Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast
Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast tackle real issues related to research by Tribal people in their communities. The show is hosted by Dr. Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné) and Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke). Dr. Pete is from the Flathead Indian Reservation in Arlee, Montana. He completed a M.S. in Geology and an Ed.D. in Curriculum and Instruction at the University of Montana. Brien resides in Hardin, MT and the Crow Indian Reservation. He completed his M.A. in Anthropology at the University of Montana. The show includes discussions on matters important in Indian Country, including reclaiming research traditions, highlighting Tribal values and bringing to the forefront issue and current state of affairs in Tribal communities. We aim to uncover the meaning of research methodological approaches that are currently operating in Tribal lifeways with implication for Tribal communities and avenues for knowledge production.
Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast
#16 - Indigenous Scholars: Making Our Education Work for Tribal Communities - Guest: Lydia Jennings
In the episode, the IRC team speaks with Lydia Jennings (Pascua Yaqui and Huichol). Lydia is doctoral candidate in the Department of Environmental Sciences, with a minor in American Indian Policy at the University of Arizona (UA). Her research interests are in environmental remediation, Indigenous science, mining policy, and environmental data ownership by tribal nations.
Lydia’s dissertation research focuses on the identification and characterization of microbial indicators as tools to evaluate mine waste reclamation, while her minor research focuses on the laws around mining on federal lands to which tribes have ancestral claims. Lydia’s research with the UA's Native Nations Institute is focused on how scientists and researchers can empower Indigenous data governance practices to create more equitable science practices.
The episode begins with Sophie Moise (Salish) and Mary Kiser (Salish) singing a Snyulmn that was sung as the women prepare for the Syulm. The Syulm takes place to remark victory in battle. The women prepared themselves in three teepees of the camp where the men helped them. The women will dress themselves in the war shirts and headdresses of their husbands, uncles, or sons.
Lydia and the IRC Team continue by discussing the challenges that Indigenous scholars face navigating Western education and how we can put our education to use in our Tribal communities that is purposeful and makes sense in our worldview. The IRC team asks the question: What is the pathway to knowledge that facilitates and promotes diverse and unique Indigenous contributions?
The second half episode begins with Jerome and Agnes Vanderburg (Salish) sing another Snyulmn that is used to escort the women to the center of camp for the Syulm. This song was sung by both men and women in going to the center of the camp circle where the dance was held.
Lydia and the IRC Team continue by imagining what the future of education would be to help future Indigenous scholars as they navigate Western academics.
Have answers? Suggestions? Agree? Disagree? Join the conversation at one of our social media sites. Your input is valuable to advance our understanding.
Guest: Lydia Jennings
Learn more:
https://www.willrunforsoil.com/about-us.html
https://www.nativesoilnerd.com/
http://nni.arizona.edu/people/staff/lydia-jennings
https://environmentalscience.cals.arizona.edu/person/lydia-jennings
Hosts: Kamiah Dumontier, Kisha Gurule, Salena Hill, Serra Hoagland, Shandin Pete, Brenda Shepard
Website http://irc.skc.edu
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Welcome to podcast IRC conversations with indigenous scholars to advance understandings and gain new knowledge hosted by the indigenous Research Center at Salish kootenai College. Okay, so that was a clip of Sophie movies and Mary Kaiser. And what they're singing there's called the sin human. And it was one of many songs that would be sung during the, what we call the so you'd love them. And during this, so you'd love them right at the beginning of the one, the dance was called for the the men would go around and sing, sing on another particular song that would announce to the camp that this seedling was going to take place. And then at that time, the women would start preparing for the seed limb, they would put on the man's their either their husband or their son, or maybe their uncle's war shirt, maybe their their headdress. And then the men would start singing this particular song that you just heard. And the women would start proceeding to the the teepees that were pre determined. Sometime they were the tip of a man who was noted for his face painting skills or the color that he used. And so the women would oftentimes they'd race to the particular tip of the man who was maybe noted for having the best kind of paint or the best pattern of painting of the faces. And the women would would be getting they're getting their, their robes on that depicted the battle that their relative was in, and they'd proceed to these teepees to get ready and prepare for the full season, which would happen after, after this. After this song of preparation was over. And this song was recorded in 1950. And it was one of one of few songs that really remain that our, our marking this time of preparation, there's probably one or two others that mark this time of preparation. But I thought this was kind of a fitting, maybe a fitting song to start out this conversation with our guests we have today. Because, you know, paint paint comes from, from a particular part of the earth, the the soil that holds a holds a color. And those colors are very important to to a number of individuals, not only in the past, but today because they mark a certain type of spiritual power that a person might have, they might have been granted a vision or, or a gift from their sacrifice sacrifices, telling them that they, you know, they can use a certain type of, or certain color of paint, and a particular pattern on how to paint themselves in that way. But um, in the old days, I guess there was a, there was a number of wars that would occur over a particular source of this paint. So in some place in Montana here near Wolf Creek, it's called there's a there's a cave and that held the yellow paint. So it was just a really fine clay that had to had the yellow color. And oftentimes, the Salish people would meet up with maybe some black beads or crows, and they'd have a battle to obtain that paint. So that soil which had the yellow color would oftentimes be an indication of a person's bravery if you seen him wearing yellow, they'd be noted as being a very brave person. But I wanted to kind of start the start this out by mentioning that but also wanted to kind of give Lydia Dr. Jennings here a chance to introduce herself, and kind of let us know the work that she does. And then we can launch into some discussion about that. So welcome, welcome to the podcast. Glad you took the time out. Let us know who you are and what you do.
Lydia Jennings :So last session, Eva and Oppo Lydia, and I'm Lydia. I'm a member of the pascua Yaqui tribe. And then also the we've told nations so possible jockeys down in southern Arizona and Mexico, and then that was trawler kind of Western Mexico area. And I actually grew up in New Mexico and table lands, which is where I'm at right now visiting my family and coming to you for this podcast. And I am a PhD candidate. I haven't quite finished yet. COVID sorry, things back. No, it's all good. But you know, COVID is having its impacts in many different ways. And it kind of set me back a little bit. Um, so hopefully in a couple of months, we can say that,
Kisha Gurule :Oh, good. Yeah.
Lydia Jennings :I'm a soil microbiologist, I study Mining Reclamation, in southern Arizona, on the thumb nation. And then my minor is an American Indian policy. And so also looking at the policy around mining on what are now public lands, ceded lands of indigenous peoples. And so I'm working on a case study looking at the Santa Rita mountain range, that is been an area proposed for some mining activity. So kind of looking at looking at mining the policy side, but also looking at it from this soil science side and microbiology side of how do we pair these ecosystems? And also, how do we prevent these ecosystems from being impacted. And I love that you started with soil, because I think, you know, that's something that has really caught my eye. And you talked about the art, that artistic component of in this spiritual component of it. And that's something that's definitely missing. In my own scholarship, I think when we trained when most education programs, train students, they tend to think about soil as something that can be produced, and that you tend to think about it from food, food sovereignty topics. But also, I think it misses us first really big step, that soil in itself is so beautiful. And just like we, as indigenous people have gone around different parts of the country. And we're in our own our own communities, looking for different plants that have certain medicinal purposes, we'll sort of soil there's a lot of as I've been like, I saw I use Instagram, and I use social media a lot to talk about soils and, and help people think about it. Because I think when we talk about conservation, soil is kind of the ugly stepchild, like no one thinks about serving plants poor. So you think like having plants? Yeah, it's like, give us a map, because that's the basis of everything else, right. But people have got conserving plants or considering certain animal species, which are important. But all those are dependent on soil and soils as important filtration level. And so I think when we talk, what I hope to bring into the soil science discipline, I think is more talking about it from this place of appreciation that our indigenous peoples have always had. And when I've talked with and shared with that on on social media, it's amazing how many indigenous people will be like, Oh, yeah, our people use it for these ceremonial purposes, you know, and like, sometimes we'll go feel comfortable to go more in detail. They're like, I'm so glad I can talk to you about this. And like you understand, like coming of age ceremony or medicine men, but I would never feel comfortable sharing another way. And I think it just really highlights how important it is that we have indigenous researchers in all of these different areas to kind of help our own community members think about these passions that are these these aspects of our community that are so important that they haven't always thought about in this context, because of how typical research is framed around it. So I just want to start off with that. Sorry.
Shandin Pete :Yeah, no, that's, that is, you know, I'm just, I'm, just to throw in something real quick here. I know, you had a post on your Instagram one time about these little soil kits that were of different colors, you know, and that you could use them for paints. And I thought that was Yeah, cool. Wow, it is neat.
Lydia Jennings :Yeah. So as you know, shining, like I'm also really passionate trail runner. And part of that is because I get to go around to different landscapes. And then you see all these amazing geologic formations. And you know, geology is the parent material soils, right. It's the parent of soils. And so yeah, I love going out and seeing these formations, but then also, if I can collect soils from those places, and when I do outreach with students, I can have, we can make paints out of these places, these oils that I've collected from my runs, and I can tell stories, but like I got this in this place. This is why it's important. And the other part that I really liked doing is also looking at the names and looking at this the names of the soil series. And so like right now I'm in I'm in New Mexico and I went running into Gallus do a basin, which is again like terroir area and just collecting a couple of soils and then looking at them looking at their names and one of them was called the Kubler Ross oil series with Thought that oh means like sucking, or sucks our weapon. It's a name for like a soil series that has been really weathered down, but it has this bright yellow color. Another one is the Zia, it's this bright red soil and susiya soil series. And so just like connecting the name of the soils, the land bases and how they're created, I think is so beautiful, but also to tell students about these stories with soils and how you obtain them. And for them to not only learn about this soil soils and how they're, how they're created, but then also to visually touch them and feel the difference, I think is just so powerful and engaging people to think about the importance of these places, and how long it takes soils to be formed, so that we can have those experiences with them.
Unknown Speaker :Oh, that's so cool. And so that's talking, I'm like,
Lydia Jennings :well, so one of the things I wanted to say is that me and a couple of other scientists that I collaborate with, we're actually going to be running 150 miles next year, to bring attention to soil to soils and why they're so important. And so the kits that you saw, we've actually been collecting soils, and then making little painting kits that we're selling as like a fundraiser for that. So for me, like I have a southern Arizona series that I've collected, and one of my collaborators has one from Miami. And so you can kind of see the difference in soils, the different names, the different colors, right? Like the USGS has made a map of all the different vol United States and the different soil colors. And it's amazing, the range of soil colors that you have across the United States that really speaks to the unique ecology and geology of those places. And I can't I something in Santa Fe, I think a lot about like Santa Fe Indian market, and like all the amazing indigenous artists that are here, and how they incorporate those aspects of their ecology into their artwork. And I just think that's like a really amazing component of it is thinking about it from a soil scientist perspective and the ecology perspective, but then also and how that translates into our people's traditional arts. So anyways,
Salena Hill :well, I was secretly trying to Instagram stalk you just so I could see some of these images already did.
Brenda Shepard 2 :We need to get kids because I would, I would love one of those kids. And I love what you're doing with soil because I'm around here with botany and learning the plants in both Latin and then of course, and Salish, or Cooney, and then figuring out where it's at in its habitat, and you know, all of that that's really big around here, but I guess I never thought about doing that with soil. So that's like, even more amazing, you know, just to think about that, that you're doing that. That's way cool. Okay, awesome.
Lydia Jennings :Thank you. So I'm gonna drop the handles. So my, like, it's at LL Cool Jennings, but that's like my own personal one. And so it's like something that sticks to my dog places I go running, the reflections I have, and then they were running project that we're doing, it's called will run for soil. And so that's an algorithm run for soil. And that one is a collaboration with two other soil scientists as well. And so that's, we have a lot more like nerdy facts on there.
Shandin Pete :That's pretty cool. You know, I had to, I had to, I had an opportunity to teach soils class for about the last six years. And, you know, I was never trained as a soil scientist, really. But in when you take geology, and you get a degree in environmental science, you get introduced to a little bit of soil topics here and there. But once you dive into it, man, you realize how precious that little thin sliver of Earth is on top of the globe. And it's astounding, and you can really open students eyes when you start talking about how long it takes to make soil, you know, and it's just an amazing thing. And then to start tying it back to something really, really important, something so important that, you know, people used to battle over it for you know, some so important is the color, the color and that soil seems to be pretty significant.
Lydia Jennings :I think the other part was soil science, right is it's so interdisciplinary. It's so complex, like so my undergrad was in environmental science, and technology and policy with the concentration and watershed science. And so when I was looking at programs, I was like, I don't know, like soil is it they didn't they're not very sexy like water.
Salena Hill :I didn't realize why are up high
Kisha Gurule :on the list of fields, but good to know.
Lydia Jennings :But like, you know, people like our soil, you want to be studying dirt like a dirt nerd. But then like, I remember talking to a boss, about my boss at about the time and he's like, it's so complex. And so I took a course and I was just amazed because I think you know, soils isn't everything engineers need to know, engineers and construction, you need to understand soils in terms of understanding how saturation is going to impact your building construction, agriculture, and understanding nutrient dynamics and soils, arid environments and how his soil is getting transported. I mean, like atmospheric science, like everything is so interconnected. And so I think that's another component, as you mentioned, john Dean is that a lot of people don't think about soils and how much their lives are impacted by them. But they really are just so prevalent in so many different fields of study. But it's just really interesting how is they don't seem to get that kind of attention. And even in looking at, where we're like, I'm working on a paper right now talking about diversity in soil science. And it's really interesting that a lot of lot of people who are maybe in hydrology, or geology, they kind of go to these different fields, as opposed to like a standard soil science field. And why why that is, and especially for Native peoples, I think understanding soils and why they're important and how they connect to our food sovereignty, how they conduct our land displacement is such an important thing that even looking at tribal colleges and how land grant institutions play into that. But a lot of land grants, grants, tuitions that are on stolen tribal lands, you know, weren't really given recognition or don't get the same kind of funding opportunities. And so I just think that's a really interesting process that I really am excited to explore more in the future.
Shandin Pete :Yeah, why is that? Why don't we get enough funding? I want to know. That's what I want to know. Up front. Yeah. You know, um, yeah, soil is such an interesting thing. And, you know, I just, when, when I when I, when you agreed to be the host of this, or that not the host, yeah, you're gonna host the rest of you need to ask us questions now. Knowing that when you agreed to be a guest, that's the first thing I thought of to introduce this, this show, was that, okay? Yes, he's really into soil. And I was familiar with your, your posts on Instagram. And I thought this would be a good way to kind of jump into this, this episode. But you know, one of the one of our goals here at the at the indigenous Research Center is we're trying to develop methodological approach that works for indigenous people, and specifically in geoscience. And there's a number of us in this group who, who are not in the geosciences, but, you know, that's, that was the approach we wanted to take. Because we feel that, you know, any study of any phenomenon on the earth takes a multi disciplinary approach. So, one of the things that's always concerning to us is, what what is the pathway to knowledge that is appropriate for the native mind? Or the indigenous thinker? And how, how do we, I guess, how do we express that in such a, what can be sometimes an oppressive system in western academics? So that's kind of the question I wanted to ask you was, how did you how do you approach that, you know, keeping genic keep the indigenous part on the top, yet trying to navigate that Western academic scene?
Lydia Jennings :Yeah, that's, that's a big question. Um, I think I know, for myself, like when I got into my program, so I picked a topic that I knew is going to be something that is impacting indigenous people like mining. And even though my project directly was more on this very technical science side, I knew that I was gonna have to find some kind of way to weave in indigeneity into that work. And like microbiology is not very good. Like, the way it's typically taught is not very indigenous, right? It's, um, it's a very quantitative very, I think it's very disconnected from like, the spirituality itself. And so, um, I really, I mean, the first thing I did within my program was really seeking out native societies on our campus. And I decided to do my minor American Studies, I think, specifically to balance all this mental work with something that was a little more heart centered, right to talk about, and even just having community with other native scholars there that I don't have in my own program. Um, yeah, and I think through the process, I was able to kind of weave connections. It partially meant that I like taking on way too many projects. But I mean, meanings I had to work that's more meaningful to me, and I'm able to weave in these important important components. And it was really it took me I think, two years to really figure out my minor component of it. Talking about the policy, when I felt like I was being pushed away from that by my advising committee, until I got to a point where I was like, Listen, I'm going to do this, because that's why I'm doing this research. I like the science, but it has to have meaning and impact to me, to the people who I represent. And that was a really hard way of having your own agency, I think especially, as many of you know, in the Ph. D process, the first couple of years, there's that power dynamic, right, or power imbalance. And so really being able to advocate for yourself and be more central and in in driving the direction of your research was a little bit more challenging. But eventually, I think my committee saw that I had a lot of really great ideas, and I had a sense of what I was doing. And so then they kind of, were able to step back and let me really drive that vehicle. Um, so I think that's a component, but I also coming back to family and having other people, you know, friends and community who ground you and that whole process, even if you are doing a really technical sciency part is really helpful. And, of course, friends to joke with and humor is always going to get us through this whole process. So I think those have been kind of my saving graces and, and then always coming back to running and that place of connecting me to the land and reminding me why I'm doing what I'm doing. I think Well, my, I guess it was my second year. My PhD is like when Standing Rock happen. I think it was maybe third year, I don't sure they all blend together. But also back there. Yeah, I know. But going up there too, and kind of seeing people talking about extraction. I mean, I work on copper mines. But that's just another form of extraction and really seeing what's happening there and seeing the how it compares in contrast to the issues that we have in southern Arizona with copper mining, which you know, copper is a major product that we need and solar panels. And so we talk about renewable energy, it's still extractive, right. And so just kind of seeing a lot of those, those comparisons and how native people here are fighting to protect their lands from different extraction processes. And same thing with our communities down in Mexico. I think those all kind of remind me to give you purpose when I feel frustrated the lab and like my experiments are failing. Um, I think back to those situations, that fueled me to keep on pushing forward. So I hope that kind of answered your question.
Serra Hoagland :I guess I have a follow up question. If you don't mind me jumping in Shawn Dean. Is that okay?
Shandin Pete :Yeah, yeah, feel free? Yes, please.
Serra Hoagland :Lydia, you spoke about some of the mentors that you had. And it sounds like you have a really supportive committee to bring some of these new ideas to the field and your dissertation what you're working on. But you had spoken just there at the end about the experiments that you do. So within the field of soil science, like specifically, are there ways to incorporate things like TK you had mentioned a little bit about like, bringing the community into some of maybe the the reasoning behind the stuff that you're studying, but you know, who is also bridging that gap in the field of soil science? I just don't know who those other native scholars are? And, and then what are some of those things that you can, you know, bring from an indigenous perspective into that very kind of specific, like, you had mentioned some of the experiments that you run?
Lydia Jennings :Yeah, I think honestly, who is bridging the gap? that gap is a lot of Emerging Scholars, I think common scholars, so I think, you know, Dr. Carlota, cheapest at my, in my department, I think she really kind of set the tone for a lot of us. I mean, she's the biggest why came to my department. Um, and she really applied that more, I think to hydrology, but hydrology use, you know, water interacts with soil. So it's all part of that conversation, in terms of making sure indigenous perspectives were in that, um, I also see if my department I work with the native nations Institute, and that was really important for me to really shaping how you approach questions. And I think maybe my second or third year I took the indigenous data sovereignty course at the nation's has to be taught by Dr. Stephanie Russo, and Dr. Desi lone bear, and those that was like one that really shipped shifted my way through my questions and my thinking, because I was like, why am I only taught like, dyed old white guys and their theories of ecology when like, the three sisters, you know, story is like, ubiquitous amongst native people about and that very well describes the nitrogen cycle, you know, all of these different agricultural principles, but like I said, we're taught about Arthur tansley, and his theories of ecology. And so I remember after that, I was like, really pushing back on my faculty, or my professor of that class and he was like, Okay, well, you can teach like a section on it if you want. So I did. And I got so many. I got so much like positive feedback from other students. You Right. And then it was like after the professor I know, he is very well intentioned, but he's like, well, we want to make sure we incorporate more TK Like, who do you like? Who would you suggest in the reading? I'm like, well, there's like a department American Studies, like you should be talking to them. And they have a class, like they are doing that research. I can't make that recommendation. I'm still learning, you know. Um, but I think those kind of conversations as students, Native students were like, pushing back on this curriculum oldwick take to really infuse that, right. And then, of course, I'm Dr. Robin Kraemer came to UVA and she had a basically, I've got one of her former students is a faculty at UVA. And so somehow I got looped into this conversation of like, working with high school students and her and so I got to like, co teach a class with her, which is a really big honor. Right, but also talking about like a college of the dead Sonoran Desert ecosystem and explaining that with her and, and infusing soil science in that. And so I just think of like, I feel really honored with a lot of the fellows in my cohort, and also the Sloan indigenous fellowship program that I'm part of, because I just see so many of our students who are like, yeah, the way that you're teaching, it is like, not sufficient, and pushing back on that. Um, but as far as like, specific techniques, I think that we're all trying to find creative ways of doing that right now, because it's not really present in the current soil science curriculum. Mmm hmm. And that's definitely something that I'm excited to explore more. Once I'm done with my current, my current dissertation. So I think
Unknown Speaker :it's just a dissertation.
Shandin Pete :Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Don't we all? Don't we all? Think that's what delays are dissertations more than anything? Yeah, if we didn't,
Serra Hoagland :just like the case, in point you said about having to do the TK lectures on behalf of that faculty. I mean, I did that too. And I feel like everyone else on this call has probably had to step in, and moments like that. And that takes capacity and time and resources away from, you know, finishing up the PhD. And I don't know, Shawn Dean, were you ever asked to do that at University of Montana as well? Because you're the only native in the department? Possibly.
Shandin Pete :Yeah, you know, I had to teach a I think it was like an online learning course. And what a what a time, time suck. I tell you what, but I don't think that was the cause of most of my, my delays in my dissertation. It was always other things that were dragging me away. But for sure, you know, that is all a part of it is kind of getting exploited in a way. I didn't feel that exploited, because I paid.
Serra Hoagland :I didn't get paid.
Shandin Pete :You didn't get paid? Well, okay. Yeah. He should have Yeah.
Lydia Jennings :I think there's something to be said though, right? It's like Indigenous students. Like, we're not just doing research. And like, we're not even affecting engagement. Like, why did I don't know how you all felt. But for me, personally, I felt like if the people are like, hey, this opportunity to speak to Native students, like, I felt obligated to do that, because I didn't see those role models and myself growing up. And I feel like I was obligated to give these talks because the type of curriculum that's currently there is just is lacking, and it's not sufficient. I don't want other people to know, go forward thinking that only these old dead white guys quit, or like the founding fathers of our discipline, like, that's not the case, you know? And yeah, I like I know, I personally, at least I know how to learn how to say no better, because I'm not good at that. But also, I just want, there's so much work to be done. And so, I'm like, so excited to see these Emerging Scholars and ones that I've mentored, who are really changing his conversations with, like, good, we need you here. Like, I'm tired. You know, I made a lot of ideas, but like, you know, when you see more people to do them, so, yeah, I think that part makes me feel really excited. And I also sometimes wonder with my peers, like, what is it like to just do research, you know, to not be, like, I would really love to know, by, it's just so much work to be done.
Shandin Pete :That's so true. And, you know, I think that's probably one of the bigger points of this whole center is, you know, we're trying to find our own way around what's already existing out there without discarding some of the stuff that's really good. You know, you know, good research is just good research. But, you know, the foundation of it, we feel should emanate from our own ways of thinking, what's important, you know, if I took a soils course, as an undergrad, I probably wasn't told once that it was used to make paint, you know, or that, you know, a certain size fraction is ideal for, you know, making, making the kind of paint you need. So, you know, rewriting that, that curriculum or that you know, that the foundation of that discipline, I think is a really important step in moving toward coming up with our own methodological approaches to research and I think that's I think that was an Excellent point you brought up? Well, we have um, you know, we have an Emerging Scholar here with us Keyshia just graduated with her bachelor's and she's gonna be moving on into graduate school, I think, is that right? Can I get the thumbs up on that?
Kisha Gurule :I will be COVID holding things up, but Yep, that is what Yeah.
Shandin Pete :In your, your discipline that you're going into, is has a lot to do with soil. Yes.
Kisha Gurule :Um, and in archaeology,
Kamiah Dumontier :it can.
Shandin Pete :Yeah. Well, that's where the stuffs buried, right?
Kisha Gurule :I guess, um, you know, working with the Confederated Tribes in the work that I have done in the past, um, it's typically a preservation in place. Playing and so like, I didn't do it. But yeah, as archaeologists in Australia, and everything is a lot of digging.
Shandin Pete :A lot of digging
Lydia Jennings :the soil.
Shandin Pete :Yeah, I mean, digging around in the soil. Yes. Dirt I reached out.
Lydia Jennings :To my son's classes we had like half of the class was archeologists to write and understanding a lot of the same methods of aging soils, that are important to us, as soil scientists like are also important to archaeologists to understand the ecosystem. And like one of the one of the most fascinating things that I learned was how, like, pack rat urine was used to like preserve artifacts. And so like when people saw like, artifacts and like pack rat dens, it was preserved from the rat urine. And like, that was such an important way of crystallizing those samples. Like Who would have known right, Brenda shaking her head?
Serra Hoagland :No, no. All wrong. It just
Shandin Pete :don't work for you can't Preserve. No.
Lydia Jennings :You know, some people in
Serra Hoagland :San Carlos. Yep. No, it's not bad. taste. Okay.
Shandin Pete :The P or the
Serra Hoagland :clarify.
Shandin Pete :Okay. Well, that's okay. We don't want to we don't want to spirals let's not spiral. Moving on from packrat P, but that's interesting. Yeah. So um, anybody have any specific questions related to what? Lydia? I want to call I keep wanting to call you Dr. Jennings. But I didn't know that you
Lydia Jennings :didn't call it ugly. So almost done. Almost.
Shandin Pete :Let's just do it. I want to do it. Well, Selena was in that boat, too. Right. So Selena, we kept calling her I kept calling her doctor, and she was not quite done yet.
Serra Hoagland :Um, I have another question for you, Lydia. Tell us a little bit more about that case study that you're talking about?
Lydia Jennings :Yeah, so I working on, I'm looking at in my mind that's down in the Santa Rita mountains. And it's a proposed copper mine, it would be the third largest copper mine in the United States. Um, and in that area, south of Tucson, your Saudi, which is where my field study cites that there's already two other minds there. So be the third one. And it's been after a lot of controversy. I mean, the the community. So there's two different tribes, my tribe, the classical Yaki, but not the nation, the Hopi have done two different lawsuits to protect that mountain range. Sara, you're probably familiar with it, because it's a home where jagwire has been spotted in that region, one of the only jaguars in the United States, um, as well as a lot of other endangered animal species and plant species in my area. So it's been a big area of controversy. And what I'm really looking at in my project, my research assessment is just looking at the Tribal Consultation practice and what happened and how has that changed. And this thing, a relatively modern mining site, and so it's been kind of just a timeline of what that process has been. And then why, as of last year, the mind was basically shut down, but it'll probably I when I say shut down, I think it probably means they're going to try again in 2023. And it was partially because the ninth district of courts basically said that the way that they're handling their Matt, the mining waste was not sufficient because it'd be storing it on public lands. And that's not along with NEPA protocols. So it's allowed me to really expand my knowledge and policy. and environmental assessments in a way that typical microbiologist don't have. But also, you know, what I'm trying to continue to promote in this is that I think tribal nations need to have consultation codes built in our tribal Tribal Consultation built into their tribal codes. So that because I often hear, in my work working with mining industry, environmental managers is that they don't really know who to contact or what the process is. And I hear from tribal communities that when they do consultation, they, you know, will send things very late, or they do the meetings at times of like ceremony, or just far away from the community and all of these places where they're really missing communications done. Um, I think that the resolution copper mine, which is up north, they've been doing something a little bit interesting, where they actually have a tribal monitors program. And so they're hiring. This is a different mine, I should mention, but they are actually hiring a person from each tribal community that is impacted by that mine. And they're training them with the Forest Service, to then be to then go through and do environmental assessments and create independent reports that they give back to their tribal nations, which gives to the Forest Service that give them to the mines. And so it's really interesting to see that different approach, as opposed to what has happened in this mind. And granted, part of the issue is that they've been put trying to do this for 20 plus years, there's been a big, big history of building up this trust in that area. And this trust and communication and so people don't want to move forward in conversations with one another. So it's just really interesting to compare those two different methods. And that's why I kind of come back to having consultation protocols built into tribal codes. So people can't say they don't know how to consult with a nation, um, I think is a really important step for all of our nations and us as environmental scientists and policymakers to think moving forward. Wow, that's amazing.
Brenda Shepard 2 :That's so amazing. It's needed. It's so very much needed. I'm just so impressed with you, Lydia, that is just amazing. And it makes me so mad. Because so many nations and so many cultures, you know, they do go there and they do exploit our resources. And we're left with not knowing and we're left with the consequences, and it's it's horrible. It's disgusting. So I'm glad that you're, you're doing that. That's amazing.
Lydia Jennings :When it's funny, because actually, the first time I met Sean Dean was at the geoscience Alliance, and there is another professor and I'm forgetting his name. I know, he's an archaeologist, um, as Casey, but he was talking about how like, he thinks, oh, he should be on here.
Unknown Speaker :Right now, yeah, Aaron.
Serra Hoagland :Where is he?
Shandin Pete :Yeah, that guy's awesome. Today,
Serra Hoagland :we're glad you think I am.
Lydia Jennings :Okay, good. Yeah. He was great. He, we were the NEPA class together, workshop together. And he was like, we should be teaching me but to kids when they're in elementary school. Like, we need to like, understanding people, and that's something has always stuck with me. So like, it's so true. Like that this is this. Yeah, yeah, yes. And deep are the protocols we're supposed to go through, which we all know, doesn't incorporate. There's no understanding of cultural significance and spiritual significance in that protocol, then we have to find other ways of really instilling that in our, in our in our practices, not our policy. Yeah.
Shandin Pete :Yeah, so important to start young, you know, in, you know, the more the more that we can label things, our own, originating from our own communities. You know, we talked about the dead white guy and all the stuff and in the textbooks existing today? Well, I you know, I think the lot of the burden, the burden today, you know, lies on us to start creating that content, but more importantly, how that content is delivered to them. We I don't think we can rely on the public school, the even the Community College, the University model of education anymore. I think if we truly want to be an indigenous power and indigenous, sovereign entity, I think we also need to exert that sovereignty to the way we we teach our children to think in those kind of spaces, or even take them out of that space. And, you know, re re imagine what that looks like. And that's going to take a lot of work. It's going to take a lot of people getting a new and different tools. Like people getting advanced degrees, like Lydia here, learning about the soils. I mean, it's all it's all beneficial things that we get from the university. I don't want to say it's, it's, it's all no good, but I think we then have to transform that into something that's more usable for our communities. And I think that's kind of where we're starting to move into now with this center. We've we've had a Many, many long discussions about what's important, culturally and spiritually and, and how that might look. Now we're kind of moving into validating that with the community and see if that actually works on the ground. But let's sum let's take just a brief break, we'll listen to this next song. And I'll describe a little bit about it and then we'll we'll launch into the next half of this, this episode Sound good? Okay, so that was another another song that was sung during this Cejudo them, this poem dance and this particular song was was sung after the the women were done getting their faces painted, after they put on the the shirt, the war shirt of the man and the headdress of the man in which they were, which had achieved some sort of war deed. And the men would start to sing this song and escort the women into the center of the camp, slowly the other women would leave the teepees and join in in the procession to the middle. And this would be the kind of the signifying the beginning of this, this huge limb where, where the women would celebrate the the war victories of the man, and this was a, this was exclusively a woman's dance. And in this time, the women could could also be could show praise for other people in certain ways. But there was also another group of women who would act as what they call the fearless ones. And these would be women who also achieved their own war deeds in battle. And they would be acting as sort of clowns and they would dress up in, in various things, masks some crazy outfits, and they'd run among the camp picking on people to signify their, their place in the in the war society as the fearless ones, the ones who had achieved war deeds equal to the man during those times. So this, this song, I guess, was a kind of reminiscent of, I guess, kind of the thing I was speaking of earlier, kind of our responsibility as indigenous scholars who've had the opportunity to reach the end of our path, educational paths, our terminal degrees, I guess, if you will, and kind of that responsibility, we have to kind of escort in this new generation of, of indigenous scholars with new tools, and, and new, new content that they can use them to keep evolving this process of making our own way, in research, making our own way really to, to, I guess, take sovereignty over the knowledge that we have, and the knowledge that we can create in the future. So my question to Lydia here because she's right at the end, almost at the end, just got what you guys just have to defend is that What's that? What's going on? Or God defend?
Lydia Jennings :No, I saw a little more writing to do and then I'm going to try to defend in September, late September.
Shandin Pete :Okay. So you're you're pretty much at the end, just just a little bit of writing. Yeah, we Yeah. We'll call it almost. How's that sound? Close enough.
Lydia Jennings :You know, how a PhD is. It feels like it's an emotional roller coaster and they're never
Shandin Pete :I know. I know. I feel Yeah. Someday I would just sit on the couch and just stare at
Salena Hill :I would cry. What
Shandin Pete :am I What am I
Lydia Jennings :an emotional support dog.
Shandin Pete :emotional support emotional support TV, emotional motional support Netflix subscription. Yeah. But um, you know, I guess that's that's kind of the next question, you know, if you could imagine, imagine something that would, would, would have helped you or something that can help some of our Emerging Scholars, like Keyshia, and Brenda, who's also plugging along in her degree. What do you What are you getting your degree in there?
Brenda Shepard 2 :I went with tribal governance is what I'm gonna finish out after my grant management.
Unknown Speaker :So let's see. Oh, good.
Shandin Pete :Yeah. So what would you imagine the future of indigenous research be? Whether it be in your discipline? or in any other discipline? How would you envision? You know, I don't
Brenda Shepard 2 :know, I think Lydia really hit it when she said, all we learn is just pretty much I'm paraphrasing this, but pretty much dead white guy stuff. You know, we're so ingrained in western science in the science behind it that we don't stop as tribal people and say, Well, what about the the T k that goes with it, you know, and so, vision, especially being at a tribal colleges, focusing more on the tribal educational knowledge aspect of it, and to see that and to incorporate it, and for more and more people to stand up and say, hey, I want to learn more about this, you know, so I guess that's where I visioned at is, you know, the whole Western science part of it, I think, it's just the norm, you know, and it's taught fairly well, you know, all through our upbringing. And so to be able to focus on that, I think, is really a vision that needs to happen. And so when she said that, I was like, Yes, this lady just got it going on. More and more people are questioning it, and are advocating for it, I think is really where the direction we need to go in. So I full heartedly that's my vision of seeing it, you know, so I was loving that. What about you, Keisha? What's your vision? You know, as a coming up and graduating, what what do you feel like you want to see,
Kisha Gurule :um, I guess for my field, we we. So I did some TK work with the Fish and Wildlife Service this past year, and got the opportunity to go to Alaska, and work with people up there who have worked with the tribes up there. And I guess what I gathered from it was that there was a lot of it going on, and the implementation of the TPA, but it was kind of the same thing that we're talking about. There's no like process to it there. So talk to so and so. And they knew they needed to go and look at this particular issue. So yeah, I guess I just kind of same point in the beginning of this whole process and thinking about how how do we pull these things together to make it into, you know, a system, I guess, protocol incorporates it.
Serra Hoagland :So Linda, do you want to respond to what Shawn Dean proposed, though? And I think he can.
Shandin Pete :Yeah, yeah. Let me repeat that question. So what what I was asking was, how would you imagine or reimagine an education system that allows us to do our own research, to own our own knowledge to take ownership of that knowledge? Because we, because it's gained in our own traditional or tribal ways, or even in a new and emerging way in this new evolving time we live in what what would that kind of look like to you? Given that you've, you're kind of at the end of your your educational journey there?
Lydia Jennings :Yeah, so I think the biggest one is that Sorry, my dog. I think the biggest one is that I'm having native people having the designing the research questions. I see. My My future is being really utilizing these very southern colonial Western science wherever you want to use techniques to answer questions that are important to indigenous people. And that's where I see this fusion happening, that these are really great techniques are continuing to evolve in typical science, standard science practices, but being able to incorporate that at the same level, same value system with indigenous knowledge, ways. Knowing with indigenous practices and protocols of data sharing, of asking questions and having community based, indigenous community based research questions and committee members involved in making those questions is really where I see the direction going now cannot be accomplished at a primary white institution, I don't know. And I think that's why a tribal college is really appealing. When I see some of the most innovative techniques coming out, I really see them coming out of tribal colleges, because they don't have the same institutional barriers that you have at a primary white serving institution. And I think if people are doing really cutting edge, they're kind of put into American Indian Studies departments, and ethnic studies departments where, even though they're doing science, they weren't trained in American Studies, they were trained in a scientific practice or public health practice. But that's like, well, you talk about Indian, so you go to this department. I think that's really problematic. So it is there. Really?
Shandin Pete :Yeah,
Lydia Jennings :totally. And that's what I tend to see when I look at I mean, my friends and I have been really talking and looking about where we want to go into academia, where you'd go. And yeah, big institution has a lot of funding and has a lot of nice perks to it. Right. But in terms of doing the types of questions, and the research that I feel like is really based on on on serving indigenous people, I just don't see I'm not sure if a primary white serving institution can do that. And I think I'm still, I'm still conflicted, you know, I'm, I'm in this process right now of applying for postdocs. Um, because I don't feel like I've been to publications yet to be a full faculty. And it's a really interesting process, because it's how do I navigate being able to do questions that serve native people in the capacity I want, while still setting interesting science, soil science questions, and I don't see postdoc applications out there. So I'm applying for my own grant money and creating my own my own projects, right. That's the only way I see that you can really do the two things that I want, and being comprehensive, and I think a lot of funny agencies say they want to support NATO scholars. But let's see if that happens. And them awarding those kind of grants that are a little more innovative to what they typically put out there. Mm hmm. So I don't know. I mean, I think Brenda, what that really came up to me that to me, when you're speaking is like this difference of tribal colleges versus primary white serving institutions and what their value systems are, and even just in how employees are treated, and that life life work balance, I think, is something I think a lot about, um, that I just don't I mean, I, I just see so many people in academia, going through divorces and having a hard time, whereas a tribal college, it seems like it's more community centered. And that's the kind of life that I want to live. So I don't know. How about you? I mean, you all come to a tribal college, what was your pathways of getting there, it's on my reservation,
Brenda Shepard 2 :it's home. I started and then I just feel like I'm, you know, there's, there's a lot of tribal colleges in the nation that are really kind of paving the way sometimes I feel like as Casey does that on a lot of levels. But then they kind of lack on certain things like culture, whereas maybe other colleges are thriving in culture, but lacking in like, the western academics and learning that aspect of it. And so I just, it's tribal colleges are just so unique in general, you know, and so, um, I just, I just wish that TK was more involved in as Casey. And it's just huge, though. But yeah, so that that's how I came about with my tribal colleges, just because it's here, and it's home. And I don't know anything else, you know, and I feel like a lot of people that go to universities, they always feel different being native and being, you know, in a big university, I feel like it's intimidating for them, you know, and so, um, I don't know. It's always the next step. What's
Kisha Gurule :I know that I started out at the University of Montana, and majored in anthropology in archaeology, and then minor did Native American Studies, and was trying to blend the two together for myself because there wasn't too much overlap, or, I guess, to the level that I wanted it to be. But then once I learned more about the tribal Historic Preservation Program at SAIC, I thought, Oh, well, this is exactly what I've been trying to create for myself. So that's why I can start there.
Kamiah Dumontier :I mean, this balance that we're talking about between like Western academics and the local community, a culture is really interesting to me, and definitely something that we're, we're trying to improve it as Casey, but so I'm thinking about how I came to SJC Even though I'm from the area, I got this distinct impression as a teenager, that in order for me to do the kind of work that I, you know, hope to do aspire to do, I'd have to go outside, I needed to leave the area and go into that university Western academic setting. And it was, like seen as this trip, you're going to go someplace else. And it's totally different. And you need to do that, because that's where you get these foods, this information, and then you get to bring that back. And so like, I never went to a tribal college, as a student, I tried to acquire knowledge, trying to figure things out and be, you know, part of the community at that stage of the process, it was like, Alright, I'm going to go and get this information. And then I'm going to come back to harbor college and try to figure out, how much of it do they want? What do the students think of this? What does the community think of this? How is it useful for them? So I mean, I'm, I'm interested in the balance, because I'm coming at it from this other perspective, like, Alright, how do I, how do I communicate this information? And I guess I'm really, really thinking about, how do I communicate this information and not give the impression that, okay, these are the I don't even know, the qualifications, these are the criteria, this is what you need to do. Because Western science says, This is what you need to do. And then you can find spaces around it, and maybe little cracks within it to to put your cultural perspective, or these like little side projects you want to do. So I'm really trying to find a way to to shift that. And so I'm wondering how, how you've been working with that, Lydia?
Lydia Jennings :Well, I think when it comes to this question, right of how do we train students and work with students in a way that there's a board honoring these, these interests of there's these passions of the environment, but also making it employable to some type of system? And one of the things that I'd have found really interesting is that there's so many programs to support students going into the geosciences. I mean, there's a fair amount, right. But what are the types of jobs that they're employed afterwards, that I looked at it myself, in my training is in Mining Reclamation, and the number one employer for me to work is with his mining companies. Um, but I don't really in terms of my own personal values, that's not really where I think I want to go. And so, you know, so like, so where does that leave that I could do consulting, I can do working for a federal agency or academia. And so really trying to figure that out and making sure that before we encourage students to go into these types of disciplines, there are those conversations about Okay, if you do this, these are the types of jobs that are available for you. And if not, how do we give them the skill sets to be able to create their own pathways? And I think that that's something that really has to be communicated before we can continue to push students to stem because that's what federal granting agencies are promoting, right, is how do we really do that community care component? I'm not sure at this point. I think I'm myself, I'm still navigating that pathway. But I one thing that I continue to push it in is like, what we need to have indigenous coalition management, that's a place where I see myself fitting into those conversations. Some of the work that I do is with the outdoor industry, and so also promoting like, we want indigenous people to be managing systems. How do we create navigation? How do we navigate pathways for that? Um, but I honestly I'm still in that process of trying to understand and figure that out, because I have definitely seen that discrepancy in my own education. And in talking to students in the geoscience Alliance, I think a lot of people who went and got these advanced degrees and then feeling really disheartened about what the options are once they do finish, and they want to take care of their families. How do we do that in an equitable way that's in line with our moral compass.
Serra Hoagland :When you talk about kind of creating our own path or creating our own, like job description, like what you're mentioning, I feel like that also involves a little bit of risk. You know, we have to sort of be these pioneers in these positions that aren't even created yet. And at least, you know, sometimes I feel that pressure beans. Like, it just puts you in such a susceptible role, even though it is really exciting and very important, invaluable work, but there's also this component of having to be the Trailblazer is kind of exhausting. Sometimes quite frequently. Um, I don't know if you'll feel the same. But
Lydia Jennings :absolutely. And I think another pathway that I actually really see a lot of Native people thriving in potentially is the science communication that's happening right now. And I think native people were naturally. Let me not myself, particularly, but like, I think in general, our communities are really natural storytellers. I think right now there's a really big first in the larger society of wanting to understand native peoples, because their educational, traditional education has really left out our narratives. So I think that's something that I really see when you looked at like, native Instagram or Twitter, tik tok, right, and people are so creative in the things that they're doing. And it allows them that creativity, to incorporate the science. And so that's something, I mean, bringing in artistic talents that our communities are rich in that I really see as a potential pathway of really developing in the future. So but again, it is this carving our own pathways that's scary and hard. And does not have the same kind of security as the standard pathways do. And I think, if you don't have, you know, if you don't have a lot of obligations in your life, it's easier to do so than those that do have a lot of family to care for.
Kamiah Dumontier :Right. Right.
Lydia Jennings :And can you do responsibility, you know,
Kamiah Dumontier :it's not maybe much help when you're feeling like you're, you're blazing that trail, and how risky it is. But I mean, like listening to this conversation, listening to everything that you're talking about, it's, it's so interesting to me, and it kind of gives me this, this hope, because I've got maybe a pizza, the idea that the work you're doing, the work that all of you guys are doing is amazing. And when it's compared to the work that has been done for a really long time, just coming from this one perspective, right, that that Western academic perspective, things have been what they've been for a while, and you're doing something different. And I guess that my hope is that people are going to see that and be as amazed as I am. No more of that, want to learn how to do that. Because, frankly, it sounds better to me than
Serra Hoagland :Yeah, I love that.
Unknown Speaker :But to go play.
Lydia Jennings :And so what you're talking about, right, that's actually like been scientifically proven. It's called the diversity innovation paradox. And it's this idea that diverse scholars from different backgrounds, they're able to make all these novel connections in ways that the standard science practices don't. And this is exactly why we want to have more representation of diverse people, especially indigenous people in in the science practices. But we have to make sure that these places are comfortable for us to exist in. And I'm sure I know, y'all are doing that. I know you all are doing that. So thank you for having
Serra Hoagland :this. Sorry, but it's like a delayed effect, right? I mean, I read about that, too. So there there is that proven idea, but then it's not really recognized until like, after the fact like those discoveries can happen. But there's, it doesn't gain recognition right away. So there's still a lot of think, change that needs to happen.
Lydia Jennings :I mean, that's like, basically like every time a Western scientist reproved or we discover something I needed. People have been saying for centuries and their oral histories, right, like, but I wasn't believed until like some Western scientists, you know, rediscovered it
Salena Hill :and renamed it.
Lydia Jennings :Yeah. Yes.
Salena Hill :I know, it's one liners tonight. Oh my gosh.
Serra Hoagland :Well, I'm realizing poor Lydia's got her puppy, they're probably ready to go out for a nice run with her. But maybe, Selena, do you want us out here? Since we've maybe I do
Salena Hill :I do. I just have to say, um, you know, I kept trying to think of this great, amazing question for a amazing visitor to us. And I, the one thing that I kept going back to was, gosh, I want my daughters to hear your story, Olivia. Because just just being a native indigenous female scientists like I, I don't know, I just want to hear just a little bit about what motivated you to take that path and who was it? Was it part of the culture that encouraged you to continue to go down or what was that motivating factor? Just so that, you know, our our daughters and our nieces who maybe take the time to listen to this can say, Okay, yeah, that is something I can do. My daughter talks about being a geologist all the time, and it gets me excited. But to be able to hear somebody like you and see somebody, like you will allow her to know that she can do that. So that was that's my question for you tonight. Before we wrap up.
Lydia Jennings :Yeah, thank you, thank you for the question. Um, I think when I look maybe to become a scientist is like a really, it's a meandering River. You know, but I often think back to like my grandpa and seeing him garden and seeing him his like daily interactions with the land, even who was a little garden, you know, and having plants and really talking to that, my love of running and like being out in the land and making observations and then taking science classes that actually gave me the language to, to record it, those observations are, and I'm thinking back to my grandpa's stories, right. And then my dad is also a really avid gardener. So I think both of those, but my mom is the one I'm so I will say I didn't grow up in my homelands. I grew up in northern New Mexico. And so my mom is the one who's always kind of rude to me, my, in my community nature, even if I wasn't there, that I have a knowledge of my community and to go and visit. So I think it is I come myself from these kind of two different perspectives of thinking and seeing the world. And I think that kind of comes out also in understanding that they have to coexist as we move forward. And not having one dominate the other. I think it's really natural, it's kind of the natural balance and harmony of our, our systems. And I've kind of seen it within my own family relationships, right, of that importance of balance and harmony. And so I would say, I guess those are kind of the things that have brought me together. But it's also been anytime there was opportunity to see something or do something different. I was kind of the kid who was like, Alright, let's do it. You know, in school, people are like, you should find this program like, Okay, I'm going to do it. And it allowed me to see so many different perspectives that really have shaped my worldview and my understanding, by traveling to different places when I did my undergrad in California, and I worked, you know, monitoring agricultural fields, and seeing how people in the Salinas Valley are picking these fruits and vegetables that they can afford to buy themselves, and understanding the environmental justice and pesticide contamination, how it's impacting them. Those are all things that made me think back to my own experience growing up, um, and how my friends and my family, you know, are ones who are addressing US Environmental issues, while other people can put their head in the sand. So I think it's all of those things. One, like always being proud of where you come from, and the people who shaped you, and then being open to new opportunities that continue to shape you. Just like we're Canyon, right, and we get shaped by the wind and the water that makes us strong. So I guess that's kind of my just,
Salena Hill :oh my gosh, that's beautiful,
Brenda Shepard 2 :isn't it? Nobody said your grant.
Lydia Jennings :Oh, that's my that's my first like, soil scientist, teacher, raise my hand. Like him out there. My dad, you know,
Salena Hill :some? Well, thank you for sharing your story with us. I think all of us took, learn something I know I did. And just really gave us that motivation to keep doing this work. And I, Shawn Dean and the IRC team have great plans for you in the future. And I hope I get to interact with you and learn from you some more. I just, I just I feel really honored to be part of this conversation. I've learned a lot tonight. So thank you, Lydia, I want to call you, Dr. Jennings. And so maybe I'll give you the Indian name my husband gave me when I was in your position. He called me doctor almost.
Lydia Jennings :That's when I just want to say I just want to thank you all for having me as conversation. I think this podcast is so needed of you know, I I'm lucky to be at the University of Arizona where other native scholars but I know a lot of native scholars don't have this kind of community and so even just to sit in on like an and a table with the Auntie's, you know, and shuting once a week and be able to listen to this podcast and be part of that I think is just so so special. So I really appreciate it. Thank you.
Shandin Pete :Thank you for joining us on this episode. And to learn more. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at IRC, sk see. You can find us also on Facebook in YouTube by searching skcc indigenous Research Center. You can also visit our website at IRC dot s kc.edu. Don't forget to join us next time as we continue our discussions on indigenous research, indigenous research methodologies and indigenous worldviews.
