Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast
Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast tackle real issues related to research by Tribal people in their communities. The show is hosted by Dr. Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné) and Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke). Dr. Pete is from the Flathead Indian Reservation in Arlee, Montana. He completed a M.S. in Geology and an Ed.D. in Curriculum and Instruction at the University of Montana. Brien resides in Hardin, MT and the Crow Indian Reservation. He completed his M.A. in Anthropology at the University of Montana. The show includes discussions on matters important in Indian Country, including reclaiming research traditions, highlighting Tribal values and bringing to the forefront issue and current state of affairs in Tribal communities. We aim to uncover the meaning of research methodological approaches that are currently operating in Tribal lifeways with implication for Tribal communities and avenues for knowledge production.
Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast
#63 – Mountain Dew, Cigarettes, and Coffee: Practicing Reciprocity the Old Way - Guest: Terry Brockie
Train Observations and Internet Issues 0:00
Cultural Preservation and Historic Preservation 0:15
Philosophy of Reciprocity 0:30
Examples of Reciprocity in Practice 0:45
Challenges of Teaching and Learning Culture 1:00
Impact of Modern Influences on Traditional Practices 1:15
Personal Stories and Cultural Reflections 1:30
Thoughts and Reflections 1:45
Reflections on Language and Identity 2:00
The Role of Genuineness and Patience in Cultural Learning 2:15
Guest: Terry Brockie (Aaniih)
Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), (Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné).
How to cite this episode (apa)
Pete, S. H., Brien, A. & Old Bull, S. A. (Hosts). (2025, May 20). #63 – Mountain Dew, Cigarettes, and Coffee: Practicing Reciprocity the Old Way [Audio podcast episode]. In Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast. Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
How to cite this podcast (apa)
Pete, S. H., & Brien, A. (Hosts). (2020–present). Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast [Audio podcast]. Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com/
Podcast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tribal-research-specialist-the-podcast/id1512551396
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/1H5Y1pWYI8N6SYZAaawwxb
X: @tribalresearchspecialist
Facebook: www.facebook.com/TribalResearchSpecialist
YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UCL9HR4B2ubGK_aaQKEt179Q
I don't know about you, but
Aaron Brien:trains going by this Aaron is
Shandin Pete:typically running behind in late,
Aaron Brien:trains going by.
Shandin Pete:But this time it was me, What time does the train go by? It goes by right now, 910, eight, 1008, is that? Is it always 1008, or is it because we used to do that, the train used to go to our through our Lee, and it was on time all the time. So when you hear the train at night, you know, Oh, it's getting to be whatever, whatever time better go home.
Aaron Brien:Well, now I don't know. I don't know, because there's no more coal running through here. So it used to be every two hours there was a train, a train. But now they're, they're not, they're not there,
Shandin Pete:pool train.
Terry Brockie:Yeah, I grew up like, two blocks away from a train track too. You kind of get used to it,
Shandin Pete:yeah, yeah, you miss it when you don't hear it, ain't it? Yeah, wake up at night. The heck? Why is it so quiet? Yeah, pretty good, man.
Terry Brockie:Pretty good. I don't have no headphones, no fancy mic here,
Shandin Pete:no, he's but you sound great. You have the voice. Okay, it's the voice. It's not the mic. Have a voice. Aaron's been struggling.
Terry Brockie:Yeah, face for radio, though you
Shandin Pete:face radio. Aaron
Aaron Brien:always hit or miss on the on the internet.
Shandin Pete:He's got, he's got that border town, border town internet
Aaron Brien:reservation, fiber.
Shandin Pete:I know it's we had some decent presidents or leaders in the past that got that fiber line right in the heart of the rez. Yeah, you just got, but them border towns, and I kind of feel sorry for them. They don't get nothing.
Aaron Brien:Well, it was a grant. If they had to apply for the grant, you know,
Shandin Pete:I mean, what are you gonna do? It's a grant, man, Grant. I'm gonna, I'm gonna play you guys a song here. Um, where the accident? Okay? I want you to listen to this. We had to write a grant. I'm gonna, I had to write a grant to get some good fiber in our league, because where we are sucks, man, it's bad.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, our Lee's got bad internet,
Shandin Pete:bad, I think, because it has to take that turn there, you know, yeah, clouds, that's the turn. Yeah, it's that inversion, you know, comes in, and I don't know what it does, but, yeah, just it's not like, it's not like it used to be when we had that, the dial up, I was reliable. It was reliable. It might been slow, but is reliable. You knew it'd be slow. You didn't count on it being fast, but you counted on it and it came through. What was that annoying? What was that noise? You know? What was Where did that come from? You know that those little clicking and beeping noises? What was that was
Aaron Brien:a internet converter,
Shandin Pete:internet catalytic converter, yeah, I know what that was. Noble
Aaron Brien:Cadillac converter. I don't know what it was. Apparently it wasn't funny, that's for sure.
Shandin Pete:Well, you cut out. We couldn't hear what you said. Your internet was a funny joke. Maybe that's for the better.
Aaron Brien:They have saved it, actually,
Shandin Pete:yeah, let's not hear it. Okay? The song I ready. Here it comes. Can hear that?
Terry Brockie:Yeah? Hey, I that's pretty cool. Love those Ladies during that time.
Shandin Pete:Love them ladies. E, pretty good. Eh, pretty good, eh, just like when you go down to the gas bar there and you see some gophers, that's my, my lower Saskatchewan accent. It's not very good. I'm working on it. Okay, well,
Terry Brockie:yeah, you both got it.
Shandin Pete:You both got it. I just learned that there's a I learned that I've been saying pasta wrong all my life,
Terry Brockie:really,
Shandin Pete:yeah, how do you say it,
Terry Brockie:pasta?
Shandin Pete:You say pasta, right? Aaron, Aaron
Aaron Brien:yo,
Shandin Pete:pasta,
Aaron Brien:pasta,
Shandin Pete:Yeah, apparently that's wrong. According according to the Italians and Canadians. It's pasta. Pasta, pasta. Anyway, nah, yeah, I'm not
Terry Brockie:playing, you know, hey, pasta. I
Shandin Pete:uh, pasta, past the mic. Yep, past the pasta. Yeah, that's pretty good. So yeah, that was um, apparently Hayes singers, Yep, yeah, I don't know. You're dumb. Don't, don't come at us like that. What? Well, okay, I'm gonna give you a chance to shine. Go, what froze up?
Aaron Brien:Okay, I have nothing to say.
Shandin Pete:All right, I didn't shut up. So, yeah, haze singers, I imagine that's probably 70s, yeah, go
Terry Brockie:ahead. No, I was just saying there was a, there was a lady came through and recorded a whole bunch of tunes. I got a lot of recordings of them singing, oh man, ring tail around, you know, jiggy, just all kinds of stuff that sounds like, yeah. I was thinking even like, like, like, I remember old Bobby, you know, he not just stayed on astounded, but he, I always remember him just damning at my when my grandma passed away, over the grave, you know, just hanging it up there, you know, oh, yeah, just that style, that of that era, yeah, yeah. There's, like, my board found some stuff on the internet, and it was like, from MSU, pow wow, from the 70s, I don't know if it was on YouTube, and it was like, all that that was just kind of the style, yeah?
Shandin Pete:No, no rolling. There's no roll. Yeah. It's just ah, like a air raid siren, and it just goes right up there. Man, it's awesome.
Terry Brockie:They kind of have one lead, and then then everyone was, then they'd all come in, kind of one, like one would lead, and then their second lead, almost sometimes, yeah, then they'd come in, yeah, today in the contemporary world of powwow, all
Shandin Pete:good. Though, all right, okay, yeah, gotta put that disclaimer. But it's all good. I like it,
Aaron Brien:though, but it's all good. It's all good, it's all good. Like it. I like it,
Shandin Pete:yeah, so, um, we brought you here tonight to um, talk about some things, man, that's been on our minds. Yeah, we're, we're at episode 6063, I think. And we talked about a lot of things in the last 63 episodes, and it's always good to hear on fresh perspective on the matters that confuse us or confound us, but from what I hear, you and Aaron have a somewhat of a relationship. Now, don't get me wrong. Don't twist it. Don't twist the word relationship. I want to put a disclaimer out there right now.
Aaron Brien:Why? What's wrong
Shandin Pete:with me going with this? I should, let me, let me disclaimer that working relationship. There we go. Sometimes it's just one word, working relationship. You both are involved in historic preservation work in some manner. Is that? What's that? A good summary, or no, like solidly, and that's what he does. What do you see?
Terry Brockie:I'm just kind of a nerd of our own culture, I guess you might say of my tribal owning and just always, you know, thinking about how, yeah, our language. You know, I teach language at our tribal college and talk to public schools, and so what creates philosophy and talk and history and on and on. We're always having a running text now and then.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, so, okay, I'm getting idea here. So Aaron clearly does Tribal Historic Preservation, which is a, I don't know that's like a catch all. Wait, no, no, no, there's like an official duty that you have, right? You're not, you're okay? Yeah, what
Aaron Brien:my job is to advocate for cultural resources on federal undertakings, officially, that's my official job. But advocate for cultural okay, I'm sure you figured out that, yeah, but I'm sure you figured out that preservation officers kind of become, like, this clearing house, kind of like a, they become this unofficial thing, yeah, yeah. Like, a go, pass through even, like, yeah, yeah, okay. I mean, because there's things I'm working on right now, or that I'm that I'm involved with that aren't directly under the definition of historic preservation, but they're definitely cultural preservation efforts. You know, yeah, because sometimes with our office, we have the political pool that sometimes culture needs to get pushed over the edge. So sometimes, not all times, sometimes we can get in the way too. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, I say we, but I don't mean me, because whatever, you're never in the way.
Terry Brockie:And that kind of i i see that same capacity with his colleague here at Fort Belknap as well. And really like, I guess for me, I'm more kind of involved in, kind of the traditional cultural aspects of of multiple things. I mean, just always and stuff like that. So yeah, we've always had good discussions when we cross paths and visit and and text back and forth now and then, yeah, it's good,
Aaron Brien:okay, I'm getting it. I think the efforts, the efforts, the goals, are the same. I got into this work because of just love of culture and wanting to be involved in culture. So yeah, everything is my hobby is culture. My My practice is culture. And then now you could say my profession is culture, you know, so you can't do preserve, historic preservation work without loving culture, you wouldn't be able to do, I don't, I guess, I don't know how you could.
Terry Brockie:Yeah, have some level of Yeah. Practice. Sorry to interrupt, but yeah, that's kind of how even I look at it, even just being like a teacher at our tribal college, you know of the language and you you can't separate your culture from your language. In my world, that's all I look at each you down all kinds of paths, be it stories, historical stories, world stories, it could be. Could be songs. It could be. It could be philosophy. I mean, just all kinds of stuff, ceremonial aspects, you know, just all kinds of stuff. And, you know, I think even what I see, even just with our own in our own preservation, is it's not always just preservation, but it's also perpetuation as well. To, you know, is to to, you know, kind of keep that those, those those those ways, continuing on. And so I see that with like, like Mike Black Wolf was our typical officer, and, you know, he's very involved culturally, too, as well, kind of Yeah, same way. So they describe it the same way as Aaron did. Okay, I'm getting a good sense of what's going on here now. What I'm just sending on, come on, man,
Aaron Brien:this is when Sean Dean doesn't know what he's going to talk about. He does. I is.
Shandin Pete:I mean, that's true with almost every episode, man, I come in, come in completely cold, and I'm like, let's go.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, 95% of our episodes have been like, we we're just gonna talk and see what happens. You know,
Terry Brockie:that's us as Indian people, though. I mean, how many? Yeah, very rarely ever see like a native person get up with a big written form, you know, and then have this big speech out. It's like we're oral people, you know? And, yeah, I think we carry that a lot of ways. And, yeah, just, you know, ad lib as we go and throw humor in it, like we're doing now. You know, do
Shandin Pete:you ever do, do you ever have that one friend that you kind of know, and you, you want to talk to him about something real deep, but you just can't get them man. They just, like, they blow you off. You know, that person like, Oh hey. What about this? And they're like, Oh yeah, yeah, that's cool. No, but what about, you know, when, when they say that, Oh yeah, yeah, that's Yeah, that's cool. Well, no, no, I'm wondering what you think about it, oh yeah. And then they start talking about something, like, totally unrelated, you know, like, those people need a written form, like, you got to put an agenda in front of them. Here's what I'm going to talk to you about, focus, Dude, get off your phone and focus. You know, that person? Are you? That person? Sometimes
Terry Brockie:my wife would argue that I'm on my phone all the time, but,
Shandin Pete:yeah, yeah,
Terry Brockie:pretty darn addictive sometimes.
Shandin Pete:Oh, yeah. So you know the kind of work that I do, I'm I'm really interested in. Aaron can cut me off, because I talk about this thing a lot, and I know Aaron's got something maybe he has on his mind. But you know, there's this, there's this dilemma that we face in the work we do, whether it's Tribal Historic Preservation or the work you do, you know, where you're in your in among your people, trying to, you know, bring things back and revive language and those kind of things, you know, I'm always real curious about, like the root or the core things that guide what we do, the philosophy of how we do things. Now, I'm not going to, I don't want to compare how, how we in the tribes in the Rocky Mountains express what we do and how we do it. I don't want to compare that to like the traditional Greek philosophy where, oh, they there's always the Go To quote about Aristotle or whatever or whomever, and there's volumes of books written about it. But I find it difficult sometimes to communicate to non Indigenous people and and also our own people. When we talk about philosophy and say, Oh, it's the, it's the philosophy of of our of our people, and then there's, there's a lack of substance that goes after that. You know, it's just like, I'm going to rely on this word, and it's going to carry me through whatever I need to do. But there's sort of a lack of evidence or detail to to exactly grab onto to understand some things. So one of the things I've been focusing on, and maybe you can. Comment on this, this idea that is quite the buzzword in academic scholarship, especially indigenous academic scholarship, but this idea of reciprocity, and it gives it gets used quite often, but it's rarely described in in detail that I feel captures, really what that word means in our in our communities. So I'm curious what your take is on that, on that particular word, like reciprocity. I mean, even in the term is I'm saying it in English, and maybe that's sort of one of the first problems. But what's your take on that? I think Aaron should tell me what, whether, when he Googled reciprocity, Google it up for us, Aaron,
Terry Brockie:I'm not a sometimes I can use some big words, but other times I don't. And I mean, when you think about that, reciprocity is what a kind of giving back and redoing things, in a sense, is that,
Aaron Brien:yeah, yeah, reciprocal just means reciprocal, like I got you, yeah, there's, there's, there's direct reciprocity, general reciprocity, negative reciprocity, spiritual reciprocity,
Shandin Pete:yeah, Aaron's fleshing some out right now, and You don't get that ever, yeah, rarely get what what he just did. If I picked up an article from a leading or emerging indigenous scholar, they're going to use the word reciprocity, but I think not in the detail, even in just the few things that Aaron said just now.
Terry Brockie:Yeah, I Yeah, well, I'll take a stab at it. I guess
Shandin Pete:I like that. I like that demeanor, man. That's like, that's the demeanor. I'm gonna just go for it. So let's, let's give one example first, and then maybe you can help. So Aaron said one thing, direct reciprocity. So that's like, equal chain, equal exchange of things. Like, I
Aaron Brien:mean, yeah, direct reciprocity turns into the market system, yeah,
Shandin Pete:I change your tire today, you change my tire tomorrow. No, that's general reciprocity. Oh, what did I say?
Aaron Brien:If I change your tire, you're gonna pay me for it. I know. What did I call that? Though, you said, if I change your child to tire today?
Shandin Pete:Oh, I said, direct, I'm in general, I'm sorry, General, General
Aaron Brien:reciprocity, okay, and to kind
Terry Brockie:of set the baseline when you hear that,
Shandin Pete:yeah, I think his internet
Aaron Brien:neighboring you come to my branding and go to your brand, yeah, no, go ahead.
Terry Brockie:When you hear that in the world of kind of indigenous academia or whatever, it's like, you're looking at it like, like, how are they using it? Because I haven't read in many papers about it. You know what I mean. So when you can, you give me an example of that, and then, then I might kind of have a better understanding how to comment to that. Well, I think, well, I I'm not necessarily speaking of anything in particular. I'm just thinking about like, what are the, what are some of the ways in which things get exchanged with not an expectation of getting that exact thing back, or even that thing in the same quantity or on the same pathway, but like the various pathways in which we cast something out in the world and Have and and and know that something's coming back. Yeah, we can hear
Aaron Brien:you. Okay, so, for example, like, if I was to share a story with somebody with Terry, and Terry's wants to use that story in his life, like, in any way, the rule is, is you gotta pay for it, like you either feed me or you'll give me a gift. Or, you know, you know, you always hear people talk about giving tobacco, things like that. That's not direct reciprocity because, or that's not how you're that's, that's reciprocity, right? It's the idea of pain for something, are you? It's, it's a reciprocal relationship that, sure you're gaining something intangible, you're trading something tangible. Now in native society, that would we, you could make the argument that that's direct reciprocity. In anthropology, I don't think that would be considered direct reciprocity, because you're not, you're not, it's, it's, it's an intangible. Were a tangible, right? You're, yeah, you're exchanging. So the way we the way it should be defined, there's never been like a native scholar to like, write on reciprocity and just reciprocity, like, what it means, how it's used in communities, and give like, real examples of it. So we just go off with, like, the anthropological definitions, what doesn't necessarily fit. It doesn't totally fit all the time. You know, because, like, spiritual reciprocity would be like fasting, right? You would go and fast in the hopes to receive a dream or something like that, right? Like, but you're, you're literally exchanging your fast for something. I mean, who knows what, right? And a lot of times, of times those things are pretty, those are pretty personal things. So you might, we might not ever really know unless it's shared with us, but, but it's, it's a, it's a physical payment for a spiritual commodity. Well,
Terry Brockie:that kind of stuff is, I think, is, is is very common in Indian culture. I mean, almost sometimes it's, it's, it's, it's a norm. I mean, just like he talked about, I mean, when you think about just anything, I mean even, like, a good example would be like, Honey custom would be to go and go seek out an elder and bring them gifts, feed them, you know, if you're going on something great endeavor. And the idea is, is that maybe they've been gifted long life. See, there's been in the concept, there's reciprocity between the creator and giving them law old age, right? Back in like, you might say, the buffalo days, right? But you can still carry that practice on today, because when you think about the life expectancies of Native Americans compared to me, maybe Caucasians, or that's still very prevalent, you know. I mean, I try to teach my kids that, you know, like, like, you know, to to, you know, teach them to put stuff in their hands, you know. You go, give it, you see, and start that reciprocity, just like he said. I mean, that would be a good example of fasting, or any kind of ceremony that you'll you'll have that, you know. And I think maybe, depending on, maybe the tribe. I'm just like, good, a good example is going around the powwows and just going to powwows and seeing how different tribes do different, different, you know, things some, some like, bring, you know, a whole big tarp wrapped up in a pickup and backup in their giveaway and, and again, it's that that, that form there as well, where some might say, oh, we'll just have a dad special, we'll give money away. You know what? I mean, some are, are, you know, they're, they're, they're not very wealthy in the Western world, but yet, they're, they're, they're rich in Indian way, you know, because they'll, they'll, they'll then disperse out. So it is it, I think it is prevalent in our Indian country. I mean, it's, it's something that is, is been practiced, I think, for a long time. But I think when you lose your culture, and you and your culture starts to get watered down, like, like an example. This is an example of a elder who, one time at a ceremony, he said, you know, like, you know, like, like a person might have to get doctored for those payments back in the day, you know. And so like today, we go to IHS and and through our the treaty obligations, we can go get seen. But when we go traditional way, maybe, you know, he'd, he'd always say, is your life worth one cigarette? You know, we I mean, but you know, there's a lot to that, yeah, yeah. So I mean that like that that, you know, and when you you have systems that, that may, you know, alter that from a traditional aspect, maybe you don't have that what, what it's worth to you. I mean, you know, if I come and I go to a ceremony, for example, and I'm sick, you know, I'm going to give and give and give and give because I want to live right? Yeah, and but then you can't fault someone. Maybe they don't understand the customs, maybe the protocols that go with that, that maybe, or even our family around us doesn't rally behind us to do that even to contribute, you know, from a communal standpoint. So you see those, those various factors, where you'll see someone come in and, boy, they, they, they give, give their best, you might say. And yes, that's then that's even, that's relevant to whatever. We always hear that in our you do your best, you know, yeah, well, that best might, in their eyes, might be just this much, and to them, it's their best. Where to another person, it's real abacus, large. So I see that, you know, varied. It's we're not homogeneous. I always use that term all the time. We're not homogeneous anymore. As Indian people, you know. Mean, I mean, really good. It's a good word. That's a good word, you know, that's a
Shandin Pete:good word. It's a good word. This guy had, I had to define that word for him. I didn't know what's back. You've been reading it on a milk carton for all your life. Dude, homogenized. Hey. Well, let me, let me walk back, because this is an interesting one that that I want to talk about. So this, this form of reciprocity that you mentioned. So you, let's, you, Terry, let's, let's say you have a son. You do have a son, and you want something. And we've talked about this, Aaron and I in a couple episodes about this, this wishing on things you know. So you want your son to live long, have a long life, so you seek out someone who has lived a long life, and you feed them and in hopes that that person's attributes or qualities, transfers, transfers to your son. Well, the pathway, the pathway is, is from you to the person with the attribute, and then the pathway goes from the person, I think to this to your son, but not immediately. Or we don't know, right? We don't really know. We don't know. That's where sort of belief comes in. We say we believe, because we've been accustomed to do this in this way for many, many years, that this will come true. And I'm not sure that if that really fits into the categories of reciprocity as defined by academia, that's and I'm not sure maybe it does, but I'm just not a good student in that the philosophy of reciprocity yet. But this is interesting one, because it's not immediate. It's not immediate, it's a long term commitment, and it might be compounded with a continuation of that practice, up until that your son reaches a certain age, then you're just having faith that all that work you put in will slowly come back to that to your son. Yeah, that sound about accurate?
Terry Brockie:Yeah, no, that does. That's, I mean, I mean, I just think of like, like, and then it can be like, dual, reciprocal, maybe because, like, I'll give you an example. Okay, we're for, I went. I went and I worked with an elder who was actually a Centurion at the time. She was the oldest lady in Montana, spoke real good Indian. I'd go spend time with her. That a brand, a Kellogg grant, or something, kind of a learner, apprentice speaker, learner type of thing, yeah. And I would order, and, you know, I was really lucky in the sense that, you know, I'd leave, and either she'd sing for me or she'd pray for me. And so she would and then on top of that, not only did she teach me about language, she taught me about the culture, she taught me how to be. I mean, you think about a person that lived to be 111 years old. I worked with her till she was about 106 and, I mean, this is like four days a week, three days a week. I'd be out at her house for six or seven days. Real sharp mine. And she taught me to be like, kind of, I mean, you think about all the things she saw. I mean, invention of a car. She's born 1897 at the time, you know, car, microwave, a phone, a cell phone, computer, TV, all, I mean, was married a couple times, lost children. I mean, just Yeah, and taught me to be a good, balanced person. So in a sense, you know, I always tried to, from what just my observation of her, I always tried to model that to my children. And, I mean, so it was like it came to me this way, and then from her, and hopefully a little bit of that I'm, I'm passing it on to my children, you know. And so it could even have a rippling effect, yeah, in a sense. And so, you know. And those are just good customs that that she modeled to me every day, you know, and yeah, and so that, I think that that's a good example of that, you know, like, of what I was talking about is because, like, I don't know right, wrong or different. But at that time, I was like living on the powwow trail. Yeah, teach at the college one class, and I go out there and work for $10 an hour, for 10 hours a week, and and for about two years there, I was almost unbeatable on the power trail. Not to be it would just add Good luck. Good luck. He had that. Yeah, old lady praying for me every, you know, every day, and, you know, and trying to do something good, you know, yeah, and no, and I think that just that's kind of, in a way you might talk about wishing and good luck. That's reciprocal, in a sense, yeah, that's the way I look at it.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah, there is. There is a type of reciprocity that captures somewhat of that, that idea called Third Party influence. So you know, you're, you're, you're getting influenced by someone, or you're doing something that's going to influence someone else to to be like them or have their attributes in a certain way. So that one is somewhat described. The one that we chat about a lot is like the one I just mentioned, except it's, well, I guess it's somewhat the same, right? Where, like you, you visit somebody that's sort of the give, right? You're visiting somebody that's the give. You're giving them your time, and they'll give you their time. So that's sort of equal, right? You're given sort of this equal, reciprocal exchange that's pretty direct, right? We spend an hour together, we'll eat together. That's pretty reciprocal. But in that exchange, they're they're doing something for you, they're wishing upon you. And how they do that, and where that goes. That's sort of the the mystery, you know, the mystery of the of the spiritual things that we do, and that that pathway can be highly variable depending on that person and how they achieve or construct their their prayers to see it through, to get back to you, that's when you don't find described often. But I think those are the ones that when indigenous folks are writing about these things, those are the ones that seem to be operating to to impart the things that they're taught the impart change that is is not described. And can we describe those? Or, or or should we? Yeah, I'm not sure. Well, tell Yeah, tell me your thoughts. I'll
Terry Brockie:give you an example, like, like, like, I was visiting with an elder and was talking about protocols. And she works, she's like, a cultural advisor to the to a kind of a mental health type of clientele on a reservation, and, and, and, like we, she wanted me to present to, you know, her clients about protocols, you know, just in general, protocols and So, like, like that scenario you put up there, we go visit someone, you know, and in time, you know, time is like so influences us today. Just the clock going around, you know, we start here we finish, here. Got to be here we work from this hour to that hour and time just, and we're with Indians. You know that, you know, the sun rises, it's in the middle. It's getting low, it disappears. And descriptive, spatial world, right? And so, like, like, even that scenario, like, I was teaching them about, like, like, just the general use of tobacco, in the sense of, like, putting it down, you know? I mean, you might not even you might just bring a meal to them. You maybe you're kind of seeking out that reciprocity for some aspect, whatever it might be, you know, it could be spiritual, maybe a song, there's singer and you want to learn from an older singer or something. Or maybe it's a woman wanting to learn about woman things. And I was telling him about, see, let's visit, do just what you said, you know. And and you know, our elders, they know, those people know that you're coming for something, you know, you bring a meal I want to feed you. And, you know, and then just talking about, you know, like putting tobacco down on the on on the table in front of them and saying, you know, I'm bringing this tobacco, and offer you this tobacco, instead of saying, Here, take this tobacco, you know. And just like you know, because you don't know what kind of commitment maybe that person has, you might they might not have the knowledge that you're speaking you're seeking. And so I was trying to explain to them, you know, about being patient and visiting. Visit, you know, enjoy the company of one another, just that. Yeah, reciprocity of being friends and community and visiting, and then eventually, after you eat and you visit, catch up on things, then they might even tell you, so you know what, come here for someone, what you looking Oh, I have to stop an underwritten everyone kind of, and we've all probably been in there. It's kind of this unwritten script that, like, just like you said, I. Damian wants to point to, but you can't really, yeah, you can't really. There's a certain moment that, okay, we've we've visited, we've ate, we drank couple coffee and might have been 45 minutes, might have been 15 minutes and might have been two hours. And now you get down to business, you know, what the what a person might be visiting. So I was trying to explain to them, to, you know, be patient, you know, and don't let time affect things, yeah, because, you know, just just, I mean, when most tribes, you know, feeling something that's about as sacred as you can get, you know. And, and so those are just examples that I was trying to explain and convey to them about the uses of tobacco in a traditional way and yeah, protocols, but it does. It leads to that, just like Aaron talked about,
Shandin Pete:yeah, tobacco is not a key. Don't open the door. It's just, it's the beginning, right? It's just, it's just the thing that starts the whole thing, yeah, that's pretty funny. What do you want now, I've been down that road with some individuals. What do you want? You know, you you're chatting them up. You don't want to be rude and be direct, so, yeah, how you doing? You know, they'll get something to eat, eat and chat, and you're kind of lingering and well, what do you want? Finally, come out with it. Okay, I was wondering about this, that or the other. Yeah, that's, that's pretty familiar.
Aaron Brien:I had to that happened tonight. That happened tonight here?
Shandin Pete:Oh, it did when, yeah,
Aaron Brien:before the podcast, yeah, Miranda cooked and stuff. I get a phone call from my best friend grow grew up with me today. I gotta talk to you. He said, My son wants to talk to you. So there I kind of knew something, you know, yeah. I was, yeah, yeah, come up. And the food just got done. They knocked on the door and they came in. And I said, Well, you guys will eat. You can eat with us then. So we sat down and we ate. And you could tell his boy was nervous. He's a middle schooler, oh, he had a fountain pop a Mountain Dew, you know, because I like pop, you know, so and they, he handed me this brand new fountain and a pack of cigarettes. And then I said, Well, I said, Well, hold on, let's eat first. We'll eat and we'll visit. But he could tell he was nervous, you know? He was like, Oh my gosh. So we ate, then finished eating, then I told him I saw Alright, go ahead, talk to me now. And so we did our thing. But you could tell he was like, I think his, his, his, he was maybe practicing in his mind. And kind of what Terry was saying, and kind of what you're saying, like, Yeah, I'm going to ask this, yeah, you know, I'm going to ask this thing, but that'll come, you know, let's eat together, and yeah, and then we'll visit. And we'll kind of go with that. And so he did. He He's graduating middle school, but he doesn't have a name, so he asked me to name him. So I'm going to name him on Sunday, so at his little reception thing. But you could tell he was he was nervous. He was nervous to ask me so but I commended his dad, because he made him talk to me. He's old enough to talk to me. He's old enough to ask he's old enough to do it on his own. And I, and I told him, he I even said, I've, I've seen it too much, where even grown men, people who I think are grown adults, they rely on their parents still to do all that for them. So I was like, Man, that's how you teach people. You have them do it, you know. Anyway, what I'm getting at is just the practice of reciprocity, the idea that he was going to ask me something, the the cigarettes were just kind of a way to start, and I knew. So as soon as I seen him, I knew, then I knew, Okay, we're going to talk about something. Yeah, serious here, you know, yeah. So I'm kind of put my mind in the right place. You know, I don't smoke and but I love Mountain Dew. You know what I mean?
Shandin Pete:Probably he probably better off smoking the cigarettes than drinking that Mountain Dew. Partner,
Aaron Brien:we had this talk earlier today. It's my thing. It's my one thing. You just leave me alone.
Shandin Pete:Alright, alright, get that blood sugar up, yeah, yeah, yeah. There was, there's a older gentleman here that I got getting to know a bit, and I captured him one time, and he knew it. He knew it because I, I was chatting him up about certain things, and he was drinking some coffee, you know, and he's getting to the end. Now, I wasn't done interrogating him on what I wanted to know, you know. So I see what you want, some more coffee. And, yeah, all right, so I get him a cup of coffee, and he's drinking that coffee, and it's getting to the end, you know, of his coffee. And I'm still not done. I still wanted to talk to. To bit more and I see you want? Do you want some more coffee? He said, No, I know what you're doing.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, it's pretty funny stories. There's even stories in the past of people, they would they were going to offer them to pipe for something, you know, to ask for something, and those people knew it, yeah? And they would avoid them. They would avoid them to be like, they're gonna, I know what they're gonna ask me, and you kind of purposely hide from them, yeah, and all that you know right off, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think at least for the crows, I think that's where the offering of tobacco came from. It's not like, it's not offering of tobacco. They used to smoke together. They were going to ask, yeah, smoke, but yeah, people don't smoke with their pipes anymore. In their homes, or, you know, somebody comes in, we'll smoke together. We'll talk about it, you know.
Terry Brockie:So sometimes that's an example of, like, even, I mean, there you go. One thing, it's like, the use of the pipe that way, in a traditional manner, like, so, I mean, like, look, look behind me, look at all these guys pipes as part of their daily type of of being, and yet. And then you look at time, and you compound time to, you know, and the formalities of how we do it today, maybe, you know, and it's, it's like, it's like, like, oh, that's serious. It's a pipe. But at the same time, in a sense, it symbolizes that, if you go back and you think about it, you know, it's, I was talking about tobacco the other day with that group and talking about it even as, like, a like, a manner of like, I'll put tobacco down. Maybe, maybe I said something to Aaron, I offended him, and I might put that tobacco down. Now we're talking in the eyes of the Creator, and so we're going to be civil, you know, and those pathways, that's what I mean. Like a lot of times when, when we were like, I when we're not, you know, looking at that milk carton and being homogenous, I, you know, like, you know, there's different. There's there's Vita rich, and there's dairy gold, and there's fair life and, and that's powder, yeah, there's tan. I Oh, there's all kinds of milk. There's formula,
Aaron Brien:lactose milk,
Terry Brockie:ultra pasteurized. Here we go. Yeah, that stuff lasts forever. But yeah, it's like things like that. I mean, all those little influences that have like over over time. No pun intended have changed. You know, a little bit of it's still symbolism is there, but yet, still, you know, sometimes those time influences that, you know, yeah, or or even, like, loss makes it more serious. Oh, boy, he's bringing out his pipe. You know, bringing a pipe, you know, that serious, where it could be just as serious if I brought tobacco to someone too,
Shandin Pete:yeah? You know, so, yeah, that's really important one there. Go ahead, Aaron, what? Well, it's like
Aaron Brien:now it seems like coffee is kind of almost what the pipe used to be, too. Like a socialist, so there's a social element to smoking with somebody, yeah? So now we just drink coffee or tea or whatever, but if you're John, stiff arm, you drink coffee
Shandin Pete:and smoke. Yeah, that's interesting. I guess. Is this what we're well, I don't know, but I just what you're leading up to. No, we're just going, man, okay, but I want to talk about this because that's, that's an interesting thing, this idea of time, like, the things that you need to talk about should be about as long as it takes, well, I'm guessing, but how long as it takes to smoke that pipe? Yeah, I don't know if that's true or not. But, like, the example I was given about the coffee, you know, there's a cup of coffee we drink that. How many more cups of coffee can I get out of this person to have this chat? You know, like this, like the food. How long does it take to eat that food to get to what we need to talk about, like, these things are like, like, we here talking about, like, this philosophy is time and how we get business done in this very specific context. You know, I don't know what we thought that is about that, but it was, it was somewhat, or I had a thought about that.
Terry Brockie:Well, it's kind of calm. It's kind of like you're talking about, like indigenous scholars writing about these things. And so many of these things that we're discussing tonight are unwritten rules, right? Yeah, I mean, in that form of English, and it's like, like, like, I was using the example of working with that elder. It was like 100 and we had this, this kind of unwritten we knew when we were done, you know, again, we knew that when. Wouldn't, you know it didn't have to. Never once said, Well, I'm done, you know, that's enough for today. Never once did she tell me that she was patient with me. But over time, spend time with someone you kind of know, like, All right, we've went as far as we could. And yeah, and even if you're trying to, Oh, you want another cup of coffee and you're still after it, you know, there's unwritten we still, we know that, oh, he's had enough coffee for the day. You know,
Aaron Brien:you made a good point, though. I don't, I don't know if I interrupted you, but, um, young people that are learning today, because they get everything so fast, you know, yeah, with like YouTube, I noticed the way they grasp knowledge that they really and I'm not trying to be like an old head or anything, but I just noticed, because we're always learning, right? And I remember when I was like coming up, trying to learn, and it was the opposite. I always felt like knowledgeable people and elders when I was coming up, they weren't patient, right? But I noticed it's like, almost backwards now where, like, we're over accommodating to young people now, to where we even can compromise the rules because, but also they're not very patient. They don't like, absorb stuff they want. They want the next thing, right now, right now, right now. And they want, which, I don't know if that's hunger, but it's also like they don't let sit things, sit with them for a little while. Like I learned the hard way, because people are a lot harsher back then they would scold you, you know? Yeah, so I learned like to sit back and kind of chew on things for a while. And that that's hard for me to do because I'm hyper, I'm like, I went, I'm just impatient, not naturally, but I learned. I learned to, like, really relax and kind of let things happen and learn try to be efficient in something and proficient and stuff before I move on to the next thing. And like, where I noticed now, like there's a, I don't know how to say this without sounding disrespectful, but in young learners, there can be a sense of like entitlement to knowledge. There's like an entitlement to it, where, of course, in theory, they have, they have a right to know their own history and culture. But in terms of ceremonial life, their steps that have to happen. And like just because you're the star student in the language class doesn't mean you get the prime seating at a certain ceremony or anything like you. There's things that happen for whoever, whatever beliefs that is, but I think I've been thinking about this because of the education system where everybody is equal and everyone gets to learn. I think it's in a way, tainted how they learn culture naturally, because they're learning culture in classrooms now, because that's happening here, that's happening at flathead that's happening at Blackfeet, I'm sure it's happening at Belknap that, yeah, we've created an artificial environment of cultural learning, yeah, which because we have to, right? That's just what we have to do. But that also means that when it comes time for the real deal, and look in doing those things, that same access can't happen in the same way, not in the same not in the same way, for sure. So maybe Terry, because you teach the language, and I know you're heavily involved in what your community considers you a leader of ceremonial things. So do you? Do you find that that happening in Belknap,
Terry Brockie:somewhat to some extent, yes, and like, I'll use my as an example. I can remember being like, 2830 years old, and trying to sit, like, sit at a high, you know, at a sing, at a sun dancing or something and being out of whack. And I can remember this old elder saying, hey, hit it right, hit it right, you know. And so then I thought I was doing it right. And then he said, Hey, grab that drum. Take That drum away from that kid you talk about stew on. You learn. There you go. You see, I was just trying to help out, but at the same time, it was a good, a good, valuable lesson. You know that that there's an expectation that you keep a good beat, or there's an expectation, you might say it that way, one of the things that I see, like at the the cultural, like at the teaching cultural and the culture in the classroom. I want to like, for example, we started a thread at the college a two year degree to help support class seven certified teachers, right and and I could teach them about culture in the classroom, but when I'm always. Is conveying to them is you need to be an active participant in your culture. And sometimes people think culture is ceremony, but cultures all kinds of things. Cultures you know, cooking traditional food. Cultures you know, knowing your stories. Cultures you know, understanding a giveaway. Cultures, understanding, you know, etiquette at a powwow. Cultures, understanding, you know, why, why? You know, you looking at historical documents and whatnot. I mean, understanding what the symbolism is. Culture is ceremony, but I always tell them, you've got to be an active participant. So for example, like one of the examples that I utilize was this one individual. I knew that they had sponsored a particular ceremony, and so my teaching to them was okay, I'm the student now, and I just started drilling them about that. Well, how come they have this ceremony? What is the history behind this ceremony? Why do you do this in that ceremony? Well, how come the men sit here and the women. I mean, I just start throwing all these arbitrary questions because I wanted to make a point that you in order to that's our traditional way, is to sit and watch, and we learn through observation. I mean, that's really the Indian way, when you think about it, I'm gonna show you, and then you're gonna do it. I'm gonna show you how to make a bow. Now you go make that bow. I remember making my first dance bustle. The man had showed me how to make it. He made one feather, and he said, Oh, this is how you do the feather. He showed me how to do the board. He said, This is what you do, he said, and he made me do one side and I did the other side on the board. He showed me one feather, and that was it. And he was done. Because in his world, it's like, watch, you watch. I'm going to show you, I'm going to show you. And you watch, and then you do it. And it's even like, like, and I even reiterate that through our language, because like niski or Niska and Aani means to do, to do or make by oneself. So the just the act of doing something or making something, it relies on yourself to do that. So it's reaffirmed. And so when you think about today in the in the world of technology, especially in the world that these youth, youth are growing up in, it's everything. It's just like, it's like taking a phone and just scrolling through everything you know and you know, and rolling through it really fast. And again, it's time. See, it goes right kind of back to that concept of time and how it influences our people. And the fact that that you know, to that young you time is like whipping through things instantaneously, where our traditional aspects of so many things, time is like I always use the best word, best definition I ever heard of Indian time was by my dad, and he used to go around and do talks at schools. He said, What is Indian time? How can you start if no one's ready? And that's kind of how it is, you know, if it's just like what we talked about, going to an elder and visiting, well, we're not going to talk about until that person's ready to, you know, reciprocate, you know back that whatever you're getting, the same thing is the same thing there, but are you sometimes aren't, and where some of them are just growing up in it. That's one of the things that I really like about there's a segment in in my tribe here, both on you and Dakota, of young guys about 20. You know young ladies too. They're they're young, in their early 20s, you know, late teens, and they're just in it, man, they they because they've grown up in it, and it's just really makes me feel good, gives me hope, because they know when to like, sit still and be patient. They know how to sit still when they know. They know when to joke around and laugh. But then they also know, like, like, I need to sit still and be quiet because someone's talking or, or they know, oh, this, this, this, this person needs help. I'm just going to sit down and do it, you know, and just just get after it and do it. So on one hand, though, but there's not just a segment of our population here at Fort bot, on other hand, there's, there's some that really crave it, but our trauma, you know, our dogma that was imprinted on our people so much it's the safest places to be far away, you know. And so like, even like my students in my class, I I try to tell them, you know, be active participants. I even tell them when there's something going on, go, go, sit there. It's easy. Watch what men do. Watch what women do. Women certain it's in a certain way. They walk a certain place. Men do the same thing. You go to any kind of gathering, you know, it'd be like going to crow. And you see all the men get out front and they dance in an honor song, and all the women are in the back. You know what I mean? I mean, if you watch from an even another tribe, you can pick up stuff, you know, by just being observant and and when observing it to a kid is like going through a Facebook or a Instagram or snap really quick Tiktok, whatever it might you. Be that concept of time is different, and it has to be learned, and it just has to be learned, and sometimes it has to be learned the hard way, that way. Hey, you're not ready to drum yet, you know, just sit there with that stick and sing for a while, get your beat, and then someday, and I'm still not the best drummer, but I I'll still give her heck.
Aaron Brien:What do you think? Do you think that that, that I, what I, what I'm getting at in my big roundabout way, is, has that affected the way reciprocity works? Then in your community? Yeah,
Terry Brockie:yes, sometimes it does if they don't have good teachings, that I would consider just my own personal opinion, if they don't have good teachings, then, then, then it, then it does, you know. I mean, it's just like, you know, coming up and saying, Here, here's some tobacco. I want you to do this, you know, where it's like, to me, that's, that's, that's, that's kind of a skewed teaching, you know, I just like, you know, instantaneous right now, I need this, and you need to do this for me. And there's, like, that entitlement, yes, there can be some of that. And so the I always look at that is a teachable moment, because if they don't understand that practice, that's when you need to back it up and say, Oh, hey, hold up, you know, here's some protocols this, so you know and you know. And just lay it out to them so they understand that. So the next time they go now, I've learned and you've modeled that you see, and not, not really, necessarily been harsh to them or even, but, but at least, model that practice, just like what you praised your friend for doing he basically modeled that, you know, he modeled, you know, Hey, son, you're becoming a man now you need to handle your business here. Here's what you need to do. And he did it even though he was nervous, he was going through, but he still did it and it was good, and you felt good. And it's just like my dad. He used to always, he never would. He when I if I was around, he never would. He would never, like we had to give money away at a giveaway, or something, you know, to our relative, or something, you know, I was put in my hand and pushed me out there, you know what I mean. And so he taught me generosity, that way, you see. And so, like, you know that that's an example of that, you know. And I try to instill that in my children too, you know, that they have to do it, you know, and and just be patient. That's where patience, I think that's what Aaron I think that's the the thing that like, like, I think that's kind of missing now and then. Sometimes it's just understanding patience, just
Aaron Brien:patience. I could see that
Terry Brockie:and patience that i Hey, I'm a whatever in our language, we say, well off when a family young knife, that's what we call you young guys, I'm sure that every tribe has a name for those kind of young you know, teenage men and women you know, and teaching them that patience, you know, and so, and then there, there is, there is, I agree, you know, Aaron, I agree. There is, like, you gotta kind of pay your dues, you might say, You know what I mean. It's just like, like, like, I I think about like, powwow dancing, you know what I mean, and going to powwows, and I mean traveling all over and I never had no fortune. Five years, four or five years, I didn't matter. I just kept dancing because I wanted to dance, you know? But some people might look at it as like, oh, the competition side is like, Gee, I never win. I never get this. You know what I mean? And they didn't have patience for it where that's not even you're missing the entire boat in my book, you know, it's like spreading, spreading good medicine out in a good way, you know, just through dance and, you know, doing that, as opposed to, you know, then that stuff takes care of itself, because you're always just being a good person. You know, that's just an example. I i wouldn't be analogy that I would use in a long winded answer.
Aaron Brien:Terry, you're testing my patience right now. That's for sure.
Shandin Pete:We're going to take this tobacco back,
Aaron Brien:man, you know how hard it is. Oh, man. But you said something earlier that was interesting. When you talked about even reciprocity being like in the future, like something even like, almost like, multi generational things, that was cool. What brings it up is, I mean, I don't know how much detail you want to get into, but our two tribes right now are right in the middle of almost that very act, something that was given to us a long time ago is now making its return back to your people and and then actually the story of us getting it you. That was even said, remember this, they might want it back, you know, later.
Terry Brockie:And even even, oh, I didn't mean to interrupt, excuse me. No, I'm done. Go ahead, yeah. Well, even, like, you know about that, you know, in sitting there last week, Aaron, and the comment that I had was our ancestors, when you think of reciprocity, they had great foresight. Mm, hmm, cuz, you know, different tribes, that's what I mean, we today. We're, you know, we're, sometimes we take that Western culture influence, oh, you know, we battled these guys. These guys are, you know, they're, they're our enemies, blah, blah, blah. But there's, there's, there's times when you know we were, I mean, most tribes are peaceful people, you know what I mean? And that doesn't always get told, and it's like, okay, well, we're, we're real pitiful, right now, these things are important to us. Whoever those people were, we better, you know, maybe hand them off, because maybe it'll come back again, and our people the time will be right, you know? And I, I just think, you know, like I was telling this young guy, he's about 28 He's got little guy, you know, he talks into him all the time. And I was telling him how least I can say at Fort Belknap, I feel like we're really in like a renaissance, in a sense, and, and, and, and, I think that's all over Indian country in a lot of ways, because I think the maybe our contemporaries, we're a little bit farther away from that boarding school that historic it each time it gets watered down. And there's pockets of our people that are saying, Hey, we're, we're, I don't even like using the word sovereignty, because that has a monarchy type of thing to it, but we're taking back our cultural pathways, and I think that's really, really good because, you know, I always say, like in my classes, you know, you look in a mirror and you know you're Indian, but what does that mean to be Indian, or indigenous or Native American, or first name, whatever we want to call each other, you know, what does it mean?
Shandin Pete:Whatever in my turtle Islanders, turtle, turtle island.
Terry Brockie:But you know, really, you know, that's I try to pose that to them, because I want them. Now we talk about reciprocity, self reciprocity, you see, they mean to reflect on because, I mean, that's what we're when we talk about patience. It's like sitting out there and being an Indian and listening to creation. And you know that everything, if we go back to our belief systems, everything has power, everything has knowledge. And do we can we sit there patient enough to maybe seek out those that that knowledge through observation, you know, through, through, suffering, through, through, you know, patience, all those things, you know, those are, those are things that I feel like our people are starting to regain, and, and, and it's just a small segment, but it's good, because, just like that young kid, he's, he's, he's a father, and he's got about a four or five year old kid, and he's in a great era, to be able to, you know, let his children just grow up in those ways. And that's all they know. You know, that's it's just, it was just like I on one side of my family, a large percent of them are very devout Catholics. And that's good. Nothing wrong with that. That's good and, and, and. And my one aunt asked me, this is when my boys were little, and they asked me, well, so when you going to get them baptized? And I and I kind of had this perplexed looks at her, and I said, I don't know. I probably won't. And then she looked at me kind of perplexed, like, how, you know, how are you how is your kid going to get to heaven if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your Savior. And not to, I mean, and I've just told her, Well, I'm going to teach them to be Indian. Our Indian ways are ancient. I said, I'm gonna teach them, and if they want to get baptized, I'll be right there and support them, you know what I mean? And she was kind of perplexed. And then, hmm, you know. But it made herself reflect even her on and, you know, she was in her 70s, then, you know, and, and so, I mean, that's what I mean, that that even causes us to self reflect on how we want things. And that's, that's good, that's healthy to me. That's even if we have that self reciprocity within us. That's healthy in my world, because I'm, where am I going? Who am I? What am I going to do? Where have I been? What is my you know, gives you purpose. In a sense, it's my thoughts. Anyways, I've you've heard my words and my words are good.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, I knew it. I knew Terry was gonna bring it. I knew Terry was gonna, he was gonna bring it home. You know, I just knew it. We've been trying to get Terry on the podcast since, like was basketball season, and I couldn't wrangle you in, because he talks a big game about culture, but he's just. Like the rest of these Indians around here, basketball first. Yeah,
Shandin Pete:put it all away during during basketball season. Yeah,
Terry Brockie:long as my kids make it through the basketball season, their life's complete, you know? Yeah,
Aaron Brien:because I think there's a whole segment of Montana native people that know you as a ref. Yeah, yeah, you're a ref. And then when I tell them, like, Well, I never even knew Terry the ref. I He was a pretty accomplished dancer, and then I, yeah, I actually would probably know you more as a practitioner of your culture, more now than even a pow wow dancer. You know what I mean? Because that's kind of how I see, see, see you. But it's kind of funny to me, like, how that works out, where there's all these, like, there's Terry the ref. Like, if I say, oh, you know Terry Brockie, and they're like, Oh, the ref, that's still, that's weird to me.
Terry Brockie:Yeah, yeah, I guess, hey, I know you, you're that ref, hey, I'm like, oh,
Aaron Brien:like, that's like, it's like, here's Terry. Terry's worked his whole life to preserve and learn his language, and he was known as a ref,
Shandin Pete:known for that one technical that he called on, the one coach got, got put on Facebook and went viral, I don't know. Yeah, native
Aaron Brien:to our 406 sports. That's what people know you from. Yeah, I know I'm kind of taking over here, Sean Dean, but I want to steer the conversation away to something else a little bit. Is that fine to ask Terry something? Yeah?
Shandin Pete:What? Yeah.
Aaron Brien:Listeners can't see, but Sean Dean just gave me this weird look.
Shandin Pete:I mean, a little while now, yeah, not wrap it up, but no good, yeah, no, no. Go for it. I just have some some comments about what was said.
Aaron Brien:But there's always I'd like to hope, I'd like to think that there's native people that listen to our podcast. I really want to believe that I awesome. And what I want is is for like, people to walk away with something, you know, like listen by listening. And I don't want to be cheesy or nothing, and I've always tried to steer away from that. But language is like a really weird area for a lot of people. For one, it's an acknowledgement of not knowing something. So that's kind of hard for people, and so I don't want to, like, throw all your business out there, but it's not a secret that you learned your language later, right? Yeah. And to me, I think that's one of the most, like, the one of the most amazing things I've ever met in a person is when I when I first met you and John, John and and realized you guys learned your language later. I don't think people know your guys's story. Because I think there's still this belief, like we devalue, and I'm using the greater we people who aren't native language speakers, right? There's this kind of look, look down. So then you got all these young people who are trying to learn their language, but then we don't have a society that's, in all honesty, is fully accepting of them. And so I'm interested in knowing some of those pitfalls that you've run into, or maybe even like strategies to like how you did what you did. Because, I mean, I know people who've been trying to learn their language their whole life, and they just can't do it, you know. And even me, like I struggle with like a crow language. And you could argue that the crow, Crow language has the most resource, right? Like we were pretty fortunate people, but it just fascinates me, because there wasn't very many Gros Ventre speakers when you guys took on this big load. So I don't know, you get what I'm trying to ask
Terry Brockie:if I get you? Yeah, well, I mean, I guess the first thing I want to say is, I'm still learning, and I'll never stop learning. There's, there's, you know, I feel like I know this much. That's how I feel. I mean, there's a gamut. The language is constantly evolving, everything like that. But. For me, like, how I got started, I guess is so I was going to school at Haskell. And, you know, I always say, how, you know, people say, Oh, Haskell, it's pretty crazy place at Party School, blah, blah, blah, you know. But, but for me, I, I always say I went from the bars to the sweat lodge, you know? I mean, I time I was in there, and there were six of us, and everyone spoke their language, and it got to me, and I knew how to say, NIA wall, be nice. What done on Grand grandma, give me some money. You know, I felt real pitiful that day. But I had like, a epiphany, or whatever you call it. And at the time, all my grandmas were fluent speakers, and my grandpa they were fluent speakers. And this is at a time, you know, you know, there wasn't a lot of speakers, wasn't a lot of speakers. And I was like, wow, I have this right in, right in my hand, and I I just dropped everything. I was, like, 22 credits, sort of a degree in ecology, my bachelor's. And I just went home, and it was just like, like it was laid out, like there was this thing in the college, they happen to have this speaker learner, and I was the only one that really, there was a couple of them that hung tough, but in that specific program, I hung with it. And I worked with my grandmothers, couple of my grandmothers, and they got elderly, and then then my one grandmother took me to that lady I was referring to, and there was another man named Elmer main that I worked really extensively for and and then they got really old, and then the college asked me teach. I was like, holy, you want me to teach, you know, but for me, that's what really when you're when you're when you're teaching it and you're speaking it, you know, seven or eight hours a day, and there's one part of that phrase you want to say and you can't say it. What bugs the heck out of you? In so it's just for me, I just want to learn it intrinsically, just just, just myself, because I saw that, you know, that's who we are, and, and, and it's, it's, it's been challenging. I mean, you know, it's like, I totally relate to what you say. You know, it's like a lot of people, you know, because of the trauma, the dogma here at Fort Belknap, like the Catholic church really did a number on our people, you know, you know, my dad said, Oh, in 1955 wasn't cool to sit and so in those realms like that. You know, that's what I mean. It's like, it's a different time now, and I always use, and this is my own personal analogy, and it's just like, I, and I teach this in my class, I say, you know, like in the Indian way, a rock, a rock, is very, very holy. Back deck, you know, back deck. It's holy because it's seen everything on the earth, right? And you take something like a rock, and they would nap at it, right? And that to make a spear point or an arrow point, right? And they nap at it, nap at it, nap at it, nap at it. They get it right to the point where now they can put it on an arrow or a spear, and they can now it protects, now it clothes, now it feeds. It does all those things. But say, I'm right there at the end, and I hit it and I busted it off, and now there's not a point on the end. Now, do I just throw that rock down, sit down on the prairie and say, Well, I guess I'll just die. No, we don't do that. We go look for another rock, get up, and we start at it until and that's how our language is. That's all I I'm always still napping at the language to make my language sharp, because that's what to me. That's our identity, that I mean, you go to Japan, they speak Japanese. Go to France, they speak French. You know, we should be whatever tribe we're at. We should be speaking our language. That's a gift from the Creator. That's our language, what was gifted to us. And that's that explains our whole world, our world as on and then, or whatever tribe you might be, it explains it, and you can involve in it. And that's the beauty that just keeps me going. It just keeps me going because there's, it's like, uh, like Alice in Wonderland. You open a door and there's a door and you got a key and and I never get tired opening that door, because there's always, it's just a Yawkey, and it's knowledge that comes every time it makes more unit Danica a real full person. That's a person that could say that, you know, he's a full person, you know. And so I'm always striving to be that way. And, you know, it's like our own trauma. Sometimes people, they'll, they'll, they'll, sometimes, you know, oh, he ain't saying it, right? Oh, he's not, you know. This or that, or who's he thinking? I mean, but that's, that's our own trauma, even from our people, just like you said, that are that's just their own trauma. And if you understand that, that that's okay, that's okay, you know, it's okay, but we're gonna keep doing this. Because we're gonna keep going. We have to. We have no choice. Yeah, it's just kind of how I look at it anyway, that's just my personal thoughts on language and why it's so important. Explains everything in our world. Everything enforces our kinship, you know, how we are as relatives, teaches us our our morals, our values, our history, songs, all I mean, everything, places, sense of place. It's really, really cool. It's cool. I'm seeing my dad said 1955 it wasn't cool to be Indian, yeah, well, in 2025 it's cool. In my world, it's cool. Podcast about it. Now
Shandin Pete:there's a lot of there's a lot of those folks who think it's so cool that they they pretend Ian's that what it is? Yeah,
Terry Brockie:no, man, we look we look right Pat. We know what genuine is and what isn't. Take a non native teacher and end in school and see how, you see how quick they'll eat him up, or how much they'll accept, how quick they'll accept him by just being a genuine person. Yeah, you're not no, the you know,
Aaron Brien:yeah, that's for sure. Know what
Terry Brockie:I'm saying? That's just Yeah.
Aaron Brien:They just don't last. They don't last. And that even goes for our own people who aren't genuine, they don't last in that they just don't Yeah, yeah. And that's part of that patience thing, because if you're a newcomer to certain things, and if you just keep moving forward, you just keep doing them. People, they they take to you after a while, and then you, then it's, then you're in, you know, but it's, it takes time patience, man, if anyone gets anything, whether you're learning language or ceremonial life or kinship or anything, it takes time and practice. You gotta do it. You have to do it the only way. I kept asking my uncle one time about the Sundance. I kept asking, what about this? What about this? What does that mean? Or what does that mean? Finally, he just kind of got sick of me, and he was just like, you just gotta go in. Just Just go in. And he was right. Everything i i learned way more by just going in than
Terry Brockie:just do that's what I mean by being an active participant. Aaron, that's what I try to convey to like in the students in the academic setting, you know, when you're teaching language, because you teach about culture and and you're not a dichotomy, even in the public schools, you know, like, like, you know, do I talk about ceremony, you know? I mean, you know, because it's separation. Finally, I said, you can't separate it. I just couldn't teach it, you know. And I teach about it, just in general. I'm not going to go into every I mean, but just, you know, this is what this is, and this is the basic things. But you got to be an active participant, like you said, that's just what you got to do. You got to just go in there and sit there even. And people think, Oh, if I go in there, I'm going to have to do something. Well, no, I mean it, just go in there and sit and watch, you know, yeah,
Aaron Brien:that's kind of like arrogance in a way. No, you you, yeah, they're not gonna even bother you. That's like, Oh, if I go in there, they're gonna make me do something. No, actually, Aaron, they might not even know you're there.
Terry Brockie:I We're really 1000 peels of onion as Indian people today. You know what? I mean? It's like, it's very, very dynamic people due to the, just all the instruments placed upon us all the time.
Shandin Pete:You know? Yeah, that was, that's pretty good. That's a pretty good analogy when you're talking about the rock, you know, especially the context in which you said it. You know that rock as a as a witness of them, 1000s of years, if you will. You know that's gonna how you talk about that in a particular way. But, um, no, I
Aaron Brien:mean, we probably should wrap it up. It's 1130 man, we've been going for an hour and a half hour and 15 minutes.
Shandin Pete:Reciprocity is about patience and time. Yeah, not willing to put into work. Aaron, maybe this podcast is not for you.
Aaron Brien:I've been saying, maybe you're not ready.
Shandin Pete:You're not ready for the knowledge. No
Aaron Brien:bad Terry, because he does all the editing. Uh huh. I don't do anything, dude, I I'm just a show monkey. I just show up here.
Shandin Pete:I do that little thing. Ball, yeah, that's all I do. He gets fired up.
Aaron Brien:Yeah? People come up to me. They're like, when's a new episode going to come out? When's the new episode? And I'm like, I I'm like, I have no say in that, because I'm not the one doing the work. So I'm not gonna tell Sean Dean to hurry up. I feel bad. I feel bad. That's why, when I lately, I noticed this when I when we when we're talking, and we get about an hour, hour 10, hour 15, I start thinking of his editing, and I'm like, Man, I feel bad because he's gonna have to edit. This is all for free, man, this is just a hobby. Like, we're just doing this because we like to, we like to talk nonsense, and we like to just banter, if you will.
Shandin Pete:We got some sponsors that help cover the cost, though, that's not,
Aaron Brien:yeah, but you won't pay yourself. No, he won't even, of course, I've even told him, I said, take some of that money and, like, take your family out to eat or something, because we're taking time from you, you know.
Terry Brockie:Well, I quick comment. I just enjoy your guys' kind of organic conversations and topics, you know, always going down the road. I'll listen to it, you know. And, and, yeah, really, we have something like this in Indian country to, you know, just kind of talk contemporary bantering,
Shandin Pete:yeah, yeah. I like it, man. And I enjoy, I enjoy putting in the time. I get to re listen and listen to the little things that I missed when we're chatting. So, yeah, I mean, editing is laborist, but man, I get to get into the details. There's more here that I didn't get, that didn't get to but I know it's late, but this idea of reciprocity and how it's hooked into time is, I think it's a really important one that I've been hearing as a theme and what we're talking about. And I want to, want to think about that some more and come up with, with maybe another, another variant of this conversation. Now we always say this, we're going to have you back, we're going to have you back, going to have you back. And we want to, we want to talk more about this, but I hope I can.
Aaron Brien:I think we do need to have Terry back, because actually, you're pretty easy on the I could tell you must teach language on Zoom. So, because there's Yeah, well, not everyone can do this.
Terry Brockie:No, everyone's been on and then just just, I mean, like in my former job, I mean, I worked from home for two years, and so, like, everything I did was through zoom for year and a half, through COVID. I mean, yeah, and class, I mean, in my former because I, I've always taught adjuncted on in a coda college, you know, I've always, you know, and I teach more classes now that have a little bit more time, but, yeah, it's just, it's just a platform that we have to use today, and that's cool, but it's connectivity too, as well. I mean, you know, we're all over the place right now. Yeah, yeah,
Aaron Brien:in real time, it's pretty easy. I know conversationless
Shandin Pete:Easy. Easy is easy to I just threw a time at you and you said, Yeah, let's do it. It's like, all late. I didn't, let's do it. Yeah, no, easy, man.
Terry Brockie:Well, I mean, I You honestly, you know, I don't know how many times down the road listen to this and it's just like, oh, I I'd be making my own little comment. Well, I'm listening to you guys in my own little mind, you know, people, because it was just stuff I like people that like to think about things. You know, I'd rather, rather be thinking about things than being stagnated and just stuck in a rut,
Aaron Brien:yeah, yeah. And I think we're, I mean, we're not always right, and I hope people don't think of us like experts, but more like, I mean, I think that's the whole point. This started out as a academic podcast, but really, what it what it comes down to, is like we think about stuff too, and just because we're native people doesn't mean we have all the answers when it comes to how we do our research or how we look at our own people. And I think I want, I would want people to know that, that we're not. People would look at people like us and say, Oh, those are the the experts. But I mean, we had to get here too, somehow we we didn't fall out of the sky knowing stuff, you know what I mean, like, yeah, we gotta figure it out. Yeah, I better do some homework. That's fine. No, no, we're not talking Indian time here, ah, jokes, yeah, well, I was, I was on time. I'm just telling you guys I know I was late, yeah, it was me, okay. God, why are you so mad all the time?
Terry Brockie:Not everyone's ready,
Shandin Pete:yeah, I know, yeah. I like that. Yeah. Can't start if not everybody's ready, yeah? All right, partner, we'll see you in a week.
Terry Brockie:All right. Thank you, yep. All right. You.
