Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

#50 - Drama at Club NCAI: Native Identity Scuffles for Federal Scraps - Guest: Salisha Old Bull

• Salisha Old Bull, Shandin Pete, Aaron Brien • Season 3 • Episode 50

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Native American identity and organization. 0:00
Federal recognition for Native American tribes. 7:07
Native American identity and federal recognition. 19:25
Tribal recognition and federal government responsibilities. 21:58
Tribal recognition and identity. 27:21
Cultural identity and authenticity. 34:22
Native American policy and advocacy. 42:26
Tribal sovereignty and cultural preservation. 47:19

Guest: Salisha OldBull (Salish/Crow)
Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)

Podcast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
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Aaron Brien:

Hey Walgren just called me Should I call him back live?

Shandin Pete:

Okay, yeah, go ahead see what happens.

Aaron Brien:

Hello? Hey, what's going on? He left us on a cliffhanger. What the hell shut off the live wait for you guys to pinpoint what was being said at what happened? Hey man, you got to we're recording right now that's the whole point on a cliffhanger you can't do that we had to let

Shandin Pete:

them monetize this. We got to monetize preview. Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

yeah we gave you a trailer man trailer in a trailer you're able to look it up. He's

Shandin Pete:

gonna look it up.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, look up and see a I incident or whatever. And we're going to talk about it and you'll just have to wait seven weeks for the episode. On the clip weeks, six to eight weeks. If it goes any longer give us a call Did you hear me say yeah, cook dinner. cook me some goulash. I'll come up and we'll visit. Yeah, spaghetti. Do it. I've been waiting for like two years for you to invite me over for dinner. We told you like Walter does that invitation thing he invites me over to dinner but doesn't tell me where he lives invite you telling me where you live. Oh, yeah. Oh, sorry, bro. On a cliffhanger. Where's that thing again? NCAI. Yeah, National Congress of America of the American Indian. Look it up. But we're recording right now so fatally stabbed?

Salisha Old Bull:

He was trying to defeat the fight that way. It might be might be that might be.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, we need the link. We're going to talk about it right now. So we can cliffhanger. Hold my arm hold on that one and see a doo doo just send them the link. Similarly, just put them on the podcast. It just took too much time. You can you can take it off.

Shandin Pete:

Oh no. We're gonna leave it. It's the impromptu. Impromptu impromptu. Like impromptu. But almost.

Aaron Brien:

It was almost like a good segue like Walt asking what why we left them hanging.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, it is. It is. So yeah, this is so this is the deal. And we've got what got some.

Aaron Brien:

I got it transcribed. What

Shandin Pete:

is it? Oh, you got it transparent?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, well read it. Okay. You're

Shandin Pete:

gonna give us context first or no? No,

Aaron Brien:

no, no. All right. Just go read it. The context after it says I'll try. Okay. Says I apologize to all the state tribes in here. But NCAA AI gave you the false hope that that we are all the same. We are not. We are federally recognized for a reason. We fought these wars while you guys sat on the sidelines and waited until the dust had settled. You guys are coming out of the woodwork to start being Indian. The crowd starts booing and then he says well get some federal recognition. There's a process and quote, That was a quote from the southern you check tribal chairman.

Shandin Pete:

I don't think it's Sunday. No, no, not southern you. Northern you. Just you just used Oh,

Aaron Brien:

I didn't know there was okay. So just you the you chairman. That

Shandin Pete:

yeah, yeah. That Yeah. gets pretty clear. Yeah. And I don't know the difference. I'm not familiar with that region, a whole lot difference

Aaron Brien:

our deference in And both. Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

so this we haven't really talked about this a whole lot we kind of skirt around it. And it has it's related to identity. Why we

Aaron Brien:

talked about it a little bit. Oh, give the context give the context though. Oh,

Shandin Pete:

the context. So I think its annual right, this convention or this Congress, the National Congress of the American Indian. So, admittedly, I'm unfamiliar with what this organization does. I'm unfamiliar with how often they meet, I think they meet once a year, maybe? I don't know. Okay, so let's just say no. I don't not sure how many members they have, or what tribes are involved. So I'm going in pretty ignorant. It's a start. They're pretty ignorant. But apparently, there's an amendment to their constitution. Their bylaws? I don't know. Apparently, this organization has bylaws and a constitution? I don't know. It's a big organization. So they have to have some sort of written rules, which is kind of odd to me. Right off? Well, I don't know. And the amendment is to remove state, state recognized tribes, as voting members from the Congress of the Congress of the American Indian or National Congress has him Yeah. Okay. That's as far as I know. And I got this, seen this on Twitter, this little clip of this gentleman making a statement, and a number of other tribal representatives made not a statement to that effect, but again, supporting the amendment saying that, yeah, we're, I'm, I'm for this amendment. state recognized tribes should not have voting power in this Congress. So he's not the only one. He's just the one who's happened to get blasted on Twitter or ex formerly known as Twitter.

Salisha Old Bull:

Isn't the one he's the one who went up there and said it.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Yeah. So this is, this is what I'm curious about, and maybe solution, or Aaron can clarify. But I was curious, when I heard that. I thought, well, what what is this process? And what does the tribe have to do? To get federal federally recognized? There's seven, there's seven criteria, mandatory criteria. And apparently, four, only four are really the most difficult. And those criteria are number one. And this one seems like straightforward that a tribe or the petitioner, whoever is trying to get federal recognition, should demonstrate that it has been identified as an American Indian entity, on a substantially continuous basis since the 1900s. Or since 1900. criteria. Number one, that's fair, right? That's like saying you can just all sudden claim to be a tribe. If you hadn't been since, and I don't know why 1900. But I guess 1900. What do you weigh in on that? That fair? unfair. Maybe this is not something we need to talk about.

Salisha Old Bull:

I have to hear the rest of them because I'm pretty rusty. As

Shandin Pete:

to the rest. There's some problems here, even from the get go on a conceptual basis, though, right? On a conceptual basis. Well, the whole

Aaron Brien:

idea of recognition is weird anyway, but Yeah, do that. Do the rest. Okay.

Shandin Pete:

Okay. Number two, show. Number two is show that a predominant portion of the petitioning group comprises a distinct community, and has existed as a community from historical times until present.

Aaron Brien:

What are their lyrical, but well, for them? They already said it in the first one, it's 19. Yeah, that's kind of redundant, right? So it's sort of dug into

Shandin Pete:

those. It does feel Dundon redundant. Number three, now, this is this is kind of a tough one here demonstrate that it has maintained political influence, or authority over its members, as an autonomous entity from historical times and tell present. So again, historical times, I don't know, but maintain political influence or authority over its members, as an autonomous entity. Okay. Number four, provide a copy of the group's present governing document what including its membership criteria, okay. All right. This is getting kind of crazy here to me. Anyway, number five. So this is all just for a tribe right? To get federal recognition. procedures for establishing that an American Indian group exists as an Indian tribe. That's what it is. All right, number five demonstrate that its membership consists of individuals who descended from the historical Indian tribes or from historical Indian tribes or tribe or tribes that combined and functioned as a single autonomous political entity and provided a current membership list. Number six show that the membership of the petitioning group is comprised principally of persons who are not members of any acknowledged North American Indian tribe. And finally, number seven demonstrate that either the petitioner nor its members are the subject of congressional legislation that has expressly terminated or forbidden the federal relationship. If the criteria is considered met, if the available evidence establishes a reasonable likelihood of the validity of the facts related to that criterion, then they're federally recognized. All right, go, go. Tell me your grapes. You had

Salisha Old Bull:

there's part of the list is like a chicken, what comes first the chicken or the egg question? Okay. So the issue is, there's tribes, there's tribes that tried to get federally recognized that were displaced during reservation era. Right. And because of whatever disagreement that they they had in a political context with, like knit, like tribes that they would normally ally with, somehow they would get split. Because how hard it was during that time. Yeah. And so those tribes, when it came down to the federal government coming in and doing the allotment, they, they didn't get assigned anywhere, because they were traveling or because they couldn't, they couldn't partner with their normal partners, like something come up, and they decided to go this direction or that direction, or maybe they just weren't getting along, or who knows? They. So those would be like landless tribes. And they never got assigned anywhere. So then. So there's a tribe like that in Montana, and it seems like, Okay, I'm getting ahead of myself. But the, the criteria that is there, one of them says something about proving historical context, one of them says something about a political political history. Yeah. They're supposed to provide like, evidence of this. Yeah. And then when they submit those things, it goes to Washington, DC. Yeah. And it gets put on a pile of lists of like, somebody has to review these applications. In turn. I don't know somebody, somebody reviews it. And always, always one of those things. It's like a circular argument. It's like you can't have you can't prove that you had this. If if you didn't have the documentation, like let's say, what was early documentation, like a treaty, like you can, like if you were omitted from the treaty, then you don't have documentation. But the whole, the whole purpose is you're they're trying to say, well, that's what we're trying to tell you is, we didn't we didn't get not that they wanted a treaty. But it's like, well, we didn't get on that. And so yeah, we don't have a documentation to show you. Like we just know that we were here. Yeah. And so the arguments now when it comes down to is because because some states, their tribe, the tribe is on. Like, they don't rely on like casino income or anything like that. They're like a resource. It's more like a resource income, like a dam or something like something weird like that, where it's a very small income and it gets distributed in some states. Or maybe it is a question, who knows? Anyway, it comes down to the breakdown of resources. That even though there's like oral history, or even though there's a Um, there might be some documentation written like, oh, yeah, there was this band that went off. So in Montana was like, over by Great Falls, the little shell tribe is one that's a state recognized tribe, even though like the surrounding child would have a stories about their existence. That circular argument comes back. And, and so so the politics becomes or the Yeah, the politics becomes like, well, it comes down to resources like, like a tribe doesn't want to accept the whole group of an entire group of like descendants or descendant of that tribe, or they don't want to accept that. And because then that means you have to split the resources with with that tribe. And people don't like to talk about that. But that's really what it always is, is like, and those are, those are like, the politicians of the tribe, you know, like, the politicians will say, like, will doubt no one ever say it, but it usually always comes down to money, like people don't want to let go of any type of money that is coming in. And so then they do this, like, don't want to aid a the child to get accepted. But in this instance, with the National Congress, yeah, I think it's a little bit unfair, like, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna say it's a little bit unfair, because there's some tribes that legitimately have been fighting for pretty much forever trying to get some type of some type of recognition. And to have somebody say that they're just not trying to be native or whatever he said. It's super insulting, because it's like, well, they've been trying, it's just that the criteria that the federal government has, which hasn't been changed? Yeah. It's really hard to, it's really hard to get the evidence that they want. And in the, in the way that they want it in order to be federally recognized. Yeah. And it's that and it's even become, to the point where probably in the last 10 years, tribes have to existing federally recognized tribes have fought to disenroll or unrecognized tribes for whatever reason. Right. So that's happened. I can't remember the name of that type. That got unrecognized, but um, and he's in eastern United States.

Shandin Pete:

So yeah, so that so the deal, so boils down to this idea of recognition. And this this criteria that's put in place by the federal government. So then, I don't know. I have a hard time. Well, no, I get I get it. I get the argument. Right. So federal recognition, opens up the doorway to resources. Yeah, that's all it does. Right. That's all so it's all recognition. does. Does that.

Salisha Old Bull:

Does that sorry. For now? Yeah. I mean, you get you get. Right. Yeah. So if something happens at the federal level, which, to me, doesn't seem very often. I feel like the last time that that tribes got a real anything from the federal level was when Cobell came through the Cobell settlement. And they I mean, not everybody got money from that way. Lots of people got money from that. Well,

Shandin Pete:

well, well, not not just the settlements, but Indian Health Service, Small Indian, small business owners. Anything related to federal dollars for Indian tribes, all that opens up once you get recognition. That's right. I mean, is that right? That's it. I think. I mean, that's Aaron. Is that true?

Aaron Brien:

I don't know.

Shandin Pete:

Well, okay, I'm gonna say that's true. Once you're nice recognized.

Aaron Brien:

You getting three swing allocations happen? Yes. Well, yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. I mean, that's why else would you do it? Well, no, I shouldn't say that. Yeah, I'm saying getting federally recognized. Puts the obligation onto the federal government. Yeah, to fold you into its wing as a Ward. Ward of its rest. Yeah, well, Good. Yeah. Well, so

Salisha Old Bull:

the twisted part about it is, so the twisted part about it is what did we learn in college is where the Indian problem, that's what we're taught in college where the Indian problem and, and so we've kind of preached that and like that's, that's how the federal government thought of us and I feel like that's how we're still kind of treated in the United States In the United States, we're still treated like, I don't know, we're not we're not created, right anyway. So if the backwards thing is that they had systemic things in place to try to terminate us, so they can just call us a straight American, take away, take away all anything that makes us who we are. And, and we're all, we're all twisted up, because on one side, we get mad because we're on the pedigree system. And on the other hand, we don't want to let go of that, because then we can't call ourself, you know, federally recognized if, if we don't abide by that, and they got us in this weird little bind, but like in the in the beginning, that whole of the things that they put in place were meant to do, do it where we're supposed to be terminated eventually, you know, it was supposed to, we were supposed to be self, whatever, self governing whatever, but not federally recognized, not dependent on on them, like they weren't going to help us with anything, but they don't. We're not as far along, there's some places, you know, like, we don't get, I don't know, I'm getting, I feel like I'm getting too emotionally invested.

Shandin Pete:

And getting preachy. Getting too preachy, let's, let's break this down. Because it it's complicated. It's complicated. Once you start tangling in with federal things, when you start tangling in with treaty language, I mean, it's gets into this place, I don't like to go, man. I don't like it. I don't like it at all. But fundamentally, the issue that I see is, no matter what this idea of recognition, like the, it's upheld, at least in this comment as, as some sort of hierarchy of who's who, in Indian Country. If you're federally recognized, then apparently, the United States Government who's got a lot of dollars, and then, you know, accepts you as a ward of the state, as up has an opportunity and obligation to take care of you. That's what recognition feels like to me.

Salisha Old Bull:

So

Shandin Pete:

when I read these, these criteria for acknowledgement of recognition, I'm gonna think Well, yeah, I mean, if you have all those things in place, then what's the big deal? Why do you even want to be recognized? Half of the tribes we have right now? I don't think fit that criteria. I mean, are we together? We autonomous group? I mean, the one that struck me was where it was, it was a group comprised of a distinct distinct community. I mean, yeah, I don't know. But there's like this idea of, of, of a sort of tribal lifestyle that's being maintained. And I don't necessarily feel like that's completely honest and true. today. I don't know. Aaron, what do you think? All right.

Aaron Brien:

Here we go. mic up.

Shandin Pete:

You get that mic fixed up?

Aaron Brien:

Well, first of all,

Shandin Pete:

tell me your thoughts.

Aaron Brien:

First of all, I thought this would be a funner topic.

Shandin Pete:

Well, it can be I can be

Aaron Brien:

no okay. So I think we should be real clear for those people who aren't from our country or even understand the very basics of the tribal situation near. The term federally recognized as you said, just implies that there's a fiduciary responsibility on behalf of the government for a variety of things healthcare, education annuity, right and there's this in the easiest way to explain it is that Whether there was a deal made, whether it was a good deal or not, is not the point. It's just this. Yeah. This agreement that we're gonna we're not gonna go to the reservation, but we were forced on the reservations are Yeah. But on. On that now we became the responsibility in theory of the federal government. Now, I tried looking it up, I don't know of any state processes for to be a state recognized tribe. Right. Um, how you identify your your federal recognition is your tribe will have a criteria for enrollment to become a member of the tribe, you get a little card, such as blood quantum and everything. Yeah. Tribes. It's typically one quarter, but it varies from tribe to tribe in terms of traceable native blood. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Okay. Okay. Take a breath man.

Aaron Brien:

Man, imagine trying to explain this to somebody or to like a seven year old or like, because that's it doesn't make any sense. Right? When I used to teach history of Indians in the US, yeah, at USC. Casey, I would start to the class the course off with if you're looking for this situation, tribes today, to make sense through this history, you're wrong class. It's not gonna make any sense. There's things that will happen through the course of this class, even though they're based on a timeline, they're not going to make any sense. Because there wasn't a rationale for some of this behavior. Right. And which led to policy right. Yeah. But we're getting ahead of ourselves, because the situation at the National Congress was not about the process of federal recognition or recognition. It was it was simpler, a little more simple. Yeah, it was whether or not the state tribes state recognized tribes should be allowed to be participants in the National Congress of American Indian. Yeah. And men is like, why don't why can't they? Why can't they join the circus? Like, I just don't? It's like, it's a club. First of all, I'm gonna say something that's pretty controversial. Say it. Okay. Okay. The National Congress of the American Indian is typically not tribal people that have the best interests of tribal people. At the forefront. The Congress has become this club of people, for whatever reason to play government. It's a form of man. Yeah. Okay. It's a form. It's a form of like, high toning and prestige. And it's kind of dislike by the Ford mentality. Again, it's still this like, Yeah, let's go. Let's go beg for scraps and at the foot of the crown. And I don't understand why we still think that this Congress is, is thinking of us here. Yeah. Indian Country. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I do think the philosophy or the, the, the mission of it, and its intent may have been good. Yeah. If it's become a place where tribal leaders feel like they can be little state recognized tribes, when not knowing the states tribes situation. Yeah, like I said, the little shell band of the Ojibwe, which is now a federally recognized tribe, because of timing and history and situation, circumstance, was not part of the process during that time. Yeah. That doesn't mean they're not tribal. And doesn't mean they're any less tribal than me, are you? And in fact, I would say the majority of federally recognized tribes today are not tribal. Right, as I was mentioning, and myself included, right, like I'm writing there. And so I don't understand why this good ol boys club can't just say, the more the merrier. If we are acting on behalf of all tribal people, then why not let them come, maybe encouraged them to fulfill that federal recognition if that's even what they want? Yeah, the Menominee Nation actually fought against federal recognition. Yeah. I don't know if you remember that. There was this kind of thing. And I think they're federally recognized again, but yeah, you have tribes that were terminated during termination. But yet the termination process was a hell of a lot quicker than the application process for recognition. There's no rhyme or reason for some of this. Yeah. So for I don't know, the chairman for the Ute tribe, and I personally don't have anything against him. Part of me because I like, chaos sometimes was like that. Maybe I don't know what happened to lead him to, to say those comments because, yeah, maybe something happened that he thought I need to say this. This used to happen. So context plays a big part. We don't know the context. But I know me personally, I would never say that a state recognized tribe is any less Indian than than me. Right? Because even though I've dedicated a large portion of my life, to being cultural, a cultural person, I'm, I feel less Indian than a lot of people. You know what I mean? So it's not like I can go and look, I can't look at somebody and say that tribes not native. Right. Yeah. Because I tell you what, man, when I'm sitting in meetings with my little blazer jacket on my little sport coat, and my little my little notepad and your fancy, do my fancy coffee cup? I don't feel very Indian there. Yeah. You know, I mean, so. Yeah, ribbon circuit. Yeah. I don't understand this, like, that mentality of like, well, we're the ones closest to the fort. You can join us because you're gonna take my powdered eggs. She had let them have them. Yeah. Yeah. If they weren't mediocre healthcare, they can have it. Right. Yeah.

Salisha Old Bull:

Dr. giggles Dr. giggles Go ahead.

Aaron Brien:

Me, me personally, I would encourage recognize tribes to find another way to be successful. Find another way to make it because the Fed route is not necessarily the way to go. Yeah, but for some reason, we've bought into this idea that the federal recognition makes us native. And it doesn't, we're the only people that do it. I don't understand it sometimes. Just like, Chandi let me use you as an example. Okay. Do it. Are you okay with me sharing some of your

Shandin Pete:

ancestry? ancestry.com. Yeah, do it. Well, you know, your,

Aaron Brien:

your father's novel. Yeah. And your mother's from barley. She's she's from the bitter bad of the Salish. Yeah, but she's also mixed, right?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Yeah. Does not Norwegian, yet her dad's

Aaron Brien:

no reason. So yeah, you you, you've identified your entire life as a Salish person. Yeah. Okay. Most people that I know would recognize you, as a salesperson. I don't know anyone that's like, oh, Shawn Dean, the Navajo guy. Like, I've never heard that. Even though your name Shawn Dean. Pete. Yeah, that's fine. It's still we think we think of you not only being Salish, but being like kind of one of one of the younger people that are heavily involved in that culture. The identity at no point at no point is I ever like, you know, Sunday. I really, I need to see your ID

Shandin Pete:

I need to check your federal recognition before gonna

Aaron Brien:

do this. I mean, I really need to know that you're legit. I never, I never did that. And myself. Like, I'm not a full blooded Crow Indian. Right. So I actually have ancestry from the little shell. Right. So does that make me less crow? I feel like it doesn't. You don't make it. Yeah, crow.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, it doesn't.

Aaron Brien:

We're all less we're all less than what we should be. Yeah, like it's identity. It's the cultural part of it that I'm worried about. So

Salisha Old Bull:

it's so messed up because it's like before, before all of that happened, we married all kinds of people, because nobody was ever going to be 100%. That's crazy talk.

Aaron Brien:

Right? You're right. Yeah, you're totally right.

Shandin Pete:

So this, okay, yeah,

Aaron Brien:

we're all mixed. All three of us here would mix. Yeah. Does and I don't feel like at any point Did I look at you or say Alicia and think you know it, it kind of it devalues them for me a little bit because my kids, my kids, their mother's Blackfeet does that mean that like they're less crow or less or more or whatever? Yeah. And that's not how the world works like when you're working when you live in Indian country, and you're doing the work to be native, that I think that argument is not happening with yourself. It's only when you step outside of the cultural world and your fringed idea when that identity things real Yeah, but when you're in sailors doings you feel pretty Salish. I'm sure don't don't feel like I got to sit on the side where only the the half breed sit, like this sort of thing. So So when it comes down to being Native, your enrollment card doesn't have anything to do with it. What I will say there is something to be said for ancestry. Like where your where your blood and your heritage does come from? Does that does that mean it needs to be quantified? No. I don't think so. Yeah, I would agree. I don't think so. Those who no no. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It I feel like somebody who attacks state recognized tribes albeit I don't know the situation is somebody who themselves has identity problems. Hmm.

Shandin Pete:

Might be

Salisha Old Bull:

I'll be Latin does that?

Shandin Pete:

Get it, I get it. This is what I got from what you're saying. And I want to interject like a feeling a feeling that I get. And I know that some people get it too and I'm sure this person who said this probably has the same feeling. And but but I think you're right, there's it goes a lot deeper into the human psychology of what we do and how we say it because we have some reservation about about something that something that bothers us, and it gives us a I don't know we just get this instinct about things that might be wrong and might be right, but our emotion takes over. So we all we all get bothered when we see a group of people trying to be what is obviously not an authentic version of themselves, right? Like marijuana and when I was a kid, we used to have these we used to call people posers. Remember losers. Yeah. Because we were all metal hardcore metal and then we seen somebody who, you know, they're they went and bought an Iron Maiden t shirt. And because it was trendy, those guys was a poser because

Aaron Brien:

it will probably not Iron Maiden. It's probably Metallica. Oh, well. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

You know, well see the entryway into heavy metal is vast. Okay. And Iron Maiden was one of the foundational bands into heavy metal. They're not that metal. But they got cool T shirts.

Aaron Brien:

I would say I would say now we're heading into a whole nother argument that I frankly am gonna love it

Shandin Pete:

what on it so I'm just the example is so you're in a group who's obviously metal because he listened to Metallica Slayer, your head banger. You party on the weekends you dress the way that you ought to as a metal person. Then you see somebody. I don't know how sick for example, a jock? Knee starts you You know, he buys the Black Album and gets a Metallica t shirt. That guy's a poser because he didn't hadn't lived the lifestyle of a metal head up to that stage. So at what point then, can that person enter into the authentic metal heads? I don't know. But when the person well, when you see that person and you instantly get this feeling like, oh, yeah, he doesn't know, he doesn't know what it's like to be us. And I think that situation comes up often. And we I, the episode we had with Ryan Emanuel, and sort of open open my eyes, I mean, not that I, my eyes were closed, but to it, I just didn't understand the reality of this wave of, of colonialism, that tech came in, those people had experienced that at such such a time period that we can't even understand it feels like, but yeah, so that that reality of, of where we're at in the West versus where tribes are in the east, I think is vastly different. So imparting that sort of judgment, you know, that they are to be, you know, hardcore heavy metal. Dudes is this, it doesn't apply. It doesn't apply. But where it does apply is when people start parroting something that they're not, and that feels wrong. And we see that often. And we talked about it a while back and in academics, when we get these people who don't know a whole lot, but they're writing these vast volumes about how we think and how we are, and it's off is way off. It's way off. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

But again, again, I think we're jumping the gun on this. Okay, we're getting too far. Okay. You're right. But this simply just comes down to a club.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, that's, that's the important part. That's important part. Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Like all this stuff you're saying is legit. And all the stuff said, it's just saying is like, exactly, to the point. But that's almost like a whole nother episode. Like this idea of enrollment, this idea of recognition in the process and what that means in terms of treaty, Executive Order, tribe, all that right. Like it's crazy. This, this is a lot more simple. Yes. Is a club. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that really has no authority. Okay. By it's a club.

Shandin Pete:

Do they not have a third? Okay.

Salisha Old Bull:

Okay, let's back up there. They have their their life? What is it? They're they're like a group of politicians, a lot of them. A lot of them who have leadership, or politicians who have they kind of do have a lot of authority, because some of them are councilman, or in that guy's case of business, business council? Well, I

Aaron Brien:

think individually, they have authority, but Congress themselves. I've never heard of a law being passed because of the National Congress of American Indians. Whoa.

Salisha Old Bull:

Yeah. They're like the writers. They're like the writers. They're like the authors. They're like, right, they'll write the language for a bill and the bill will get brought either to, you know, the House or the Senate. And then those words are the things that the Congress, the elected officials, they're reading.

Aaron Brien:

Like, lobby, like a lobby. Yeah,

Salisha Old Bull:

kinda Yeah. But they're like that, that they're like the people who kind of, they're helping to steer the policy, that, that the federal government is, you know, when they decided to pass something, you know, they're the ones who kind of are having those conversations and trying to figure out how to make those changes. Let

Shandin Pete:

me read you the mission of the National Congress of the American Indian really sorry to clarify this, right. It's very brief. So bullet point number one of the mission of the National Congress of American Indians, protect and enhance treaty and sovereign rights. Bullet point number two, secure our traditional laws, cultures and ways of life for our descendants. Number three, bullet number three, promote a common understanding of the rightful place of tribes in the family, of American governments, what And number four, improve the quality of life for Native communities and people? Let me reread that number three, because I didn't get that promote a common understanding of the rightful place of tribes in the family of American governments.

Aaron Brien:

I think it's safe to say that I don't understand what the Congress does. Yeah,

Salisha Old Bull:

they're like, it's like what you said they're like, lobbyists are like, yeah, they're like the ones who sort of swing around and say like, they try to like say, Well, this is what RNA This is what different tribes want. This is what we're buying. For an endo, like go visit the offices that do see and try to get people to vote and they'll be the one to sort of say, hey, you know, right, right in support of this, blah, blah, blah. And

Shandin Pete:

yeah, apparently a unified voice of Indian country. This is what it says on the website since 1944. NCAA AI has served as a unified voice for American Indian and Alaska Native issues. Yeah, so not really like a law passing body. But like a lobbying. It seems like helping to guide policy.

Aaron Brien:

I don't want to be a part of the group. I don't feel like I work. I work for a tribal government. Yeah. I work daily within cultural resource law, which is Yeah. Really, like it's this toolkit of law that tribes can use. I've never heard once, ever, anything about the National Congress of the American Union? Yeah. Even when I was at the National Association of Tribal Historic preservation officers, they never said, This is what the Congress is doing in terms of cultural resource law and how it can help tribes never heard of it. When I'm part of a tribal consultation committee for our region, which is in North Dakota. You ever never seen it? I don't. Yeah. I don't know what they do. Yeah, we should find a member of

Shandin Pete:

it. We need to find a member because I think at least I feel

Aaron Brien:

are whatever.

Salisha Old Bull:

Yeah, let's call the guy that you

Shandin Pete:

ask him. Well, if you listen to the Listen, what's his name? Why are you why are you so?

Aaron Brien:

into us, use micro X and I'll say yeah, Boo. Boo. Are you mad?

Salisha Old Bull:

Calm down.

Aaron Brien:

Why not? Why not? We need numbers, man.

Salisha Old Bull:

Ribbons. What about your one and a half hour? prayer this morning? are welcome in prayer. Yeah. Yeah, in vocational Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah.

Salisha Old Bull:

I thought this was gonna be in a good way. The opposite, good way.

Shandin Pete:

Didn't start that Congress out in a good way. They were taking our advice.

Aaron Brien:

He was like, they bought they go learn today. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Well, you know what, there's something to be said about that. Because you ought to be able to speak your mind. Like, I think it's okay. If he said that what so? I don't I don't not. That doesn't mean I have to agree with him. I mean, people would you say people should feel comfortable saying things that I say their mind but not hateful mean. Dude, I

Aaron Brien:

say crazy stuff all the time. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

But you have a somewhat of a filter. I said somewhat.

Aaron Brien:

I mean, I wouldn't say anything like that like that. Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

yeah. That's somewhat of a filter. You know, you know, decency. You

Salisha Old Bull:

know where to draw the line decorum?

Shandin Pete:

I don't know. You do.

Aaron Brien:

We fought wars. Well, you guys sat on the sidelines to start being Indian.

Salisha Old Bull:

First of all, like he's like, real young, though. So what war did you

Aaron Brien:

see, I didn't see Apple.

Shandin Pete:

Turn at the Black Snake Genet where you

Aaron Brien:

were arrested. I didn't see you chaining yourself to that bulldozer. I didn't see you running with the ancestors at the knee. No, I just I knew what he was saying. Yeah, in a way. Maybe he acknowledged like maybe he was trying to say something about too many players. You know, because we've all been in meetings where just too many people and muddies the waters, you need to save some money. But I feel like he started out like this. He started out like, this is what I'm going to say. And then he got caught up in the heat of the moment because he starts out with this. I apologize to all the state tribes in here. But NCAI gave you the this false sense of hope that it just goes down. Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

wasn't the there's an apology always end with an insult. Is that how it goes? I'm sorry to say this to you the insult, you know what he did? He did?

Aaron Brien:

With all due respect. So, yeah, I'd be curious. I'd be curious to know if he's going to have a response to his own comments, you know, because yeah, I'm sure he's gonna get lit up. Yeah. And the Twittersphere. One thing, one thing about a lot of these guys that I respect is like, they don't care man, like, this guy's not sure. He said what he wanted to say. And, and, and in some ways, maybe that's what the Congress is for maybe that maybe those kinds of debates happen a lot more. And someone just happened to have their Twitter on. But I just like who still has Twitter, though, for real? Just, maybe, maybe that argument needs to happen, though. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know. All I know, is it like you said, it comes down to this really odd thing. This club, this club, which we see also at an in, in a microcosm of each, or many tribal nations are Confederate

Aaron Brien:

Mini with Joni mini Riccione.

Shandin Pete:

You see this, these clubs, and everybody knows it. And it's just everybody's fighting for scraps of the of the federal pie. Meanwhile, inlet and these other people that you're talking about, we just we do our business. We do our business. We do the things that are listed on on this list minus some of the some of the things right, right, we don't really need to demonstrate our identity to anybody, we just do it, we're living it. And our communities and our groups that are cohesive, and in that particular way, they don't need to be defined, they're defined in the things and the actions that we do. We don't need to send a governing document to anybody to say this is how we exist as a, as a cultural people. We don't need to prove that through documentation that lines out how we govern, or anything like that we don't keep a list of those who who are participants in in our cultural pursuits. Yeah, that none of that exists, all this criteria that put forth and that that gets you into the club, is really sort of the antithesis of what a tribe is an ought to be, I think, anyway. So I think that's weird. When I when I read this mission of the of this Congress is, you know, to secure traditional laws, cultures and way of life. It's, it seems backwards, it seems like it's securing the traditional laws and cultures from 1936 forward, you know, the New Deal, you know, the, the new the constitution that all these tribes get to have and get to be just like, a small America, you know, that. That's, that's what it seems like to me. And I think that's wrong.

Aaron Brien:

So you're right, I think, yeah,

Shandin Pete:

I think if you're if you're state recognized, man,

Aaron Brien:

don't worry about it.

Shandin Pete:

And, and some, some researchers and authors have suggested that probably the biggest motivation to get federally recognized the so. So these tribes can build a casino. I don't know if that's true or not. I don't know. What the motivation is.

Salisha Old Bull:

It seems like I don't know. I guess. It's just hard to saw them political. I just noticed that there are tribes that get real mad, they do have that type of income. And, yeah, and yeah, I think I think it's hard. It's hard to understand because, because where we come from, none of us have had that none of us had that type of income coming in and just like this huge influx of money, like none of us have had that lower from right. So yeah. It's the it feels like that's, it's you know, it's hard to, it's hard to deny that that's a factor. Right.

Shandin Pete:

Right. Yeah. Casinos and weed. That's, that seems like some of the driving force behind tribalism today.

Aaron Brien:

All I know is they want to come into the champagne room, let him in.

Shandin Pete:

The cork. The cork Man,

Aaron Brien:

because because they're not given to the dance, they're going to realize all we should have hung out outside. Remember back in the day, when you when you used to party, and you'd be in someone's garage, or you'd be on someone's porch, and you'd be having a good time party, and then somebody says, let's go check out the bar, then you go to the bar, and then you're like, go home. Yeah. To me, that's what it is. It's like, hey, guys want to come in and join us fed guys. But then at the same time, we're like, I don't know. Should we let them in? It's like, I think they're cool. It's like, all right. I mean, I don't know what you're gonna bring anything with them already. We gotta like. Do just let them in. Because guess what, it's wack in here.

Shandin Pete:

Drink up all our stuff. Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

I do. And you know who I'm talking about?

Shandin Pete:

The same person all the time. The mooch leaves with about six or seven cans in his Levi jacket. Oh,

Aaron Brien:

he's giving them a ride.

Shandin Pete:

Because he got ditched because nobody wanted him.

Aaron Brien:

Dude, I think we're thinking of the same person. it well. No, no, I think one person gave.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, many people. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

See me Joey Johnny.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, that's what it comes down to? I don't know the answer. Well, I do know the answer. I don't know. I guess this is what I don't know is I don't know, the feeling that the state recognized tribes have their

Aaron Brien:

reality I gave you that. I wonder if someone was to do? Yeah, sorry. No, go ahead. I wonder if someone was to like scope state tribes and say, what is it you're actually looking for? Yeah. Like, what do you think? What do you is it an identity thing? Right, you're like, you need to be part of the club? Or is this Is it as simple as annuity and subsidies and tax breaks? And yeah, and in that case, just turn your tribe into a nonprofit? And then have memberships start a cult? You know, I mean, because I don't know what it is. Yeah, I don't quite know. I don't know. Yeah. But then as we're also sitting here from the side of that, like, right, we enrolled, I'm an enrolled member of the Crow tribe, like, yeah. So I don't know, I don't know what it's like to be part of a state recognized tribe or anything like that. So

Shandin Pete:

I can imagine it the draw to have, you know, dollars to, you know, build housing for your people or, you know, to reacquire your traditional lands. To develop again, we're

Aaron Brien:

jumping ahead. I know, I know. It's really just about this club. This club. It's

Shandin Pete:

not a Yeah, it's not even about recognition. It's about the club. It's a book club, that these they won rights to vote in this club. What are they voting for? Voting for what I voted on,

Aaron Brien:

whether they're gonna have it at the Hard Rock next year, or Changa. Dude, I don't know.

Shandin Pete:

Why are we so out of the loop on this? These guys are representing us. Right? Why don't know, that's because

Aaron Brien:

they're not representing us.

Salisha Old Bull:

We're talking about Thanksgiving.

Shandin Pete:

representing this? Well, you know, we've been on this for a while. I think we beat it. Yeah. We know, we know that. We got all the answers. Just follow what we said. And everything will be cool. No, I don't think so. No, but there's a lot of unknowns. There's a lot of perspectives, and this just happened. And this just happened. So it's fairly new.

Salisha Old Bull:

It's just happened. What did

Aaron Brien:

just happen? Let's see what happens in the next few days. And then yeah,

Shandin Pete:

see if we get canceled.

Aaron Brien:

No, we don't say anything too controversial. I sound like a political group.

Shandin Pete:

Pretty clear. Yeah.

Salisha Old Bull:

It's pretty clear. What matters, dad. Okay, well, let's read your dad.

Aaron Brien:

You're mad at your dad. Alright, let's do it. Everybody

Shandin Pete:

Okay

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