Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

#67 - Entitled or Excluded? Paving Over Tradition with Curriculum and Policy

• Shandin Pete, Aaron Brien • Season 4 • Episode 67

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Introduction & Busting Myths on Success 0:00:00
Reservation Fashion & Cultural Standards 0:01:16
Archetypes & Unique Characters on the Rez 0:05:11
Tribal Jobs & Entitlement 0:11:19
Committees, Cultural Transmission & Gatekeeping 0:19:30
Learning Tradition: Formal vs. Authentic 0:38:28
Ceremony, Custom, and Curriculum 0:52:43
Institutionalization, Education & Frustration 1:09:14
Searching for Solutions: Reform or Repeat? 1:22:13
Reflections, Rants & Wrapping Up 1:29:00

Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné). 

How to cite this episode (apa)
Pete, S. H., Brien, A. & Old Bull, S. A. (Hosts). (2025, December 5). #67 - Entitled or Excluded? Paving Over Tradition with Curriculum and Policy [Audio podcast episode]. In Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast. Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com

How to cite this podcast (apa)
Pete, S. H., & Brien, A. (Hosts). (2020–present). Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast [Audio podcast]. Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com/

Podcast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
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Shandin Pete:

Gotta, gotta keep up on gotta keep up on literature. Man, had someone tell me before you can't get a get a good job if, if you don't got good vocabulary. It's not true. Not I mean, I kind of believe it.

Aaron Brien:

The President got

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, myth busted, I guess you can't get a job without good vocabulary. I don't know. Yeah, it's true these days. I don't know if it matters much anymore. Back in the 90s and 80s, man natives had to just we had to wear suits, had to grow mustaches and had to, really, had to conform. You know, you know you're, you're a product of the 80s, for the man, anyway, for the man, you know you're a product of the 80s, and you still you haven't updated. You know, you haven't. What is it? Remember when you turn on the computer, what does it do? Oh yeah, it does all them updates, right? Uh huh. Turn on a computer and you got 96 updates. I anyway, you could tell someone who's done, who has not updated, what's going on with this sweater.

Aaron Brien:

Man. It's like backwards and inside out

Shandin Pete:

that it was a guy. Now, you know, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hit the brakes on my previous comment. I'm gonna go to this sweater that you're wearing. There was a guy, pretty famous dude, singer, pow wow. Singer, and His thing was sweaters, sort of like what you're wearing today. And he wasn't. He went into the, I mean, this is what I thought, like the standard singer from the 90s. You know, they're copying, like the local or the the wave of hip hop dress, you know, the baggy jeans and construction boots. Maybe I don't back then remember they had them pants. They used to spray paint their pants. I don't know if you remember that you're on mutant, you're on mute. I don't know. I don't know if you're old enough to remember that, but I think a spray paint, I don't know. And anywhere you're mute me, you muted yourself. You make popcorn. I can smell popcorn, not me being here anyway. Didn't they wear their hats backwards or sideways? That was the deal, man. But there's one guy, he did. He bucked that tradition, man, and he wear a nice knitted sweater all the time. Reminded me of when I seen you with that who? Well, who was it? Cable knitted sweater?

Aaron Brien:

Terry St John's. No, no, he was no local. Was he Montana guy?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah, Montana. Why can't I think of his name Harlan southern Creek.

Aaron Brien:

Oh, Harlan Baker, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

he'd always rock a nice little cable knit sweater of some sort, from my memory. Yeah, look back in the YouTube archives see if that's true. Thought that was pretty good. I mean, drummers, they got well used. Drummers used to have the standard, right? Got to dress nice. I. A bunch of them, old, old cats, you know, they'll, they'll get their vest on their little leather vest and their best cowboy hat, yeah, but nowadays, I don't know if that same standard holds true. It's just like a free for all. Man, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Well, Pat Kennedy, I remember he was always kind of like, not dressed up, oh

Shandin Pete:

yeah. He wears straight up slippers, man,

Aaron Brien:

and a sweat and sweat.

Shandin Pete:

He had this one kind of neon type of, like ski jacket, like windbreaker, ski jacket, I remember he used to wear all the time with sweats, keeping it real comfort.

Aaron Brien:

Shred, shred, some songs. Shred, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

just by himself too,

Aaron Brien:

by himself. Man, that's I thought he was Blackfeet, but I guess he's not Blackfeet, huh?

Shandin Pete:

No,

Aaron Brien:

he's creepy,

Shandin Pete:

yeah,

Aaron Brien:

I didn't know that. Oh yeah.

Shandin Pete:

I got some pretty good tunes of his on these reel to reels I have yet to get to. But, yeah, some dandy songs still live, still songs that are still living today,

Aaron Brien:

amongst us. Today, still

Shandin Pete:

among us. Yeah. Anyway, you know a guy from the 80s who hasn't updated in a while, still trying to get that job with the local made myself laugh, and I didn't say it with the local telephone Co Op. I You might not remember this, but when I was a kid, you'd go to the phone Co Op, when you can get the telephone line, and you go to the waiting room, and they had these dial these rotary dial phones all sitting out that you could choose from. When you got your line, you get to pick, you know, what kind of phone you want. That was like, upscale, man. I thought we was upscale. When we got a phone, I was like, man, we get to pick a phone anyway, the guy with the suit still trying to conform to the demands of the of the colonial force.

Aaron Brien:

I don't know, man, I don't know what you're talking about.

Shandin Pete:

I know I'm just going off. I had a lot on my mind. That was one thing I was thinking about. You know, the guys there, a guy where you're from, who always wears a suit everywhere. Yeah, there's a guy on on every res that'll no matter what they're gonna wear, a suit might not be a nice one, but it's a suit. Yeah, you're getting uncomfortable, so I'm gonna get up. No. I mean, well, it's way it is. Man, characters. Man, like, res.

Aaron Brien:

Res, like, I've been to, like, reservations, yeah, but Montana, Wyoming, North South Dakota, even, kind of like Colville kind of has, like the same vibe. Yeah, you like and there's the same kind of people, oh, yeah, like the same it's weird. Like there's those ladies who like smoke all the time. And they wear those, like Indian print, like native print jackets,

Shandin Pete:

the full, full Pendleton. But

Aaron Brien:

they got like, weird haircuts, kind of like weird feminine mullets.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah. I know. I can see them. I can, as you're talking about him, I can see him, yeah, there's usually, like two of them, because they're sisters. I was just thinking, yeah, there's just two of them, Sister, sister, cousin,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, and they Auntie cousins thing. It's like, their thing, you know, they go, Yeah, whatever. I don't know what it is, but you go to different reses and you see them, and you're kind of like, wow, that's weird, like, I'm all the way over here, and they look like you transplanted them, yeah, when we were going up to see you guys in Vancouver, yeah, we flew into Bellingham, and job right from Bellingham we stopped. Was it? Lummi, probably, yeah. We just, I was just like, let's go check it out.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah. So we

Aaron Brien:

took off over there, and as we're walking out, we kind of walked around the casino, and we walked out silver reef, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we come out, and two ladies, almost like that, just walked in, and just like stared us down, you know, like there was no nothing, and I opened the door, you know, we walked walking out, and they stared at us. Didn't one of them say something, who's that? Or something like one of them,

Shandin Pete:

something that's awesome, man, yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

So the suits always kind of a guy with overdressed all the time, yeah, yeah. One trick like for you on things, but it's never done anything themselves.

Shandin Pete:

This is what you got to do. Aaron. Aaron, like,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, yeah, there's those guys, yeah, always, then you always got the borrow me guys, you know, Hey, man, Hey, bro, bro,

Shandin Pete:

what you've been up to? Yeah, oh yeah, that's good. Hey, got $5 you know,

Aaron Brien:

they don't care you with the first question. I

Shandin Pete:

swear I'm gonna pay you back. I'll pay back Tuesday? Yeah, I get my check on Tuesday. Yeah, I always

Aaron Brien:

thought it was funny because I I've never gone to the outside of working for the tribe. I've never personally went to the tribal building to pick up a check like I never, and it seems like a lot of people. There's always people on the res that are like, hey, run me to the tribe check, and I'm like, what do you get? Like, what are you getting? Like, who's giving you money? Can

Shandin Pete:

I get some?

Aaron Brien:

I guess I never had them kind of connections or something like, I never, hey, I think they got a check for me up there. Like, for you. Like, what did you do? Like, yeah, I don't always like, weird, like, just, they just made you a check.

Shandin Pete:

We made you a check. Yeah, it's usually like some back pay for some pine cones they collected.

Aaron Brien:

Or, I don't know, they worked in a yeah, they picked up trash or something. Yeah, I don't know. I've been I don't, I just never understood. And I think tribes are interesting, because we're still holding on to checks. You know, checks like, oh yeah, man, sign your name here and pick up your check. And I'm like, what?

Shandin Pete:

It's a big deal. A check, a check,

Aaron Brien:

is weird to me. Check. They got a check for me.

Shandin Pete:

What's weird too, is it's not valid until it's signed.

Aaron Brien:

I know it's like, Does my signature have much power? Yeah, yeah, we're just waiting on them to come and sign it. And I'm like, Really, we all agree here, that's my check. My name's on it. Banks on there. No one's even gonna show up. They're just gonna use my stem, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

signature. They don't care what it is, yeah, I'll sign it whatever. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

What is it? Yeah, yeah. They always say stuff like, yeah, we'll just take it from blankety blank,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, yes. Just, just pull it out of this account.

Aaron Brien:

You ever have people tell you information like that, like, you're like, I don't even need to know. I don't need to know where you're getting it from. Yeah. Aaron, yeah, that check will be ready. We had to move. We had to move things around. We but we were, we pulled. We just took it out of supplemental, I don't even care.

Shandin Pete:

We got that 604 grant. And, you know, run out, so we can't pull from there. So I put a call into the program manager over at the snap or something. The J O M, they have a little bit of funds for Blue Bay cleanup and asbestos remediation Sunday, that title 64 grant like sitting there.

Aaron Brien:

That's I don't know, it's kind of like old to me. Like old politics are, like, old tribal where, like, you learn to say stuff, oh yeah, yeah. Like, learn it in these people. Who are, like, career tribal people. They like, learn all like the phrasing. They're like, quick to like, J O N blah. They just like, throwing all this stuff out. And you're like, you don't even know, like, what? Like, I don't know what they're doing. You don't know what they're doing.

Shandin Pete:

Are they in fercs board? Are they in the FERC board? Are they in the crit fic?

Aaron Brien:

I like how tribal employees like cite their certifications. I'm certified in that. I'm certified. I'm like, that's not how it works. It doesn't make you an expert. Yeah, Aaron, Aaron, you should hire me. You know that I'm certified in that, like, what? Like, what? Well, where's this certification show? I my grandma's, I don't, I don't know, like learn, they kind of like learn, like the Yeah, like the conversation and, oh yes, yeah, oh, and tribal people like tribal job searchers are the only people put me on. Hey, could you put me on?

Shandin Pete:

I like that. There's a category of tribal job searchers.

Aaron Brien:

They're not applying other places, yeah, yeah. Like, these are the people that just go to the tribe, like they want a tribal job. Oh, yeah. Put me on that. I mean, I seen it at flathead. I've seen that Blackfeet everywhere I go, Yeah? I see there's this group of people that they only want to work for the tribe. Yeah, yeah. And so, like, people, hey, put me on when somebody says, hey, they're hiring down at whatever, whatever I told them I gave them your name, and they're like, Oh no, I'm waiting for the tribe.

Shandin Pete:

This great job lined up for you down wherever. No, no, no, okay, well,

Aaron Brien:

just not have a job now,

Shandin Pete:

the tribal job search, oh yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Miranda brought up a good point. The other one is having somebody talk for you. Oh yeah. Like, Oh yeah, you know somebody on council, or, you know, like, the director, be like, Hey, man, could you talk for me? Man, try to get me on. Yeah. Like, you know,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, you just go around the corner and I'm gonna, I'm gonna iron it out for you.

Aaron Brien:

I'm gonna tribal program. I got some rules. These are my line rules, yeah, you don't want to fill out a application. Not hiring you. Yeah. Second, if your mom or grandmother comes to my office and tries to get you a job, I'm not hiring you. This ain't a joke. I've had mom I've had moms come to me and say, hey, my son or my grandson's looking for work, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, he's got to come here. And they almost get, like, offended. You're like, I'm like, no, he's gotta, he's gotta try. Funny, boys gotta try. Sunny Boy. I went to high school with Sunny Boy, not helping.

Shandin Pete:

He knows me. He knows me.

Aaron Brien:

He's just waiting for the tribe. And then these kind of people have the nerve to, like, come and talk to you and then ask you like advisors. Man, I could do everything. Aaron, everything. Man, you need like an advisor, or you need someone meetings that you don't want to go to. I could talk to the chairman for you. And I'm like, No, that's not what I need. I need you to take the trash out. Like, like, I don't know, man, like, I don't

Shandin Pete:

need you to fill out the TPR reports.

Aaron Brien:

I need you to not be in my office right now.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, okay, that was a good one. The tribal job searchers, Hey, man, listen to this, because you gave it to me. Tell me what you got going on here. Here it goes. Hello. Each other. I Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

got there. I don't know who's singing it. I don't know exactly where it's at. Yeah, and now that I I think about it. I think we used it before

Shandin Pete:

we did. I mean, I don't know if we did.

Aaron Brien:

We did, ah, seems like it. I don't know. It might have been different. So it's just a regular power song. Crows. Call them hot dance, yeah. Hot Dance, yeah. So like, I mean, the song's familiar, yeah, when he's showing

Shandin Pete:

this is the record I picked up. 1919, 10, frutigum, County, Indian giver.

Aaron Brien:

Change our Instagram. Change our profile picture.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, okay, it's gonna happen, man, is it Colorado? Might be Colorado. I don't know. I'm not sure. Let's see. Let me read the back here. Oh, yeah. Does not give me no clues. Fruit gum, fruit gum, fruit gum co Fruit gum company. I don't know Fruit gum County. I haven't listened to it yet, but I think I got it for like 99 cents. I'm gonna check this out.

Aaron Brien:

Well, just so the listeners know the song we were playing. Oh,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, okay. I'm sorry, distracted. Yeah, the song.

Aaron Brien:

Well, that's all, I mean. So what most people will all right, I just realized I was gonna say something that would have caused more confusion. Okay, so the origins of pow wow? Yeah, come from the Omaha, okay, are the Ponca. It's kind of art. It's kind of debated. I think

Shandin Pete:

the modern day powwow, would you say

Aaron Brien:

what we know as Warden scener, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

So for the non, the non native listeners, if you go to your local powwow, likely influenced by the Omaha, Omaha, Omaha,

Aaron Brien:

so then it, like, kind of spreads West for us, coming towards Montana, comes West. Yeah, like different Sioux tribes, and then, yeah, they hit out. So then we adopt it, and then we, in turn, from what I've gathered and and kind of what you gathered, we gave that style of dancing to the Salish.

Shandin Pete:

You did

Aaron Brien:

your particular people. Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

well documented.

Aaron Brien:

It's yeah, and all the breadcrumbs point to that, right? Yes, of

Shandin Pete:

course, not traditional, like war dancing, but yeah, and a distinction there,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, the idea of the bustle and yeah, big drum and all that like that. This is what we're talking about,

Shandin Pete:

particular songs marking particular moments in the performance of Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, and so some tribes call it the grass dance ceremony, but it's not the grass dance you see at pow wows, yeah, it's just called the grass dance. The crows call it the hot dance, yeah? And you guys just call it war dancing, right

Shandin Pete:

in the English language, yeah, it's been called the war dance.

Aaron Brien:

What is it called? Um?

Shandin Pete:

Hmm, I've heard it called a couple things, but the more modern version is the switch, the word dancer, the war dance, wench. But I've heard it called, what is it? No, I guess, no, I'm not. I shouldn't say that, because it hasn't necessarily been designated. That thing I was thinking of just that's what it's been called. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

So the crows separate the ceremony of it called the daytime dance, Bob pause, and then the Hot Dance is the social part of it, which, once you take the hot dance or the the grass dance ceremony. And then you apply, like, the concept of the rodeo, yeah, it like sessions and categories and stuff. You get a power and anyone who's kind of has a basic concept of both. It makes sense anyway. What I'm getting at it's just, I was gonna say it's just a regular war dance song, or, like, a grass dance song. Yeah, if I said grass dance, people are gonna think of grass dancers like so when you look at the Indian house recordings or power recordings, and they title the song, grass dance song, yeah, they're 99% of time. They're not talking about the category, yeah, they're talking about the style of the song. It's made. It's made it which is grass dance and powwow song are interchangeable. Yeah? Mean the same thing? Yeah, okay, for the crows, we say hot dance, yes, grass dense song, which is a pow wow song, yeah, it was really long winded answer. But anyway, I found that recording, it made me think of because this time of year where everyone here, they have a bunch of hot dances during the winter here, like, so it's like, get together. They had one last night yesterday. Yeah, and

Shandin Pete:

that used to be the norm on back home, too, where I was from, winter time, they'd get together and do their war dances in somebody's house, you know, tell their deeds, smoke their pipes. Knows, little bit of a process. You know,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, when I first moved to flathead, they used to have war dance championships right around Thanksgiving.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, yeah, yeah, it was a deal. It was a big deal. Man, that's that was, I think it was initially, I Well, I'm not sure, but I know the celebration committees. I don't know if they started it or if they carried it on, but I think it was like, correct. Somebody might correct me if I'm wrong. I think it was like the cultural committee that started those, those things, which is kind of an interesting thing, these uh cultural committees that we sort of talked about before, but I think, I think that's what it was this well, you know, there was, like this explosion of cultural centers. I don't know where cultural committees come in that, but I'm sure they were probably formed alongside that. But I guess in like, mid to late 60s, that's when you started seeing these tribal museums and cultural centers sort of pop up. It's kind of a weird thing, I think, because you think about a museum and a center as more outward facing, you know, like for tourists or visitors, but some of them, they, I think their intent was to serve the communities I don't know. You know, as I'm gonna say, I'm going to say it academically, as you've seen, the steady erosion of knowledge and tradition, that's going to go off. But I lost my train of thought, yeah, so I don't know, I don't know about all that, but this is interesting because you're part of this endeavor in a particular way, but somewhat different with Tribal Historic Preservation. Now that comes from what did I start about in the 90s with the national parks or something like that.

Aaron Brien:

Well, for for tribal preservation officers, but yeah, the Historic Preservation Act was passed long time ago in the late 60s or 70s.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, okay, then Tribal Historic Preservation

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, and the function of Tribal Historic Preservations officers is what. It. I mean, it was born out of, of course, Indian ideas and, like, concepts and tribal, tribal people wanting to have a voice, yeah, in federal undertakings. But it really it, it was already a function in the state level, so, like, the State Historic Preservation offices. So, yeah, it's not like. It wasn't, like a, this is what the tribes wanted. So we created this. It was, like it was the law was designed, really to, like, preserve buildings and stuff. Yeah, yeah, so, but yeah. So it's a little different. I kind of think, like the culture committee seeing and and all of that was really born out of funding that was kind of attached to the civil rights movement. Oh, right. Sort of like, and I don't, I mean, there's all kinds of Indian, Indian education dollars. And this is civil rights started right around the time of self determination in the 50s, right? So, yeah, so tribal Indian self determination, and then it moves into, I mean, really, I guess you could say to the early 70s. But I think people kind of mark the late 60s

Shandin Pete:

as, yeah, it sounded like a history of Indians in the US class

Aaron Brien:

quite a few times. But so that's what I think. I think it was a way to like, regulate the intention was good, right? To like, yeah, to like, make sure things were authentic. Like, knowledge was authentic and it was Yeah. But it's weird, because when you create culture committees with tribes that are still strong, right in the 60s in Montana, there was, for the most part, every tribe in Montana was doing all right, right, culturally, yeah, not long after that, though, it changes, but yeah, it instead of it being a movement, part of a movement to like, preserve culture and to make sure it's shared and perpetuated with your people. It almost seems like it became, like it created this weird form of gatekeeping. You know, in I don't think I'm talking out of turn. But I think most people our age would agree with that, that culture committees were not often entities we could go to to seek knowledge. But really it felt like it was like they were the high priest, you know, and you weren't allowed. Yeah, only the chosen few were allowed.

Shandin Pete:

And, yeah, yeah, yeah. The I think the interesting thing about all that is, you know, if you think about it, like if I, if I was to, say, formulate an argument against or to advocate for, a method of learning that responded to sort of how communities are are constructed. It'll be sort of a authentic manner of doing that. You wouldn't need a building, you wouldn't need books, you wouldn't need to distribute tapes or other paraphernalia around the community to try to help and foster this learning of tradition. It would happen, or it ought to happen, as it does naturally, the transmission from community member to community member, whether it's generational, inter family or whatever, whatever have you. But I think some of these centers or committees, or committees, whatever, what have you has sort of stepped in to be the mediator and, or, as like you said, the gatekeeper of that process. Now this is the thing, if I was argue, now, go ahead, you had something to say there, but I would argue, I guess, in the case of the museum culture committee tribal center, that you know that they're not stopping that from happening. They're not going out in the community and say, Hey, you can't do that. You can't do that, just letting it happen. I mean, by me saying letting it happen kind of spoils my whole argument. But they can't intercede. They can't intercede in the natural progression of the evolution of how tradition and custom change.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, that's, I don't, I mean, I don't know, because I think that we're at a point too, where these culture committees don't have to, yeah, they do. Do think they control a lot of things, you know? Yeah, well, is that what you're arguing for against? I don't know.

Shandin Pete:

Well, I threw two arguments. I counted myself. I was pulling like multiple personality, and I argued with myself.

Aaron Brien:

What about this? What about yes, okay, so you have the concept of Culture Communities, right? Yeah. And what, what the original plan was. Well, then, over time, they just become positions. They're kind of like, they create, like, its own form of sodality, right? Yeah, tribe. Now it's just a thing. So to be appointed to the culture committee now is a form of prestige, right? It's a thing. Like, people say, I'm on the culture committee,

Shandin Pete:

yeah. Now

Aaron Brien:

I think most tribes would agree that regardless of who's on the culture committee, that doesn't necessarily mean they're even cultural, right, right, right, right. So beside that, so let's just argue that some culture committees may have not done their job. Some did, yeah. So then now, now the curriculum starts to get developed for schools, and a lot of that is being funneled through these culture committees, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. So then you have, like, this official narrative, the official narrative of your tribe, like, whatever it is, yeah, whether it's creation, migration, origin, stuff, whatever, yeah, music, song and dance, yeah, very oftentimes, not, not like deep religious stuff, but it's usually kind of like counting the tune and yeah, yeah. So you got all that stuff, yeah. So if you really think about like, and it may be, it started around your age to my age, so the mid 80s, yeah, now we're, we're a generation of people now that could, but some of us did, some of us didn't, but could, it's possible that our, all of our cultural knowledge was gained from those programs, right? These kind of like, after programs, these, these camps, culture camps, our language bilingual program, all that, right? Because if you're not getting it at home, you're getting it there, so you're learning how to sing at a youth group thing or whatever, right? It's very possible, I'm speaking real general, sure, because every RES is a little bit different. But so now you have, like young people. We're kind of like the second generation. There's two generations now. So now there's kids who were completely 100% ingrained and taught culture through that concept, through the after school. Indian Education for All, yeah, bilingual program, even though it's not biling Language School language programs, yeah, all that their their culture, the culture of their people, is learned through that. Yeah, my question then is, I don't want to sound like a gatekeeper, just do it, but is that legitimate, or is it dangerous? Is it good bad? Is it? Is it scary? Is it? Yeah, nerve wracking. Like, what? What is, tell me, what?

Shandin Pete:

Well, yeah. So if you think about, like, what I said, like, so if you, if you, if you buy into this idea that these centers were developed to stave off the steady erosion of knowledge in the form of many things like language loss, tradition, though. I mean, those things make sense, right? So language loss that it seems like that's not for I guess, from my experience, like there's hasn't been like a grassroots movement that's seen a lot of success. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I better not say that, because maybe I'm not wrong. So maybe somebody okay, maybe someone will correct me. It seems like it's all been facilitated via some tribal government or entity thing, school district, school districts, cultural centers, tribal programs. There's probably the few individuals out there who self studied and just did it on their own, but probably was supplemented or assisted or held up by these programs when you start getting in. But this is the thing. This is where I think I can answer, start answering your question about like things get, I don't know. I have maybe some issue with it. So language, some people say, Oh, that's without the language. You don't have your culture and I am in, I don't know it's. You said it on this, on this, on these episodes before that, you never lose your culture. You always have 100% of it. It's just the pieces of it may have changed. So language loss, I mean, anybody can learn what you know. They just give it their all, and they can learn a language of a people, even of their own, but by learning that language, I don't think that necessarily gives them the acquisition of custom and tradition, which is probably the, I wouldn't say, more important, but a pretty important component. So if these, if these centers, then are these museums, or whatever, or cultural committees, then start becoming sort of the facilitator of tradition. Then I think this is where it gets. Something feels wrong about it. So let me, I'll break down tradition, tradition and custom in a couple different ways. So if you think about, like, skill based tradition and custom, that's like, you know, the thing that everybody sees, you know, the beading, the weaving, the crafting of things, I don't know, the outward expression of things, the outfit, making all those, I mean, I don't see a huge problem with that. It's when you get into, like the the ceremonial based skills, then it seems to start, start to infringe on something that maybe shouldn't be infringed upon. But I guess it depends on that thing you said. It depends on who, who is running these things. Now, if it's people who are practitioners, then yeah, that makes total sense. But if they're not practitioners, and it seems to be like them, as gatekeepers of these things or facilitators of these things, it don't it don't make sense, because they might not have a grasp of the need of those things, then they can do harm. I guess in a way, I'm making myself clear. My or No, give me something.

Aaron Brien:

I mean, yeah, it's clear, yeah. But I think you're starting to go back to, like the committee itself, that the knowledge holders. That's a weird word. I'm talking more. I want to know more about the learner. Oh, the learner. What the getting out of it?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. So I think the learner,

Aaron Brien:

the way they're acquiring the knowledge, is that safe? Is it like? Oh, authentic? Is it good? Is it bad? Is it you indifferent? What? Tell me, I

Shandin Pete:

think it's good for the categories I talked about, language, skill based, tradition. Oh, okay, I think, yeah, that stuff safe. It seems safe. But when you talk about ceremonialism, spiritualism, oh, okay, okay, yeah, it doesn't seem safe, however it could be, depending on who is in the position. Of those entities, yeah, like there's people you know you trust, like on your as my rez, there's people I say, okay, yeah, if they were to tell me something about this ceremonialism, they have to be of a certain there had to be a certain person that I would trust to do that, and that I would trust to send someone to them and say, yeah, go to go to this culture committee and talk to this person, because they know don't just go to the culture committee in general, unless you want To learn about how to make a fish Weir or learn some some, you know, learn some word lists about colors and those kind of things. Yeah, go do that. That's safe. That's safe stuff. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

And what kind of, what brought this up was because we're like, in the middle ground, guys like you and me, where we have access to pretty knowledgeable people, right? Practitioners, even non practitioners that hold a lot of knowledge, because that's a real right? It is, yeah, and I would like to think there's value in all of that. So I still, I still go to those kind of people, but I'm always trying to, like, implement stuff in to my life, or into my how my kids do things, or, yeah, whatever, right, yeah. But it also means that our distance between younger people and by younger people, I mean, like people 35 and younger, whatever, right? Yeah. So sometimes. Those people feel more comfortable talking to guys like us, or yeah, my sister, or whatever, right? They don't want to go jump straight to the to the other people. They Yeah, and so. And there's this new thing happening in culture that I don't think existed where people, and I'm not the only one. There's, there's, there's, they're all over on every res, but yeah, you become this, like, weird goal between between cultural people and non cultural people, yeah, and then your job is to try to make it palatable for both sides. Oh, yeah. Because sometimes cultural people hardcore practitioners. They're very, like, impatient with some things. Oh, man, yeah, yeah, you know. So they're like, ah, there's a frustration with them. And then, yeah. And then, on the other hand, there's no the cultural work ethic doesn't exist amongst a lot of young people, so they don't want to put the time in, yeah, so then you end up becoming this weird go between. So how do you teach culture to people who aren't practicing but at the same time, you're trying to learn stuff, and then you're also trying to make it accessible to these people. So you're trying to, like, bring these two things together. But what I've noticed because of my exposure to that group, whether it's nieces, nephews and all this stuff of mine, yeah, I'm noticing that a lot of them had learned like in school, right? They come from school, and we all learned in school, like, I definitely learned stuff in school, but yeah, because of how accessible cultural knowledge is in school, meaning it's for everybody. You as a student, go to the teacher say, I want to learn this in some ways that teachers obligated to teach, to teach you, right? Go to an evening language class. Those people, it's designed to be accessible, yeah, you go to a singing class, a stick game thing, or whatever. It's all right there for you, right?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Anybody who's a practitioner of culture knows that that's not actually how it works. Like, if you want to be a if you want to learn something, there's a lot of like, sitting there and watching, yeah, yeah. It's not for you right away. Like, yeah, you don't have any say in what's going on right here. Your job is there and be quiet. Yeah? Wait. But because you've already taken five ribbon skirt classes and you've already taken, like, your four, I'm on, I'm on the seventh level of our language class. I'm, yeah, I'm the stick game captain. I'm the whatever right circle coach or whatever. Europe. These are positions that are manufactured in a non cultural setting, yeah, yeah. It's they're arbitrary, yeah. So when you enter into the authentic, tribal world, yeah, and you're not taking the evening adult second or language learners class, and you're in there, you're every everything you've gained prior to that socially doesn't mean a lot. Yeah, the effort means something to people. Yeah, it's appreciated. But where you sit, yeah, like, literally, like in some of these things, like when you walk in and where you get to sit, yeah, is really predicated on your proximity to these practitioners, right? Oh, yeah, whether that's a formal system or or an informal system, yeah. And we talked about this with singing one time on the podcast where I said there's no formal rules about where you sit at the drum, yeah, but any singer knows there's rules, yeah, there's unofficial rules, right? Like, I'm not the lead singer. I'm not gonna sit right here,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, yeah, facing the arena, yep.

Aaron Brien:

Some, some drums are way more relaxed. Some are real strict. But we all know that there's like rules, there's like hardcore rules, right? Yeah, so I would say everything's like that. It's not formalized, it's but it's there, right? Yeah. So my question are, what I'm trying to get at is, like these young people. And again, when I say young people, I even consider myself in that category, okay, the way that we've learned or have access to learned through these programs, allows us free reign over them. We have access to all this stuff right then we get into these hardcore like, now we're in the tribal stuff. We're no longer part of we're no longer part of the star quilt class. Like. Not part of that. We're not like,

Shandin Pete:

you're now going to get a certificate, and

Aaron Brien:

then now what happens is we're forcing we're putting these leaders of these ceremonies and social customs right? Yeah, we're putting them in bad positions, because now they're saying, if I say, No, you can't do this. They quit coming around,

Shandin Pete:

yeah? Because

Aaron Brien:

everything until that point has had they've had access to it. Because sometimes the language teacher is the guy who's running the show on this other aspect of things, right? Yeah, that young learners mind. They're like, Oh, I know those people. I take their classes. They're super cool. And then they get there and realize you got no say here, you got to sit over here. You can't come and sit by me like you do in class. These positions are reserved for these people, right?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, it's

Aaron Brien:

all different, right? But, yeah, I'm learning that like this weird system we've created? Yeah, no one's talking about it, yeah. No one's talking about like it's created its own form of social structure. Yeah. And me, as an anthropologist, would say that's a legitimate observation of a tribe, is to say that here's this original system, and how you gain knowledge, and how you use it, and all that is now being pushed aside by this weird, yeah, trumped up, I don't even know, like, it's, it's real. It's like, very real, yeah? And it's like, Oh, okay. Well, this is odd, right? Yeah, yeah. So now we're in positions where these cultural leaders have to make decisions and say, normally, you had culturally astute people show up to these doings. They knew exactly where they needed to be, where they needed to sit, what was permissible, what was it? So there was a lot less like scolding happening,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

We're like, now they'll say that guy's, that guy's an a hole, you know? Yeah. It's like, Well, is he an a hole, or are Do we just not know anything? We act like we do, because we all grew up in these free culture classes and horseshit, you know, and so now we're all just kind of these arrogant, like we know everything. And one of them, you know, my question is like, Do you Do you see that with the tribal people you've worked for with? Do you see similar things? Are my just crazy.

Shandin Pete:

No, I can see that. I can see that, and it so, yeah, so, okay, see, how do I? How do I put so it's very much what you said, right? And I, so I, if you look at it from an outside observer, and you look at the availability of cultural programming in the tribe, and certain people are selected to do those, to fill those roles, you know. You know those people, yet, there's a set of people you know, that always are putting on the arts and crafts, the I don't know, the I don't know what else there is. Can't think anything be like arts and crafts, the language learning. There's people who do that, and those people may or may not be involved in the next level of expressions of tradition. You know, they just, they do those, just those things, those classes and the younger people who see that, like you said, they might get a bit blurred between what practitioning of culture is, if you know what I mean, then maybe, maybe that idea of how to aspire To be functioning practitioner of your tradition and customs might have this twisted view about what that is so. So one might think, well, if I'm a practitioner, I had to be putting on classes. Yeah, I should be doing session people at one time, yeah, I should be teaching Drumming and singing at the college, or I should be teaching Drumming and singing at the community center. You know, then that all sudden, and that can, that can be sort of sell this self perpetuating, like this. I don't know what they call it, like the. Misconception, self perpetuating misconception that, okay, that's what you think. So then that's what I'm going to do. So they're not really doing, I don't know. It's like, it's like, when one of my kids, I'm trying to tell my kids about this thing about ceremonialism, it doesn't start and it doesn't end, you know, in like, four or five day or eight day thing. So that's, that's a year round thing. It might happen and span over four or eight days. But you know, everyone who's practiced that thing, who's involved, deeply involved in it, that they're doing that thing year round. They're preparing soon as it's over, it's not over. There's a lot of things that have got to be done to finish it off. Yeah, and then through the year, there's a lot of things you do to prepare for the next year. And these aren't, you know, these can be any number of things. So I think when just the same way people throw around the word ceremony, I can see how, like that idea of the practitioner can also sort of be misconstrued in that way. Ceremonialism, a ceremonial way, if it doesn't involve some degree of suffering and financial burden. It's probably not, it's probably not a ceremonial thing, you know. I mean quite honestly, that, you know, it's, it's a, it's a burden, you know, really is a burden, not, not in a way that we think of, you know, like a debt. You know, where, where we're begrudgingly paying in but we do. We do it for a reason. It's not quite a burden in a particular way that you might think of it.

Aaron Brien:

I mean, sometimes it can be,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, let's be honest here, yeah, of course, of course. But yeah, I think that's what you're talking about. So then everyone who wants to be a cultural practitioner while they're going to go become a language teacher, when, I mean, that's okay. That's we need that. But, man, we also need other things too. You know, we don't need words. We need singers and not people just to put on sessions on how to sing. We need people to know songs, know how they're used to to be gifted more songs and those kind of things. Yeah, it just, it just gets put in this weird, inauthentic environment,

Aaron Brien:

and it seems like we're there, right? Oh yeah. We're like, okay, so we all know that your people have, like, legitimate ceremonies that are still practiced, yeah, we know these exist. And when you think about the amount of people who participate, yeah, and those things, it's a it's a fairly small number in consideration to what else is going on, right? Yeah, yeah. But you go to the Salish conference, and it's, like, gigantic, right? Yeah, yeah. So this, this idea of, like, this environment, that, although it's positive and I'm and that's the thing too, is I'm not against it. I guess I'm just, I, I'm curious, because I notice, like, young people that come from that environment, the way they learn, yeah, it no longer feels like native Yeah. So I'm like, how do you and so, how do you deal with it, right?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man, yeah. That goes back to,

Aaron Brien:

I don't know John. John would be a good person to talk to about this, because, yeah, not only is his people kind of going through some level of Renaissance and culture, but I think he deals with this a lot, you know where, yeah, he's dealing. I'm just guessing, kind of, I mean, I have some insight, but I am guessing, mostly guessing. But he's been on the podcast before, but these people who are on the front lines of educate, cultural, education, yeah? And then they're also the ceremonial leaders, yeah? And, like, for me, I'm not a ceremonial leader, you know what I mean, and I'm not involved in cultural education, right? I combat the federal government on culture losses, basically what I do. So my job, you know? Yeah, guys like that. It'd be interesting to know, like, because they're, they're, they're dealing with the young people so they up, they probably also know, like the turnover rate, like, yeah, yeah, when they see young people start and they're kind of hot into it, they're on fire, and then dwindle out and, and I'm, I guess, so we're talking about people, the cultural people, being. Created from those programs, but also when the retention is pretty low. So it makes me wonder, what's what? Why they dwindle out? Yeah, and I and I wonder if it's the same reason that I'm arguing what I don't like about these programs is it seems unnatural. So like, these people are learning culture, like, eventually it's just a grind, like you're grinding gears, and you're like, well, and the cop out is, we always say, well, culture is hard. You have to put time in. And it's like, well, yeah, I get that. But it also shouldn't feel like geometry, you know, sit down. This is cultural learning time. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how to explain it, and it's just been on my mind lately, because it's something that gets brought up all the time, and and then I hear these young people talk about culture. And, yeah, we're put in positions to listen, because that's the respectful thing to do. We try to listen, but I'm like, I'm an asshole by heart, right? So my mind wants me to say, like you're doing it wrong, like you're just doing it wrong, yeah, like you're incorrect, yeah? Like what you just said to me is incorrect, but it's like, you're not allowed to say that. You have to be, like, encouraging,

Shandin Pete:

well, you're not wrong,

Aaron Brien:

you're not wrong, but you're not you're not at all. Right.

Shandin Pete:

No question is stupid.

Aaron Brien:

So then, then I've heard people come back and say, Now I'm going, I'm ranting now. But I've heard people come back and say stuff like this to me, where they're like, well, as long, as long as they have a good heart, oh yeah. And I'm like, the good heart that has nothing to do with it right now, they're doing it wrong. It doesn't matter if your heart is good, it's incorrect. Yeah, like a ball player and start shooting the ball and you're just breaking it, breaking it, breaking it. That coach says, Hey, you're shooting wrong. And then you don't say, Well, my heart's good. I got a good heart. I got a good heart. So it's gonna, it's gonna happen for me. Like, No, dude, it's wrong. Like, I don't I don't get it. When people, like, they jump in the swimming pool, they can't swim, and we just say, hold up, hold up, hold up. He's gonna figure this out? Donald is gonna figure it out. No, no, Donald is now answering heavenly questions for us, because we let Donald drown because he had a good heart, man. So that's my point. It's like, yeah, give it yes, the effort is sincere. Yeah, I'm not criticizing anyone's effort. I'm not criticizing but I also know, like, okay, for example, UFC, right? Yeah, when it first started, it was, it was a, it was a, literally a commercial for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, right, yeah. And you had this skinny guy hoist Gracie, yeah? And you had these professionals and experts in their martial arts go up against him, yeah, skinny guy, takes him down, chokes him out, it's over. Yeah, right, yeah, it's over. Yeah. There's no lying. There's no more like, Well, you had a good heart. There's no more like, tried. Sometimes you're just wrong. Put all that effort into learning it Yeah, doesn't mean you learned it right. It doesn't mean that you're doing it right, yeah, those kung fu guys, them karate guys that got choked by a guy wearing pajamas had a real like come to Jesus moment and said, Well, what did I do with my whole life? I've dedicated my whole life to this martial art. And this guy who's not even Asian,

Shandin Pete:

I got a black belt. I have a black belt.

Aaron Brien:

I have a black my my belt is the blackest. It's the has many stripes on it, many stripes. It's the blackest belt you could find.

Shandin Pete:

It's memorizing mini Kenpo, poses, forms, forms.

Aaron Brien:

And so they learned all this, and then they get choked out. And then they realize, like, I don't know what I did. I don't know what I did, so that's my point. Like, sometimes you because you've done something a long time, just because you taught something like that, doesn't make it right. And it's okay to say, like, you know what the system, although it is a system we have, doesn't mean it's the right system. Yeah, and I don't understand why we keep going back to that well, thinking this is going to be our Savior for culture like I don't, I don't, I don't get it, because what it's producing, yeah, there's no doubt on the Flathead Reservation, there's more people now who count in Salish than there was in 1995

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, right, yeah. It's fact, fact, yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

But there's also far more culturally entitled people now than there has ever been.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, yeah, fact, fact.

Aaron Brien:

And I witnessed it. I witnessed that change, that progression happened, right? Yeah. And so I'm starting to see it here, hmm, and then I'm like, and I might even be a product of it, I don't know yet. The study's still out the jury. I think there's definitely aspects of my cultural growth that that have that in it. There's elements to that, yeah, but I think even, like, also, like singing, right? When I started singing, I really started singing here, and it was, I was just fresh out of high school, right? Yeah. And I was kind of, like, ashamed of it, so I kind of kept it to myself. I'd like sing in the car. And like me and my buddy, we try to, like, learn how to sing. So my the start, the coming out of the gate was here, yeah, the Flathead, they were singing classes, right, yeah. So right away I take one, yeah. And really the structure of singing I learned here, but the confidence of singing and the application of singing, yeah, I learned from that class. I learned a lot from that class, yeah. But eventually I said to myself, I gotta put the class down, and then I gotta do it. I like, gotta go and sing, yeah. And so my singing education really began after that, this game, this, I think this just gave me, like, the confidence to do it, yeah, yeah, right. Like, it just gave me that like, okay, it's okay to do it. I shouldn't be ashamed of wanting to learn this. Then I went out and I learned and then I think that's where them classes can be good, yeah, yeah. They can provide those and they could, and they can become like networks for non cultural people and cultural people,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, yeah. But

Aaron Brien:

these cultural learners should know from these classes, that maybe you should be said right away, yeah, what you learn in this class? Like, you're going to learn the basics, yeah? It doesn't give you any entitlement. Yeah, in these other aspects, you have to learn those things. Like you have to put in your time. You have to get the knowledge, and you gain the knowledge this way, yeah, like, I'm not bringing those people to the classroom and you get full access to them, because that's not how you should learn, that you should learn that by either participation observation or going to them and visiting with them, like those kinds of things. But I don't think teachers say that. I think they just kind of like talk about animals and seasons and clowns.

Shandin Pete:

Well, I think probably one of the problems is a lot of it's driven by Grant or program money, you know, and you know people who have a particular skill, you know that they're they want to make a few bucks, you know, in in just the practicality of things, and the pragmatic nature of tribal folks is you're going to try to maximize your your time and the amount of money you're going to get? Not saying that in a bad way, but you know, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I'll

Aaron Brien:

ask you, like a confrontational question, let's do it amongst your people, traditionally, can women sit at the big drum and sing? Not?

Shandin Pete:

It was never, no, it was not a thing because, because it was, it come from, it come from that big drum. Come from the east. Well, it

Aaron Brien:

came from East. But yes or no, can they sit at the big drum and sing? Can they? Are they allowed to now? No, no, just traditionally, what's been with your people for 150

Shandin Pete:

No, it was not, I mean, I didn't. So I've never heard, I'd never heard anyone say that women cannot sit at the drum. But I know. I know, as. A sort of a it was probably just, I wouldn't even say it was an unspoken rule. It was just the, the natural division of, of sort of social norms.

Aaron Brien:

And, yeah, yeah, it's considered a man thing,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, the singing on the drum was a man thing. And then the women sing in the back, yeah, it wasn't like, it wasn't made in to be like an issue. I don't, as far as I know, it was not an issue. It's not like you're already defending yourself. You don't know. I mean, okay, okay, yeah, so no, yes, it

Aaron Brien:

doesn't seem to be the norm. No,

Shandin Pete:

okay, in the past it was not a norm, right?

Aaron Brien:

Because I think the origin of that big jump comes from a ceremony. In this particular ceremony involves the men. That's why I think it comes from

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. These,

Aaron Brien:

these practice, practices, yeah, are also adopted with certain things, right?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. Now, like, if you were to tell a young, young people that, because they all learned from singing in school, where everyone's allowed to sing, but now you say, Hey, you can't. If you were to come to crow, there can't be an all women drum group, like they're just, they're not gonna even, I don't even think they would even ask them to sing. They'd skip'em probably, yeah, yeah. And now you're forcing those cultural people to negotiate what to do if those women come and sit at a drum right, right? When really it's like, well, maybe we should have explained to those people that this can happen in different places. You have to know where you're going and who you're participating in things, right? So now we've made the cultural people bad, bad guys, right, right? Because what if someone has to go over there and say, Hey, you can't, yeah, we don't do that here, you know, yeah, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, that's an interesting one.

Aaron Brien:

Like, it's not typical for crow women to, like, handle drum sticks and hand drums and, yeah, the drum different things like that. Now, with permission, anyone can, right, like, the owner of that thing could say, Oh, can you grab that for me? And, yeah, like, it's, it's okay in that situation,

Shandin Pete:

right? Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, people have a hard time with those rules because, I guess that's what I'm getting at, yeah, because of that setting that's being created in these school programs. Yeah, yeah, where it's it's available for everybody does that arm. I just harping on something

Shandin Pete:

No, I think you're making a lot of sense. It's like what I was thinking about when you're talking about that, you know, there's like, classes to make moccasins, you know, and that's so that's, that's a good thing to know and to learn how to do. But if you're just making them the traipse around the house, and I don't know, I guess that's still good, but I don't know, like that has has to fit a function. It has to fit into a larger need of tradition that happens. Otherwise it just becomes this little piece, this piece that doesn't fit anywhere. And, like you said, eventually you get tired. You don't want to go to the moccasin making class because you already have 10 pair, and you don't, you know, do nothing with them.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, yeah. So you just create a Facebook page and you Shawn Dean's moccasin. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

So it's the same with, same with sort of like the same with singing. I guess you know you could, you could take a person and send them to the singing class, but if they never, you know, take it upon themselves, like, like you said, like you're what you were saying. If you never take it upon yourself to take that next step and go, go, use your skill in a in a setting that it's needed then, I don't know you're just always singing in an old library or the old weight room or something, but you never, you never making use of it in a particular way.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, so I actually it made me think of something interesting. So there, around here, there's a belief that you have to own the right to make hand drums, yeah. So if you want a hand drum, you go to a person who owns the right to make a hand drum. And yeah, they'll make you a drum. Or if you want to make drums, you'll go to a person who has that right and yeah, either share that right with you or they'll give you, give you their right or whatever

Shandin Pete:

right. Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

So a few years ago, I had heard of a scenario where they had asked one of these guys to show some kids at the college how to make hand drums. Mm. Had a grant to for an after school thing. Yeah, they go, and he's like, Yeah, I could show him how to make hand drums. Yeah. He didn't think nothing of it, right? So then he's like, makes hand drums, yeah? He's like, here you guys tie your hand drum, and he's showing him how to do it. And it's his way, the way that was given to him, right? Yeah. Well, then not long after that, a particular student started making hand drums, and then he said, Hey, you can't do that. And he's like, Well, you showed us how to make hand drums. I said, I showed you how to make your hand drum. You want to make hand drums? You have to. You're making. You're using my way of making hand drums? Yeah, you have to acquire that from me, yeah? And there's a way to do that, right, yeah. So then he was, like, all offended. I don't know if he makes hand drums now or not, but yeah, in that particular setting, it created this weird thing where we never had to negotiate that before, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, yeah. Just like, I suppose, just like women sitting at the drum, you know that that yeah, it's, yeah, that idea is, you know, it's, it's different across different communities today, because I don't know. It's not ceremonial anymore. So I imagine, I don't know. I mean, each tribe had a different evolution of that,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, and how they acquired it might be different, yeah?

Shandin Pete:

So that it makes us it makes it a strange thing when, I guess there's this assumption when you're going to a different place, that you that you can carry that with you to to another tribe. Yeah, that's a strange that's like a whole nother discussion. Man, it is.

Aaron Brien:

So in my hand drum scenario, who's in the wrong. Who's in the wrong?

Shandin Pete:

Um, it's the guy, the guy who's making the hand drums. He should have been it is right. He should have been pretty clear about about when he accepted the offer, he said, Yeah, I'll do this, but this is what I'm going to do, and I'm going to this, I'm going to say it, and this is sort of the outcome, yeah? But, like, I said, there's a, yeah, there's pressure in that, because it's some monetary he gets a monetary deal.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, it is. So there's a few wrongs in there, right? Because now this kid's put in a position where he's like, Oh, I learned a new skill. I'm gonna do this. And then now this guy comes up to him and says, Hey, you can't do that. Now this young guy's discouraged, this other guy's frustrated because he was put in a position like that, but ultimately he didn't communicate clearly about how that process should be, yeah, when really all you had to say was, like, if you buy all the stuff and you give me regular work hours for teaching, and then you have each participant of the class bring their four gifts that they're required. Yeah? Because it's a social thing, it's not a ceremonial right? I I'll just, they can just use my right. You know, they're paying for it, yeah? Who bought the material? It's almost like the school's the sponsor of that. Yeah, there. And I think there's, like, a way to do that. And crows are real formal when it comes to that system of of, like, gift giving, and yeah, and, but, um, I don't think every tribe is like that, but I do think there is some system. There's an existing system on how you gain knowledge and, yeah, and even how you use that knowledge so well?

Shandin Pete:

That's, I guess, you know, it might be part ignorance too. Maybe this, this gentleman, just assumed everybody knew, you know he's he doesn't know that people don't know. Yeah, like, there's an assumption that, yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

That's almost common, right? With like, traditional people, they kind of just assume everyone's knowledge is about the same as

Shandin Pete:

theirs, yeah, yeah. So in that case, it's almost like the school is doing this predatory, predatory action on a real and some, some old guy, and you know, don't tell them. Well, it's their lack of knowledge of of the of your, your tribe's customs, to go ahead and do that without understanding the implications too. Yeah, ultimately, it's not the student. Well, no, it could be the student, but it could be, it could be their parents for not. I think the point of it though, everybody's to blame, damn it.

Aaron Brien:

Well, yeah, everyone's to blame because it's culture. It belongs to everyone, not Yeah, yeah. Johnny hand drum, you know, that's my point. Is. That a lot of errors, like you said, everything, everything we just described in this rat hole, rat rat, rabbit hole, rat hole is my point. That's my point. Yeah, now created a weird culture, yeah, that I I'm not sure if it's ultimately good for us.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, it seems good, right? Like when I think about it, people need to know how to make moccasins. Yep, it seems good. They need to know how to make that, but they should also know how to tend to hide. Yes, they should also know how to ethically take care of this animal that they're shooting to be able to tend to hide,

Aaron Brien:

and then how far, how much responsibility is the class for? Yeah, at what point do you have to go and seek that knowledge yourself? Yeah, maybe the class was is just to be used for springboards. The cultural program is just for springboards. It's just, it's not go to the language school and just learn how to count and do all that stuff, then go home, and then you're back to being whatever. There's a way to do it. Yeah, and I don't even know what all that is. I don't know any of that, but all I do know is that this, I've noticed, it seems it's now created this weird little culture amongst our people that is almost bigger, if not, it is bigger than the practitioners culture. Yeah, they're by far more people. Yeah, there's other things, you know, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

there's a whole circuit of folks who, I mean, they benefit from them, more power to them, you know? They ought to use their skill to try to help their income and all that? But, yeah, that's

Aaron Brien:

definitely a part of being native to like, you learn something, and we should be compensating people for teaching and like would be, we should, but I just, I don't know how to, I guess I don't know how to deal with it. That's depressing, weird, little like thing in the back of my mind? Yeah, actually, it's not even in the back of my mind. Miranda might tell you it's in the front, because I'm, like, always talking about it, bitching about it.

Shandin Pete:

Okay, well, what if you could change I mean, what would be one thing that'd be the positive step forward to changing that,

Aaron Brien:

just to use these classrooms are the initial reach out, like, text messaging and all that as the springboard. Yeah. Like, I don't, like, I don't mind answering questions from people on on text and all that, yeah. But I noticed I started giving in two to the system by saying, this is the only way they're going to listen to me. I literally even said that the other day. He was like, why don't you just call him? And I'm like, because I know they're going to listen if I text it, right? That's weird. That's weird. And I'm like, I like, gave into it, right? Yeah, it's weird. So I'm like, Well, I didn't get to do that, like, I had to go and sit and talk, or go in the sweat with these guys, or, like, do all kinds of stuff and chase them down, literally, meet them at places and, yeah, take them to lunch or whatever, yeah? But I also the most learning I've ever done culturally is by sitting there and keeping my mouth closed, yeah? And that's hard, if anyone knows me, that's like, really hard to do, yeah, pick

Shandin Pete:

up a broom. Start sweeping something. It's like the hardest thing. Pick up that garbage that's sitting around. I talk so much, yeah? Man, like, so much. Now, I know it's unreal. It's weird when you're silenced, like you got something wrong with you, you know,

Aaron Brien:

like, I'm not Dude, I don't feel mad. Sometimes I don't feel like sweat, and I'm just sitting there, like quiet, like people are like, hell's wrong, broke Aaron,

Shandin Pete:

or Aaron is broke. Aaron's having a seizure. Don't you hate that when people say, if you had a magic wand, how would you what would you do?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, right, you could do it all over again. Would you? And I'm like, no, because I would. I would just make the same bad decisions. You have to take this brain out of my head.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah, you know what? Like? I don't know. So I'm thinking about this next step. You know, I don't think yours is a good one. I don't like it. I think there's a better one brewing ahead of yours.

Aaron Brien:

I mean, no man, I don't know. I would, I would formalize the system. I would, I would formalize,

Shandin Pete:

ooh, go ahead. Keep going. It's the word formalizes. It brings challenges.

Aaron Brien:

Go ahead. Well, the reason I would do it is because the way people. Wanting to learn is a product of the very education system we're bitching about, right? Yeah, yes, agree. That's hard to undo. That's going to take 100 years to undo. Yeah, yeah. So the only way to do that is to just be honest in our curriculum. Yeah, and I noticed we're so because of grant funding, we have to be inclusive and all these things. But I think we just haven't met. We haven't had, or have had very, very few culturally competent and astute educators, yet people that know both sides fully,

Shandin Pete:

very few, very, very few. When we

Aaron Brien:

we get, we go to this side of the realm to develop the curriculum for, yeah, and I'm using this like, real general, because it's not always schools, right? It's like, even tribal programs,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, yeah. I mean curriculum broadly, right?

Aaron Brien:

Like, like, yeah, yep. So this, this idea, like, how we develop that curriculum? Yeah, we're just married to that system. We just have to divorce that system and just are even literally the verbiage, right? We still just use that same verbiage, like, the 4r of culture or, like, whatever. Why are we still doing this thing? Like we can make it what we want to make it, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

And we were quadrants. We're quadrant system.

Aaron Brien:

Well, when we wrote that grant to harp on old stuff, really a challenge of that, right? Like, we don't have to say the same stuff. Everyone says, Yeah, we don't have to. They either accept it or they don't, yeah and, and we just keep fishing it until somebody accepts it. Yeah and, and I was part of this program where we recorded a battlefield. And there's a thing that that's used to record battlefields called cocoa, it's an acronym, like observation, well, I can't remember all the things, right? Yeah. Each letter means something, right? Yeah. So all we did is, like, Well, why are we we? If we choose to follow their definitions, then it's gonna make it real hard for like, because the study was on spiritual landscape as a battlefield strategy, that was the thing. Yeah. So I was like, well, let's just rewrite each of those, the K, the old whatever, right what we're doing. And it was that simple, like, I didn't do it wasn't magic. And they were like, This is brilliant. I'm like, Well, why don't we do this with everything else? So that's my point. Like, what can change that system if you're willing to challenge ourselves in

Shandin Pete:

it ourselves? Yeah, that's us included. Man, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Like outside of this podcast, what the hell have we done?

Shandin Pete:

We did a lot of complaining.

Aaron Brien:

This podcast is like, oh, Wish List of bitching, yeah, yeah, but I love it, yeah. I look forward to doing it.

Shandin Pete:

What did the new acronym spell?

Aaron Brien:

It was still cocoa. Oh. Well,

Shandin Pete:

there's your first failure. Should have spelled something cool, like Tiger.

Aaron Brien:

Well, we had to use cocoa like it was part of the thing. It's stupid. It's stupid on our part. It's all stupid, but simple, yeah, it was like a half a day to change those things. We're getting it you're funded, your grants funded, you know, yeah, indirect was like 27% so pointless. Anyway, yeah, we could fill up.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, I think that's one of the problems currently, is everything counts on dollars, and those dollars are tied to tribal, federal or state mandates or requirements, so you gotta, like, colonize them up To get, get the funding a little bit, you know, I don't know. I mean, do you though? I know, no, you don't have to, but that's my point. That's you don't have to, you don't have to, you don't have to, but that's some people's opinion.

Aaron Brien:

You should be doing it, for the love of it. Yeah, I just get frustrated with, like, this weird reinterpretation of our culture by by Indian people. It's not even white people. Don't anymore. No, it's like we're. Still fighting this battle. Like, what these white people come here and they change the narrative. And I'm like, they're, how often do you actually see white people come to the rez? It's pretty rare nowadays. Yeah, it's, it's these knot heads, it's our own people, yeah, that are taking stuff and changing it. And then see them on PBS, and we see them on documentaries, and it's like getting an award, dude, like getting an award there. You're wrong. You're wrong. You know? Yeah, I'm getting fired up.

Shandin Pete:

Now you are you? Are you getting sweaty in that sweater? He's in his sweat.

Aaron Brien:

How long you been talking? About an hour and a half. Oh shit, let's hang this some bitch.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, I think we got some follow up on that. I always say that we never do. But as an interesting one, no,

Aaron Brien:

that's whatever, if anything, I've learned these podcasts are just good ways for us to air things out, yeah? Because even as we're talking, I realize like some of the shit I'm saying is ridiculous, but yeah, I do think there's other tribal people that think the way we do,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, yeah. And I think I even think some non tribal folks see some of the mess. Oh yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

And I even see themselves as players in it, and they're like, see why, how we are. Like, we've had some good episodes, some good feedback. We've also had about a dozen episodes that are like, man, but you get that. I mean, even Jordan missed the shot, you know, what did they say? A dead clock's right twice a day.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, more to talk about on this, but you need to cool off, man, yeah, sweater making you sweaty. All right, let's wrap it.

Aaron Brien:

Stop recording so we can talk about other things.

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Aaron Brien

Host
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Shandin Pete

Host