Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

#53 - A Smudge Too Far: Perils of Pretendigenous Smudging

• Aaron Brien, Salisha Old Bull, Shandin Pete • Season 2 • Episode 53

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Police encounters. 0:24
Colonialism, language, and smudging. 4:48
Smudging practice and techniques. 11:25
The origin and usage of the word "smudge" in Native American contexts. 16:58
Smudging practices and Timing. 23:08
Smudging practices and cultural context. 30:53
Cultural knowledge and tradition invention. 38:27
Smudging and its significance. 43:13
Smudging and gang fights. 49:51
Indigenous representation and responsibility. 56:57
Music, dance, and smudging. 1:03:38
Cultural identity and reconnecting with heritage. 1:09:54

Guest: Salisha Old Bull (Apsáalooke/Salish)
Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)

How to cite this episode (apa)
Pete, S. H., & Brien, A. (Hosts). (2024, February 18). #53 - A Smudge Too Far: Perils of Pretendigenous Smudging [Audio podcast episode]. In Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast. Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://www.buzzsprout.com/953152/14598221

How to cite this podcast (apa)
Pete, S. H., & Brien, A. (Hosts). (2020–present). Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast [Audio podcast].  Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com

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Aaron Brien:

Do you live alone?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

it's like sometimes you just kind of forget Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

you got it eat out of convenience

Salisha Old Bull:

this fear me

Shandin Pete:

yeah

Salisha Old Bull:

I'm gonna get shouting

Shandin Pete:

throw up a West Side what's the gang what's the gang sign in? Harden

Salisha Old Bull:

you're lying you're lying liar

Aaron Brien:

i haven't I don't think that's like a it doesn't seem to be that's more like me insane vicious time

Shandin Pete:

yeah the game sign yeah it is yeah it's

Salisha Old Bull:

not a gang sign but losers yeah I don't know what makes oh yeah blood remember it makes blood yeah you know it wrote

Aaron Brien:

part Copart Copart I can't remember how to do it crow part crow Park Oh park it's like it's like part of us it's

Salisha Old Bull:

good we know nothing

Shandin Pete:

we don't know jump people in we don't like part of

Salisha Old Bull:

all we know how to do is run from dogs okay and cops oh yeah

Aaron Brien:

I don't

Shandin Pete:

know I wasn't a cop

Salisha Old Bull:

okay let's go was never yeah never

Aaron Brien:

have to the cops didn't even care what you're doing but

Salisha Old Bull:

your kids see them kids clothes are all dirty okay

Aaron Brien:

you take off from the cop that's not chasing you like I look back on it now and I'm like I don't know if there actually takes

Salisha Old Bull:

yeah I don't think we're chasing until they saw you running

Shandin Pete:

hey listen to the song. You ready? I said Are you Ready? Ready? Better verbal yes here go yeah you know what you know what era that is? Because you can see it on the screen right? That has the familiar sound familiar sound of the 70s 1976 To be precise, a wartime song that was yeah, that was probably the end of when it was called the war dead song. I think some people tried to revive it, you know, on their subject.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, retro. Retro to call it that. Yeah, yeah, single word dance.

Shandin Pete:

We just want to start saying that we shouldn't Yeah, because when a single word dance.

Salisha Old Bull:

Wait, how do you say it? How do you say that in your language?

Shandin Pete:

You land? Oh no.

Salisha Old Bull:

I say it.

Aaron Brien:

Well, we say hot dense by the way the hot. The hot. Hot then some Yeah.

Salisha Old Bull:

Are you telling me your language is English

Aaron Brien:

bodily

Salisha Old Bull:

decolonize

Shandin Pete:

you did it. He's let him let him choose it out.

Aaron Brien:

How long did we make it into the recording before? The call it art?

Salisha Old Bull:

Today is all you could say all day.

Shandin Pete:

I know Yeah, I was really I was feeling colonial flow. I was doing it as a joke though, and she's getting mad saying that well, I'm just joking. But decolonization is not a joke

Salisha Old Bull:

No, no, no, no, no. Let's start it off with the land acknowledgement.

Shandin Pete:

Well, yeah, I'd like to start with the land acknowledgement. I would like to acknowledge the lands of the Bigfoot. The Yeti, often referred to as

Aaron Brien:

Sasquatch,

Shandin Pete:

whose lands we live in play and unlearn. Today Furthermore, I would like to position myself among the people of the mythical beasts of Native American lore and acknowledge my position of authority over over their domain and how I make them perceive the perceived in my work. The position of authority I hold over the domain of the mythical creatures of the forest I now that these these beasts never get acknowledged, you know,

Salisha Old Bull:

they never name not the snake, not the spider and

Shandin Pete:

we can climb up the animal kingdom and name the turtle.

Aaron Brien:

Oh, arch down. It's not a hierarchy.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, that's my You

Aaron Brien:

darn it.

Salisha Old Bull:

Raven, you're right. Not the salmon.

Shandin Pete:

I need to acknowledge my position of authority among the animal kingdom. The kingdom let me let me try it again. I can get this I can get this. I would like to acknowledge

Salisha Old Bull:

Don't forget about headmaster,

Shandin Pete:

my, my mice. scaly who I like to acknowledge my position among the creatures of this earth as my relatives, my kin. In fact, one of them could be a brother and sister. So that puts me in no position either. See, I'm humanizing it. I don't see no way out of this.

Salisha Old Bull:

What is it?

Shandin Pete:

I've worked myself into a colonial trap

Aaron Brien:

of colonial conundrum.

Shandin Pete:

conundrum. See, now I started off by using the colonizers language, which probably is what walked me into this colonial trap, if you will. I don't

Salisha Old Bull:

know the verbiage appeared at 1000 times.

Aaron Brien:

I've heard it for seven generations.

Shandin Pete:

And in every direction, and

Aaron Brien:

in all the directions.

Salisha Old Bull:

times two, which equals 14. Yeah, that's one of the seven. He's got to go around twice. Okay, four times.

Shandin Pete:

Seven. All right. I got something to talk about.

Aaron Brien:

Before before you start I want people to get a sense. Okay. US us today. We entered into a group chat. You

Salisha Old Bull:

get thirsty.

Shandin Pete:

But you

Aaron Brien:

said say let's just start this conversation out with

Shandin Pete:

Well, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Can you put smudge? Oh, yeah. And send it would it still work? I say Think so? No, no, don't don't interrupt me. I said I think so. Wait, like in the mail like mail and say Alicia says, Yeah. Would you smudge it? Would you smudge if you were in the middle of a gang fight? I said in reference to the first question, or like a legal jar, and then Shawn Dean says, Does your smudge get more powerful if you smudge the smudge? In which I said, I smudge all my smudges with four smudges four times. And then Shawn Dean replies joint appointed routes, reference to the jar comment, and then say Leisha says we later what's up? What? What's legal about the jar? And then Shawn Dean says triplicate smudge. And I said a joint action resolution. And then say Leisha enters in with a very profound question. So we should smudge when passing a law. That's a great question as amongst all the clutter, then says smudge bits of jar. That's a good thought.

Shandin Pete:

I'd say like, rip up and rip it up in little pieces and throw it in. Yeah. And then

Aaron Brien:

St. Lucia says something a bit vague. I would say somewhat controversial. Smudge, well flagging.

Shandin Pete:

Like, like on a road side of the road. And

Aaron Brien:

then I come back with a very clever, much action resolution. But I spelt it our easy.

Shandin Pete:

I didn't catch that.

Aaron Brien:

That's a good one. Then then then then in reference to your flagging. I said before and after, I think as a precaution right.

Shandin Pete:

To be safe.

Aaron Brien:

And then Shawn Dean says, which we all know smudge before free throws. That's a given. Say Leisha then says should you smudge while bringing the ball down the court? Great question. Great thought we hear you. John Dean then says much the referees jerseys, which I thought we were already doing. And then Alicia comes back with a should we replace the gravel with smudge, which we weren't even going there?

Shandin Pete:

You're laying down some gravel for a nice

Aaron Brien:

gravel. You said Yeah, boy. And I said decolonize decolonization is the key to pre smudge rituals, which at which time I say Leisha through a loop. She said, Wait, and I could hear it. Wait. There's a priest much thought where she? And then and then should we take hats off to smudge? Which I thought well, yeah, so yeah, that's it stand up and offered smudge, which is a 14 directions. It's in the manual. And I'm like, are we not consulting the manual? Daily should have figured it out because her foundation is strong. Seven times two equals 14. She got it. And she then asked because she's full of questions today. She said would you smudge during a job interview? actually get smudged if someone smudges the Zoom screen? Great. I mean, that's a great question. And then I said I would have hot coals burning and content and constant smudge. And you said like always say least carry a little pen of coals as always, as is our way and then you said I think that's that answers all my questions. Do you ever look away for the smudge? Oh, look away from the smudge when you're smudging. But

Shandin Pete:

yeah, that's

Aaron Brien:

how profound that thought Yeah. This in depth. Indigenous conversation now we're having indigenous group text message. Say Leisha hits us with the you guys did it. You answered my questions. Good, but I'm gonna leave you with this. It's like It's like Jesus leaving surely I'll come quickly. He says leave. What was that mean? That come back. Come back. Come back. Alicia hits us with the Do you ever when you're switching that's heavy. I respect that. That

Salisha Old Bull:

was Sunday. You said it would seem dangerous

Shandin Pete:

Well, no. This is the this was the thought this was a thought. Now let me let me just jump in here real quick because, you know, you see saw you so you're watching the person, like going in for a good smudge, you know, like he's gonna smudge something down, you know, you know, you've seen the person we've seen it many times. And they get these strange, the strange eyes, you know, they're the kind of big and they're looking at everything. They're smudging, you know? They're looking at it. You seen it read? Like, you have to look at it when you smudge it. Because I guess you might miss or maybe you're looking for something like, like a sign maybe. But I thought well, what if like the real cool guy. The real cool guy. Like the pro smudger, he can do the no look smudge. You know, he just couldn't look at it. He just knows. He knows.

Salisha Old Bull:

Or she without burning anybody? Well, of course,

Shandin Pete:

they just they know they just

Aaron Brien:

wave it over there. Just with or without a fan. Oh, without.

Shandin Pete:

Okay with the fan that just washed it. Yeah, like bro. You're so probably you don't need the extra tool to get it to where it needs to go. You just you got this like the little wrist. You can whip it up into like a little ice cream. thing and just kind of project names.

Aaron Brien:

I won't say any names. But the 100 years ago, during one of those Salish Kootenai College social nights. They asked the individual to pray for the food which was you know, pizza. And he's like, Wait, so he runs outside comes back in with sage. In it coach with a fan. Just ribbon. There's paths going everywhere. All over the food. Oh, no. It was bad.

Salisha Old Bull:

Something SpongeBob would do really have a conscience.

Shandin Pete:

Remember, he's got really bad breath and he's like, we stink. We stink and then that little stink air is coming out and it forms and then this little circle. Like it keeps growing in this room. We stink. We stink like this big ball of stink air. The Remnant. Yeah, I guess not.

Aaron Brien:

Okay, you're from a different era.

Shandin Pete:

Okay, all right, right, right. Okay. This is the deal, though. I got curious about this word, right, smudge. And I thought what, uh, this sounds strange. And it always sounded strange to me. Even growing up. So you know, the first thing I do is I isolettes. Well, what what did the English people think of the word smudge? So you consult the dictionary. And in the dictionary, it describes smudge as smearing something. Or when something becomes rubbed in that smears you know, or you make it blurry. You know, like, you can smudge inky can smudge a painting. You can smudge your makeup. Oh, mascara, or smudge your mascara. Yeah, you know what that or in American a newer American definition of smudges is a smoky outdoor fire that's lit to keep insects off of plants and or protect them against frost. So after all right, right, right, right. But let's let's interrogate this word, and see, let's see where it starts to come into play among Native American literature, because, you know, that's how it gets spread. 1976 19 Well, almost, almost. Well, tell me what's this 1976 reference, you know, you already know. Or do you just throw out a route? Here?

Salisha Old Bull:

1976

Aaron Brien:

I asked my mom. Yeah, I said When did you start hearing people say smudge because before they would just say like, cedar yourself off or you know, use some of that or whatever they point at you guys use some of this. You know, yeah, yeah. Cedar yourself off. Smoke yourself off. Yeah. So when did you start hearing smudge? And she said it was right around the time I was Reno district Princess, which was 1976

Shandin Pete:

That's pretty close. You know? That's pretty close to what I found. Isn't

Salisha Old Bull:

that weird? Isn't it weird how that's the same is the song that you just Laid. I know what the heck are in some way. See,

Shandin Pete:

that's what I thought he was gone for. He's like, Oh, she will do some mysticism into this. That was Pio 1976. That song was from anyway, it

Aaron Brien:

was she was centered lodge district Princess because the reservation has six districts. Okay? She was centralized district princess in 1976. Okay, I might be wrong. But

Shandin Pete:

well, let me let me. Let me walk you through what I'm what I found in a quick little jaunt of the internet, primarily Google Scholar. So in 1938 the word smudge was referenced but not not in any sort of way to Native Americans. It was it was referenced in in in terms of the settlers colonists in Kansas. They're trying to drive away grasshoppers from their crop. So they set it says efforts to drive them away then being the horde of grasshoppers, efforts to drive them away. By means of smoke smudges proved of no avail. And the crops were ruined. Fast forward to 1941. Now this is where smudge comes in into some Native American text. And you can probably guess 1941 were what kind of text it was. Take a guess. 1941 Yeah, I guess.

Salisha Old Bull:

Farmers Farmers Almanac No.

Shandin Pete:

What did you say, Aaron? You got? I didn't hear propaganda. No, this is an anthropological text, which

Aaron Brien:

would say the whole question over again. Then.

Shandin Pete:

I said in night, it shows up again in the literature in 1941. And I said guess and guess what kind of text it shows up in propaganda, Farmers Almanac listening, what

Salisha Old Bull:

grasshopper is all about us.

Shandin Pete:

Okay, anyway, it comes up in this anthropological text where this, whoever that apologist is he's talking about this funerary practice. And he says an alternative set of funerals. I know it is. Yeah, they're, they're fixated on our, on our on the dead. Anyway, an altar is set up in a room and the priest prepares a smudge with some of the hair cut from the corpse. Okay, fast forward again. It doesn't really show up again until 1960. Where again, same kind of text and topological text. A guy's talking about the it is it? Is it thought the Klingons How do you say that PLI and clink clink clink? It's saying

Aaron Brien:

you know that thing you guys do?

Shandin Pete:

Get thinking? Yeah. Okay. Got it. Okay,

Salisha Old Bull:

sorry. That's a sense.

Shandin Pete:

Okay, sorry. Anyway, he's described how they set up a smudge fire to keep flies off their, their strawberries are something that's okay. No, that's that sounds that's in alignment with the definition. And then this is this is strange. Well, that's not strange comes up in again. 1964. Again, a guy is talking about the Greeks this time, not even about Native Americans. He says, it's believed that if a smudge from the flame is planted over the threshold, the home will be blessed with good luck for the year. So that means, you know, when you when you put fire onto something that makes like a little black spot, you know, that's what I'm talking about, like smudging something with the with a flame. And then finally, in 1975, pretty close to what your your, your mother had said. Now it starts to show up in Native American literature and Noah and the manner in which we know it today in a text. Let's see what's it called? Being an elastic in a text called the vertical last God dang it in the text by a individual again, I think it was a linguist maybe in this in this in this instance. And it's a text about the Dakotas and it's talking about their some of their rites and rituals, I guess, in a certain way, and then he uses the word smudging in a manner in which it's used today, you know, where you're smoking stuff off those kinds of things. So I thought I was pretty curious. And I'm I was I'm wondering, this is so this is my next thought. Because you know how prolific it is today. I mean, your story is kind of illustrative of that. Like we're sort of obsessed with smudging we have this obsession with smudging, right? I

Aaron Brien:

seen sage. It said smudge kit. It was being sold in Walmart. In Walmart, man. They know were

Shandin Pete:

there. They know that. What was in it? Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

it was like those bundled ups. Sages. You know that sage one? Yeah, Sage one, which is, anyway. Yeah. It was like three of those. Now

Salisha Old Bull:

everybody wants to be us.

Aaron Brien:

Well, I think it's become so popular. They don't even know it's us.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah. It's just

Aaron Brien:

part of it's just part of it's a thing now. Yeah, what do they call it? People say oh, we're gonna cleanse this room. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

You've had an event he said I'm gonna cleanse my room. Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Fung Shui. It's almost like a fish waving like Yeah, I think it's kind of seen me like Eastern

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

You know I mean, I think people kind of do it that way you know? Yeah, like

Shandin Pete:

this exotic across the ocean kind of thing. Well, this is what I was wondering. This is what I was wondering. I'm wondering if when when is really not a good time to smudge? When is it and like just not a great time? Like if you see the person decent high that's not a great time. You shouldn't be smudging then well this is well this is what I thought

Aaron Brien:

well when when there was no needs much there was no need to smudge the food off

Shandin Pete:

because you get ashes all over it right? Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Who smudges food?

Salisha Old Bull:

Just pick a different smudge. Or

Shandin Pete:

maybe just just pray just pray over it. Yeah, there's a tree yeah, there's an array just pray over it. Well,

Aaron Brien:

here's a run to the car and grab the tool bag.

Shandin Pete:

This is what I was curious about this because I thought of one I thought well you know, probably a good time not to smudge is when somebody else is smudging right you don't want to you don't want to smudge block somebody

Salisha Old Bull:

Oh is it time to smoke

Shandin Pete:

no there's no smoke block that's not a great time

Aaron Brien:

normally I'm pretty cool about this stuff you should that got me so much

Salisha Old Bull:

your time bro it's nice going to bathroom and

Shandin Pete:

I already started already started

Salisha Old Bull:

you have to wait her turn you have to wait to turn

Aaron Brien:

down dude I'm going already sharing I don't know who taught you I learned from my grandpa that's it my authorities more than

Shandin Pete:

you got your switch get at Walmart no I didn't

Salisha Old Bull:

okay

Shandin Pete:

so that was my example is not a great time to smudge. So I'm wondering from the two of you what's your when is when is a good time not to smudge

Aaron Brien:

that's funny man I know that messes me up um,

Shandin Pete:

that's I mean it might be tough to top that one

Aaron Brien:

I don't know I think it's more about what what you're using. So like purpose and intent have a lot to do

Shandin Pete:

good to go again. So he's gonna go academic

Salisha Old Bull:

top five places not to smudge pot. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Hey, let me let me tell you softball here. So it's probably not a great time to smudge when you're refilling the propane tank. Probably should just Well, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Are we gonna do is

Shandin Pete:

it's not a great time. I mean, maybe feeling like, you know, I want to just cleanse this propane tank and the truck that is delivered delivering it. No, don't do it. It's dangerous. It's dangerous. So I want to hear. Yeah, what is not a great time to smudge?

Aaron Brien:

In the bathroom? Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

So when I thought to? It seems inappropriate, right?

Salisha Old Bull:

You have to smudge the bathroom. But not in the bathroom? I

Aaron Brien:

do. I do. This is what I'll say. I don't know where it's wrong to see my job. Would you say? I think we go to it too much, though. Yeah. Seems like Holy Christ.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Well, it seems it starts to feel when we said this quite a bit before it's performative. You know, that's not it's not the it's not for the action of what it's intended to do. It's more for some people to see people to see. I think

Salisha Old Bull:

what makes it hard is there's there's still people who are like reconnecting and yeah, it makes it like, it's confusing, because there's some tribes that don't smudge. That's not even a thing for them. Yeah. Yeah, it's true, though. And that ends up being that's like turning it on listen to while this, like Aaron said, they're turning it into like, a stereotypical thing. You know,

Aaron Brien:

I, you know, I believe in it, I believe in the power of those plants. And when you burn it, yeah. Can you use that smoke? I think there's something I don't want to say sacred but holy, that happens. Yeah. But that also means that I, because I believe in it. Like, if I go to a different tribe, and I see what they're doing, I like to look on or take part because I believe in it, right? Yeah. I think people who don't fully understand the purpose of those, the uses of those things are uncomfortable. When it's outside of that little knowledge base, they know. For example, one time I was doing something on your resume, I won't say names, but they were they were gonna make some are never gonna smudge or something. They use. They use Juniper, right. So they used it, we used it and I had some cedar or some bareroot nice to hear you try this. Some on there too. And it freaked them out.

Shandin Pete:

They're like, No, no,

Aaron Brien:

we

Shandin Pete:

don't use that. Does smudge blocking. Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

that's it. Oh, smudge Horan.

Shandin Pete:

Your tennis match block somebody? No, I get it. No, no, no, no, no.

Aaron Brien:

I was thinking like, when my mind if I had made calls and done my thing, and had to use this much. And then somebody said, let me use some of your causes. Try this a bit. Oh, should go for it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Because I know what those plans are for, you know? Because I'm avoiding your real question. It's more about people that claim to know, the uses of those smudges. I often find don't, because their familiarity and their comfort with it isn't there? They're like, rigid. And I'm like, man, if you really knew how these things are used, and what they use them for, then you'll know like, you'll know the leeway within them. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Yes. And no, it does. You know, it's like, well, so it's the context that really, that really matters, right? So if you if if this if you had the same context that you're talking about, what you put it into some sort of ceremonial process that perhaps you're new to that is pretty well established. You probably wouldn't even have done that. You probably wouldn't say Oh, hey. It's kinda like saying, Don't How about sing this song next. When you don't even belong there. It's not like something that it's not customary to that practice. However, you're talking about, just like that what we're accustomed to seeing today, which is just the sort of, I wouldn't I don't know, I don't know, I hate to say overuse. Because, you know, we have a belief, like you said in those in those, those plants and what what they bring? So it almost it's almost like, it's almost like, like, like the thought that well, it's not really wrong, but it's sort of misplaced. And so when you see it sort of in that manner, in this really loose situation, you know, like someone starting a conference, you know, and sort of smudging things down, you know, there's not there's not a whole lot of them. customary practice, in that particular situation. So you feel comfortable saying I want maybe throw a little bit of this on some sort of like a sort of misplaced? That's kind of what I hear you say,

Aaron Brien:

what we're doing in the moment, allows for that? Yeah, yeah, we was at like, a medicine dance or something. And they used to smudge. I wouldn't be like, hey, use,

Shandin Pete:

I brought some

Aaron Brien:

I brought my smoker bag.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. And I think that's where there's sort of this, you get sort of a divide between what, well, like people who are who who have been accustomed practice, long held tradition about things where things are placed, things are not placed. We sort of we don't we want to reserve judgment.

Salisha Old Bull:

But doing well. I

Shandin Pete:

mean, like, we don't we don't go out. We don't go out and try to correct people like to say, oh, no, you can't you you shouldn't be doing that. Or this is the this is the way I would do it. That's that's when you when you're familiar with that context of, of your own place, and the things that you do and you're comfortable. Like Aaron was saying, you have this comfort level with that. You don't go out and try to mean mug people manhandle things, try to make it be done your way. Because you understand that the situation in which it's being applied, like what we see in academics, or conferences, or meetings, or people are, let's smudge the room off and get everybody feeling in a good way. I don't know, it's just like that. It doesn't feel natural. It just feels misplaced. So we know, we don't we don't want to meddle in that and in that particular way. But I think we do have a sense that, and this is probably less, I guess I have the sense that and this feeling that I'm being misrepresented my, that really important thing, those really important plants. It sort of feels like an abuse in a way. But and then you got to wrestle with that idea that well, I mean, it's, it's hard to do it. I don't know, I think about why it can't be wrong, if they're trying to do it in a right in in a way that they're not trying to cause harm.

Salisha Old Bull:

But is it but is it even if they're not trying to cause harm? And even though we're not judging? Is it okay to not say anything? Oh, I

Aaron Brien:

think there's, I think there's a time you do say something? Like, I've seen it, I've witnessed it where somebody younger corrected this older fella? Oh, yeah, it was involved in a pipe. He's trying to force this thing. And he kept like, it was real performative. And I witnessed some really cool, they're speaking crow. But he was telling them, like, you know, basically, like, if it was meant to happen, then it would happen, but it's not happening. There's something telling you. And it's the it's because of what's going on here. You don't need to

Shandin Pete:

do it. You know, ya don't need to do it. Like you're

Aaron Brien:

you're trying to make something happen for these people. And I liked it. It was cool. I missed it. I witnessed a young man. Tell an older man. Like he was in his 80s in his 20s Yeah, you know, because of the way he told him because of his cultural knowledge. He said the right things,

Shandin Pete:

right. Yeah, it

Aaron Brien:

was just a young guy and said, It looks like you're doing it wrong

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, that would that would Yeah, that approach is not correct.

Aaron Brien:

It looks like it looks like you're doing it wrong.

Shandin Pete:

Let me run out and get my pipe in the car.

Aaron Brien:

Well, that's almost like what it was turning into you know, and Oh, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Yeah, some Curious about that, like Felicia was saying, like you give an example. You know, when is it? When, when it when does it when it went on? Does

Aaron Brien:

it not odd to be

Shandin Pete:

when it not to be to be? When should it be a person's place to intercede in whatever manner that feels respectful.

Aaron Brien:

And I think that as a conference, you're wasting your time.

Salisha Old Bull:

I'd like to say, what do you do if you're witnessing something being invented, right? That's their way. That's their way. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

It seems like

Salisha Old Bull:

no matter what you say, they're just gonna keep making it up as they go.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, yeah. It's almost like that, you know, the lie a person tells and they have to tell another light to make the other life fit. And you got to keep telling more lies to make that fit. That's That's how these weird traditions get invented. It's like, speak with forked tongue. Yeah. Speak with the work together. Yeah, that kind of thing.

Salisha Old Bull:

In two worlds.

Aaron Brien:

Two Worlds or get you?

Salisha Old Bull:

Yeah, to ice to get to ice.

Shandin Pete:

You got to do it that see world, two World

Aaron Brien:

Seven Rs.

Shandin Pete:

Then you got to seminar, you got to worry about all those things. So if I close one I might colonial and the other one is my indigenous?

Aaron Brien:

Why don't you put indigenous second? Oh,

Shandin Pete:

yeah. Good question. It's valid. It's valid, you got to point those things out when it happens.

Aaron Brien:

Again, there's a time and place for everything.

Shandin Pete:

So let's get back to this thing. Because I think it's important. I don't, I don't feel I wouldn't feel comfortable correcting anybody, you and if it was in a manner that was the gentlest in the most logical, meaningful way. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. I don't even think I'd feel comfortable doing that in my own home territory. Because people are too sensitive. You know, there's this, there's this. There's this heightened sensitivity. And I think it's because of, well, we all know, because cultural loss and people don't want to feel, you know, like, saying, yeah, they don't want to be seen. Yeah, they want to be shamed. And you don't want to discourage people. And you know, they're trying and like, you kind of give them a pass. And you watch, if you watch for too long, given people passes, then that's when things start becoming invented. And then debate, they become conventions, like, the smoking pot this, okay,

Aaron Brien:

they call it I've heard people lately or not lately, but they'll say he's gonna have a smudging ceremony. Yeah. Is pledging itself a ceremony? I've always understood it to be like something that accompanies the ceremony. And

Shandin Pete:

accompaniment, yeah, yeah, there's never the totality of a process centered on the smudging of, of anything that I know of anyway, only the pre smudge. The pre smudge becomes ceremony in itself, getting prepared to smudge. No, I think you're right, though. I mean, that's. So that's where we're at. That's what we're, that's what we face is these things. So it's easy, that you know why? Because it's easy. It's easy and accessible to label something that you're familiar with as a ceremony, because then it sort of gives you sort of some credibility, cultural credibility to say, Oh, I'm going to perform a smudging ceremony. When it's, it's not a I don't think like you said, we considered the totality of a ceremony, nor is it placed in the right context of in which the smudging ought to be performance,

Aaron Brien:

bulging smudging, is also done in the preparation of something. So I know like people in the past somebody's cowboys, you know, they're like, sponges, they're bits off and stuff before something you know, like cuz they're gonna compete or if they're gonna Yeah. Yeah, and get things prepped and ready. But there might be other things involved in that too, that are private, you know, like, oh, by the way, there's a way attached to stuff horse stuff, you know, racehorses, things like, yeah, so there's things attached to that. But um, so maybe sometimes it's not attached to a ceremony, but it's still attached to like, there's something that it's for. So what I noticed when people, what I'm curious is like, at these meetings are when they say, Well, we're gonna smudge, we're gonna do this. And it's like, okay, so then state the reason so we're smudging in preparation for something. What is that thing that we're doing? Yeah. And when we say this is the reason, then it's like, well, then it doesn't want that. Right. If it's just a talk, or something, you know, I don't think that necessarily warrants it all the time. I guess I don't, man, but what do I know?

Shandin Pete:

Hey, hey, man. No, no, no, no. Well, what's the classic Indian guy response? But what do I know? Poor baby. Poor baby. No, you'd have a point there, though, you know? Because so what you said earlier, you know, the power of these plants. There's not just, you don't just go collecting these things? Or provide yourself of these things for No, no good reason. You have on a deep understanding of their significance and power. And in a way it feels like, well, if you're not doing if you're not using that for a reason in which it's warranted, you're sort of playing, which is dangerous. That's a dangerous thing. Right? I mean, we're familiar with that in a ceremonial way. If you're playing deemed as dangerous.

Aaron Brien:

Danger.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, that's often the thing that I think of when I see these things like, oh, man, that I hope they're not going to get hurt themselves in a way because number one, it seems, doesn't seem that authentic in a way. And number two, it's, it's the sort of playing with something that, yeah, not to be played with.

Salisha Old Bull:

Like, it's really hard to respect it, even if so in the instance of, they're trying to learn something, it's hard to inspect it if they don't know what it's for. And they're not quite sure if they should be doing it at that time. And then it's like, well, I like in that way. That's, that's what we have is a it's like we have our own privilege. And we have a privilege of knowing those pieces of information. But we also understand that the responsibility that comes with that, which is not supposed to discourage them, so then you're kind of putting yourself at risk too. Because it's like you don't know if their intent is all if they understand their own intent.

Shandin Pete:

Right. Yeah, yes. That's I don't know that's this What did you call it a conundrum.

Salisha Old Bull:

What did you call it that a colonial Oh, Aaron

Shandin Pete:

said the drum kit. I mean, it is. It is.

Aaron Brien:

I just we have to acknowledge it. Like the land.

Salisha Old Bull:

The monsters

Shandin Pete:

monsters on the land. That's why I'm wondering. Yeah, monsters energy drink. Monster Energy,

Salisha Old Bull:

flathead, monster,

Aaron Brien:

flooded, Monster energy drink.

Shandin Pete:

Okay. All right. That's I'm wondering, back to the back to the question. What was, the question was, when is it when should you not smudge? And I gave a couple of good examples when somebody else's smudging who the hell cares when you fill in a propane tank, no, not a good idea.

Aaron Brien:

Not a good idea.

Salisha Old Bull:

Not a good idea. Not like what's in a car. Not Hi Sam. I am not green eggs and

Aaron Brien:

not in a car.

Salisha Old Bull:

Not Uber, not Uber.

Shandin Pete:

Don't smoke. Much in an Uber, some stars on your

Salisha Old Bull:

Uber just a minute well

Aaron Brien:

smudge How do you say it in your language and Salish? How do you work when you're doing that

Salisha Old Bull:

that's the word

Shandin Pete:

that's a great question I don't know how do you say I don't even I don't know if there's an well I guess what is what's the what would be the what how do you say it in CRO and what does it mean maybe that'll help me figure out how it might be said Bala.

Aaron Brien:

kabbah Bala Bala kabhi bonnet cabeza

Shandin Pete:

and what does it mean? I mean, what is the this is the act

Aaron Brien:

of using that boiler cupboards like your boiler cupboards, like the plate, the plate actual smudge itself. And just to do it, too, just to do it. To do it. Do it, do

Shandin Pete:

it. The word eye is it has a root word in and I'm not. I think the root word has something to do with plants. The plant has something to do with the plant. You

Salisha Old Bull:

say the dinosaurs and

Shandin Pete:

then

Salisha Old Bull:

acknowledge the dinosaurs.

Shandin Pete:

I'm trying to talk here about we're talking about this thing getting sick of saying it smudge. Tired of saying I'm tired of saying it well don't say

Salisha Old Bull:

it anymore to pick

Aaron Brien:

this topic. Man Is this why you called this

Salisha Old Bull:

Hey, just calm down.

Shandin Pete:

Mr. Meeting resolved

Aaron Brien:

Ah, you

Shandin Pete:

said it you know what? You know what I'm gonna do I want I want the listeners as on on a challenge the listeners. And you know what, you know what I'll do you know what I'm gonna do to the first listener. That counts how many times we said the word Samaj. I will send you a tribal research specialist. 16 ounce coffee mug? Yeah. Well, I do too. So what I'm

Salisha Old Bull:

poem cousin punks, then yeah, it's the punk sets.

Shandin Pete:

Like you use a plant that you use in a plant. To smoke some mafia. It's a device this plant is a device for something. Yeah, but no serious listeners. loyal listeners. The first one to email tribal research specialist@gmail.com. We will send you a complimentary coffee cup. I

Aaron Brien:

will research coffee mug,

Shandin Pete:

tribal research specialist coffee mug because I'm curious. The lump sum curious a

Aaron Brien:

lot. That means you want to count them. I

Shandin Pete:

do in it.

Aaron Brien:

Because I ate all right, I

Shandin Pete:

gotta count them up. So what count them up? And then you're, you're on your muted. There's Felicia if you're trying to tell us something.

Salisha Old Bull:

And the transcript.

Shandin Pete:

Well, yeah, I'll print transcript do word count. Okay, let's get off this topic because we killed it. We've dot matrix.

Aaron Brien:

It's killed us.

Shandin Pete:

It's killed.

Salisha Old Bull:

Do you never did? Oh, did you even answer me about that gang fight?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, is it? Is it appropriate time

Salisha Old Bull:

to enter a gang fight?

Shandin Pete:

Let's think of a different word than smoking. Let's let's try that. Let's let's replace the word smudge with let's see what's a good word? Oh, skinny Cow. Cow. Word we didn't say for me to save word. What do you say? Eyelashes. Eyelashes. Is it would you eyelash yourself before a gang fight? Or would you eyelash yourself during a gang fight? No. I mean, you kind of want to be in the moment. You don't want to stop and I last yourself. Sounds weird.

Aaron Brien:

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Shandin Pete:

I know. I've lost I've lost total control of this episode. I had a point. I had a point. And it's gone. Somebody's got to rescue it.

Salisha Old Bull:

Okay, okay. Pull

Shandin Pete:

us in. Because there's a point here. There's an important point here that we when we've made a couple of them. And I think well, I know let me tell you Well, you tell me what you thought it was. I'm gonna see if your active listening

Salisha Old Bull:

is not praying at a meeting. No

Shandin Pete:

praying at a meeting.

Salisha Old Bull:

We talked about that for a long time

Shandin Pete:

that was an example I know well maybe Aaron's he's I think he's just in a digest that bullet dairy he just wolf down check

Aaron Brien:

on what I'm, I'm waiting for the conversation to start because this is I don't know what you're doing today. I don't know what your goal is. I don't know why you're coming at us with this bush league. I call bush league. Okay,

Shandin Pete:

okay, good, good, good. I, well, you know, one of the points was sort of what our observations and our responsibility to address discrepancies and how we might be misread as represented outside of our communities. Oh, there's, there's a number of people in, in, in our in, in and outside of our communities right now that misrepresents sort of some of our cultural practices. Yeah, misrepresentation? I don't know. This is the one I don't know. Does that do harm? Oh, couldn't do it. I'll

Aaron Brien:

quit doing it.

Shandin Pete:

This was actually another intervention for Aaron for him to what

Salisha Old Bull:

did you What do you get off?

Aaron Brien:

Acting fake?

Shandin Pete:

Acting plum fake. My senior. You're always acting

Aaron Brien:

fake

Salisha Old Bull:

it's scaring me yeah, I'm gonna

Aaron Brien:

come you're always acting fake

Salisha Old Bull:

Okay, so I'm really actually say that, you

Aaron Brien:

know, acting bad though. You're always acting bad. Why are you always acting bad?

Shandin Pete:

Okay, that's the question. So that's the question is I didn't hear

Aaron Brien:

the question. Come on, man. Oh, what

Salisha Old Bull:

did I miss? are talking about misrepresentation? We're talking about we've

Aaron Brien:

been misrepresented and smudge.

Shandin Pete:

No, that was just an example. That's an example to illustrate an example of yes, we are doing that's really representative. Well, I know, I know that that was that was that's the point, misrepresentation. And then responsibility of, of community people who are in the no responsibility of community people to do something about it. Do something about it. Yeah.

Salisha Old Bull:

What? You know what, though, it's like, the it's there's like two separate communities. And I don't think it'll ever be different now. Like, it's just gonna keep growing. But there's back home. Like, if you're not living at home, there's back home, there's a back home community, that's the community back home. And then there's the community, where you're at, which is not back home, if you're not back home. And it seems to be the community where you're at where you see all of that most of the time because Because anybody that's in this outside community in the outside community, probably would be who's scared to go do what they're doing? Back home home? Yeah, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Even if you're living back home, and your work takes you somewhere else. People can kind of act up, you know, act up in do stuff because they want to be the showman or the or the one to one we talked about this about praying at the meetings and all that stuff. But what when WHEN DO WE when do we have a what do we when should we have there? When should we say something?

Aaron Brien:

I don't know. My whole My whole job as a preservation officer is to say something right? Yeah, always I meant I'm always talking about how we got to could be in basically how I'm sick. It is so cheesy. Perfect. normative thing that's not only expected of us, but that we keep delivering.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Yeah. We,

Aaron Brien:

and I'm like, sometimes I feel like I'm begging, I'm begging white people to quit asking us to do this. Because as long as you're asking, we're gonna do it. We're gonna just keep doing it. Like, oh, like, yeah, you know. So

Salisha Old Bull:

that's the thing, though, is like, there's all these. There's all these people who are indigenous people. And they went through some trauma and, like, historical trauma issue, like, maybe they were adopted or something. And now they're old, and now they're ready to find out where they're from. And there's, there's that. And sometime, it's in that case, where that's happening. And then it's, it's hard to, so that that ends up being I get, what the question is, is when do you? When do you say something? Because and it's like, well, there's all kinds of factors that play into it. Because if you're like an urban community, you're got all kinds of people from all over the place, it's not somebody, it's not probably not going to be somebody from where you're from. So what you say isn't even going to be a teachable moment to them. Because you only know the stuff where you're from. So how are they? Like, how are you supposed to say something if you don't know nothing about where they're from? And then on top of it, they need to, like, let's say they do know something. And you have no context because you're like, in a city setting or something like that, like you're in an urban setting, you know, like, there is no there is no a bunch of group of people doing the exact same thing. It's just a one person doing the weird thing. Oh, a bunch of times. Yeah, like, I guess that's how they do it. Like, I wouldn't know because I don't know how they do it, where they're from.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

this this topic is starting to hurt my brain.

Shandin Pete:

Well, the thing I think about it is, is you know, why why should we even care? Because back home, I often think that things are things are going okay. And you're be wrong. But yeah, but then But then again, but yeah, but then again, they're going probably better than it is when you're not back home. So then that that makes me think well why would I spend all my energy on these things that are not happening back home when I got all these things that are happening back home that I should be focusing on? Right now I shouldn't try to put all my energy into helping the situation that feels a little bit off but maybe I shouldn't metal right when there's things back home that you sort of do have some sort of influence or or some sort of way to help shift and guide it in the right way. So it goes to this point where you know, where are we putting our efforts and how much should we care now Aaron's in a position where he has to care because it's your job right

Aaron Brien:

the facts the thing I'm not back home

Shandin Pete:

you're back home so the things you say and you do when you're not back home at these things that you go to have a direct effect to things that happen back home Nick we need like a flowchart you know map this

Aaron Brien:

No we don't we don't need to skip this track on this CD

Shandin Pete:

skip it what

Aaron Brien:

is what it's 1030 at night in Montana and I want to talk about funny shit

Shandin Pete:

I was trying to bolster up money but you were resistant you are yeah you resisted it. I gave you some pretty comical examples of when not to smudge you in all your total medicine man on means are you sorry apartment ways. Back home I use this this particular way. I was like dude, I'm just trying to be funny make a joke. Even caught you off guard and throughout a good one and you didn't follow you just you folded my head

Aaron Brien:

just gone through our transcript of our conversation earlier Today, which maybe we should have ended the show

Shandin Pete:

I'm sure you could think of some good places not to smudge that's what I was getting it what is it? Not to be

Aaron Brien:

in an airplane? You

Shandin Pete:

get you get some federal charges. There you go. You know? Funny that's pretty serious actually. Agenda no fly list tell it Hey,

Aaron Brien:

felonies are not a joke

Shandin Pete:

those follow you for a lifetime. Yeah believe me

Aaron Brien:

that wasn't funny

Shandin Pete:

it wasn't funny at all. Fruit man low hanging fruit. Okay, well Felicia has got maybe she's got a funny example.

Salisha Old Bull:

I don't know. Well, they're all your examples.

Aaron Brien:

Oh. Valentine What was that a little Harvey dreamer song? Oh, yeah. Yeah. to gether for 35 years going straw. Yeah. I made you this love song.

Shandin Pete:

Happy anniversary. It's not when to

Aaron Brien:

you do you and you want her to? You and I? You and for forever and ever. You and sweetheart. We need many more. Hip Hop, grandma.

Shandin Pete:

No, I don't remember hip belt. Yeah, they come up with some dance. You drop. Oh. Oh, yeah, it's good. Something.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. It's been a year since we've been without the late great Clayton, Chief. Founder of little island creased singers. Oh, yeah. One of the greatest round dance groups ever. Iconic, iconic, iconic. So just this last weekend, they had his first annual or his first the for Memorial round dances. Yeah. And in Saskatchewan, so that's cool. I I'm not crazy. I don't know if you think about what they do. But I think that's a big deal.

Shandin Pete:

It is a big deal. Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

it is a big deal. So although our song turned into a little Island Creek cover song from the 1996 world champion hand drum singers who?

Salisha Old Bull:

Remember that long lead?

Aaron Brien:

Which No, I don't think

Salisha Old Bull:

it's thinking of a different tape.

Aaron Brien:

At once, upon through time, we were singing push that songs with the late admin old crow. Yeah, the old tribal building and Kroners like Jeff McDonald, there's a bunch of crow like kind of the Black was so group guys. And then me and Timmy smells and we were all we're gonna sing push dance songs, you know? So we started singing push down songs. And I don't know if our listeners know, but push that songs are kind of the crow version of like, love songs. They're real similar to round dance songs, man, but anyone who's heard push dance songs knows they're pretty. They're like a really pretty composed song. So we're singing. And we're in a circle. And this guy comes in one of the night security guards because we're singing at the tribal building. And it's like late, it's like 10 o'clock at night. So he comes in with a pop cannon. And on top of the pumpkin he had burned a bunch of sage and he set it on the pumpkin. He thought oh, I should. I should like to smudge for these guys. Yeah, so he walks in between the circle of singers and he sets that down. And you know when sage is burning, it's produces a lot of smoke. Yeah, so we're like jamming you know, singing these pushdown sounds are pretty soon rock coffee. And then Edmund just grabs that can walks outside. He throws that smudge out. You asked me when you're singing?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah exactly. That's it. Yes, you can't was a good story. Yeah, good story. Yeah, heartfelt, and answered the question all right, man, you know what? I don't know. Let's let's cut it off there, man. Aaron's getting tired and grumpy. Is it grumpy guy? Man, he's you're almost what? 45 that? Don't want to see it. Okay, sorry.

Aaron Brien:

I think we're sailing. Sure. We were only like a year apart right? I don't know.

Shandin Pete:

Came up awkward.

Aaron Brien:

Wait a second my entire life? Did you skip a year? My entire life? I thought we were like, either the same age or your year older than me. Am I wrong? Are you like way older to me? are younger.

Salisha Old Bull:

I'm older, but I think by year maybe? Yeah. Are you turning 41?

Aaron Brien:

Yep, this year? In May I'll turn 41

Shandin Pete:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, I mean, I'm all confused now. Why? Why are we poor shamed of age? Why is that? I feel like old Indian ladies wouldn't have been an ardent shamed.

Shandin Pete:

No, I don't and that's where the well okay, this is another topic because how many older ladies do you know dye their hair? Black.

Aaron Brien:

Now I'm talking about I didn't mean. Oh, oh, time. Oh,

Shandin Pete:

oh, whoa. Okay. Yeah, let me recheck that. That's yeah. Anyway, yeah. Yeah. No, I don't think so. Why would you be? Oh, no. That's the same thing with like, how much people make you know, what's wrong with publishing everybody's salaries that it worked for the tribal government? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Hi, oh. Let's do it.

Aaron Brien:

I say go for it because I'm underpaid.

Shandin Pete:

We ought to know who's getting over and underpaid is pretty important. Yeah. Anyway, that's different. That's, that's different podcasts. And that's a good one. We should talk about that one next, you know, transparency and treble government. Oh, no, no, I'm just kidding. settled down. You know, we need to get we need to wrap this. What?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, call it let's call it man. It was.

Shandin Pete:

It's good. I don't want to say you don't want to say because you got mad. It Yeah. What I didn't get mad. It did. You get frustrated.

Aaron Brien:

I mean, if you can only sit meetings with me, dude. Like, this is such a common conversation, this whole idea of performative Abian bullshit. It's like, yeah, it was just like, yesterday. It was quite a bit. yesterday. Yeah. You're gonna ask me, I'm in I'm on the front lines. Do this to work. Ain't no

Shandin Pete:

joke, dude. No, no, no, I think you're even I think you're I think you're right in the trenches, even more than academics might be. Oh, yeah, I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think I've seen it as much.

Aaron Brien:

lately. In fact, sometimes academics is part of my problem. Like they've created. The academic world has created issues for me. Yeah. It's like, Oh,

Salisha Old Bull:

my God. Yeah. So yeah, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

That's a whole nother that's a whole nother episode too. Right there.

Salisha Old Bull:

There's a whole nother episode. But it's a fun episode, though. It's like kind of what we were going. That's kind of where we were like that last little bit we were talking about because it's like, yeah, if you were to grab somebody from here, and send them back home, they're gonna find out it's not the way they think it is. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. And I think the ones that are really true and sincere and really want to reconnect, that's what they do. They find their way home and then they they learn and you can you can sort of see that transformation of their their understanding change. Yeah. But in no way. Let's call this one. All right. Call this son this was

Aaron Brien:

it was good to visit with you.

Shandin Pete:

It's fun. laughs at you

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