Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

#65 - Singing, Gambling, and Social Change: A Brief Ethnography of Modern Native Gatherings

• Shandin Pete, Aaron Brien • Season 3 • Episode 65

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Opening and Introductions 0:00:00 
Physical Recovery and Masculinity 0:02:52
Hand Game and Stick Game Traditions 0:05:25
Gambling, Community, and Cultural Reflections 0:34:01
Powwow Evolution and Dance Trends 0:49:00
Personal Stories and Lifestyle Changes 0:58:32

Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné). 

How to cite this episode (apa)
Pete, S. H., Brien, A. & Old Bull, S. A. (Hosts). (2025, August 27). #65 - Singing, Gambling, and Social Change: A Brief Ethnography of Modern Native Gatherings [Audio podcast episode]. In Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast. Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com

How to cite this podcast (apa)
Pete, S. H., & Brien, A. (Hosts). (2020–present). Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast [Audio podcast]. Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com/

Podcast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
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Shandin Pete:

Do they? Yes, were you at a salon?

Aaron Brien:

I'm in my apartment.

Shandin Pete:

This is a new look.

Aaron Brien:

No, what's a new angle?

Shandin Pete:

That's it really looks like, Huh? That's what it really looks like. That's an awesome chandelier. That's awesome chandelier. Back there,

Aaron Brien:

Chandy, chandelier.

Shandin Pete:

Did you? Did you install that yourself?

Aaron Brien:

No

Shandin Pete:

easier place in Hardin, yeah. Well,

Aaron Brien:

how many places do I have? I don't know. Man, your man of mission townhouse. This is my high rise.

Shandin Pete:

My pied a tear in harden.

Aaron Brien:

I mean, we don't, we don't use the video. So the lights are fine.

Shandin Pete:

No, we use the video. Patreon. Patreon folks get the video, yeah?

Aaron Brien:

Well, yeah, we'll go turn those that

Shandin Pete:

looks cool, yeah, I upload the live videos like they're supporting us, man.

Aaron Brien:

Turn that one off. That one right here. They're

Shandin Pete:

giving us a lot of supports. Like that one. I give them some love. You know,

Aaron Brien:

$25 I'm worth more than $25 you

Shandin Pete:

oh no, no, but yeah, no, the lights are fine. Don't worry about that. A boot. Don't reboot it, getting a smidge of a Canadian accent. I notice I say a bit more often, just a bit. I don't know if that's truly a Canadian nervous just just me. I don't know, not sure just you might be just me. Yeah, I like your ceiling there that looks pretty, uh, looks like like you're in. It looks like you're in a nail salon.

Aaron Brien:

You get your toes done, right?

Shandin Pete:

You're getting your toes

Aaron Brien:

done. Manny in the I decided to go to relaxation with the relax potty tonight. So yeah,

Shandin Pete:

may as well Rob

Aaron Brien:

scored too, because I was horseback yesterday. Oh yeah, cowboy yesterday.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Had it been a while?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. A long while, and it was rough. I'm sore. I've been complaining about it all day. So like, when a guy gets a cold, is that? What it is? A man cold? Oh yeah, yeah, I'm the man flu. I'm just overdoing it, you know? Oh yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Did not nothing more manly for a man and to feel sore. And they gotta, they gotta, you gotta brag about it. You gotta tell everybody about it, you

Aaron Brien:

know, after a hard day's work, and yeah, oh

Shandin Pete:

man, my shoulders, my shoulders are sore, you know. And been a while back, it's a sore today.

Aaron Brien:

Oh, it's even better when you're like, you sit there and you just start rubbing your neck and you're like, Oh, you're wanting someone to go. What's wrong? It's nothing. Horsebacking. Horseback you know,

Shandin Pete:

or like those, uh, those guys who walk around like their legs are always sore, you know, usually they're from Rocky Boy, I think,

Aaron Brien:

I don't know. I think my soreness is more of a testimony to my how out of shape I am, more than the amount of work. Oh, man, I'm just so grossly out of shape. I can relate grossly.

Shandin Pete:

I can relate to that. Can relate to that. Over the couple weekends ago, set up the old teepee a couple times. And, you know, set up tear down a couple times. And, yeah, I got kind of sore. I hadn't done that in a while, like anything, like electric. Mean, like on the res work, I've been living a city life, and you, you know, you don't, you don't get a chance to do those things. So you do it gives, Uber Eats, oh yeah, Uber Uber anything, man, Uber TP, Uber TP, set her uppers, yeah? But, um, yeah, I'm gonna you send me a song,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, just because you're always picking songs. So I

Shandin Pete:

want to play that song because I have a complimentary song that will chat about too. But I want you to tell me about this.

Aaron Brien:

I mean, all right, what I could tell you, what I can with there ain't much, but, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

why not? Why not secret information? So secret you don't want to braid your knowledge with me.

Aaron Brien:

I don't we bring no knowledge today.

Shandin Pete:

Okay, let me know. Let me know, if you can Hear this, here we Go. I'm Hey the i Hey, oh, yeah, tell me about This tune. Man, that's a dandy one. It sounds very to me like, if I didn't, if you didn't tell me what this song was, it sounds very Midwest,

Aaron Brien:

if you know what I mean, oh, I get what you're saying now,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, yeah. It sounds, it sounds very Midwest, very Ponca, yeah. I was thinking more very,

Aaron Brien:

yeah. I was

Shandin Pete:

thinking more lakes, you know, oh, Ojibwe, great I mean, the Great Lakes is quite expensive, you know, yeah. So some of those you mentioned could be in that area, but that's what it reminds me of. That sort of gives me that feel, you know, in the old birch bark, kind of slapping some rice, slapping down the rice. No, I don't know. It's kind of the region,

Aaron Brien:

slap it a rice so that's, it's a hand game song. Just a crow hand game song, yeah? Um, I've always kind of known a couple hand game songs here and there, but it was never like a thing for me, yeah? Because I think in my younger days when I was, like, motivated to do more singing, yeah, hand game season around here was during, like, especially the big tournament, like the big district tournament was during, like, the university powwows, like the regional university powerhouse. So, yeah, I was always kind of like wanting to go to that instead. But I've always kind of liked hand game tunes. But over the last few years, I've, I've participated a lot more in the big crow district 10 game tournament. Yeah, and so. For people listening, they should check it out, like, go to YouTube and just look up crow hand game and, like, see it's, it's a big deal, right? Yeah, it's a big deal. It's not like a stick game tournament in the sense, like, the game is similar, yeah, but the pageantry of it, the presentation of it, it's way different, yeah, even, even the um, like, build up to each game is like a thing, like, so the so songs and singing is like a centerpiece. It's like a big part of it. So, like, um, you want to jam, right? Like, and so, these songs, I don't know, the original hand game songs, the ones that were given to us with the ceremony, which later just became a game. And then so there's still ceremonial elements of the of the game, but for the most part, it's a game, but it's created almost like its own, generous

Shandin Pete:

generic

Aaron Brien:

genre in like crow music, genre, I've come to appreciate more what was a long winded response? Well, the biggest thing is the way it was, the way they're made. Those songs are made different. They got a different cadence to them a different rhythm. There's like, a different like, and they're designed to be upbeat and to like, get people fired up. Yeah. So yeah. Well,

Shandin Pete:

we can throw a couple links in the show notes for people to click on and check it out. But I would definitely say that it is in my experience of watching hand game and stick game, it is, it is unique among the Rocky Mountains, I would say, on the crow res and yeah, like I, like I when you're a kid growing up in Arley, Montana, you know, you can't help but not know at least two or three real, real popular hand game songs, because you hear them because they're they're playing it during the powwow that they're playing, they're gambling During the powwow. And you can hear everything. Yeah, even into the night, even into the night, you can hear him going. So like those, those core songs everybody sings You just once you hear it, you just know it. But that's a bit that's different than the way it's done over your territory, yeah, because it's, it's not a joined with the the annual celebration.

Aaron Brien:

No, it's its own thing. Yeah, it's its own deal. And it's a big deal, yeah, and it's, there's an expectation with it, that it, it's going to be a big deal, and that, and there's some actual prestige involved in it, meaning, like, if you're the so there's a position on each team called, it's just called medicine man, yeah. And I guess it just depends on what people believe and what they don't believe. But this person is entrusted for the spiritual success of the team, okay? And they so they pass out the bones and the elk teeth. So their job is, for lack of a better term, to make medicine and choose who they're going to pick. Yeah, and I'm not saying anything that shouldn't be talked about, because you can watch them do it on YouTube, you know. Yeah. So if you're a champion Medicine Man, that's a big deal. That's like, major bragging rights. And if you're a champion head guesser, so with the crow hand game, you have to own the right to guess. You can't just, you can't just say, oh, I want to guess. Let's pick this person to guess. You have to be given a guessing way. And these ways mimic like animals and different things, whatever they're to borrow a term their spiritual patron. So they'll mimic the movements of that. They're taught it right? So they're taught like how to guess. And so when you before you guess you do this, you do this and and it all leads up even the preparation before the big tournament, what you're supposed to do now, you might have clan feeds or go on the sweat, or there's other personal things that people have to do in preparation, but the idea is that that that's the ceremonial, ceremonialism involved in the game. Yeah. So behind the head, behind the the guessing line are what they'll call the front line. Yeah, and I'm not a hand game expert, like by any means, so you just go into what you know, just what I know. Okay, we're not going to hold you behind them. You. Is the singers, the singers row. Well, Joe can call it the drum line, right? And everybody hold the hand drum and yeah. And usually the person who sits in the middle of that line is the head singer, even though it's not a position, right? It's, it's, it's, it's, like it's a unofficial position, and then typically his to his left and to his right are kind of like his go to helpers, and like people, he's going to pass leads, they might help pick songs and then further down the line. So, and that's not a hard and fast rule, like it doesn't mean just because they're at the end, they're not good singers, or just because they're in the middle, they're the best singers. Just yeah, sometimes it's kind of like people advocate for their relatives to be in certain spots, and yeah, it's a big deal. And then the wind behind them is the women. All the women sit in a bleacher, and they're all just the same. All the men are just the same, and so, so the way, so songs accompany what's going on in the front. So the game itself is happening in the middle. Yeah, it's what the guessers so the medicine, when the the medicine man is making medicine and going to hand out those pieces, it's our job to make good music for him, right? Yeah, yeah. So they'll tap their drum, we'll tap the rim of our drum. And this is two there's two major reasons. One is it sounds cool, right? The other one is that, like, we don't sit there and go with over to every singer and show them the song, right? We might show the ones next to us and maybe down a couple, but yeah, once we start singing, we start tapping the drum. And that's really just a practical thing. The women can hear us, the other singers can hear us, and then everyone can start singing the song before we pick the drum beat up. You know,

Shandin Pete:

when people give people a chance to catch on, yeah,

Aaron Brien:

the song, yeah. In in, in theory, you would have practiced together as much of the singers as you can get together, yeah, you would have practiced songs some, some district teams are a little better at doing that than others. And hm, it's although, we're told it's like, not, there's no structure to it. They're very much is. They're like, Oh, it's just a game. Join in. I would say it's not just a game. Just join in. I feel like you don't want to throw someone into it that doesn't know what they're doing or is easily intimidated, because it is intimidating. It's an intimidating thing. And if you were just take someone who doesn't have any for one, appreciation for competition, yeah, and and the other no knowledge of like, ceremonialism, yeah. And then all so has, they don't have pageantry unders. How to Understand pageantry, yeah? Because it's kind of in your face, man, like, yeah, it's pretty intense. Like, it's a big deal. So you can almost, I feel like you could actually scare people off if, oh yeah, rush them into something like that, you know. So, yeah, so, lot of Crow people start their kids young playing hand game and until they grow up in it. You know, me, I didn't grow up in, you know. I never really even cared to play hand game until I was much older. Yeah, and, and then, really, that was just a way to just sing more, you know, yeah, it's like to sing. So we just sing more, yeah, yeah. Well,

Shandin Pete:

there's definitely two crowds. You know, when it comes to that, it seems like, like there's the, I mean, I guess with with all of it, you know, there's it, well, I guess it's not impossible, but it's hard to stretch yourself across and dedicate to a lot of different things. I don't know if that's 100%

Aaron Brien:

true, but like, I mean, there's some truth to that. Yeah, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

yeah. If you took like, at least like, with the contemporary powwow scene, it's hard to be to maintain, I guess, being a dancer and also stick game or a hand gamer. It's almost, it's impossible, especially the way it's structured here in sort of the Rocky Mountains. Besides Crow, you know, because they happen at the same time, you just can't, yeah, do it, yeah, yeah. It's real hard.

Aaron Brien:

It would be like being a rodeo guy and an Indian Relay guy. It was like impossible to do both. I'm sure there's people that can do both, but because they run simultaneously, yeah, and then preparation for them is, is, is, there's so much to it, it would be, it would be hard, you know, yeah, so yeah. And, and, because of my experience in the northwest, I know that, like. All summer long. It's opposite here, where there's very little hand game played in the summers. In fact, when I was young, it was kind of like taboo to play hand game in the summer, hm, and where that's becoming less and less. So it was like a winter thing. So all winter districts on the reservation would host hand game, like, single Games Invitational. So like, yeah, one district would invite another district, and they would come over and they would play a game, maybe two, if that one game went fast, just simply an invitational, right? Yeah, um, it seems like there's more and more, like weekend hand game tournaments here. Oh, where that didn't seem and I could be wrong, but that didn't seem to be such a big thing when I was younger. But in the last 1520 years, it seems like it's becoming a lot, a lot bigger, especially in the last 15 years. Oh yeah, and I, there was never Memorial hand game tournaments. And then now there's more. There's like, Memorial things. You know, crows were kind of against memorials. Oh, that seems to be a more common thing. So hand game is is becoming popularized, because now the northern Cheyennes play the crow hand game, yeah. And in fact, they're good at it like, yeah. They've, they've won our district tournament a couple of times, both in the juniors and the seniors. Seniors is 30 years old and above and juniors is 30 years old and below, yeah. And then, then there's, there's a team every year that comes up from Oklahoma. It's just kind of a, I don't think it's all Kaya was or, yeah, I think it's a group of Cheyenne or apples, Kiowas, Comanches, like, mainly, seems like around the Anadarko and Apache, lot, kind of area, yeah, like they come up and they, they participate in the hand game tournament, and then on the on the reservation, there's all the districts plus two extra teams. Were basically when districts split into two teams. So, oh, get too large or something, yeah, too large, um, fighting each other, kind of, maybe, maybe in the past, but, you know, because they've been going so long now, like it's just kind of their own thing. So, yeah, yeah. So, well,

Shandin Pete:

that's really been that sort of follows suit with what, at least my observation here in the Northwest is, you know, and I was a kid there was, there was a, probably the occasional tournament. And again, I don't, I don't, I never played a whole lot, very little, but just from observation. But now, you know, you have these Well, generally, as they, they occurred along with the with the celebrations, the powers, you know, and they'd have a tournament, maybe, or just open games. But now, man, they're standalone. Their stick games are standalone tournaments. Yeah, lot of money. 50,000 whatever. 120,000 I don't know you win, win a boat. I don't know,

Aaron Brien:

100 teams in it, yeah, they're all going on. Like, there's 40 games happening at one time. Like it's a big deal. Yeah, it is. It seems like it became really big. And I could be wrong, but it seemed like the stick game thing blew up with the casinos. Oh, yeah. Like hosting, like hosting big stick game tournament. I believe that outside of Arley, I remember, like in the past, Arley always had a big stick game venue, and then whopping it. And then outside of that, it was kind of like hit or miss, like when you where you were going to get big stick games. Browning seemed to have kind of that, yeah, and, and it's known as flathead style, because there's different styles of playing game, right? And the most popular, I think, by far right, is flathead style. They call it flathead

Shandin Pete:

style. I would guess. I'm not.

Aaron Brien:

They would even say, they even say, we're going, we're playing flat head rules. So the way you're guessing, the way everything is happening is like, is, is,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, with the two, with the two, the two bones and 12 sticks.

Aaron Brien:

12 sticks, kick stick, yeah, the way your your hand motions, and everything.

Shandin Pete:

And, yeah, no, thumbs, no,

Aaron Brien:

yeah. It gets that's, that's, that seems to be the most popular that I've seen. Yeah. I know down there, like in Nevada, they kind of have their own thing. I think they call it bone game. I don't know anything about it, though. Yeah. I mean either. And then, of course, there's the crow hand game. And then I believe there's, like, another kind of form of it, like in the the the Midwest. But I could be wrong. Then. Second to the crows in terms of, like, how big a tournament means to its people are a game. It's probably those the in the Northwest Territories, those the name people that their end game is a big deal for

Shandin Pete:

them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Far I didn't, I wouldn't say it's very like, far different, but the singing is way different.

Aaron Brien:

The Singing is very different, way different in terms of, like, the crowds they generate generate huge like, the energy that it produces is, like a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Agreed.

Aaron Brien:

Agreed. Now, if we're talking like insides of a tournament, I don't think anyone beats like that flathead style, like, it's big, you know, it's a big deal. But I, if I had to rank them in terms of, like, that energy level that's produced, yeah, it's probably like crow hand game that didn't, people and probably, like, flathead, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

well, the I know the difference. The main difference is that there's this one main game, right?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, there's very now, sometimes on these weekend tournaments, they'll have like, two games happening at one time. Oh, but never more than that, maybe three but, but that's recent that, and I feel like that's kind of influence from just people traveling and going, Yeah, I believe it, yeah, but, um, like, if my district was to host a game that We would invite it. We would invite another district over, and we usually feed them. That's like a part of it. You invite the district, and then you feed them and and then you play hand game. You know, it's usually late. It starts late at night. I mean, nothing before nine o'clock, you know, like, like it's you're going to play into the night full and more hours, huh? And you might play. You might play one or two games and then and see in the old days, my grandma used to say that they would stay because traveling was not as easy. So like when the arrow Creek district, the prior district, would come to crow and play, they would stay. So they would stay two or three days at a time. So you would play two or three nights in a row. Oh, and because we're neighbors with the Black Lodge district, they might play us for two nights, and then Black Lodge would invite them over, and they would play them. So like prior, because it's an hour drive, but, but back then it was such a big deal of travel. So they would, yeah, they would kind of do a tour and hit the coaster districts there, you know, yeah, yeah, play hand game all, all weekend, but yeah, and I don't know all the history of hand game, because it was never my deal, but yeah, I do like the singing and and in that particular recording we were practicing, but we're, it's not even a we're not singing, singing indie singer would know that, that we're just going over a song, yeah, going over the song, yeah. In that recording, which, me personally, are the recordings I like to hear. I like to hear the songs, yeah, so you can hear the song. I So, if I had to drive around and listen to music, if I could have all recordings of that kind of stuff, I would,

Shandin Pete:

yeah,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, yeah. I like, anyway, I didn't mean to talk so much.

Shandin Pete:

You did. No, it's cool, man, um, you know, gambling is, gambling is a weird thing. It's and goes back into the beginning of time, you know? But I think everybody recognizes the dangers of it can consume you,

Aaron Brien:

yeah? And I think that's the beauty of, like, stick game and hand game, is that, because it's kind of, it's relatively seasonal, yeah, it's somewhat keeps that part of it in check and so. But I mean, betting on, like the kick stick, or like a game, and, yeah, it's pretty it really is pretty casual. And, I mean, you gotta be really in the stick game to gamble, that much, you know. And if it's not progressive, so it's not like online, it's not like something you can like, call into. You gotta be there. So you gotta be willing to travel, to go to these places and bet so that it really limits the crowd on and, yeah, and just like power Indian rodeo or anything, you go to enough of them and it's the same people, right?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

circle of people. So yeah, like in hand game, you can bet on the first two points, or you bet on the game, or whatever. You know,

Shandin Pete:

yeah. Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

first two points would be equivalent to the kick stick.

Shandin Pete:

Right? Yeah, right, right, yeah. Man, I didn't. I was never a big gambler myself in that kind of way either. Yeah? I mean, I never did it. I I'd give my one of my uncles five bucks or so see if he could double it for me. And I like to sit down and sing every now and then, every now and then, not, probably once a decade, maybe once a decade,

Aaron Brien:

yeah. But it's, I mean, yeah, like, if it wasn't for the style of Crow, hand game songs, I probably wouldn't sing them. I like the style. They're They're fun sing but, but now

Shandin Pete:

people bet though too, right? You just said that, people, I had a question, but finish your thought first, that's done that was it was was that? Was that? Was it, was drums always used, or was there something else prior?

Aaron Brien:

I mean, if there was, I don't know, don't know, I know you guys, there was, it was, yeah, like a pole or something, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

the the pole, yeah, pole and a stick at it. Drums are fairly new, apparently, apparently,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, as far as I know crows, I mean, crows have always had hand drums, at least for a while, so

Shandin Pete:

since the reservation period, I would imagine maybe longer. I don't

Aaron Brien:

know, maybe longer. I mean, I mean, because they're part of our tobacco ceremonies and so, yeah, I think the way we make them now is pretty contemporary, but I mean, probably some form of them are right. If I've never heard anyone ever talk about when hand drums, hand drums are introduced. I definitely know hand drums existed before the drum at least, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, yeah. Same, same, yeah. So what? So, when the So, where did this? Where did the hand game come from

Aaron Brien:

then? Well, there's two stories. So there is an old man, Coyote story, yeah, about the hand game that being given to the crows. The other story is that it was kind of shared with us by the grove on and then some people say the Assiniboine, but I think it's that Fort Belknap area for sure, you know. But and that it's a kind of a descendant or an amalgamation of the feather game. Oh, yeah, which they call the feather game, which, yeah. And as far John talked, John stiff arm on the podcast talked about the feather game. I remember that kind of informal version of the feather game is the hand game, so, but I think you would really have to know what you're looking at to see those, the detailed commonalities of them. And I've talked, I've talked to some of them, grove on guys about hand gaming, and I have a personal working theory on like, what I think it is, or or where it came from and how it changed, but it's not at a place where I I even tell too many people, because it's not, I don't know if it's true. You know what I mean? And it's just kind of a thought, like it's kind of, this is what I think happened. No, yeah. So,

Shandin Pete:

yeah,

Aaron Brien:

yeah. So is this what you want to talk

Shandin Pete:

about? I thought that you wanted to talk about, no, I just

Aaron Brien:

like the song and songs you play out then songs that we've never talked about our dance. Oh no, yeah, I'll play something.

Shandin Pete:

Well, listen to this song and then tell me if it sounds, if it has a similar sound.

Aaron Brien:

I mean, we've been talking a long time too, so this can be the podcast,

Shandin Pete:

yeah. This can be Yeah. I mean, I think we're deep in

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, all right. I

Shandin Pete:

want, and I'm curious, without knowing anything about it, what kind of song or anything. Want to get your take on this.

Aaron Brien:

Okay, are you ready? Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

I'm born ready. Super ready. I'm

Aaron Brien:

actually not ready. I.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah, um, let's

Aaron Brien:

hear it. I'm pretty sure I've heard that before, really,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, tell me. Tell me what you tell me. Tell me what you think.

Aaron Brien:

I can't even like, almost sing it, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

it's familiar, right? That's a stick game song, yeah, from where, always thinking his brain's burning, brain's smoking. It, it, you can't fit it into, you can't fit it into a beat that

Aaron Brien:

it's Nez Pierce. You think it's Nez Perce? It's my guess.

Shandin Pete:

I mean, the beat right, the beat is not, doesn't feel like like a stick game song, right? At least flat, the Flathead style or the Salish style.

Aaron Brien:

Is it not a straight beat?

Shandin Pete:

Oh, well. I mean, let's, let's do it again. And I would say no,

Aaron Brien:

if it's a double Beat, I'm gonna steal that song, kind of pretty, man,

Shandin Pete:

it is a good one. Let me go back. Let's do it again. Man. It's a nice song in that then I'll tell you. I'll tell you about it, but I'm trying to get you to feel the beat, though. Feel the beat because you know the traditional, do you know the traditional sort of flat head style? You know it's real? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so this one, not quite the same.

Aaron Brien:

Hard to

Shandin Pete:

fit it into that real faster you

Aaron Brien:

a, it almost sounds like like an out and speed,

Shandin Pete:

almost, ain't it? Almost? Well, that is indeed a stick game song.

Aaron Brien:

I'm going to out dance me. I'm going to the out dance me.

Shandin Pete:

This here is that was Paul Finley recorded in like 1950 stick game song that he borrowed from the crease five to 10 years prior. Five to 10 years prior? Creed, yeah, my

Aaron Brien:

failure. I

Shandin Pete:

failed you. Well, no, that's a dozen. No, that's a tough one. Man, that that's a real tough one. It'd be hard to pick that out, but that's, I thought it was a pretty unique stick game song in the genre of the Flathead style of stick gaming. Because the beat is not it's not,

Aaron Brien:

to me, I would, I bet it's a double beat. I bet it's a double beat.

Shandin Pete:

Might be in it. It might be, can you hear Yeah, I can hear that, yeah,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, yeah, I'm going with double beat. Then it

Shandin Pete:

might be, it might be hurting all our ears. Man, what a leader. No, yeah, I just thought that when you when I heard that song that you sent me, and when you showed that to me the first time, that's the song, I thought about, oh, it's kind of sounds like in the style of this other song that I know, not saying

Aaron Brien:

that's a similar, like, traditional kind of quarter Lane weapon. It us flathead kind of Yeah, regional sound, you know, it's Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it's pretty though. I heard

Shandin Pete:

somebody singing around dance song at the end games a couple weekends ago. Well, I mean, who says you can't?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, I guess you're right, and in that setting, it's just accompanying something that really there's you can play stick game without

Shandin Pete:

singers, yeah, oh, yeah. It's kind of weird, but yeah. I

Aaron Brien:

mean, it's weird, but it's, it's not a necessity, right? It doesn't stop the game from happening, right? Yeah, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

most of those songs are, they're, they're meant to carry, like the thing you said, like the medicine, the power of the gambling, or or whatever, at least that's from my knowledge around here.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, I remember visiting with a few people there, and this was years ago, before I even had a I mean, I was just, it was just random. And there was a similar talk. There was similar talk like that. Like people had special abilities that were like, Yeah, came from certain things and animals and paints and things like that, so yeah. So maybe at one time it maybe the game was a lot more formalized at one time, or, yeah, had more of a ceremonial element. But anytime there's competition, there's going to be some of that. People think it's not a thing, but it is. I mean, it's competition, yeah, and if, especially if, there's like bragging rights and like status and

Shandin Pete:

yeah, yeah, agree. I agree.

Aaron Brien:

Talk Like, like, it wasn't like that, but it definitely

Shandin Pete:

is, yeah,

Aaron Brien:

instead, now it's like Indian basketball. It's like bragging rights. There's no money. Really, no one's going to make a living off of Indian basketball. But there's like, prestige and, yeah, winning certain tournaments. And even people who aren't basketball players, like, no, like, you hear about like, teams that are good and, yeah, which tournaments are kind of like a big deal to win. And, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

agreed

Aaron Brien:

so there had to be something, tournament ball before Ford Hall, six foot and under, you know what? I

Shandin Pete:

mean, some of the entry fee, yeah, there was some, yeah, before I was going on, yeah, something else going on. Yeah, there's a lot of stories about, about the hand game, and where this, where the songs come from, and all that, all centered around, you know, getting a good luck or being a good guesser, all that business kind of what you talked about, you know, yeah, yeah. It, it reminds me of the the humanity of, well, you know, just, you know, humans are faced with all kinds of human challenges. You know, we're not, we're not immune to, any sort of vice that's out there, contrary to the romantic beliefs put forward by both indigenous and non Indigenous people, that we're these, these people who are not don't have a don't have issue with with, you know, the things that are happening in the world today. It reminds me of like, like, if given an opportunity, you I'm sure that there's some, some Indian person who would gladly take the reins of one of the oil executives chair and just go for it and make make themselves a fortune. You know, ain't nothing stopping them. Yeah, ain't nothing stopping them. Yeah. The thing that don't have

Aaron Brien:

you heard about this? Yeah, what have you heard about this controversy with that rapper or singer or whatever? His name's Russ,

Shandin Pete:

that's like, real fresh. That's real fresh. Yeah, that's like yesterday. Is it? What about it?

Aaron Brien:

It's like the exam. It's like when you said, just a second ago, you were talking about, there's always going to be somebody that steps in there. And it reminded me of, of of this situation, because I don't understand the need, why we as Indian people, feel like it's our need to include people, yeah, in in the things we do that aren't even of our communities, or even like they say, they're not even advocates for what we do. Meanwhile. Like, there's people who, like, live on the streets and, and, oh, yeah, our own people that do this. So in this instance with Russ, there was some tribal person that was trying to give him a medallion, yeah, and he didn't see them. So then they faked an emergency during his concert, yeah, and then he denied the medallion or something, yeah. And then now everybody's like, on him that he's, yeah, you don't like Indian

Shandin Pete:

people. It's Indians, yeah,

Aaron Brien:

it's like, who even cares? Man? Why were you trying to give him a medallion in the first place? I'm sure you got nieces and nephews that need

Shandin Pete:

one moccasins. Man, yeah,

Aaron Brien:

I don't see, I don't see the need to get acceptance or, like, some sort of like, and I don't even know how I got here, but there's this thing, this weird starvation we have for it, you know, yeah, this has to do with hang game or anything. I'm actually trying to replay back how I got to this point, and I can't You said something that triggered it, like,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, it triggered you, vices, the the vice human, vices,

Aaron Brien:

yeah. And then you started saying,

Shandin Pete:

Oh, shoot. Oh, I said. I said, yeah, there, there's a, there's Indian person out there who would gladly take the seed of the oil executive and do the exact same thing they're doing, in a way, maybe, but I don't. Then you, then you, then you started talking

Aaron Brien:

about that. I have no idea what I'm talking about, but it's, it is a pet peeve of mine that we feel the need as Indian people to like, to find acceptance by by celebrities, by politicians, by Yeah, the British Crown are like whatever, like, we're constantly giving war bonds to somebody, adopting somebody, and like, crows get teased for this. But in all honesty, man, there's a lot of people doing it, you know, and it's like, yeah, we're giving Indian names up. Meanwhile, our own people are, like, culturally starving, and we ain't doing a damn thing for them. Yeah, those same people who are doing their best to like, give Obama Indian names and Prince Charles and like Kyrie Irving, but I actually think he's part, he's literally part Indian or something. I don't know. I have no idea, but, yeah, there's a weird. There's a weird, like, fascination, yeah, with with that, but we don't do that for our own. Um, so bringing it back to hand game, one thing I appreciate about crow hand game, and really, you can say this for even, like, stick games that I've witnessed, yeah, they seem to be so insular that it's not catering to non Indian people at all. Like, when you go to a hand game, it's, that's not their audience, yeah, yeah. It's, it's not in even crow hand games. It's like, it's just a it's just its own thing. Yeah, and even I like Paulo, but Paulo, in its nature, is like for a show. You know?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, I was just thinking about that the other day because I went to this little pow here in in the city, and I could hear the somebody Non, non native folks in the back saying, Oh, I can't wait till these guys perform. Can't wait till the performance starts. And I thought, well, I know. I mean, not really. I mean at one time it was right, it was the show. What its

Aaron Brien:

own thing now, yeah, from its own deal. Like, yeah, it's, it's, it's a subculture of native culture. Now pause its own thing.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. So I was telling my kids, I said, Look at all these people. They think we're putting on a show for them. You know, even when we're getting dressed, they're like, really watching us, you know, taking pictures. And we're there to, you know, to enjoy ourselves and not to put on a show. And then everybody claps when the song's over, you it's like, oh, God,

Aaron Brien:

I have a controversial thought though about pow wow? Yeah. So we've kind of been getting Miranda and I, we kind of been getting into this, like, powwow vlogs.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, okay, like, just watching them. Okay. Coolest

Aaron Brien:

thing for people who like to go to powers, you never have to leave your house. You could just watch these people travel. Oh, yeah, there's a guy who's a fancy dancer, right? Yeah. And me, personally, I maybe I never gave fancy dance. It's appreciation

Shandin Pete:

or but it seems like an evangelist hater.

Aaron Brien:

Well, no, but I just never, that's at the last it used to be at the end, remember? And it was Oh yeah, always oh my

Shandin Pete:

god, I'm over without chicken dance. At the end, yeah,

Aaron Brien:

if you're sitting at the day like, you're like, Come on, man, like, I want to go home anyway. But so, because he's a fancy dancer, his vlog is like, fancy dance based, right? Yeah, so watching, like, fancy dancers and like, and I, we even had Walt on the podcast. He talked a lot about fence events, but watching it, yeah, like, what, sitting there and actually paying attention to it like I never did before. Yeah, what? Like, where did it even come from? It almost doesn't look native to me, like us, like North America, like, like Indian, it doesn't it's like, yeah, I don't know. It's like, yeah, Inca or something, like, you watching them, and you're like, What are they doing? They're like, doing cartwheels, and they're like, doing the splits, and they got two bustles on. And they're kind of creepy looking actually, when you like, watch, it's like, I'm probably gonna piss somebody off. But I'm just saying it because you look at chicken dance, you look at crow style, you look at Northern traditional, oh, jive. They kind of make sense. You're like, Oh, I get that,

Shandin Pete:

right. It emulates an older style.

Aaron Brien:

And you can kind of almost see, yeah, okay, the northern bustle, clearly is, like, from this, and then you got round bustle, and then you got all this stuff, and you can kind of see where it's going, yeah, and then, boom, fancy dancing. You're like, what, like, where's this? It is insane, dude, yeah, it seems so hard,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

So you, you were probably from, like, your pow wowing age, when you were young, fancy dance was a big deal for me. It was my I remember my age, it was like, grass dancing. Everybody wanted to be a grass dancer. It was like, Cool. It was almost, kind of like it was almost kind of had a little bit of hip hop and, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, you know what I mean, like, it was, like, it, it just was different. And, like, Yeah, whatever, you know. But so maybe I'm just biased and kind of a weirdo. But when you sit down and you really watch all the categories of native dances at powwows. Fancy Dance does seem, and I hope I'm not offending anyone to be like the most far out,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, well, it's probably the newest, I would say,

Aaron Brien:

in a way, yeah, I think it. I mean, I think it is,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, as far as the the step in, in the in the attire, very contemporary, yeah. And I'm not talking like 2000s contemporary. I'm talking like, what did it start? I can't remember what Walt was telling us about his

Aaron Brien:

70s, 60s,

Shandin Pete:

60s. Yeah, 60s. I remember.

Aaron Brien:

Did he mention a guy named Gus McDonald and a guy named Gus McDonald? I can't remember, but I know that that's like a name, yeah, like the ponkas and Anadarko and, like,

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, let's revisit that

Aaron Brien:

to know. I mean, that's not what I even wanted to talk about. I guess I just we started going into the show thing. So, oh yeah, it was just, just because we were watching these vlogs, and I'm like, holy smokes. Like, Fancy Dance seems so like, foreign almost to me. Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, it's definitely something else. But yeah, the whole powwow scene. Now, you know, I think it's, um, unless you're like people, outside of it is very misunderstood. You know, people still think it's a show put on for people. But, man, it's, it's its own it's its own thing now. I mean, it has been for for many, many decades. I think since

Aaron Brien:

we're finishing the podcast with the power thing. When did the whole, like, northern traditional things start of, like, tell your story, and then, like, when all the northern dancers, like, go to the middle of the arena, and then they're like, like, when did that start? Because I know for a fact there's going to be people that, oh, yeah, oh, we've always done this, but

Shandin Pete:

no, no, no, that's no, no, no, that, I mean, that's, that's pretty new. It has been the last 510, years or so. I remember the first time I seen it. I can't remember where I was at but yeah, it was, it was a bit odd to me. And I don't, I don't when I'm dancing, I don't do it. I'm because I don't know what's going on. What do we do your story? I don't, I don't tell you that's not part of my story. I don't, I don't do that. My story is different. I'm off on the side getting the work done.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, I know. I just kind of like, know. Percent. I'm not even a powwow expert. Yeah, I don't consider myself a powwow guy. I think I just had a short run, yeah, just so maybe I'm wrong, but the

Shandin Pete:

crowd loves it, though, man. Though they do though, man, they love it. Oh, yeah. Look at all these guys attacking the middle, yeah, and they'll raise their stick and then go the opposite way.

Aaron Brien:

You put your you put your acoustic in, you

Shandin Pete:

put your dance stick in. All about, yeah, I mean, maybe, maybe it was a, like a traditional somewhere, and it just caught on. You know, I was just talking to my daughter and her boyfriend, and I said, you remember the the itty bitty bustle people used to put on the back of their roach? It was like a fad for like, a second,

Aaron Brien:

oh, like on the bottom part, like, yeah, like,

Shandin Pete:

one person did it. Next thing, you know, everybody was doing it. And then, like, in a few years, it just disappeared. What did they do with that?

Aaron Brien:

Like, flicker feathers?

Shandin Pete:

No, it's like, it was like a, like, a little, like a little mini round, oh, I remember

Aaron Brien:

that. Do you remember, like, the flicker, like, flicker feathers became like a big deal, and then everybody had them, like, on the side of their head. Oh, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, Indians. And then they were ancient, then they're gone,

Aaron Brien:

history, then they're gone. Yeah, you don't see them. I don't

Shandin Pete:

know, man, you,

Aaron Brien:

you're probably old enough now to where you're getting to that point where there's people that are claiming that always, we've always done this, and you're like, what?

Shandin Pete:

Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah. I heard Yeah. I heard it all, yeah. I think one guy was claiming that the grand entry was first started in the 1970 1970 or something. I was like, what I mean? Yeah, no, I'm Everybody's got their own experience, so I'm not gonna, I ain't gonna, fact check, nobody, but fads, fads are fads. That's, I think that's unique, though, and I think it's needed. And I don't, I don't, I used to kind of scoff at it a bit, but I think it kind of unifies people in a way

Aaron Brien:

it does, and it makes it their thing. They're like time stamps. They're like timestamps. It's like my era was, especially in the rounded and singing world, was big river Cree, man. And there's no denying that I'm time stamped. Yeah, to Big River Cree, you know, yeah, I really want to be in the little island Cree era, but I'm not really. I mean, I like getting force yourself, but I'm definitely from the lard Thomas era

Shandin Pete:

of, yeah. So, yeah, yeah. I think that that, the fact that we can see fads like that kind of, yeah, blow

Aaron Brien:

through witness Chicken Dance blow up, oh yeah, yeah, like in front of my eyes, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

oh yeah. And, and even, even the style of dancing has changed since it's blown up, yeah, the style of chicken dancing has changed. Oh yeah, yeah, I don't

Aaron Brien:

know, man, so, but wait real quick. Besides Nikki Bell, we met Nikki at the University of Indiana. He was like the first nations whatever, yeah. Besides his dissertation, our masters, do you have, you've ever heard of anyone studying that have ever written on power, like, not in the sense, like, all the history of power, but like, like, almost like, an anthropological works on, like, power as a subculture of native people. That would be kind of interesting, if it's like, like, look like, legit,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, I don't know for sure. You know, I'm not 100% sure. I don't know. I haven't come across much, but I haven't looked much either. Yeah, for that, I'm gonna

Aaron Brien:

it just made me think of it. I've never even once thought about it, but tell just now

Shandin Pete:

I've come across some kind of corny ones that, you know they talk about powwows and drug addiction. No, that's not corny. I mean, you know,

Aaron Brien:

I witnessed you cancel yourself.

Shandin Pete:

I mean, you know, where you where a person tries to fit the real academic thing into something that it isn't, you know, like the power method of healing, or the power method, oh

Aaron Brien:

yeah, oh boy, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

method of, of to. To alleviate, you know, dyslexia or so,

Aaron Brien:

powwow to combat

Shandin Pete:

diabetes was a Yeah, yeah. I know you can google good on YouTube right now, and you can find a powwow workout video sponsored by diabetes association.

Aaron Brien:

You should, you should post a power workout, no, and tell your story. Oh no, practice.

Shandin Pete:

Oh no, that's not going to happen.

Aaron Brien:

It's not going to happen. No, it will

Shandin Pete:

never happen. Ever. Yeah, yeah, pretty crazy. Well, how long

Aaron Brien:

did we talk? Um, I

Shandin Pete:

don't know you tell me, but I don't see it no more. We've been talking a while, right? We've been at it for about an hour. I think, yeah, that's enough.

Aaron Brien:

That's plenty, man. And then sometimes our podcast is too long.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, they get talking too much. We're talking too much. We need to talk that much. Yeah, we're boring.

Aaron Brien:

We I mean, we are

Shandin Pete:

boring as hell. Who wants to listen to us drone on about hand game

Aaron Brien:

power? Do you not consider yourself boring? No, I'm

Shandin Pete:

a boring person. I can tell because when I try to talk to people, they just they ice me.

Aaron Brien:

I'm a boring guy. I'm a boring guy. I mean, my idea of fun is like watching power vlogs. Yeah, it's, there you go. It's literally watching someone else have fun.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah? Yeah, you're cut. You turn into a homebody. I see you got the lazy boy out. And

Aaron Brien:

then what's happening, yeah, is I've learned to nap. I've never napped. I was never a Napper. So now Miranda has introduced me to the power of the nap. Oh, man, I fought it for so long.

Shandin Pete:

So you got slippers?

Aaron Brien:

Do I got slippers?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. What kind are they? I want to see them. Are they leather? Are they leathery? Oh, no. They got like, fur on the inside of them.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, of course, yeah, insulated. What are they made of? I mean, I don't know leather Blender.

Shandin Pete:

I want to see a slipper, man. I want to see this slipper.

Aaron Brien:

Where? Where's the sign? Man, you know what I do too, when we get home, like, I literally walk in the door and I just put pajamas on right away. It's like sweat. It's like a straight like it used to be where I kept my jeans on. I'm like, you never know. I might have to go outside. Company might come over. I walk right in. Boom, change, like Superman, man,

Shandin Pete:

you went from 30 to 60 in like a year. Oh yeah, dude,

Aaron Brien:

I'm Uncle Rico to the max. I'm, this is what I think I'm Uncle Rico, with everything, with Pow Wow, singing, with round dancing with when I did jujitsu, when I did MMA, yeah, even like horses and stuff, yeah, just uncle Rico, everything is used to, be used to, I used to. I used to everything's used to, even, like academic stuff. It's used to back when I did that, back when I that's all I am, and back when i i Should that should be what my I should just be. I should be my motto when I did that, you know, like,

Shandin Pete:

I done all that, but I don't do it now.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, it's like, shut up, Aaron, you should just do something new, you know, like, just go do something

Shandin Pete:

else. It's like, wow, back on.

Aaron Brien:

Put the jeans back on, and get out there and change the world, you know,

Shandin Pete:

enroll in a dojo.

Aaron Brien:

Be the change here. See

Shandin Pete:

that slipper? Let's see that slipper. I know it's leather.

Aaron Brien:

Well, it's got a real soul, just in case you gotta haul the trash Bozeman like Target slippers. What do they say? Oh, man, deer foams, D, E, A, R, deer foams. Deer foams.

Shandin Pete:

Do? Oh, man, you're done.

Aaron Brien:

You're done. This is how lazy I am. Even my slippers are like, slip ons. I can't even I just, they just slip on they don't go over my ankle. They're just like, oh, even my slippers are going, Dude, you're done. I'm done for

Shandin Pete:

it. Yeah, you need to find a you need to find a coffee shop or a cafe you can go to and sit there and tell your has been stories now.

Aaron Brien:

Oh, you reach that, man, you reach that. I've earned it. Man, you've

Shandin Pete:

earned it. Earned

Aaron Brien:

it, yeah, but yesterday, I am, I helped move some cows. Oh, yeah. And so I got a new story, you know, so that, I mean, that's, that's an example of me putting the Oh, dude, I hit a cow. We hit a cow. Like driving, driving home last night. Boom, hard, fast, yeah, oh yeah. Ruin it. Ruin something right on the road, right on the middle of the road. Boom, yeah. Ruin your

Shandin Pete:

ruin your video, ruin your rig. Or what?

Aaron Brien:

No, you know, what's crazy is I got that big grill guard on the front of my pickup. When it smashed the grill guard, it pushed it in so it broke my um headlights. But had it not been for that grill guard, I bet, I bet, I would have destroyed my front end. Man, oh yeah, I'd have destroyed it, that

Shandin Pete:

thing, 1000 pounds.

Aaron Brien:

Think, um, Jesus, Herbert Christ,

Shandin Pete:

Abraham, get me the

Aaron Brien:

Bible. Say Jesus, Angel Christ. I think his middle name is Herbert

Shandin Pete:

hair Berry, I've been

Aaron Brien:

trying to make that joke work for years. It ain't happening. It ain't no,

Shandin Pete:

you lost me. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

You know how they say Jesus aged Christ?

Shandin Pete:

Oh, yeah. Oh,

Aaron Brien:

what's the age? Herbert,

Shandin Pete:

you gone. You're gone, man, I don't know you anymore. I don't know you.

Aaron Brien:

Who is this person? I don't know you. Mr. Trying to eat sushi on the side of the upscale cafe. You act like you ain't from a gravel road, and I don't know what this is like, what this you've changed. You're a changed. Man.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah? I asked the other day. I said, Oh yeah, see that, that vegan sushi restaurant over there, it's pretty good.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, you're done. Yeah, you're done. You're done, dude,

Shandin Pete:

oh man, yeah, I'm done. I've had it. Yeah, I'm done,

Aaron Brien:

yeah. Game

Shandin Pete:

Over, game over,

Aaron Brien:

game over. Shall we order in whatever man,

Shandin Pete:

yes, you know me,

Aaron Brien:

yeah, got it used to be, used to be so different. You're a man of the people. What do the people want?

Shandin Pete:

People want nothing from me now you're like,

Aaron Brien:

Lacroix,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, bubbly, get me a La Croix. Abraham, yeah. Get me a Lacroix.

Aaron Brien:

You better, like, get in a fight or something and get some street cred backer.

Shandin Pete:

Oh goodness, man, I don't want to do that. I've been trying to fight some of these people up here, but nobody's no no takers,

Aaron Brien:

no taker. Too polite, too polite.

Shandin Pete:

No, I haven't been Let's wrap it up. Man, alright, we're getting crazy. Yeah, alright, alright, ma'am. Good one. Talk

Aaron Brien:

to you later. You

Shandin Pete:

you.

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Shandin Pete

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