Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast
Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast tackle real issues related to research by Tribal people in their communities. The show is hosted by Dr. Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné) and Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke). Dr. Pete is from the Flathead Indian Reservation in Arlee, Montana. He completed a M.S. in Geology and an Ed.D. in Curriculum and Instruction at the University of Montana. Brien resides in Hardin, MT and the Crow Indian Reservation. He completed his M.A. in Anthropology at the University of Montana. The show includes discussions on matters important in Indian Country, including reclaiming research traditions, highlighting Tribal values and bringing to the forefront issue and current state of affairs in Tribal communities. We aim to uncover the meaning of research methodological approaches that are currently operating in Tribal lifeways with implication for Tribal communities and avenues for knowledge production.
Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast
#56 - Native Cousin Chronicles: "She's my Mom's, Dad's, Sister-in-Law's, Daughter's Grandson"
0:00 Dream Guests on My Podcast
7:33 Musical Reflections on Seven Generations
26:05 Complexities of Kinship Rules
33:51 Crow Kinship Structure Clarified
42:03 Crow Kinship Structure and Roles
52:33 Navigating Crow Kinship and Social Rules
1:07:25 Preserving Salish Kinship and Language
1:11:38 Salish Social Organization and Kinship
1:24:00 Cultural Preservation and Social Organization
1:35:10 Secret Crow Function Culture
Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)
How to cite this episode (apa)
Pete, S. H., & Brien, A. (Hosts). (2024, Jul 31). #56 - Native Cousin Chronicles: "She's my Mom's, Dad's, Sister-in-Law's, Daughter's Grandson" [Audio podcast episode]. In Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast. Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://www.buzzsprout.com/953152/15136464
How to cite this podcast (apa)
Pete, S. H., & Brien, A. (Hosts). (2020–present). Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast [Audio podcast]. Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
Podcast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tribal-research-specialist-the-podcast/id1512551396
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/1H5Y1pWYI8N6SYZAaawwxb
Twitter: @tribalresearchspecialist
Facebook: www.facebook.com/TribalResearchSpecialist
YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UCL9HR4B2ubGK_aaQKEt179Q
Website: www.tribalresearchspecialist.com
well, yeah, man, come in, come in, come in hello, hello hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Hello, hello, hello what no yeah I hear that. Yeah. Nope. Nope, I mean it's faint Hello. Yeah. Hello.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, skivity, skivity.
Shandin Pete:No, no, don't do it.
Aaron Brien:Skivity, skivity.
Shandin Pete:Don't do it, man
Aaron Brien:Skivity.
Shandin Pete:Don't do it. Not that, anything, but that word Skivity Skivity is Don't do it. Not that, anything, but that word Skivity is. Anything but that word.
Aaron Brien:Skivity. But is this clear? As long as you can hear me clear, it doesn't really matter, right?
Shandin Pete:Yeah, I mean, it's not great, but it's good. What do you?
Aaron Brien:I don't get what you're saying here, odo, it's yep, yep there you, oh, there you are yep, yep, it's working now you're golden, I'm gonna put some sweats on
Shandin Pete:you're not wearing anything.
Shandin Pete:Thank you, I'm going to go yeah you better put something on man.
Shandin Pete:That's weird, that's getting weird.
Aaron Brien:No, I had regular jeans on. Oh, you had pants on. We went to Billings. We went to billings, we went. We went to billings because my tribe is ancient and still gives me a paper check. Oh, but I make more. Fortunately, I make more than the bank allows me to do to take the pictures.
Shandin Pete:Oh, no, I take the picture yeah, you got like a half the taking.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, you got like a thousand dollar deposit limit on no. I take the picture of my check I have to take it.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, you got like a thousand dollar deposit limit on that or whatever.
Aaron Brien:Yeah.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, that's exactly it.
Shandin Pete:So we're good. Then right, it's like the Wild West man, the Wild West. Oh yeah, you got the Mountain Dew. Is that a tall boy? Mountain Dew, tall boy, tall boy.
Aaron Brien:Miranda got it for me after I said I didn't want one gotta keep that blood sugar up in that red zone she knows my heart. Hey, do we have Tylenol?
Shandin Pete:I'm going to spike that, spike that Mountain Dew with some Tylenol May as well. You know, got to get.
Aaron Brien:You got to get it all, right I took a motion earlier so I don't want to double up on the modis, you know, on the IBEs man, you gotta, you guys gotta get a home home blood sugar test.
Shandin Pete:You guys all go in for one. Okay, and just just check it every now and then, all right we're living, hey, we're living. Yeah, yeah, yeah that's true, man I mean you just let me live dude, you got two kidneys.
Aaron Brien:You know you got two of them spending fake money whatever play. You're up there playing doing the canada thing, yeah, so just let me, let me live things are uh, yeah, things are kind of in a strange way in america.
Shandin Pete:so yeah, you never know what tomorrow is going to bring, you know?
Aaron Brien:are you referring to the attempted assassination of?
Shandin Pete:referring to a lot of things in the political spectrum in America.
Aaron Brien:Oh, ok, so we haven't recorded in a while. Yeah, yeah. It's been a while. So TikTok, you know, has ruined my life Right and the Jojo you know, ruined my life right and the jojo you know, jojo siwa yeah, okay, yeah, what's the deal?
Shandin Pete:did you go down the rabbit hole?
Aaron Brien:oh, I went down the rabbit hole and then. But the thing that I took away from the jojo siwa thing is when they ask her excuse me, they ask her who she would have on her podcast, and it just made me think of us. I don't know why. Like she should say us. No, she said, the way she talks is like this. So she repeats the question and she goes dream guests on my podcast, I don't know why. So I say that all the time now, when somebody says something.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, so I'm like dream guests on my podcast and she's like um, she says let's get crazy. All right, let's, let's get crazy with it, or something. She's like one of my exes, so. But that's not the funny part. The funny part is just when they ask her who's your dream guest on your podcast?
Shandin Pete:and she's like dream guest on my podcast I mean you're um, I don't, I don't, I don't quite know what to say about all that yeah first of all, I don't want you to it's jojo siwa is it siwa, jojo siwa, and you started out the. You started out the recording by saying skibbity riz, skibbity, skibbity riz skibbity riz. Something's up, man, something's up with you.
Aaron Brien:You've changed since our last recording I got my, I got my kids a lot and my daughter's always talking like that. You know, skibbity-riz Sigma A lot of Sigma.
Shandin Pete:What is that supposed to mean? Anyway, I don't know who knows, I don't know. I don't even think they know Sigma.
Aaron Brien:So what's up? You got a recording for us.
Shandin Pete:I do. I want you to listen to this.
Aaron Brien:All right, let's do it.
Shandin Pete:Let's get right into the juice I want you to listen to this recording and I want you to remark you know we're kind of kicking off a season here, a new season.
Aaron Brien:We've never really told people this, but it seems to have worked that way. Huh, where, yeah, we kind of take some time off in the summer, yeah, around the holidays, like it, just so I guess they kind of are seasons.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, I'm going to officially call this our third season and I'm going to I don't know, I don't know Celebratory Anything about it, because I'm just not about that you know Well.
Aaron Brien:The episode is the celebratory thing. The episode is the celebration.
Shandin Pete:I don't know if it's going to be a celebration. We're going to try. But first of all, I want you to listen to this man. Just do it, because I don't know. I want you to tell me, because I don't have a date for this, and I want you to dial in your knowledge and tell me what date to the nearest plus or minus 1.5 years what date this is. Okay.
Shandin Pete:Okay, that's it, here we go. Now you've got to let me know if you can hear this. Here we go, here we go. Here we go 1991, 1990, 1990 well, keep listening, but but yeah, I mean the song. I mean, do you still hear this song today? You'll hear this song from time to time, not often anymore. So by now the avid listener of our podcast ought to dial in the genre.
Aaron Brien:You think they got enough information to dial in like oh yeah, I think if you listen to our podcast you're gonna have quite a bit more information about the intricacies of music. Yeah, at least the basics, like powwow music and stuff yeah then probably what most native people learn now. Yeah. Yeah.
Shandin Pete:So this song is Clearly, cree, clearly, cree, clearly. You could put it in a contemporary category Early yeah, early contemporary.
Aaron Brien:Kind of has that Chiniki Lake, kind of Cathedral Lake yeah.
Shandin Pete:Cathedral, cathedral, lake, cathedral. Yeah, kind of a heavier beat, kind of has that chineke lake kind of cathedral lake, yeah, yeah, yeah, cathedral, cathedral, cathedral.
Aaron Brien:yeah, kind of a heavier beat, kind of almost on the beat chasing you could tell it's like the late 80s, early 90s, because they're still their beat is still how like red bull used to sing when they would sing contemporary song yeah because it wasn't still like blackstone really took off. Whitefish juniors yeah, where is that? Like bam bam bam, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's still kind of you could tell. These are probably like it's like got a little, it's contemporary but traditional influence yeah, yeah yeah, well, this was recorded.
Aaron Brien:Tell me if I'm wrong. Well, I don't know.
Shandin Pete:well, see, I don't know if you're wrong or right, because I don't have a date for this particular um tape. It was recorded at the little shell, which I'm assuming is, uh, north dakota, north dakota, but I don't have a date for this particular. There was no date on the tape, but I don't have a date for this particular. There was no date on the tape, but given that it was on a tape of a particular age, yeah, I think you're like late 80s, early 90s.
Aaron Brien:I'm going to say more like late 80s though, but hard to say, even like Whitefish Bay remember they kind of had that and you know, when it came to like powwow music. I was never into that kind of powwow music. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:It was either. To me it was either like Mandarie Eagle Whistle Old Agency or Blackstone Southern Cree. Yeah, you know. Yeah, yeah, I was never a big Northern Cree fan. No offense to the Northern Cree folk out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they jammed man. When you see Northern Cree in person they're like the loudest drum group I've ever heard. Yeah, yeah, I would say Midnight Express them and Bear Creek were the loudest groups I've ever heard.
Shandin Pete:Oh yeah, they can wail.
Aaron Brien:Them boys can really wail yeah you ought to see it. You ought to see them bring it home yeah, so I don't, I don't know.
Shandin Pete:you know, uh, there's a few of these tapes I've got with um, there's a few of these tapes I've got with that don't have dates and you know, I don't, I wouldn't, I don't, I wouldn't really, you know, and probably the, when these tapes were recorded I, I was just a youngster, so I wouldn't pay any attention to the who was singing. You know what this particular one sound like.
Aaron Brien:So it's hard to identify me, for me to identify which group it is I, I mean, I don't, I just yeah, I don't know, it just sounds like that era. Yeah to me. Yeah, but I will admit, because I wasn't that into power music, I mean because I was like seven, right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, a lot of that came from, like just checking music out. That's older, you know, once you get into it, you like check out the old stuff and yeah.
Aaron Brien:So, like maybe some of these old school cats that listen to the, to the pod here they they might know I don't know, oh yeah, they do.
Shandin Pete:Walt might know, he would know.
Aaron Brien:He would know.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, maybe he'll comment at some point on this oh, I'm sure he texts you, huh. Well, I mean yeah.
Aaron Brien:When's the last time he texted you? When's the last time Walt texted you?
Shandin Pete:Oh man, I don't even know. I have an unlisted number. I'm not in the phone book so it's hard to get to me.
Aaron Brien:He started texting me on June 26. This is what he said. He said heck, these guys should have told me you was going to do a visit about Indian movies. And I said when? And I said oh, the podcast. He said yeah, that would have been fun. End of conversation. July 1st. July 1st, he texts me, yeah, and he says running brave medicine river question mark. I put laugh out loud and he said son of the morning star question mark. I said no way. And he said wild indian eagle, last of his tribe, Iceman, Texas, across the river Rampanui. Two Indians talking Blackstone. He said shake my head, man, Nothing. You're going to have to revoke your status. That's what he told me. But then he finishes it by saying good, podcast, though. I said we could do a part two. And then that was it, and then nothing. That was july 1st and july 7th, grand avenue, war party. Shake my head. I said I. I said we mentioned war party.
Shandin Pete:I thought we did, didn't we, we did, yeah, we talked about war party yeah binger, binger, montana.
Aaron Brien:So anyway, so well, so well if you're listening. We apologize, man, that we didn't. We just talked about movies, we really. It was off of a list, remember we were talking about this list that pop like palacecom yeah something.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, well, wait now, when was that? That was um. You said what? When did he uh text you that in?
Aaron Brien:july text me june, june 26 was the first one. Then the second text was july 1st and the last was july 7th. We were we.
Shandin Pete:We recorded that and released that in september of 2023, so he's got a bit of a lag man he's got to catch up.
Aaron Brien:I know for someone who claims, who claims to be a fan buddy you're behind.
Shandin Pete:That was number 47. We're on 56 today, episode 56. He's almost almost 10 episodes behind. Yeah, come on man. Hey, that's funny that you said, um, you were seven when you started listening to.
Aaron Brien:Uh, you said you were seven when you started listening to powwow music Because, well, my journey started in 1991 when I bought a Blackstone tape. Yeah, I tell that story all the time. Yeah, but you know, I had heard Indian music probably since I was my, I was born, but you don't pay attention and not saying I even paid attention after that 1991.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, you know well but it was always there you know, yeah yeah, yeah well, you know this, um, this number seven, know, is somewhat magical in a certain way, and you know what I'm talking about. Right, the number seven, yeah, really, because you know the idea of accountability, especially in relation to future life and the responsibilities therein. I mean, as Indian people. You've heard this, you've heard this that we ought to consider the seventh generation to come.
Aaron Brien:Oh, yeah, yeah, I feel like though that took took off that phrase, took off the seven generations singing yeah. It seems like it was adopted by a lot of tribes to the point in which I I'm going to say something controversial. To do it. I think it was kind of like um. I think it was like um incorporated into their belief seat and almost given like an origin, even though it may have never been officially talked about, but it seems to be a Lakota thing.
Aaron Brien:Oh, I hear it more with like Lakota people, but I don't hear crows talk about it in a traditional sense. I hear, like you know who I hear talk about it? Yeah, like youth speakers, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, like counselors, yeah, yeah. Anyone who has? An ED. Academics yeah, just academics in general. Academics yeah, I don't. I don't. The great Mike Dolson at Sayers Kootenai College once told me his theory about the seven generations. Oh really.
Aaron Brien:He believed it to be more like. You represent the fourth generation. There's three generations before you, three generations below you that you actually have a potential connection with. You'll know your parents, you know your grandparents and some of us will know our great-grandparents. Well, that's three generations. Yeah, vice versa, that you might know.
Aaron Brien:You'll know your kids, you'll know you, you'll potentially know your grandchildren and even your great-grandchildren. That that makes seven generations. His, his theory, I don't think was founded in culture, but just like kind of genetics maybe. I don't know genealogy okay, but see, I was, I'm on board like whatever, that's cool. What, what's your deal?
Shandin Pete:seven generations well, yeah, you know, I was, uh, yeah, I was, um, contemplating this idea of kinship. Well, let me step back. Let me step back, I kind of been on a, um, a bender, if you will, to try to, to try to to understand some of these um, uh, popularized slogans, you know yeah and and the constructs around them.
Shandin Pete:so I sort of on a bender about stewardship, kind of was on a bender about land. Back then I got on a bender on turtle Island trying to figure out where did that come from, and the latest one was the idea of kinship. And then, like you said, this weird thing about the seven generation and so I kind of went on just a brief, I sort of nerded out on it, trying to find the origins of it. And you know, you have the hunch, just like you said, that was my hunch. I said, well, it's probably, you know, sort of what people call a pan-indigenous whatever, but I don't know if it was grounded in anything. But you know where you find it. A lot mentioned and I think where the origin has come from the iroquois and this thing that they call the oh yeah, you're right yeah, the great law of peace yep and the holding home only in the show d holding.
Aaron Brien:The show me holding this yeah, yeah holding the show me?
Shandin Pete:I yeah holding the show me. You got to kind of say it like half shot yeah that actually helped that yeah, doesn't it?
Aaron Brien:yeah, kind of pretend you're a bit shot, yeah it's been a long time since I've been half shot I'll never, forget it.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, but full shot.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, that was just last night yeah, you know what people always say that he was half shot, like I never went half.
Shandin Pete:I never went half, I was full bore yeah, if you're half shot, then you go to a music festival like a folk festival.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, half shot. What are you doing?
Shandin Pete:Half shot. You hang out on the porch with your bros and play guitar. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:What? Who's half shot? Who's that? I want to meet this guy.
Shandin Pete:Half shot is the guy named Bob who shows up and flip-flops at your house with some pale ale you know what Halfshot Bob can go home, he can drive home legally.
Aaron Brien:He's not here to make bad decisions with Aaron Brin. You know what I mean. He's not. I don't need him around. Oh yeah. I say that, I say that, but I recently celebrated my five years of sobriety.
Shandin Pete:Way to go, man, way to go. Did you get a coin?
Aaron Brien:Yeah, I didn't get a coin. You know I've never gotten a coin, dang it. I was in the wrong coin. You know, I've never gotten a coin, dang it. I was in the wrong program, Wrong program. I was in the wrong program.
Shandin Pete:You got to get your coin, man Anyway.
Aaron Brien:Anyway Odin and Shoni.
Shandin Pete:Odin and Shoni, odin and Shoni and I don't know. So in the writings writings it cited that this was mentioned in the iroquois great law of peace I found, um, some writings about the great law of peace from different angles. Someone even wrote a big old article about the different versions of the great law of peace and I couldn't find it anywhere. About seven generations, anywhere in this iroquois great law piece, at least from at least that predates, like the like, uh, you know, the 1980s, where it starts becoming really popular and in the scholarship, you know. But what I did find, which is referenced quite often about seven generations, is the idea of kinship you know how you're, how you're related to someone, and sort of some of the restrictions related to, I don't know, marriage and those kind of things.
Aaron Brien:A lot of reference to rules yeah, kinship rules and avoidances, yeah, and and the world of anthropology.
Shandin Pete:But yes, go ahead, continue no, no, there's quite a bit and related to that, particularly seven and the seventh and sixth generation, um, quite globally, even quite globally, referencing that. So I'm curious from your, um, vast amount of knowledge, what is, what is your understanding of kinship in terms of, uh, generational restrictions and does it seem, does it seem, to align with this seven generation or plus or minus?
Aaron Brien:I guess I've never really taken into account that, but I do think that kinship in terms of native people and then how people, native people, are researched, yeah, it's like looked over a lot, like it's not something that people really consider, take into account, like. And then I noticed too, and and in the way tribes preserve culture. Yeah, there's so much emphasis on language, which is that's the way it should be, but there's no emphasis on creating an environment for language and where you find where languages thrive is in ceremonial life and social organization. Where languages thrive is in ceremonial life and social organization. Kinship in terms of anthropology is a form of governance. It's how people control themselves. There's a lot of self-governance in it.
Aaron Brien:So this brings us to the kinship rules. Yeah. For example, among the crow. You're not allowed a man is not allowed to speak to his mother-in-law. Okay. And a daughter-in-law is not allowed to speak to their father-in-law. Wait, say that one again A daughter is not allowed to speak to her father-in-law. Oh, okay, okay is not allowed to speak to her father-in-law. Oh, okay. And another thing is like a man, a man's brother-in-law, his wife's brother, he is not allowed to speak or interact with the wife's brother's wife.
Shandin Pete:What Wait? Say that again A man is not yourself. Okay.
Aaron Brien:Let's say Salisha's brother.
Shandin Pete:Okay, she had a brother.
Aaron Brien:His wife. You're not allowed to speak to her. Oh, okay. You're not allowed to speak to her. Oh, okay, you're not allowed to speak to her, not allowed to have interactions. Brother-in-law's wife. Brother-in-law's wife. Okay, your wife's brother, your wife's brother, your brother-in-law, because you know how you can have brother-in-laws Like your sister's husband, right? What is your brother-in-law? Your?
Shandin Pete:sister's husband is your brother-in-law, yeah yeah, okay so, yeah, so your wife's brother's wife.
Aaron Brien:So when, when you start looking at these restrictions and I'm only speaking about the restrictions, right, yeah, so among the crow, when you look at these restrictions, yeah, and these avoidances, you can tell they're designed for camp life, they're designed for people living in lodges, because what they do is they really protect marriages. That's what they're designed for, right, designed for right. So where there's a married woman and a married man, there's rules about them speaking to a man speaking and interacting with another married woman. Yeah, and vice versa.
Aaron Brien:That's where these, all these interactions happen yeah it's interesting because it's hard to place relevancy in them to today. They can be called dated, they can be called antiquated all this stuff yeah, and and there's good arguments for that. Right, yeah, but when you look at the origins of them and living in camp life, it makes sense.
Aaron Brien:It's a form of governance yeah um, but I also think that to the average listener, whether traditional or non-indian, they might not ever consider kinship in its authentic form. So, for example, we get to know each other. People just start calling each other brother, that's my brother.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, that's my relative yeah you know that's my adopted whatever yeah but there's actually rules about how those things happen because of camp life. So when somebody is going to be adopted into a family, that's a family basically saying I'm vouching for this person, they're now part of our circle, right, but that also means they have to adopt those rules and stuff and all that. But anyway, yeah, most people stuff and all that, but anyway, yeah, most people don't know that, right. So they just kind of say, and even people I would think are traditional people don't know, yeah, so like with crows, my mom's brothers, which in American genealogy they're one generation above me, right? Yeah.
Aaron Brien:But they would be my brothers in the Crow kinship. My mom's brothers are my brothers.
Shandin Pete:Your mom's brothers are your brothers.
Aaron Brien:Yep, so when I speak about them, even if they're younger than me, this is what I was told even if they're younger than me, I still refer to them as my big brother, biga, biga, my older brother, my big brother, because they're my mom's brothers. Now I could still have generationally my older brother right, and it's still called Biga. So this can, to the untrained ear, can really confuse people, but this is still practiced by the crows.
Aaron Brien:So, yeah, I have relatives, so my mom has a brother yeah so I call him my big brother, right yeah by crow kinship, because we don't have uncles and aunts and cousins. We don't. His kids refer to me. They always refer to me as their brother. Oh, there's my big brother, aaron, here's aaron. But yeah, that's not true. They're not. They're not my siblings in the crow kinship. They would be my children.
Shandin Pete:Hmm.
Aaron Brien:Because their dad is my brother and your dad's brothers Are your dad's.
Shandin Pete:Hmm, Wait, you lost me there.
Aaron Brien:Your dad's brothers are your dad's. You call him dad. Okay, yeah, got it. So you can't think of so crows. In a way, the generation idea is, yeah, blurred, because it's really hard for people, yeah, to get themselves out of the generational thing. So, like my mom's generation and then all like her siblings, all their kids, to kind of the untrained crow kinship, everyone's oh, that's all my brothers and sisters, all my cousins are my brothers and sisters.
Aaron Brien:That's not true with the crow okay my mom's brothers are my big brothers, so that means their kids are my kids. Uh, it's because you gotta remember that rule your dad's brothers are your dad's, your mom's brothers are your brothers a bit staggered.
Shandin Pete:In a way you could think well, no, it's not even. It's not even that, because the yeah, because in like in the Salish way, that's not the way it is. It's your cousins are your brother and sister out to the fourth generation, or so you call them brother and sister.
Aaron Brien:But is that based on generation?
Shandin Pete:Sort of, I guess in a way so like so like, for example, your mom has sisters right yeah her kids are your brothers and sisters right yeah, yeah okay.
Aaron Brien:Would that be the same for your dad? Yeah you're okay yeah so that's the same. That's the same for the crows. So now my mom's sisters, their kids, are my sisters and brothers, because your mom's mom, your mom's sisters are your mothers. Your mom's sisters are your mothers okay, mom's sisters are your mothers.
Shandin Pete:Oh yeah, so then their kids are brother and sister yep, because in well, wait a minute.
Aaron Brien:In genetics they would be my half siblings, right?
Shandin Pete:yeah, yeah, but going the other way. Well, on the dad side it's different, though you're saying no, my dad.
Aaron Brien:no, it's not what my dad, my my dad's brothers are my dad's, so their kids are my brothers and sisters. Oh, okay, yeah. Where it changes is my mom's brothers. Oh, my mom's brothers are my big brothers.
Shandin Pete:Okay, so it's gender specific or changes by gender, kind of.
Aaron Brien:Here's what I'm telling you, okay, okay, it's all based on camps, gender specific or changes by gender. Kind of, here's what I'm telling you, okay, okay, it's all based on camps. Think of it in camps. Okay, you live with the crows, live with your mother's camp.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, okay, that makes sense.
Aaron Brien:That becomes. That's the clan ship. Lineal ship, clan lineal ship. Yeah, All my clan, everyone whose mother is a big lodge clan member. I'm their brother and sister, so that makes sense. It's all on your mother's side yeah so that means that the generation before me would still be my brothers and sisters if their clan, if their, their mothers were big lodges. Yeah. We're the same clan. That makes sense. So my mom's brothers are my big brothers, because we would have the same clan, right?
Shandin Pete:Yeah.
Aaron Brien:It makes perfect sense. Yeah.
Shandin Pete:We would have the same clan.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, my mom's brothers are my big brothers.
Shandin Pete:We need a flowchart for this.
Aaron Brien:No, we don't.
Shandin Pete:No, I need a flowchart.
Aaron Brien:They just need to learn it. They just need to sit still and listen. It's not that complicated.
Shandin Pete:No, I get it and that makes more sense. What you're talking about now when you say sort of camp-oriented, sort of camp oriented, because you have to know that, that certain bit of information about you know who, when, when people marry, who you generally go with the male or the female.
Aaron Brien:you got to know that norm and normally a boy is going to marry outside of his camp yeah, yeah so, and if you're camping with your mom's family, which is your clan family? Yeah. Because you're all matrilineally from the same clan. Yeah. You're not going to marry those people because they're all your brothers and sisters. Yeah, because your clan. Your mothers are all big lodges, so you go to another camp. Yeah, oh, big lodges, so you go to another camp. Yeah, so to them it's second nature, or it's first nature. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:Because they're just their kinship, Like my. Well, he'd be my little brother, but he's my nephew, right For everybody else. Yeah. Luella's boy. His like kinship recall is amazing. Yeah. Like. That's the only way he thinks is Crow kinship he doesn't have the influence of for one. He never went. He was not a church kid.
Shandin Pete:Right.
Aaron Brien:So all he ever knew was Crow kinship, that's it. So when you ask him, you'll say how are you related to so-and-so?
Aaron Brien:Yeah, ask him they'll say how are you related to so? And so, yeah, yeah, they always call me their whatever. And then he'll he'll say that's you're their dad. Are you there? You're there, that's your father. And then he explains it to them and they're like oh, but because that kinship structure is used by a pocket of people and it's still common, it's, it's also not used by the majority of crow people, so they want to go back to just say, oh, since we're the same generation, that's my brother uh yeah, so like one of my, one of my.
Aaron Brien:We grew up calling each other brother, but he's really not my brother. You know, mike, mike don't mix right Like yeah we're the same age, everything, and but his mom and my dad are brother and sister. Let's see if you can follow this one. Ok, remember that rule.
Shandin Pete:Ok, so wait now OK, mike, mike's dad.
Aaron Brien:Is your. Mike's mom. Mike's dad is your.
Shandin Pete:No, mike's mom, Mike's mom, okay, and my dad, oh, and your dad.
Aaron Brien:Okay. Are siblings, biological siblings, same mother, same father? Okay, so, based on those rules that I told you earlier, your dad's dads, your dad's brothers are your dad's, your mom's sisters are your mom's and your mom's brothers are your big brothers. Just think of this. Okay, what, what is? What is my dad to Mike?
Shandin Pete:He would be, um, he would be his. Uh, he'd be his, He'd be his. I got it. Wait, no, it's not his dad. He wouldn't be a dad, he'd be the other one, and I don't remember.
Aaron Brien:His brother.
Shandin Pete:He'd be his brother. There we go, okay.
Aaron Brien:Yes, because his mom, right. Yeah, mike's mom is my dad's brother. He'd be his brother. There we go, because his mom, right. Yeah, mike's mom is my dad's brother. They're a sister, brother and sister right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Mike's big brother is my dad. So then what does that make Mike to me?
Shandin Pete:That's like your I don't know what term is like your uncle. It's like your dad, my dad.
Aaron Brien:It's like your dad, my dad yeah, there is no crow word for uncle yeah, no crow, word for uncle. So he's my dad, but we're the same age yeah and that's where people get hung up. They've adopted the european idea of seniorities like um age, age grade yeah, yeah, yeah and tribal people have done this yeah we'll be like oh, our elders. Well, what if that elder is my son? Yeah do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that even goes with one generation above my grandma, my matrilineal grandmother. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:My mom's mom, her brothers. Yeah. In the Crow language are called Bigizakia, my old man, big brothers.
Shandin Pete:Hmm, hmm.
Aaron Brien:And again, because they're from the same clan, their mothers would be big lodges, just like my mother's a big lodge. So they're my big brothers. So that means their kids are my kids and they're way older than me.
Shandin Pete:So how far does that go back? Then Tell it, they become not your kids, or does that even a thing?
Aaron Brien:That's not a thing, it's not a.
Shandin Pete:Thing.
Aaron Brien:It can. It can be limitless in theory.
Shandin Pete:Sure, okay, that's what I was, that's what I thought. It seemed like it would be limitless. So what about their? What about their kids?
Aaron Brien:as kids, those are yeah, they'd be my grandchildren oh, the grandchildren oh, okay, okay, then it keeps going down from there great grandchildren yeah but I've never seen it go past three because yeah at that point it's gonna circle back to something else. That means that connection's gonna change. So then you might become their dad, or their own, or their, their big brother. I mean me as a man. I'm only going to be a son a grandson, a big brother and a dad.
Aaron Brien:That's it. That's it. That's all you're going to be. But here's where it gets really interesting For me. What does the? We've talked about my dad's brothers. Yeah, we've talked about my mom's brothers. Yeah, we've talked about my mom's brothers. Yeah, we talked about my mom's sisters, but we haven't talked about who.
Shandin Pete:Your dad's sisters.
Aaron Brien:My dad's sisters. This is where it's interesting.
Shandin Pete:Okay, I'm ready.
Aaron Brien:Pro language, you call that Bahia. Okay, so when they belong, when it's my dad's sister, ish Bahia.
Shandin Pete:I don't know, what that means.
Aaron Brien:You don't know what it means, but because if you go to the clans again, I'm a child of my father's clan, so that means the siblings of my father's clan are now my clan mothers and fathers. So that means my bahia that's the Crow word for a clan mother. Even though it doesn't mean that we don't know what it means, it kind of to me sounds like my abak is possession, like a thing. I mean a thing. Ish is possession, ishpach.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, I don't know what that means, though,
Shandin Pete:so that one's confusing.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, see, that's usually where people get messed up.
Shandin Pete:So let's use yourself, so let's say it again, so your dad's sisters are, say what they are again to you. It's a word that you don't know, ishbahia, but you don't understand the word Ishbahia.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, but it has to mean clan mother. It has to, okay, because every Crow tribal member Is a member of two clans your mother's clan and your father's clan. I'm a clan member, but what you are On your dad's side, no matter your age, you're called a child of Bagada. Bagada, yeah, I heard that. So, yeah, yeah, so I heard that. So that means so that means Anybody, anybody whose mother Is that clan Is your clan mother or clan father. So if it's a guy, it's your clan father. If it's a girl, like my kids, I'm a big lodge, so my kids are my kids are big lodge kids. So that means all of my clan brothers and sisters are their clan fathers and mothers. Yeah, so bahia, bahia, because my sister luella would be my kids as Bahia, right. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:But me and Lou are the same clan. That means that they're going to be she's going to be my kids' clan mother.
Shandin Pete:So to me, bahia is. Well, that makes sense, then why they'd be called the child of Yep?
Aaron Brien:Yeah, yep, so they're that. They're big lodges, big, big lodge kids. My kids are greasy mouth kids. I think, um, well, wait a minute, now is salisha, is salisha, uh, um, whistling water?
Aaron Brien:or what is she?
Aaron Brien:uh, I don't know, I'd have to ask you I don't know.
Shandin Pete:I'd have to ask you. I don't recall, Because in her case her mother is not crow.
Aaron Brien:Pig-an, pig-an so they call it Ashk'yamna or Ash-b'chua, which means treacherous lodges. That's what they are. So because Salisha, mother is Salish and father is crow, she would take the two clans of her father, so she would be a pig. And right she's a pig, and in a whistling water, I think. I think she would be. So that means your kids would be.
Shandin Pete:Your kids are big ends so this is what I don't get, so okay, so I get that, what you just said but you said previously that any of your mother's siblings are what.
Aaron Brien:Those are your parents my mom's brothers are my big brothers oh, okay, okay, okay okay okay, all right, give me a break here.
Shandin Pete:So the mother's siblings are your siblings.
Aaron Brien:My mother's brothers.
Shandin Pete:Mother's brothers are your siblings. What about? Your mother's sisters, my mom's Wait a minute my mom's Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Okay, so your mom's brothers are your brothers, but your mom's sisters are your moms.
Shandin Pete:Mm-hmm.
Shandin Pete:And so your dad's brothers are your dad and your dad's sisters are your mothers. Yeah, but the word isn't mom, Ishbahia doesn't.
Aaron Brien:So that's why, for me, just doing the investigation, it has to mean clan mother.
Shandin Pete:So not necessarily a mother In the sense of your, your mother's sisters.
Aaron Brien:No, because if I'm talking to my mom, I would call her Ikea. I would say Ikea, ikea, right, yeah, when I go up to my mom's sister, when I address her, I call her Ikea. I don't call my dad's sister. Okay, I say Well, I mean okay yeah.
Shandin Pete:So that, so that that kind of makes sense. But the it's, the it's the sort of the relationship that's probably Of.
Aaron Brien:That that makes more sense, right? Yeah, yeah. So that brings me to like I got I'm not gonna say the final point, but to a major point. Pro kidship is based off of role. Yeah, how you're supposed to treat each other, right? Yeah, so if I say, oh, that person's my son, but even though we're the same age people, I always say, wow, that's my son. It has nothing to do with age, it's not an age-age system. It's just how I'm supposed to treat them my relationship to them, your role and their role.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then, what's the role of the mother versus the clan mother?
Aaron Brien:So that's a good question, man. That's a good question, man. Yeah, that's a legitimately Good question, yeah. So when I was young, one time my mom, my dad's sister, she told me, she One of my cousins, you know there. Yeah. Said Get mad at Aaron. She said that we're little kids, you know. Yeah. And she said I can't, and I was like oh okay, so that always stuck with me, right, yeah? And then I thought well, yeah, as I got older, she can't, she can't discipline me, my dad's sisters, yeah she's not like a mother she
Aaron Brien:can't discipline me, not in that sense, because the Crow belief is that what your parents, what your clan parents, mothers and fathers ask for you, this is a clan feed, right when you? Go to a clan feed Will come true. So that means A clan mother Ish bahia Bahia. Can't do things in anger to you, because what they say For you Can happen.
Shandin Pete:Hmm.
Aaron Brien:So they don't want to lose their temper with you. So they always would say when you go to your dad's sister's house, you can just walk in, you can just walk in. You can go to your dad's sister's house, you can just walk in. You can just walk in. You can go to the fridge, you can eat what you want, make a mess, she'll take care of you. You know, like her own kids have to ask or they have to have chores there, but not at your dad's sister's house, you don't have chores there can lay around you can lay around, you can do what you want.
Aaron Brien:It's different because your clan, mothers and fathers are in charge of your spiritual success, your spiritual well-being. So everything that they want for you, they strive for you, they want you to have good fortune, good luck. They make good wishes for you. Now, on the other hand, your, your mom's sisters those are your moms and and biologically, they're of the same blood as your mom.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, right so yeah, and this is why I think back then it was practiced to marry sisters. It was common for a crow man to marry sisters. Because of that, because they would all still be the same clan, they would all still be of the same clanship. They would all still be of the Because their moms are all the same.
Shandin Pete:Not the biological sister.
Aaron Brien:No, they would marry biological sisters.
Shandin Pete:Really.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, it was real common to marry sisters.
Shandin Pete:Interesting. There must be something to that word, then that sort of describes something that you're talking about for the dad's sister yeah. But you don't know and have you interrogated I don't speak.
Aaron Brien:I don't speak, crow.
Shandin Pete:So that'd be a good question to ask, then someone.
Aaron Brien:I've asked a lot of people who speak Crow and the more advanced Crow people. They'll just say it's your clan mother. That's all they'll say.
Shandin Pete:Don't really break down the word or give it a deeper meaning.
Shandin Pete:Hmm.
Shandin Pete:But that's interesting man, and um, but these days you say that sort of dying off, well kind of, in a way.
Aaron Brien:I mean the fact, the fact that I know it says something right, yeah, and like there there are people who still practice it, where you hear it more as like well, of course, in ceremonies and then in in crow language you hear it, because they don't say uncle and crow, yeah, yeah say oh, that's your dad. Go and talk to your dad when they're talking about my dad's. May he could be his first cousin, my dad's first cousin, but because they have the same dad or the same mom, that makes them siblings, right yeah yeah.
Aaron Brien:But I've also been. Here's the funny part, fun fact. I've been in situations where I've corrected older men who I had thought were like no, they would know these rules I won't say any names, but my dad has some first cousins. Yeah, that used to tease, or try to talk and tease my ex-wife. Yeah. But these are first cousins because their dads are brothers, so that makes them brothers, yeah, which would make that their daughter-in-law.
Shandin Pete:That's a no-no.
Aaron Brien:And you can't even look at them. You can't look at your daughter-in-law. Now you're supposed to sit at the same table with your daughter-in-law and they would. In the Crow language they would always call me but you cut. They'd say but you cut, that means little brother. And for years I was always like that's weird that they call me that. And finally one day I did it. I said you know, I'm not your little brother. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:And they'd be like no, no, They'd tell me no, you're my little brother. And they'll say because of this, blah, blah, blah, no.
Shandin Pete:It's wrong.
Aaron Brien:It's wrong. It's wrong and I said your dad and my grandfather are brothers. Yeah, it makes you and my dad brothers. And then I'll say that, yeah, you're my father. And then they'll look back and I'll say, oh yeah, yeah, they're gonna get mad. You know, like they kind of get mad and I'm like you're always like you're not really supposed to tease like your kids. Really, yeah, not too much, you know yeah, they would treat me like that little brother.
Aaron Brien:And then I'm like I'm not your little brother, yeah yeah, you could tell it was kind of like this, like oh shit, moment that happens, that happens a lot, you know where and and luella's boy is like really quick, he's really quick with kinship, so when people are using it wrong, he's like he's right oh no, no, that's not right. Yeah, he's right on it. And like, yeah, it's kind of fun to watch, you know, because I've even seen like traditional people. They'll be like oh yeah, you're right. Like you're right, that's true.
Shandin Pete:Hmm.
Aaron Brien:You know, and it's pretty neat, because if you want to participate in ceremony, you want to participate in the social functions of Crow, you have to follow that social organization. Yeah, you know, know who you can speak to know who you can't. You got to be really self-aware, because if I have the right to speak in public, that means somebody is going to ask me Aaron, we want you to talk for us at our family function. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:Me as someone who owns the right to speak to the public. Yeah, like if my girlfriend comes up to me and says, aaron, could you talk for us at our my family function, I'm going to say no because the chance of me saying one of my mother-in-law's names are addressing one of my mother-in-law's is likely yeah no, I won't do it.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, you should ask somebody from your mother's family, because there's no restrictions on who he can talk to and everything at that function For me. What if somebody comes up to me we want to give this blanket to and they point at my mother-in-law? I'm like I'm out, I can't do nothing. So you got to be like really self-aware. That also means like okay, well, I got to know who her first cousins are from her mom, from her dad's brothers and her mom's sisters. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:And the same rule applies for her mom's mom. I can't speak to them. Yeah. There's the same kinship rules yeah so you got to know that, you got to be really self-aware. That also means that's why, like a lot of crow, traditional people know families.
Aaron Brien:They'll say so-and-so's related to so-and-so, like this, and they know everybody because it's all centered around the strength of that kinship system yeah who they can and can't talk to and who they can tease and can't tease, right, and so I'm not allowed to tease my brother-in-laws that would be your wife's brothers. You can't tease them, you can't make fun of them, you can't razz them. In fact, if they come into your home, you're supposed to give them something. This is a teaching from the big dipper, right? This is a big dipper story where the seven brothers were teasing their brother-in-law.
Aaron Brien:His name was yellow leggings and the youngest of the brothers, his name was cedar between the eyes Told them, why are you teasing this man? He's the husband of our sister, dear woman, yeah. And then he had a pet lion Cedar Between the Eyes, juniper on the forehead, cedar Between the Eyes, kind of say the same. He had a pet mountain lion. Some stories it's a bear, but he, he gives that animal and he says because I respect what he, what he my, my sister's husband.
Aaron Brien:And he says this is what he's given her a home and everything. We don't have to take care of her because she does or he does, right, yeah, I respect that so much. And he has that pet, like I say, some versions of mountain lion, some versions of bear, and he gives that pet, to that, to yellow leggings. From that it created a tradition of especially not doing that to your, to your, the. The real strict one is your sister's husbands, your sister's husbands, and then your, your wife's brothers. Those are like big timers, you know. Like you don't mess around with that stuff don't tease them.
Shandin Pete:Which, uh, which star was that?
Aaron Brien:I don't know, which star they said okay, so on the handle there's a star where there's a little star next to it. Yeah, and some of these old-timers, they'll say if you want to see that star, look in your peripheral vision, you'll see it that's I was.
Shandin Pete:That's what I was guessing is it's. It's that one with the the small star beside it, because that's a that's common. A story about that's someone with a pet. You know it's a dog. The dog is sometimes a bear, yeah. Or when one story it's a wolf. That's interesting, that's not what we're talking about, but it's a good story, I guess just kinship rules and social organization in general.
Aaron Brien:So there's and there's a lot of that with the crows. There's a lot, and I think for some people it can be like really, if they weren't raised in it they could be frustrated. Or also, if you gotta love it, you know, yeah, like you gotta love that kind of stuff, to want to do it like I enjoy it.
Shandin Pete:I enjoy talking about stuff like that with people and well, there's a benefit to it, you know there's yeah and that, that's, the, that's, I think I mean understanding the, the, the different names and the different restrictions, but on a deeper level there's, there's some sort of purpose for for all of that. It's not just some weird complicated rule or some reason why it's like that, reason why it's like that and what and you started hinting at it when you're talking about at the beginning. It's about sort of guides a person, or provides some sort of logic on who you can or can't marry, in a way, or to protect a marriage, current, existing marriage but I would say also even further, just to create a, generate a cooperative environment, if you will yeah yeah, to keep peace within the family yep, and that's what it does.
Aaron Brien:So if I follow the rules, like my ex-wife right, we were together for a long time we'll get along really well and I still have a lot of respect for her brother, right, yeah, by rules I I wouldn't talk to his wife yeah yeah but, here's the crazy part. So his wife's crow, but she's related to me, so on one side, on one side, yeah, on one side. She was my or he's my brother-in-law right because he still says that he's like you.
Aaron Brien:He's my brother-in-law right Because he still says that he's like you're still my brother-in-law and. I was like. That's good. That's a sign of respect, right. Yeah. It's like no, we're going to keep that. That's good, you know I like it. But if we were to follow the kinship on his wife's side, he would be my son-in-law yeah, so I still gotta respect him. You know what I mean so it's still I still can't well, this is what the confusing part is about.
Shandin Pete:What you said about the whole thing is that in the past, a man would a person would often marry a sister. That doesn't align with what you're just saying about the rules. It doesn't make sense.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, it does, no it doesn't. That a crow man would marry a group of sisters.
Shandin Pete:Oh, not their own sister. Yeah, I know they're sisters, their sisters.
Aaron Brien:What is that polygyny? Isn't that maternal? What is that maternal polygyny?
Shandin Pete:Like they're full blood. They have the same mother, same father.
Aaron Brien:That was really common.
Shandin Pete:I don't believe that. Okay, I don't believe that okay it didn't make sense, though, from the restrictions why?
Aaron Brien:I don't know, because they're unmarried.
Shandin Pete:There's no rules about an unmarried woman so some of the rules you're talking about, about who you can and can't marry because of the nature of the clan- why can't they marry the group of sisters? Wouldn't they be in the same clan though?
Aaron Brien:Yeah, the sisters aren't marrying each other. They're marrying a man from a different clan, right?
Shandin Pete:What are you talking about?
Aaron Brien:Wait, wait are you thinking I mean? Do you think I mean like a man can marry his clan sisters?
Shandin Pete:No, like a man, like a brother, can marry his blood sister.
Aaron Brien:No, that's not what I'm saying.
Shandin Pete:I'm going to rewind this and I'm going to.
Aaron Brien:And this is why I think back then it was practice to marry sisters. It was common for a crow man to marry sisters. Because of that, because they would all still be the same clan. They would all still be of the same clanship. They would all still be of the because their moms are all the same clan. They would all still be of the same clanship. They would all still be of the Because their moms are all the same. Not the biological sister. No, they would marry biological sisters. Yeah. Really.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, it's real common to marry sisters. Huh, okay. Okay, let's clarify that.
Shandin Pete:Because that's what it sounds like. Well, let's use an example. Let's use an example.
Aaron Brien:Yeah. Oh God, I'm a descendant, I'm a descendant. I'm a descendant of a guy named Goza Head. Okay, basago, right. Basago and Crow. Okay, he was married to Pretty Shield. Okay, he was also married to Pretty Shield's sister, medicine Shell Stanzo. Okay, those were both his wives, okay, at the same time.
Shandin Pete:He was married to both of them at the same time.
Aaron Brien:They were sisters.
Shandin Pete:That's what I said. They were sisters A man can marry.
Aaron Brien:I said a man can marry sisters.
Shandin Pete:What you heard was a man can marry his sister.
Aaron Brien:That's what you said. No a man can marry his sister. That's what you said.
Shandin Pete:No a man can marry sisters. Okay, all right. All right, that's well. I'm glad that's clarified because I hope someone listens beyond what you said. The first because I clarified, I said his blood sister and he said, yeah, the blood sister. Oh, oh, not their own sister, did I know?
Aaron Brien:their sisters. What is that polygyny? Isn't that maternal barb? What is that maternal polygyny?
Shandin Pete:like they're full blood. They have the same mother, yeah, same father that was really common we weren't no I think that mountain dew, that mountain dew and that motrin along with the tylenol.
Aaron Brien:It was, it was. You don't, don't bring mountain dew into this, um, so I you said it no, okay, all right in the in the 50s there was a man that I'm related to or a woman that I'm related to her name. A woman that I'm related to, her name was Frances. We won't say her last name, okay, because I don't know how the family would feel about it.
Shandin Pete:Okay. Do a pseudonym, do a pseudonym, yeah.
Aaron Brien:Well, they still got it. No one's going to research this lady on the Crow Reservation, but her name was Frances, right, yeah, okay, she had sisters. One of them sisters' name was Meredith. Let's say, okay, this is a real story. This man, frank his name was Frank was married to Frances. Frances died, yeah, so Meredith's brothers got together. Yeah, francis died, yeah, so Meredith's brothers got together, yeah, walked Meredith over to Frank's house, yeah, and said we're going to give you our sister, yeah, which is Francis, and Meredith were full sisters. Yeah, yeah, okay.
Aaron Brien:And she did it and they stayed together forever. They were together for a long time like until the 80s. Yeah 35, 40 years.
Shandin Pete:I'm familiar with that. Now that I clarified, but the way it came off was not right.
Aaron Brien:That's the way you heard it?
Shandin Pete:That's not right, yeah, okay, yeah, no, it's true. Yeah, that happens. A lot happened, a lot yeah yeah, many tribes.
Aaron Brien:That wasn't just a tribe thing that white folk were doing that too yeah okay, my, my question is as I lived at flathead for so long, yep, I never had anyone yeah clearly show me what salish kinship looked like.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, that's a complicated.
Shandin Pete:I mean it's not complicated but it's probably been infected with the Catholic thought, and I think that's probably why people get a bit confused. So what I know is just what I've told you and it comes from the language, right so. But then there's some that's it gets kind of vague because, um, like the, the complexity of what you're talking about about, um, uh, mother's brother or mother's sister and then brother's sister's kids, I mean those things are very easily described, right, there's a name for them. It's the same thing you call a brother and sister. So any first cousin which is from your, what you call it, the aunt or uncle on either side is brother and sister in a particular way. Then it gets a bit complicated after that and it gets beyond sort of my understanding as far as the language is concerned so would you say that this isn't practiced?
Shandin Pete:this kinship system of the salish is not practiced no, I would say no, and I think even it goes even beyond that. I think there's a loss of consciousness of who you ought not to marry and who you can marry, and I've heard this from people saying and it's a Catholic, it's a Catholic, one of the Catholic laws is that you can marry your second cousin.
Aaron Brien:You can have a common great-grandfather In fact, it's even more encouraged on your mother's side that you can, because the Catholic Church promotes patrilinealship.
Shandin Pete:Really.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, okay.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, that's what the church did yeah. So that that, that that was. I think that's one of the one of the issues that happened there. But it's something that you know, I don't put a whole lot of time or research into it. Just I just don't don't do a lot into it, but there's something interesting there that um needs to be explored more. Um, but yeah, it's unfortunate that people don't take it serious enough to know or they'll just brush off oh, that's your, that's like your fifth cousin, you know, and they're just oh yeah, so what?
Shandin Pete:who cares? That that's. It's got to that point where people don't really know. I think there's there's a there's sort of a subconscious of who you're related to, maybe not. Maybe not to to the specific, the specifics within salish terminology. It's more like cousin first cousin, second cousin, but beyond that, uh, not a lot yeah, so.
Aaron Brien:so my question is is in terms of the preserving the language and and providing an environment for language to thrive, how come I I had never seen an effort in my 19 years at flathead, yeah to use social organization as a tool to preserve language and make language relevant? Yeah. Am I wrong? No, you're not wrong.
Shandin Pete:Have you seen it. No, you're not wrong and we talked about this before, about that issue of making language learning relevant. And it's tough to be relevant in a classroom where that's where it's only taught and there's probably stronger pockets of use, but strictly in a ceremonial context but, strictly in a ceremonial context.
Shandin Pete:Outside of that, it doesn't hold a lot of weight, if you will. So the weight is on pen and paper in a classroom giving a speech to somebody, to some white folk, or uh ceremonial. But I, you know, I don't know, I know how do you get creative and make it uh relevant using kinship. That's the, that's the trick. I don't, I don't, I don't know how. I wouldn't know how to do that. I wouldn't know how you'd have to really promote it you'd it, you'd have to have a media campaign.
Aaron Brien:I don't know, has there ever been a course taught at anywhere on the Flathead Reservation, on just Salish social organization? No, no, I know there's a lot of efforts for coyote stories and yeah, and counting the 10, that's the greatest the greatest uh, god the greatest language effort ever was of getting that to that number 10. Um, yeah, yeah. No, I'm just teasing I did there's been some headway on language preservation there.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, I mean any anything is better than nothing. Well, for the most part.
Aaron Brien:But I did. I did a unit a lot better than what I'm doing.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, yeah, I did a brief unit in I think it was a tribal government course on sort of the governmental structure which sort of leans into that kinship structure in a way from the past.
Aaron Brien:So here's my call to Sean Dean Okay, I want to go to the Plains Anthropology Conference with you R2. Okay, washington State something, or the frigging Salish Conference or something I don't know. But I want and I could help flesh this out with you. But I want you to put together a presentation, a lecture on Salish social organization, a lecture. Okay, I'll do it, man, like really like something you can go to, like I'd like to see it, like I really would like to see it, because I've never seen it. I've never seen anything like that. Okay, I've seen the bitter Salish start to adopt basket hats, but I've never seen them talk about kinship. And because I feel akin to the Salish people, because I was there for so long, yeah, I kind of get offended sometimes for them when I'm like wait, what is this adopting of?
Aaron Brien:yeah this kind of coastal thing. Like you guys are plains indians. You're up, you're from the smith and sun rivers yeah in the muscle cell country. You guys fought proud plane warriors exactly man like for real dude, like I get. I kind of get defensive when I go to like consultation meetings too and they're like and like the flathead will remove themselves from these consultations because they like oh, we're not part, I'm like I like freak out, you know. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, yeah, and I'm like you guys were out here. There's so many stories about intertribal warfare and camping together and place names. There's so much place name studies that have been done on the plains and there's still this perpetuated idea, yeah, that you somehow are doing no offense to those tribes. That's their thing. But like canoe journeys and wearing basket hats and macaw drawings and it's like and those are cool, I like that art a lot. Sometimes I'm like I wish we had cool Like stuff like that.
Shandin Pete:Some of my best friends are macaw.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, some of my best friends are macaw. Some of my best friends are in moieties. That should be assured. Some of my best friends are part of. Are in moieties, a moiety? You know what I'm talking about? I think so, like a group of clans yeah, frey trees, which is a group of clans. And then when a tribe split into two groups, you call that a moiety. So you're part of one moiety and then that's kind of the pot, like potlatch culture, but um you've been you've been.
Shandin Pete:You've been busy, man, your mind is going today.
Aaron Brien:Well, we also haven't had a podcast in like three months. Yeah, it's been a while, and then um, you're in a rip.
Shandin Pete:I don't want to talk.
Aaron Brien:I don't want to talk about work, like I don't want to talk about Section 106.
Aaron Brien:No no no, I notice competent pro people, culturally competent pro people are getting lax, lazy, lackadaisical in their kinship. To me, I think it's a microcosm of culture in general that there's these allowances given. I could see it. To me, I think it's a microcosm of culture in general that there's we're, there's these allowances given to be chill, and I'm like, wait, that's, that's maybe where it starts, though, and is that something we should prevent from happening now, cause I can see it. I see it in kinship, where they're just like, so like even me, I give into it, like when I see my cousin, I see my cousin mike, he hey, what's up brother? Yeah, yeah, yeah, like you're not, you're not my brother. So I remind him once in a while. I always remind him remember you're, you're my dad, so your kids you know, yeah, your kids were were the same generation, me and your kids yeah, I'm gonna figure this out.
Aaron Brien:Man, I'm taking on this challenge, yeah I pure for, for consider it a pure salvage, preservation project, like honestly, like it's something that's not practiced among your people anymore. But I feel like there's enough language, there's enough knowledge, yeah, and there's enough written history that you could piece something pretty useful together to say, hey, this is actually how we were organized yeah camp structure.
Aaron Brien:And, yeah, you, you get that cam structure and you look at it and you say, okay, well, in the language these are the terms and then maybe, once you see cam structure, those terms will start to make more sense to you. Yeah, and you're like, hey, look at this man yeah, yeah there's a difference when you say kenna and yaya yeah so that to me that that's already a distinguishing between two sides yeah between patrilineal ship and matrilineal ship.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, there's already a distinction there. Yeah, so that tells me something. I don't know what it's telling me, but it's telling me something, something important, something important. The term for your, your father's mother is different than the, than the term that is your mother's mother, you know yeah all man, and that also says, like when you refer to your grandchild, it's the same term.
Aaron Brien:So to me those terms they seem to be more like distinguishing relationship, not distinguishing distance. Or where you're at on the tree, yeah, distance. Or yeah, where you're at on the tree, yeah. So to go back to this concept of the seven generations, I, I, I wonder if people in our region subscribe to that, because generationally those are blurred yeah, I believe it, man, I believe it.
Aaron Brien:I think it's more complex than what um gets put out there in the world yeah, well, you get the pedagogy people and they, they take over terms and they use them up and then they sustainability, people, pedagogy I mean those are important things, don't get me wrong, those are important.
Shandin Pete:But authenticity, people who say praxis authenticity ought to trump any of those things. Yeah, you talk about praxis.
Aaron Brien:You're talking praxis you talk about practice. You better not alan iverson. You talk about practice. Remember that, Allen.
Shandin Pete:Iverson Remember.
Aaron Brien:Allen Iverson. Remember Allen Iverson? He's getting interviewed in a post game and they're like they said you're being late, you didn't show up to practice. And he's like you're talking about practice. I just lost the biggest game of my life and you're talking about practice, or something like that. I can't remember, so that's why I said and you're talking about practice or something like that. I can't remember. So that's why I said are you talking about practice?
Shandin Pete:You got some odd references today, man.
Aaron Brien:I feel like you're trying to wrap this up. No, I'm not.
Shandin Pete:If you're going, if you're on a ripper, keep her up, man, I'm not, I'm not. I think it's important, what's your?
Aaron Brien:next thought what's your?
Shandin Pete:next thought Well, all these things are important. There needs to be a considerable thought for each tribe in this area of kinship. The social structure of a people is really what determines a lot of things, especially the virtues and the norms that tie into the area I work in, which is the idea of the generation of knowledge. That's uh, that's just super important. But the idea of the, of how it was, how knowledge is constructed, um, often, uh, the, the social construct gets sort of watered down, like there's big assumptions about, about it that people don't consider. They just want to say, oh yeah, indigenous knowledge, traditional knowledge, without understanding the complexities of the thing that you just talked about. That's quite complex, you know.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, and Crow kinship is actually often used as a teaching tool to show the three major kinship systems in the US. Which is what do they call that? Eskimo, hawaiian and crow right is because don't they say that the us kinship system is based on the eskimo kinship system? I don't know, like that I've never heard that yeah, yeah, um dive into it a little bit. Oh, ah, I will. Yeah, so actually, ben, you know this makes me it a little bit. Oh, I will. Yeah. So actually, ben you know, this makes me think a little more about like.
Aaron Brien:Okay, my proposed idea to you how, how were chiefs determined and what the sailors? I never, I never, heard people talk about this. Yeah, Like leaders. What's the Salish word for a chief? What does that mean?
Shandin Pete:oh man yeah, I'm not. I'm not that advanced money, no, not money almost sounded like money yeah, I'm not sure, let's see. Yeah, I couldn't. I'm not, I'm not that advanced to break words down, unless unless I'd given a chance to kind of look it up a bit. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what it means, but that's the word so how?
Aaron Brien:what was the? Was there any prerequisites or well?
Shandin Pete:yeah, yeah, we, we chatted about it before, I think in in somewhere laced in our previous episodes, but yeah, it was it was generally did we well, yeah, not, not, it wasn't a, it wasn't a discussion point, it was probably just just a quick comment. But yeah, generally, there was, you know, the. The chiefs were decided upon by the, the main, the main people of the tribe. You know the, the I don't know what they call them in the, I don't know what you'd call it like they call the headsman. You know some of the, the prominent people, yeah, they decide, they, they I don't know what they say when they mean vote. You know, of course, they, you know they'll decide, but it was someone who, um, you know, embodied certain virtuous, uh, virtuous ways, you know, but definitely they had to be someone who was, uh, had certain amount of deeds. You know they proved their bravery in a certain way, but of course they had to be other deeds. You know they proved their bravery in a certain way, but of course they had to be other things.
Aaron Brien:You know they had to be uh when you say virtuous, what does that mean? Well, you know, without, without the influence of the church, what is because? What is salish virtue and morality without the church? What is that pre-church?
Shandin Pete:well, yeah, you got it. You got to be brave man, you got to be able to, to show certain amount of bravery in the things you do, but you had to be um, you have to have a way with the words, you have to be persuasive, but you also had to be knowledgeable about about gaslight you have to know how to gaslight people. You got got to be passive-aggressive gaslighter.
Aaron Brien:Well, the reason I ask is because when you look at the Crow structure of the ranking system, the highest level is what you call a chief, which just means good man, right. But in order to be a chief chief, you had to have accomplished four deeds yeah these four war deeds. You capture an enemy's weapon, yeah, you capture an enemy's horse.
Aaron Brien:You touch an enemy without killing them and you lead a successful war party or whatever, right? Yeah, that makes you qualified. You're now in the ranking, yeah, or in the running, but the final and the most important criteria is that people have to want to follow you. Yeah, you can have the deeds, but if nobody follows you, you're not a chief. So it's real democratic in that sense. Yeah.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, there's a that's pretty familiar. Yeah, yeah, there's a that's pretty familiar, not not those specifics of like the four deeds, but there's a. There's a, there's a pretty specific quote I use quite often to to demonstrate sort of that idea of how bravery ties into that idea of I don't know like persuasiveness. You know that meaning people will listen to you. You know persuasiveness, you know that meaning people will listen to you. You know there was a, there was a, just a quote of some guy saying you know, I want to, I want to, uh, I want to accomplish a great deed. He's sort of saying these things, you know, and he says because, uh, to be, to be brave, you have to be listened to, or uh, or what was it, I don't remember exactly, you have to be listened to or what was it. I don't remember exactly, but anyway it was tying the idea of people listening to you to the idea of you being brave.
Aaron Brien:So the deed indicated, bravery indicated that people will then listen to you in a certain way. I can see that, yeah. I wonder though, because you don't hear much about that from the crows in terms of bravery in that same sense, In a traditional sense. What they're really into is luck. Yeah, are you lucky? Are you lucky? Did you test yourself against the enemy and come out unharmed? Yeah, so the people would see you as someone who's fortunate.
Aaron Brien:So we want people who are leading us, who are lucky that they can do that, and the ultimate form of your luck is to go into battle, right. So it just makes me wonder. I've never heard anyone talk in all my years there and I felt like I participated in the appropriate amount and I was privy to some pretty cool conversations and knowledge but never heard anyone talk about social organization, kinship, military structure in any organized setting. I think it was always just kind of like um snippets here and there, you know if somebody was to collect them snippets yeah and put them into something comprehensive, it would tell you I think it would show a lot.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, and I think that's man, it's like I don't want to. There's a, there's a untapped resource there of teaching, creating the environment for language, you know and culture to survive, yeah that is void of the church.
Shandin Pete:That is void. That's a tough one. Anyway. The quote is to do good, you must be listened to, and to be listened to you you got to be brave. But I think you're right about the idea of luck, luck and bravery.
Aaron Brien:Maybe that's kind of the same thing. I think they're synonymous, right like yeah, yeah it almost seems like that you're willing to take on these tasks that are dangerous and if you come out unharmed or you come out successful, yeah. Yeah, naturally that's a test of bravery, but your bravery is based on your personal power. Yeah, yeah. The good fortune that you have from what is the things you possess? Yeah. And that people would want to be around. It's contagious. Good fortune is contagious. Yeah, yeah. Nobody's going to follow an unlucky leader, you know yeah.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, right, no, but that's. I think you're right. There's a lot of work that needs to be done in that area. There's a lot of work in um curriculum, you know making well and I don't lessons, no, but it has to be tied to something.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, it's got to be tied to that and I feel, like, man, that you could blow minds. You can. You can. People can look at you and say, man, you know what you're right. We've been doing it wrong. In that sense, we're not creating an environment where language can survive. What we're doing is we're creating platforms for language. Yeah. While we survive.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. It's just like making a bunch of parking lots, like real cool parking lots, but you don't really have a building that you're making a parking lot for.
Speaker 2:It's just a bunch of cool parking lots.
Shandin Pete:You know you got it. You got the one with the boulevard and the nice trees. You got the one that's optimized for space. You got one, that's what drained well, and it's situated in east west, so car don't get too hot, but who cares if there's no? Like you don't know where you're parking, you don't know what building you're parking in front of, so yeah. So if language learning was situated in teaching those kind of things, that seemed to make more sense right yeah.
Aaron Brien:And also you preserve a practice, because by teaching that language in that environment, you actually encourage the use of that system. Yeah.
Shandin Pete:So people will start using it, and then it would just kind of start to work yeah, I bet it's, it's more, it's more better, it's more better well, there's, there's attempts, there's attempts, but but there I think they're, they're, they're, they're young, because people will try to make lessons about powwows. Here's all the vocabulary about powwows and then all the Jingle, dread, and that's cool. It's a start, but we can get more complex and hit on the things that really matter.
Aaron Brien:And these kinds of language lessons, our language preservation efforts, are cultural understanding efforts are they're not designed for the outsider. That's the thing, that's not the audience. Yeah, the idea of the power thing, like creating curriculum for people to understand power, that's the whole, like bridging the divide thing, right yeah let's bridge the gap where?
Aaron Brien:but really it's like no, what we're trying to do do is preserve real life culture for real life people. You know, yeah, not, and not for the sake of preserving, but for them to use it yeah so social organization is like a huge form of that. Etiquettes.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, the social norms, you make them normal, but before you can do that, they got to know it and they don't know it yeah, yeah I've seen growth at flathead with like coyote stories where, like nobody knew them when I would first went there, nobody my age would have known them yeah now you go and talk to most 22 23 years old. They all know about the heart, the monster in the heart. They all know about uh fox jumping over coyote. They all know. They might not know the the details or anything but you can tell like there was huge efforts in that.
Aaron Brien:So yeah, it's, it was normalized a little bit, you know yeah you even got white kids over there talking about car it's like, so I think it can be done yeah with social organization. Anyway, I don't want to be the dead horse yeah, I know there's a lot of dead. There's a pile of dead horses there, because there's a lot of seen anyone.
Shandin Pete:There's a pile of dead horses there because there's a lot of issues with that gatekeeping of knowledge. We don't want to, we don't want to, we don't want those lessons about that because we don't want nobody to see it.
Aaron Brien:But but nobody still want to do it because there's responsibility that comes with it. Yeah, that's the thing is. It's like once you know your kinship and once you know your social organization yeah there's a responsibility that comes with it, because now I know who my kids are. Now I know who my clan children are. Now I know who my in-laws are, blah, blah, all that. So there's roles and responsibilities that come with all of it. But once you start teaching people like what you're saying to do, yeah teach the salish people they can ship roles and social it's like.
Aaron Brien:But if you cast a wide net and you get, you talk to a thousand people and five of them start using it yeah that's five more than they're using it now.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, yeah, catches on. Well, I got my assignment. I'm going to figure this out and I'll have some answers for you next time, Maybe next next time.
Aaron Brien:Saturday. I'll be busy with a crow function.
Shandin Pete:Secret, secret crow function.
Aaron Brien:Secret crow function. It's so secret, it's so secret.
Shandin Pete:What do people say? Secret gigs? You got a secret gig, oh yeah.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, the powwow world, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, secret gig, yeah I got gigs, secret gigs I got gigs, secret gigs.
Aaron Brien:We got gigs and it's always for, like, someone's retiring yeah someone's retiring, someone's retiring um a treat, like a treatment center's graduation um groundbreaking for a fire fire department for the volunteer fire hall, yeah, or like well, the ones I never liked was like your, when you it's hardcore like your own people, like when a council wants you to come and sing like an honor song, you're like man, I really this is the group of people we should do it like real shit for. Yeah, authentic, yeah stuff yeah you know, like up there, when we when people, I used to go sing with guys and we'd be like, oh, they want us to sing for at the council meetings today, and it's like yeah come on, man, there should be like some cool stuff.
Aaron Brien:There's like salish praise songs I've heard a praise song before like Like a real life Salish praise song. I heard at a wedding. Johnny sang a praise song and I'm like why aren't they using these? Don't call Johnny to come and sing an honor song. Say we want you to use your praise song for this. Like the swearing in of the new council right. Yeah. That's a legitimate time to use something like that Legit yeah. Anyway, I'm sorry I'm going off again, but we can stop. Let's end it.
Shandin Pete:Let's do it.
Aaron Brien:Shut her down. Shut her down, bye.
