that could have led this you know, but yeah, I regret I wanted to be a structure firefighter. I never pursued it.

Shandin Pete:

That's that's a serious regret.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. Like I always wanted to do was you're young, you're young man. Follow your dreams. I will. Maybe I will. Always, you know, there's

Shandin Pete:

a volunteer fire department. You just got to show up when that siren rings and

Aaron Brien:

when when? You know, when I was a kid, there was a movie that came out called backdraft. Yeah. Do you remember that movie?

Shandin Pete:

I do. Michael Douglas. Was it Michael Douglas and thanks. So.

Aaron Brien:

Kim guy. The guy from all What's his name? Yeah. From

Shandin Pete:

the apartments with with all the cameras in it. And you spying on everybody? Yeah, no.

Aaron Brien:

No. No, I think it was. Was it? No, no, no, no, no, I don't know. Oh, Big Trouble in Little China. What's that guy's main actor?

Shandin Pete:

That's not Michael Douglas. Oh, no, that's not Mike. No. Michael Douglas.

Aaron Brien:

No. That's

Shandin Pete:

what is his name? Kurt Russell. Kurt Russell.

Aaron Brien:

Russell. Yeah, he's on there. So that Russell? Yeah. Be a firefighter after that.

Shandin Pete:

After watching elden was the young guy. Yeah. But you want to be a firefighter after you watch that movie?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

firefighter young. Not just any old fire. biter structure.

Aaron Brien:

No like, yeah, I wanted to be a structure firefighter. I wanted to like the red fire truck. And like, I was just talking to misty about this. Like, yeah, a couple of days ago, I was like, you remember that movie back, Jeff. And I want to be a firefighter and we start talking about firefighting.

Shandin Pete:

I don't know either. That's interesting, interesting regret. Thanks for sharing that. Well, it's my truth. Nobody could tell me any difference. Let's, let's cut her off there. All right. And then we'll show

Aaron Brien:

though, show ideas if people actually got an idea for a topic they want to hear, discuss or an idea for a guest, Steven. Yeah, hit us

Shandin Pete:

up where we're getting back. Hit us up. We're back on it. We're back on the podcast trail. This is gonna kick us back off.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. Oh, and I was a guest. That was a guest on the ministry podcast couple weeks ago. So it's on Spotify. You guys want to listen to it or go follow or go search out download? The extreme history podcast? I think it's called something in the dirt life in the dirt or down in the dirt or something like that. It's, but it's check it out. You just look up the extreme head History Project. It comes up. So

Shandin Pete:

go for Google extreme History Project.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, it's on Spotify. Check him out. I seen it. Yeah. And it's on all where you get your podcast.

Shandin Pete:

I'll put the link in. We'll put the link in on the show. People can check it.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, we'll put the link in the show notes. Dude, guys, check it out.

Shandin Pete:

All right. Well, we're out then we're out. See down the road. All right. Thank you for joining us on this episode. And if you want to learn more about what we're up to go ahead and search Tribal Research Specialist in Twitter, Facebook, or YouTube, and check out our other sites. And if you want to contribute to the show, go ahead and look us up on Patreon. We would appreciate your donation

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Aaron Brien

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Shandin Pete

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