Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

#46 - Inside Indian Country: A Discussion on Kool-Aid, Pork Chops and Indian Law - Guest: Bryan Dupuis

• Bryan Dupuis, Aaron Brien, Shandin Pete • Season 3 • Episode 46

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Typical life. 2:25
Bryan’s law degree and how he got started. 10:55
I'm glad people are listening. 18:30
Dirty Belly. 19:55
What is the legal definition of heritage? 27:59
The Revolutionary War and the royal proclamation. 34:45
Wabash Land Company and the Rebellion. 38:56
Proclivity and the revolutionary war. 41:20
Race Judicata and the legal system. 46:36
Have you ever seen white people eat pork chops? 52:39
Shake and bake and shake and bake. 54:56
Orange Kool Aid. 56:07
Sovereignty is about autonomy. 1:00:32
Sovereignty vs. morality. 1:01:39
Skepticism on the legal system. 1:08:05
Spaces of Sovereignty. 1:13:16
Fair and inclusive so everyone can hear. 1:17:19
Not a system designed for us. 1:19:50
Unification of the supreme court. 1:23:05

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Aaron Brien:

Are you good at 12121212? I

Shandin Pete:

wonder why they say Mic check? One two. Why not like, mic check? A B.

Aaron Brien:

Let's do this.

Shandin Pete:

Okay. Just curious. Yeah. You kind of seem like you're in a mood.

Aaron Brien:

Oh, dude, my job man. Bad day. Uh, when when don't i Hold on? I'm getting a call

Shandin Pete:

the hotel telephone.

Aaron Brien:

Hello? Is this 1997

Shandin Pete:

coming to the party that a motor in.

Aaron Brien:

It's like it's supposed to be a Best Western but I think it was kind of one of the more like travel lodges or whatever they used to be. It's like a motel dude. So I'm in miles. Montana. Miles says Mark last night. Yeah, I was in Bismarck. Yesterday. I was in Bismarck all day. Yeah. So Bismarck do a site visit we go and look at some stone features that I'm working on. We work on this big project called North plains connector, which is like a power company grid united. So they're doing all this pre permanent team survey work where we're doing archaeology survey My guys are. There's like several tribes. We call them tribal cultural specialists. So they find cool stuff. US tipples go out. We look at the cool stuff. Yeah, so that's what I was doing today. And miles in Bismarck and then left Bismarck about two o'clock stopped dead. Theodore Roosevelt National Park and had a quick meeting with their cultural resource specialists. And then left there got to mile city which will be doing site visit tomorrow. And then yeah, man, I mean, I'm just tired it was today I had to like I had to pull up my big boy panties and go outside and just didn't like it.

Shandin Pete:

That's quite the agenda.

Aaron Brien:

Dude, like it's like it's typical life. Yeah, like it's crazy, man. It's not realistic way of living. It's not even a realistic way of culture.

Shandin Pete:

It's not weird. That's all gone it's not sustainable. It's not sustainable living.

Aaron Brien:

No, no there's a high rate of burnout high rate of burnout

Shandin Pete:

yeah

Aaron Brien:

well, opioid addiction

Shandin Pete:

right up there with opioid addiction

Aaron Brien:

this is this is this is typical life look at this I bought a Mountain Dew and melatonin What does

Shandin Pete:

just put a melatonin in that Mountain Dew bottle what's gonna happen well it's weird I don't know man.

Aaron Brien:

Oh no, let's get rolling

Shandin Pete:

oh yeah all right. We got Brian we hear he's rejoining us the rare while we've had one No I think two returning guests right I think I think we had Mike back twice and maybe John back twice.

Aaron Brien:

What didn't John he was like part of a group right?

Shandin Pete:

This was like episode or two or three maybe we're doing some social media action you're gonna social media Okay, let me um, man I come across this song. I want you to listen to this first though first. So we're gonna let's see share sound Yeah. Gotcha. Listen to the song. We're all going to take a lead. Good and Brian. You didn't know.

Aaron Brien:

I don't want to do this. I'm just

Shandin Pete:

I'm just kidding. Yeah, winded up, pinch the throat. If you pinch the throat and just scream for about one to two seconds. And if you're singing contemporary, where people will pick you up and that's a hot lead man. Listen to this, man. This is a good song.

Aaron Brien:

It's a contempt tune.

Shandin Pete:

No, no, I wish a Noah we still got to do that episode that way. We preview some contempt history I don't think we're quite the authorities on that or anything for that matter but now let's come yeah we can hear it is the source of this okay

Aaron Brien:

pretty awesome

Shandin Pete:

exam comes from learn it you can tell here we lose you good

Aaron Brien:

can you hear me?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah I can hear you that's cool tune Can you hear us?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah like oh my Can you hear me? Yeah oh yeah yeah interesting all right

Shandin Pete:

yeah nice little tune there tell they're just going over it somebody in the middle is Ribbit or something part again hey that's pretty good play that again yeah here goes comes to your company what do they say

Aaron Brien:

I don't know what that is

Shandin Pete:

okay Okay one more time

Bryan Dupuis:

nickname and maybe they forgot what it is

Aaron Brien:

I don't know I don't know

Shandin Pete:

okay, that's enough I don't know if that's entertaining.

Aaron Brien:

I don't know what he says. I don't know, don't know where that recordings from.

Shandin Pete:

I don't know. This is from those reel to reels. You know.

Aaron Brien:

To me, it kind of has like Nez Perce Colville human Tila can hold on to that, you know, like Yeah, maybe? Yeah, I don't know.

Shandin Pete:

I think it's, I think it's the same. Well, it's from it's from the same reel to reel and I've been playing these tunes from so I think the last episode I played that that owl dance is owl dance tune you know, it's from that same. I think it's that same group, but it's the other side of the real you know, ever Ribbit place

Aaron Brien:

for

Shandin Pete:

good, good. Yeah, well, anyway, we've got Brian to pull you back in. He's got something to say. Now. I'm going to preface this with with the Bit of a congratulations to Brian. He finished he finished his law degree man. That is awesome. That is so awesome man. This guy, this guy if you see him he's still the guy that hangs out at the gas station with the half drink and pop leaning against the seeds he's still he's still just just a regular dude, man. And he put it in his mind to get a large degree and he did it, man.

Aaron Brien:

But one thing you can do Brian is say you're a regular dude, because guys who are regular dudes don't have to see that. Hey, I'm just a regular Joe. Yeah, that's probably not.

Shandin Pete:

You're not Yeah, let's Yeah.

Bryan Dupuis:

It's kind of wondering. I was like, I wonder if I even look like a law student Sansom like donors walk through the hallway and really looking at me like, like, Oh, don't worry during the summer the building's open to the public. Go here like I just graduated. I was just say, careful, shamed out. Suit and tie our time or so.

Shandin Pete:

I Excuse me, are you looking for free legal help?

Bryan Dupuis:

Yeah. Don't cut it anymore.

Aaron Brien:

You look like the guy on the other side of the law. That's cool, man. I like you. I like you when regular people do cool shit, you know?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. So big, big congratulations to you, man. And this the Indian law episode is overdue. It's gonna go the way it's gonna go. Okay. Is that what's going down right now? This is this is the Indian law episode. We're gonna go through everything. Indian law. Pull up your textbook. Actually, it's a packet, pull out packet be

Aaron Brien:

a reading, if you will,

Shandin Pete:

reader. What's that?

Bryan Dupuis:

All the guys download your PDFs before the episode?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, did you download and read the 60 page?

Aaron Brien:

This is the first time our guests were I guess sent us a reader Did you Brian? Brian, let me ask you this. Let me get us back on Chuck is Shawn. I know. Okay, what is Was there a particular focus in your law degree that you chose? Or, Hey, first, where did you go to law school.

Bryan Dupuis:

So I went to university, Alexander blue, the third school of Locke University of Montana. Um, see, I went I went to Salish Kootenai College and studied with Sean dean here. I did hydrology, and I kind of political aspirations, maybe go a legislator out. But we had to do a lot of law classes on that degree track, like environmental law, water law, NEPA in federal Indian policy. So I kind of had that interest in continuing education. So when I went to law school, I was more geared for environmental law. But I realized my passion was an Indian law. You know, they were the cases that just really infuriated me and, and made me like, you know, want to make a counter argument or, you know, inside, but environmental law does overlap a lot with Indian law. So I, you know, I still get the kind of use that knowledge and expertise as well. But yeah, I definitely my passion is an Indian law. I took every Indian law class, I could accept it quick because it conflicted with one of my other classes. So I was feeling when I didn't get to take was there. Mm

Aaron Brien:

hmm. So you kind of had a focus in Indian law at an environmental law or no?

Bryan Dupuis:

Yeah, I did some environmental law classes.

Aaron Brien:

what's your what's your plan? Do you have a plan? Or is this still fresh?

Bryan Dupuis:

Yeah, I just kind of keep my options open. There's about four opportunities at the tribe. I could kind of go like I wanted to go criminal or, like in house counsel, like kind of maybe for the exec team or, or, or even energy keepers, I think, was looking maybe to get another lawyer on board and go work for the dam. Mm hmm.

Shandin Pete:

Trying to stay local.

Bryan Dupuis:

Yeah, I definitely want to stay in Missoula if I can. But it's really competitive. Since this has the only law school in the state here in Missoula. A lot of people don't want to leave after they graduate.

Shandin Pete:

Right. Right, right. Well, You got plenty of opportunity? I think? I don't know. I never did like that word or that phrase, you know, is Oh, you got a lot opportunity. But I don't. I don't know if that's necessarily true for Indian dudes, you know? We don't I think

Aaron Brien:

it's it's it's just the same man. Yeah, it don't apply to us, I think. I mean, there is opportunity, but our opportunities are very different. Like, yeah, the average Indian news opportunities are not what everybody else is, even with a law degree. Yeah. Yeah, you know, you got to, it's what we're all taught, you know, you have to work twice as hard to do this kind of work. To prove your point just to prove mediocrity, you know,

Bryan Dupuis:

I never really applied for a lot of internships, and I kind of just figured my best opportunity to get employed would be through a tribe or through my tribe. And so I didn't even look at a lot of those. Just regular internship opportunities through school. Yeah, I would maybe be disadvantaged, but a lot of native students come in and kind of dig themselves a hole through those doctrinal those beginning courses. And so they're trying to figure out why that is, and, and maybe ways to combat it. And I know, it's like, I was really able to connect through a lot of the principles of law through Indian law, just because I lived it on the reservation. I'm like, oh, that's why we have lease slots. Oh, that's why lands in trust. Like things start clicking and making more sense of why things are the way they are back home.

Shandin Pete:

Some of that case law you're reading probably head auntie, your uncle or grandpa. That's cool, man. So did you have a follow up Aaron? Or are you done with your line of questioning?

Aaron Brien:

I'm just trying to get our witness leave China. Time to get our first time listeners. It's a no. All right. Oh, I'll give him the basics. I'm given given them the basics, because we just we have a tendency to just get rolling. And then people are like, Who the hell are they talking to? Which is part of our charm. Oh, eight for the record. Yeah, Brian, you didn't know this. This is one of the sidebar conversations, but I've never listened to our podcasts until yesterday. The day before yesterday. First time, man. First time I ever listened to my podcast. So then today, I listen to another episode. And I'm gonna say man, uh, Brian, I don't know if you listen, but it's not bad.

Bryan Dupuis:

I actually enjoy how they actually use that one, the last episode I was on as an example for other classes, or I'll throw it up there when we talked about some international law concepts. And I'm like, oh, man, like, was better worded or, you know, more versed on like legal concepts going in and showing this to other law students. So it sounds good. A lot of people gave me a lot of positive feedback on it. That's awesome. And then yeah, it wasn't. So it's too early to mention that. Oh, man, that one about this novel. laugh about it.

Shandin Pete:

Cool. Well, I'm glad people are listening. I'm glad Aaron finally listening. I'll ask him, you know, because I put a lot of hard work into editing news. You know, it's a lot a lot of nights and oftentimes I feel unappreciated. Despite the accolades that Aaron tries to give me, you know, deep down I feel I feel bad for the imbalance. That don't feel bad at all. No, but I'm glad he listened

Aaron Brien:

neither by neither. Nor do

Shandin Pete:

I friend nor doing awesome yeah, feeling awesome. You do all that? No. Yeah. No, you're good. That's good. It's good. Anyway. So Brian comes here on round two is, apparently he's going to try to redeem himself because he didn't do his homework last time and we shot him some hard questions. And we challenged his thought his thoughts on it but he's come prepared now. With a juris doctorate. Is that what it's what it is juris doctorate, so there's, we can call a doctor. We can call you Dr. DE Puia. You got a street name? What's your street name? United. United. What's your street

Bryan Dupuis:

one of them was hubcap. Albert Kaya and couldn't that.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, I know. I know what you mean.

Bryan Dupuis:

Cat and then Dyson hubcap run it to Eagle called me hubcap.

Shandin Pete:

I know I know what it is. You're probably one of the coolest names. That is. hubcap, but I got the one I got it. Doc Doctor dirty belly. Oh. Dirty. Dirty belly. That was the nickname given to Brian by the late Bronson McDonald Why did he call you to dirty belly?

Bryan Dupuis:

I can't remember if he said look like Charles Bronson. Or, or what was it last time? I was at Dairy Queen. It was like dirty belly. That Bronson I've turned around. I hadn't heard that name and yours. Remember why? Well because I wear that that necklace and sometimes I brush up against stuff and I always have like little dust spot on my shirt. Always dirty and he started calling me dirty belly. That's what it was.

Aaron Brien:

Man Bronson himself wasn't shorter. No nicknames. Brian Donna. Brandon. Brown Adamovich. Charles Bronson was one brown stain. Antonio. We had we had names for him, man, like all over is crazy. You know, it's funny. Fun fact about the late Bronson McDonald that you get since you brought him up. I always enjoy talking about it. Yeah, he used to live with me. He's 16 years old. He lived with me. 1516 years old, the guy could whip out a friggin round dance. The saddest round dance song you've ever heard is composed beautifully. Never had a girlfriend gets a girlfriend no longer can make love songs. It just was like Branson. You're such a wordsmith, a poet. Free, free love, and then fell in love and Your songs are shit and

Shandin Pete:

used it up. Used it up. Yeah. Let me lay down Dr. Dirty belly is. Here he's got he's got something to tell us. Now. One, I want to hear it because this is going to kick us off. Because we're ready. We've become the student. But the student always has these odd questions. So we're gonna, let's see what you got, man. What do you got? Yeah, I

Bryan Dupuis:

want to maybe drive a fun discussion about oh, hey, I know he's in the same sentence. But you know, they poke holes in our just Supreme Court decisions and some of the recent ones because just Yeah, man. I mean, they really flip flop. And I think they're, you know, there's a lot that could be unpacked there. Right.

Shandin Pete:

Right. Well, yeah, that's,

Aaron Brien:

I feel a bit ambushed.

Shandin Pete:

Feeling attacked? Like unprepared.

Aaron Brien:

Well, I think you'd have to draw a scenario for us or give us some talking point. You're leading the course today. Yeah. Tell us what you want to talk about. Because hey, if there's anything I can do, man, I keep pushing my way through anything. Bring

Bryan Dupuis:

Good Rosco man. Yeah. Imposter Syndrome you fake it till you make it yeah

Shandin Pete:

tipos getting it down jump in law school

Bryan Dupuis:

know is a kind of a there's this discussion sometimes we have in class where it's Supreme Courts trying to kind of figure out something with the tribe and they're always like, well is this Indians do an Indian things? Now a lot of times everyone in the class looks at me being like the only Indian students wanting to be two of us and so I could look the other guy hate No, but they always want an honest answer like we're supposed to just be the all keepers of all this knowledge and speak for all tribes and yeah, you know, he just always just be like, Well, duh, obviously you guys don't wear a belt buckle shoes and you know, shoot black powder rifles anymore like you guys are able to evolve the law was able to evolve I think Indians should be able to evolve and but it's kind of weird like the courts always like Man, this Indians do an Indian things. What are those, you know, look like and did they do this traditionally? And thankfully for stick game, we kind of can gamble and have casinos, you know, but it's like just Just some of their, their logic man, it's just difficult. So always always, uh, you know, any opportunity I can to maybe poke fun at the highest court? You know, I maybe I'll take it take the opportunity, but

Shandin Pete:

Well, I'm curious about this, this idea of tradition? Well, I mean, it sounds like the Think of tradition as in some era, right? Is it? Is it? I mean, is it legally defined? Is tradition legally defined? My first question,

Bryan Dupuis:

Professor, because like they had the Indian Indian crimes courts. Yeah. Something like that is like an 18 or the basically outlawed being Indian, you couldn't sing or dance and right, and a lot of our rituals, and then now, they tried to be like, Oh, is this Indians do an Indian things? I'm like, well, through federal policy and assimilation tactics, they, they wanted us to fold in this society. And it might be any difference, but then they almost like use that when they're looking at cases like, Well, is there a difference? And it's like, why? I think you guys tried to, you know, determine that through their policies. And so it just kind of frustrates me because I, I know, there's still a connection there. And, and, you know, people are still able to practice their culture. But you know, it's just, and you're more limited fashion than we did you know, 150 years ago or something, but

Shandin Pete:

Right. But it has the court ever legally defined. What a Native American tradition is not like

Bryan Dupuis:

that I've seen like, because they had that Tahitian case up in Alaska. That's pretty bad. It's a really bad and like, like, well, this, you know, they don't live in teepees. They don't, buffalo, these aren't Indians. And so it's like, kind of why they don't have reservations up there. And they're more like corporations, which may have worked out in their favor in the long run, but it's like, he's, they're Alaskan Natives. You know, instead buffalo, or hunting waters and said, TPS, they live in an igloo. But I mean, they're still kind of doing similar things. And so I remember I just was really frustrated with the court. And they're, they're analogies. And so I just, you know, I just, they tend to just kind of overlook tradition, or, or the value or anything like that. of heritage, oral oral history, oral tradition, you know, they don't really value that in the legal system. So it was definitely not something that worked in our favor. Right.

Shandin Pete:

Well, that's kind of the work that you do. Aaron, right. Is you lean on past tradition to uphold present law. Is that right? Is that kind of what Jebel historic preservation is all about?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, I mean, our job is to enforce federal law, the archaeological Resource Protection Act, the National Historic Preservation Act. Antiquities Act, yeah, our job, that's our job. And and, like, I guess, our job is to build a case for certain portion portions of that law. The biggest thing is the National Register of Historic Places has these designations to call criteria, right. And it's, it's all under the National Historic Preservation Act. And our job is to use those criteria for any eligible properties. So it's historic sites, and it's theirs. If it meets any of them criteria, it's supposed to give us certain protections for that site, but really doesn't because it's, it's a law that doesn't have a lot of teeth. It's really easy to challenge. That's kind of the nature of our job.

Shandin Pete:

But in all that, all that you just said, is there any legal definition of what a Native American tradition ought to be? Or who defines that? Yeah, heritage,

Aaron Brien:

heritage, just as any, any ritual custom that is taught through inculturation. So there's, there's a loose definition of what culture is and which Heritage's and

Shandin Pete:

is it bound by by a certain time period or, or a length of practice?

Bryan Dupuis:

Maybe it's more like the tribes definition, isn't it? Like what the tribe defines? In some

Aaron Brien:

cases? Yeah, a tribe can define what that is, but under under certain federal laws, there's you know, that terms use section or whatever there's, there's there's terms used in there. And the red room is heritage culture, which is defined again, you can just Google it, give it a Google even Bing Bing for us all Yes. Googlers Yeah. Who

Shandin Pete:

are we asked Jeeves? Remember asked G. Yeah. So we're

Aaron Brien:

asked Jeeves? Do I Do I remember asked James. So what we do when we actually do is there's a section of the National Historic Preservation Act, okay? That that takes into consideration. Its impacted cultural resources on tribes, and that's called Section 10601. Our job is to do what what's known as Section 106 consultation, where I was kind of getting that is consultation is the time to make those definitions. And that's when it's taken to the county in the potential impact of Cultural Resources. That's what it says in the area of potential effect. It also kind of functions under NEPA. So NEPA does it just has to take into account the cultural environment, but it doesn't have like a section for cultural environment. It defaults to, to the to the National Historic Preservation Act, so work heavily in NEPA and heavily in NHPA

Shandin Pete:

a lot of acronyms

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, dude, and like you're asking me this and this week, dude, like? Like, honestly, God just spent the day with four other tipples, dude,

Shandin Pete:

well, this is the thing, man. I know you don't want to talk about it. But I'm curious. This is because Brian, because Brian saying that the Supreme Court of the United States of America has this. This the wrong sort of idea about Native tradition and or culture, and that it's sort of stuck in the past? Man, that's what I think that's what I got. Was that right? Brian? Yep. Okay. And then you're saying, well, through this, all these acronyms you just threw at me? And I don't know what

Aaron Brien:

these aren't. These aren't considered laws, native federal Indian laws, these are just federal laws that impact tribes, right? Oh, believe it or not, some of the most powerful cases we've been able to fight in the Supreme Court have been through cultural resource law. Yes, don't pipeline was stopped, right, because of cultural resource law, the whole dapples thing, right, that all had to do with a misunderstanding and consultation under Section 106. So like some of these big landmark cases that we have today, have a direct connection to cultural resources, our Native American Graves Protection, and repatriation protection, it's really easy. And I'll let Brian talk. It's really easy to think of federal Indian law as those you know that of course, we know John Marshall and and Marshall Trilogy is the foundation for federal Indian law. But we also don't ever take into the account the impacts of the European crown on that those kinds of decisions prior to creating an environment for that kind of thing to live to counter to what like the royal proclamation said right, so the royal proclamation and a lot of ways protected tribes. And they called the Ohio River Valley, Indian Indian reserve. So now, when, when the overthrowing of the British government or the crown, it's the culture of the American people to to to rebel against the policies, and the proclamations of the crown. So I often wonder if those cases would have been the same had that not happened? Because it's not it's not the punk rock thing to do. Right? You want to rebel against the Crown? The Crown says don't go west of the of the Ohio River Valley as that is deemed Indian land. Oh, I get it. You know what I mean? Once Once those court cases once once the US defeats the crown. Now it's, it's the trend of the day to, to rid themselves of those old policies represent the crown. So I wonder, my question, I guess my thought is that had that proclamation not been made with the expansion West? I know what would have happened, what would have happened wouldn't have happened in the same way because not only was it happening military wise, it was happening. Cultural wise, it was also happening in the courts. So it's like a three pronged approach to the expansion. Wes, it was very I I think it would be different but the legal scholar,

Shandin Pete:

the Aaron Brin trilogy is over let's okay. Yeah, let's weigh in on this Brian.

Bryan Dupuis:

Yeah, them in the row Proclamation was a big reason for the Revolutionary War. Wait, don't

Shandin Pete:

wait now the row proclamation. Sorry, I'm sorry, Royal

Bryan Dupuis:

inflammation. Yeah. Were they established the line? I believe it the Appalachians and they said we go last year so subject to the Indians, which kind of applied our sovereignty and our authority to regulate people that entered our territories. And then, like John Quincy Adams, like George Washington were land speculators and going over trading with these tribes and getting large swaths of land. And so, you know, they kind of felt like it was their right to do that. So and they name was crazy, the Boston Tea Party, they dressed up like Indians to kind of throw it in the face of the crown. And but, you know, John Marshall really had to carefully navigate that with the Marshall Trilogy Acts was kind of same thing with Johnson V. McIntosh. So they're still going less to the, you know, where they weren't supposed to, and buying land from tribes. And, and so John Marshall, it was kind of a constitutional crisis, because he needed the states to buy in, you know, to the constitutional bargain for, you know, the experiment of America to work. But he also needed to, like, navigate these rights that the tribes had. And so it's kind of a lot of similar things that were going on with the crown, and land speculators with the royal proclamation with Johnson V. McIntosh. And the government was really poor after the Revolutionary War. So they're rewarding war veterans with land. And they just happen to suppose we have a controversy where land that was bought from a tribe overlapped with land that was given to a veteran, and later on determined land didn't overlap, but they still wanted to kind of figure out the issue. So Marshall really had to carefully navigate that. So they, that's when he kind of came up with the term use of factory rights. Like we had a right to occupy the land. And so he kind of was like, Oh, well, you know, they don't own land, like European counterparts, you know, to leave it in their hands. It'd be like a wilderness basically, is what he's saying, which is kind of kind of weird today when you think about conservation. So but that's a whole nother conversation. But yeah. So it's just, you know, kind of makes me wonder if things really would have been different because it seemed like wow, there's similar arguments between land speculators are trying to expand their wealth and move west and then they're trying to deal with these tribes that obviously live there and and how do they kind of hopefully go about that? Yeah. Boy, I

Aaron Brien:

thought was that that's the Wabash Land Company. Right.

Bryan Dupuis:

So that sounds familiar. Yeah. Yeah, actually was like a field on site together. They were like a couple of different land speculators, but there was like a big one that was buying up a lot of land.

Aaron Brien:

Johnson. He represented he. I can't remember man, it's been so long. He he either will see the president of the Wabash Land Company, or Macintosh.

Bryan Dupuis:

Yeah. Specifics now. Yeah. With Mr. Cover the holding kind of the outcomes of that.

Aaron Brien:

Are you looking at Chandi?

Bryan Dupuis:

Yeah. That was like the, the problem I always had is like, you know, they, they basically said, we had a right to occupy land, even though we entered treaties is like nation, the nation, right? And so we're supposed to be like, equivalent nation was sovereign rights. And then, you know, they're like, Oh, you just occupied the land and then we get these reservations. And they allot it and they're like, Well, you don't really know how to pay taxes or keep your land so we're gonna hold it in trust for you and so it's like all the time we've never owned our own land and it's like I It's just frustrating here

Aaron Brien:

every day wait, what? Pat my belly and rub my head

Shandin Pete:

man, I didn't know what just happened in this episode. I didn't know what decks because you're talking about at all. One thing now what do you mean I don't know you guys talking about Wabash Land Company. What was it? What did you say? What's this weird word of you said Brian. It's a weird word.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, pretty perfunctory.

Bryan Dupuis:

prefilling stuff rectory Yeah, us Are you see? Try

Shandin Pete:

in your use of fucktard Yeah. Just to keep this podcast clean. It's just gonna be saying those words here. What are they? Yeah, no, I want I want to try to keep up but man I I kind of got lost a little bit.

Bryan Dupuis:

Oh my bad. Yeah, I just No, no. Straight. There's Renton.

Shandin Pete:

I know both of you. Were going off on. Aaron was spilling all these acronyms and you're talking about Wabash and I don't know what man, I'm lost. I'm lost. So this is the deal, though this is what I get out of it. This is what I heard is that, and I've said this before a number of times is that our, our legal system, or legal systems of different tribes across the, across the North American continent, were essentially subjugated and placed into a foreign legal structure. Right? Let me say it yourself. You said this about the idea of land ownership, right? So these guys come in with this idea of what land ownership ought to be. And it's not matching the practice and custom of tribes and how they're dealing with the land, which apparently they think is in holdings of the tribes in North America. And then what Aaron is essentially saying is that because of this royal proclamation, and because of the demeanor of the colonists and the east, and there is what would you call it a proclivity to rebel? Is that even the right word? Prochnow.

Aaron Brien:

I didn't, I didn't say proclivity. I just said, I wasn't saying anything legal,

Shandin Pete:

whatever. No, no, I'm saying proclivity. Okay. You go.

Aaron Brien:

I was saying the culture of the time was to rebel against anything that was English. Yeah. Policies, and it was the policies of the Royal of the crown. The Royal Proclamation was a policy from the crown. So all I was saying is, I wonder if it would have changed things. Yeah, proclamation wasn't there. Because now anything that involves expansion into that the Ohio River Land, base and all that, that Valley, it's now it's like, in the culture of the day was like, well, that's where we weren't supposed to go. We're not going to be told we're not going to follow those policies of the crowd. To me, I think it has an impact that people don't talk about. Yeah. So in the crown wasn't protecting tribes what they were doing, it was economically not viable to keep sending people over there. So they said, Hey, man, you guys quit going over there. So they do this Majan airy line Saint don't go over there. Wow. Within what, eight years, the Revolutionary War starts.

Shandin Pete:

Okay. Okay, because that's not Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

1763 Sure, Mt. 65. Something like that. Yeah, royal proclamation. John. Got to know this stuff.

Shandin Pete:

I don't know. I mean, I'm not I'm not I'm not hung up on the dates or anything. I'm hung up on

Aaron Brien:

case dates due dates.

Shandin Pete:

Okay, so I'm gonna get hung up on a date.

Aaron Brien:

Thomas Jefferson, who I believe was the either the President or the Vice President of the Ohio River Land Company. Okay, because either him or George Washington. I don't know.

Shandin Pete:

1763

Aaron Brien:

They were they they were they were told they can't expand west of the Royal Commission. That's all the land they own. That's all the Ohio Land Company. Okay, you're telling me there's no coincidence within a couple of years. The Revolutionary War starts. Come Yeah, man. Yeah, ma Shawn Dean. That Kool Aid.

Shandin Pete:

I'm not No, I'm not arguing against it. I'm just trying to summarize in layman's term, the minus the word proclivity, which has this gender be jokey.

Aaron Brien:

Are you saying Indians can't use that word? That would you say me

Shandin Pete:

now back off you know what I like is when like when a new word comes out, in like a rap song. And then that then you hear it on every rap song? Like remember, remember? prerogative, prerogative was a word that came out oh my

Aaron Brien:

god. You just showed your age. You said prerogative and then you refer to it as a rap song listen to rap, just call it Oh, you listen to that song. Hey, you've been listening to that rap like you don't listen to you don't listen to that high noon and go hey, have you listened to high Nunes new power song? Do we know we know that part of it?

Shandin Pete:

Is that new old style song? That new? New original style song?

Aaron Brien:

Killing me. You're killing me.

Shandin Pete:

On the bottom of knowledge of things because none of these things hardly Okay.

Aaron Brien:

Oh, neither do I need to do it? Well,

Shandin Pete:

like you did. So

Aaron Brien:

I say, Brian, when we started, I said, I'm gonna boost my way through this

Shandin Pete:

bar, man you are. So I'm trying to I'm trying to untangle the BS here. So you're saying, and I believe in man, you know, that idea that's a sort of a human sort of a human construct to do the thing that somebody's telling you not to do, at least for adolescents, at least for adolescents, they're gonna rebel. So I can see that kind of fanning the flames of rebellion and, and then Pair that with what Brian was saying about this. Well, I don't know if you're saying that. But what I was saying, summarizing about this legal tradition getting placed upon the tribes, you know, it's like the idea, you know, you show up and say, well, there's nobody here, let's, let's start cutting these trees down and build a nice little plantation. Nobody here. There's no fence. I guess nobody's using it. Right? Yeah, yeah. So this is what I want to know. Okay, keep going. Okay, this is what I want to know. Okay. So what I want to know, is how does that translate over into the current? The current understanding, understandings and decisions made by the Supreme Court? What does is I mean, this is still

Bryan Dupuis:

interesting, because there's this concept like race judicata, like once they decided, it's already decided. So if a case kind of has the same facts, you're not really supposed to kind of rehash it. And those kind of looking for fairness and the legal system like, Okay, if we wrote this way, we got to kind of be like that for everybody. So part of the Marshall Trilogy works to be Georgia, they said state law shall have no effect in Indian country. And, and it's been like that for 150 years. But then recently, they have Castro Huerta come out last year, from the Supreme Court, and we're like, wow, things have changed since werster. There's really no legal argument for it. But now states do have legal authority in Indian country. And and so it just, is that the

Shandin Pete:

one which which was which court cases that you're talking about?

Bryan Dupuis:

Oklahoma, I believe, okay. Yeah. And so I think it will add some pretty, pretty bad facts. I think it was like abuse of a child, maybe maybe sexual abuse, I can't remember. But this guy was getting charged through state board. And they're trying to say that the feds should have jurisdiction through the Major Crimes Act. But a lot, the other side is like, oh, no, they're gonna let these you know, criminals out free. And in the street, it was like, No, it wasn't that's no jurisdiction, which which prison should he go to federal or state? Supreme Court, typically, states have no authority in Indian country. So it should have either been the tribes or Feds or both should have had jurisdiction. But Castro word that came out last year, they basically overturned werster part of the Marshall Trilogy, that they now states now do have authority in Indian Country over criminal matters. So it was as a non Indian on Indian crime. So as a non Indian perpetrator, committing assault on an Indian child. And so typically, how the legal system was traditionally set up the feds, or the tribe would have jurisdiction or both in because there's no double jeopardy because they're separate sovereigns, right. But then the state prosecuted the guy. And so they're like, Hey, wait, now states, the state law has no effect in Indian country. And so that's kind of the whole question. And so now, they basically overturned it. And there's no legal rationale, you know, and they just kind of basically say, things have changed since we're stirring. It's like, did all these legal principles from you know, like, we're still politically distinct? Nations, you know, we're, yeah, so I mean, it's just, I don't know. I'm not sure if that's exactly where your question was gone. But it seemed like the court like, changed its mind flip flopped, and and it just kind of was frustrating. And they

Shandin Pete:

didn't give no clarification on the statement you said about, well, things have changed. They didn't give a legal

Bryan Dupuis:

now, they basically just said things aren't as they were back, you know, and obviously, like, yeah, that was 1850s. You know, a lot of things are, are different, but Right. Right. It's just that's not really how the law is supposed to work. You know, like, it's not like, oh, things changed. You're gonna change your mind now. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

Well, Ah, this is a lot to consume. And so then back to I. Okay, so if the Supreme Court can say, well, things have changed, then as far as tribal law, the same holds true right tribal law. Like, like what Aaron was saying that as far as tradition is concerned, the tribes can define what is or isn't tradition. That is that, is that kind of what you said there? Aaron, I caught a little

Aaron Brien:

glimpse of that. I was saying within consultation, yeah, yeah, we have we, we have some authority on that. The problem is, is there's no federal law that gives us force or any of anything, you know, so right. It's all within the constraints of whatever that is. So in in, in Section 106, competent consultation, we do have quite a bit of authority if the if we catch if the project is consulted, right. But that's not always the case, though. And the problem with that is we don't, there's no, there's a hard way to challenge it, because the law of the law states is to make a good faith effort. But federal agency has to make a good faith effort that's really hard to take to court and be like, hey, they didn't do that. Well.

Shandin Pete:

They didn't bring doughnuts on, ya know, that effort yourself.

Bryan Dupuis:

A lot of things in law are like that, because they always say, Well, if it's black and white, there wouldn't be a controversy and it would get settled before it even went to trial or anything. And so it's a lot of gray areas, and it's who can make the most compelling argument. It's, like job security for lawyers. But, you know, I sometimes it's kind of a frustrating because, you know, that's like capitalism, you know, people with the most money can kind of maybe in a sense by verdicts or sway the court, you know, by being able to hire the better attorney. Hmm.

Shandin Pete:

Very interesting. Well, so, yeah, well, I guess it's like what you said consultation. It's just consultation, right.

Bryan Dupuis:

I mean, yeah, that consent, what consultation consultation,

Shandin Pete:

so sort of, like, sort of like sort of like asking the death row, inmate what he wants for his last meal, right. You're gonna die anyway, but we're gonna let you show to choose what you want to eat. You know, before you die, do you?

Aaron Brien:

Do you want to sauce very steak?

Shandin Pete:

whole platter of TV dinner sells berries. Which is pretty tasty, by the way. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

longtime listener sidetrack here on food for a second one second. Yeah, you ever notice Have you ever seen like people eat pork chops? No, I haven't. Dude, I know. I have a theory. It's like only an Indian thing. That eat pork. I don't Yeah, I don't see why people eat pork chops. I only ever see Indian people buy pork chops or eat pork chops. What do name one white person you know that eats pork chops.

Shandin Pete:

Well? Yeah, I can't I can't Why. How many Indian homes

Aaron Brien:

have you been in in your whole life on any res pork chops for either serve the night before and or that night? That tells me it's happened pretty regularly. Right?

Shandin Pete:

I had a menudo I had a bullet Menudo in which a full porkchop was dished with. Don't my new Legos cooked with like the full porkchop was in dama nudo. Yeah, okay. i Okay. All right. I'm just saying

Aaron Brien:

like it's weird dude. And and I don't know if this is on every request but I've seen pork chops served with applesauce can come? If people can comment or something or email I want to know where what are the recipes that are happening not because I've seen it. Pretty regular man pork chops and applesauce. I'm telling you man pork chops. It's I don't ever see I never want to like a white person's house and your kids are all sitting at the table eating pork chops. Dude, I've never seen it. Okay,

Bryan Dupuis:

Supreme Court decisions man pork chops and applesauce just don't make sense. It doesn't make sense

Aaron Brien:

but Brian, have you seen it and seen home of non Indian people eating pork chops?

Bryan Dupuis:

No. I seen a big old farmer guy coming through rich lines once impulse on order pork chop sandwich.

Aaron Brien:

I mean, that counts. I think we'll count that ah, Shandy. Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

I mean the art to

Aaron Brien:

sandwich those all different animals too.

Shandin Pete:

Well yeah because when you eat it on a plate that requires some different methods

Aaron Brien:

to consume shot I could see Shawn Dean wants to get back on track no I don't I think I think the pork chop triggered something in him agency road something happened something happened with pork chicken bake even GOD

Shandin Pete:

OH MAN Yeah shake and bake oh yeah James the game dude just the thing about the shaken bake though that I always has had a complaint about is I mean he took you take all this time the shake the pork chop or and or chicken noodle baggie and on you you shake it up and put it on the whatever the cooking pen and you cook it up and then you when you take it out you pick it up or run a fork across it it just all falls off. Like it didn't stay put you know right? You have that experience. Oh yeah, yeah, it just falls off and then you know he's kidding.

Aaron Brien:

Oh, dude, but But you were really kid and all the shakin all the shaking falls off. Yeah, but dude, you eat your food. And then you do that swipe?

Shandin Pete:

Or it's gonna say Oh, boy. Yeah, you get a full blast of the bake. You got to shake the bake

Aaron Brien:

with the ice cold glass of orange Kool Aid boy of heaven on earth.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Orange cooler. I prefer the green. Yeah, orange is orange. We'll do the grape grape.

Aaron Brien:

Sleeping on Orange dude. Recently, I heard somebody say red kool aid was their favorite non red. Who are you?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, I mean, both flavors of Red was not good. strawberry or cherry. Ah, yeah, you know, you know someone mix the good bad. Well, what Wait, there was those there's those there was those ones who are always insist on making the Kool Aid with a warm water. So the so the sugar would melt faster. And

Aaron Brien:

that's a chemist though.

Shandin Pete:

So you gotta wait three hours for in the fridge and

Aaron Brien:

then well, that's, you know, that's a native that's thinking long term and they're sitting there saying you know what, Cooley drinking is a marathon. It's not a sprint. You know? Brian, what's your favorite Kool Aid color, man?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, what you got? Right blue.

Bryan Dupuis:

I like that Tropical Punch or too sharp, sharp,

Shandin Pete:

very sharp, blueberry, or

Aaron Brien:

I'm a bit I'm shocked that you would say that. But you know, that's I respect it. I'm a bit traditional. I'm a bit Orthodox and it's orange kool aid for me, man. I gotta stay with the basic format. Basic form and

Shandin Pete:

yeah, I'd like to read

Aaron Brien:

Oh, Mr. Red. No, dude. No,

Shandin Pete:

no, that's awful. Yeah, tastes like poison or some.

Aaron Brien:

What about what about the Kool Aid that don't have enough sugar garbage? Yeah, there's no level of waiting 10 years old in the anticipation one when they come out with a pitcher and they're gonna do the refills and you're like, Oh, snap. We're getting some Kool Aid and take a blast. Take a splash and it's underwhelming Yeah, yeah, go from elated to like, this is dogshit

Shandin Pete:

you knew when it was well sweetened and made well because there was like a little bit of foam on the top, you know, like a little bit.

Aaron Brien:

Dude, you knew you were gonna buzz there you were he was milky he was gonna rip down he was like, Oh, my muscles are gonna hurt.

Shandin Pete:

Let's go walk around. He was gonna walk around man. Okay. Anyway, I don't know if this is gonna Wow, your, your podcast. We're still going. I'm still going. People don't

Aaron Brien:

listen to our podcasts. I'm learning this after listening. They don't listen to it for the intellectual conversation. They look for it for the transition where the only people who can go from talking about federal on the lotto cool Eat. We're the only people mad. Nobody's getting it. Nobody's getting anywhere else. We got a monopoly on transitions.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, the hard turns the hard turns. Yeah. Well, that's good man. That's life. Okay.

Aaron Brien:

That's the skip Brian back involved. Let's

Shandin Pete:

settle back in. Open back your real

Aaron Brien:

question. Simple question, man. How are you? How do you, Brian define sovereignty? Tribal sovereignty? Let's hear it. Yeah.

Bryan Dupuis:

To me, it's the ability to govern your people in your land, and in govern your resources. And so it's just just full autonomy to just yeah, basically make all decisions regarding your your people as a whole, and then how you govern your your territory and interact with other sovereigns and then their territories.

Shandin Pete:

What if those decisions are deemed bad?

Aaron Brien:

Man, that sovereignty, I think,

Shandin Pete:

still should be still should be the train wreck let it let it fix itself? Well, it's,

Bryan Dupuis:

I guess, like being backed by EU because like, Yeah, who's the problem? Like we were looking at, like tribal leadership, you know, and some are theoretically thinking, you know, generations ahead and kind of bigger picture. And sometimes tribal members are upset, you know, at the immediate decisions. And so it's like, you know, so I guess he thought you're talking like the leadership being upset or the membership being upset? And so I guess, you know, those are kind of two different.

Shandin Pete:

Well, I guess, I guess. I mean, let's take North Korea, for example. Like they have, they have sovereignty to do what they wish. However, there's, apparently, there's a number of human rights violations. Well, human rights violations as determined by some world governing organization, I suppose. But I think for majority of the world, I'd say from what we know about what happens in North Korea, that we would all think that was probably morally wrong or bad. Well, what's going on? So, I guess, sovereignty, and that sort of dilemma presented with that sort of dilemma? Should I should that be allowed? Or should that be? What sort of, is there a provision about sovereignty when things become poor start to stray from general humanities moral compass? Yeah, it's, it's,

Bryan Dupuis:

it's difficult, because I get, you know, we got obviously like to have morals as a whole, but then it's like, once you start letting one group be able to tell another group what they can or, or can do it, it takes their sovereignty away. And, and so that's where I struggle with it. It's kind of that's what happened to Indian tribes in the sense and, like, we feel like we know what's in your best interests, you know, so they try to dictate that. And so it's like, yeah, I don't agree with what Kim Hong goons doing, you know, but at the same time, you know, if you start letting other people tell other people what to do, they eventually could come after you. Right, right.

Shandin Pete:

Let's see. So, how can we how can we confuse this even more, so All right, okay. So sovereignty is is sort of a, an inherent right, to govern oneself in the way that they deem fit. Okay. And how would they deem, who are, I guess, do would it even matter to anyone looking outside in what that deeming process is, and what fit might be defined as? or is that part of what sovereignty is is not even worrying about? Who ought to know or who ought to be a part of developing those constructs of fitness? And or of deeming things fit?

Bryan Dupuis:

That because then, you know, traditionally, just from what I've read, it seemed like things wild, you know, are varied wildly. It were some tribes there was no real government structure, just kind of when something would happen, they would address it and then others, like the Iroquois Confederacy, the Hoda shoni knows like five tribes a they had these different processes and how you'd go about maybe, like, modern day bringing a claim like I even heard this person, you know, damaged me in this way. And then they could have people speak on their behalf and almost kind of like out of court and evidence and, and stuff like that. And so it's you know, at that time in law that dated back to like, even like 1000 ad in long, you know, long before we had any European contact, some tribes are already kind of having some of those systems in place where other tribes had no systems in place, and it worked for them. Right. And so and so I guess it just kind of, I guess, depends on the need, and the group that's, you know, what, what needs they're trying to fulfill.

Shandin Pete:

Okay. So in the history of the North American continent, and all the things that happen in relation to colonialism, and assimilative policies, etc. The tribes were, I guess, in sort of a, were were put into a state of disarray. I mean, economies were destroyed and devastated intergeneration intergenerational ties were disrupted. We know all these things that happened, you know, and then things are pretty bad, you know, from the stories that we know and hear about how things were and how in I think that's, it's sort of where I think it is thought of mine is I think that's where we had a, the traditions of the outside world sort of leak in. Because you had a, you had a number of, I guess you could call them the same things that you were speaking of earlier, these inland speculators, but these were our our own tribal members. That became sort of these intermediaries between the modern, modern, modern, more moral lens in the traditional moral lens, and started to define sort of what was what they thought was important to make it in the world. And I mean, it's not, we're not there anymore, right? We're not, we're not in a state of destitution anymore. Our kids don't get sent off to boarding schools. I mean, some things are still present addiction, alcoholism, still issue those kind of things, you know, but that's, you know, sort of humanity thing in this day and age. So what's what's stopping us then from sort of sort of rewinding the clock a bit, or taking a step back to more of a modern, modern approach to where we were looking at the constructs of what we deem, you know, right or fit in, in order to address some of the ills that had happened from the past? What's What's stopping us from doing that?

Bryan Dupuis:

And club, it's skepticism, just skepticism on the system, you know, the buy in skepticism of, you know, basically trust in the US government, you know, it's kind of a pendulum flip back and forth and say, I sometimes err on the side and, and other times are totally against us. And there's a lot of really bad history that we had to overcome as tribes. And so I think a lot of that is just skepticism, you know, and I hear a lot of opportunities that tribes have, but then they're like, Oh, that's too good to be true or not, you know, they wouldn't come to us if it was really that good. And so, you know, tribes were turned down, like really good economic development opportunities, or, or, you know, opportunities to maybe join cases that could have had a different outcome, and, and just all across the board, just kind of skepticism of, you know, basically what the outcome is going to be. Because, you know, traditionally it never was in our favor, a lot of times, right.

Shandin Pete:

I guess what I'm talking about is, so I guess, for example, I've used this example, often and probably two romantically, I guess, in a way, but I think about the legal or the ancient legal system, or sort of the traditional tribal system. And I think of the whip, you know, public whipping of people when they did something wrong. What and it seemed to work, I mean, well, it worked in a time period, it worked. When tribes were more cohesive and together and people sort of had aligned beliefs and aligned thoughts and aligned pursuit of what ought to be to be achieved. What what what stopping tribes from exerting sovereignty and taking back some of those, those traditions in an incremental way so that and further helps to align sort of beliefs and thoughts, structures and norms.

Bryan Dupuis:

There's a lot of tribes actually kind of gotten that restorative justice model and start bringing back in customary law. I know Navajo Nation is a good example there peacemaking courts. Lakotas have something in the works. So they might have something to learn a few examples in school. And so I've learned about restoring harmony or restoring balance after like, an injustice happened. And so it's not like a punitive model like the American system like orient throw in a jail cell for 20 years, you won't do that again, you know, it's like more, how can we repair the damage? It's done? How can we repair this relationship, you know, and kind of keep the peace among people as a whole. And so there's a lot of tribes there kind of go in that route. And the courts have shown law deference towards it and kind of allowed it to happen. But then some cultural experts are then worried. You know, like, we all got like that, you know, maybe uncle Jimmy, you know, US customary law, you'd have a DUI or something. You gotta be careful. We started using

Unknown:

alcohol.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. This is homegrown man. That in issue anymore, but yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I just curious about it. I don't know. I don't know a lot about the legal construct of sovereignty. But there's a book.

Aaron Brien:

There's a book written by a guy named Keith bass. Okay. So and it's called the third space of sovereignty. Oh, it's really interesting read, man.

Shandin Pete:

It's yeah, pretty cool.

Aaron Brien:

I think that's it. The third space of sovereignty.

Shandin Pete:

Okay. We'll Google that up and find out. Give it a Bing Yeah.

Bryan Dupuis:

are also our local tribe. Compared to scrutiny tribes. The late went on a tanner when she was chief judge. For example, I used at the law school for customary law, when students would kind of wonder what it looked like is when people illegally poacher shoot deer, instead of just giving like the traditional $100, fine, she would make them go meet with the culture committee, and they get balled out by the elders, and then kind of explained why things are important. And then make them write up kind of a letter or paper, like explaining what they learned. And then she'd post them outside the court on the wall, and you could you could go in there and like read what these kids had to write and, and how they'll do that again, and they didn't realize the importance of it, and then they kind of get connected with their culture. And so a lot of that disharmony here are those restorative models, or they talk about a lot of reconnection. And so I have like that example. Like they got to reconnect with their culture and understood the importance of it.

Shandin Pete:

That's pretty good. I like that. Does that still happen or no? Is that something? Was that just her?

Bryan Dupuis:

Sure after she she passed if I think it's what she Plouffe now, I'm not sure if he still does the same thing or not?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Third space of sovereignty is Kevin Bruce. Bruyneel BRL. Yeah, Bruyneel.

Aaron Brien:

Bass. So wrote another book that I know wisdom sits in places and

Shandin Pete:

sits in place. Yeah. Okay, well, that's interesting, man. And, I don't know. It's like, it's like this aspiration of mine, I guess, to see, to see more effort to for tribes to sort of adopt a different way of doing things but you know, I don't I'm working on that. And I don't I don't sit in the trenches in that so I'm sure it's harder than I think to do. And just like any any quasi democracy, you know, you're you're you live and die by the vote and that's that's pretty true here. Where we come from as you know, you do something that might you might think is progressive and a handful of people that get that's going to be great and you know, if it doesn't align well with the with the majority of the population then you're out and your ideas are out and but to get a nice crisp job afterwards. Next department head of grants and procuration Gearman procurement Yeah, grants and procurements. Yeah. at IHS or so I don't know. Unless you're a one term, then you might, you know, maybe a supervisor position Dental. Don't know, I don't know where I'm going with this. I just was curious about this sovereignty thing. And from your experience your law experience knowing the United States legal tradition along with the current tribal law, you know, what are we doing, man? What are we doing? Are we just copying us tradition? Are we we trying some new different? I guess, across the country?

Bryan Dupuis:

It depends like tribe tribe, some tribes are really scared to do anything different. And I think unfortunately, tsk T falls a little under that umbrella. You know, we have the, the Indian Reorganization Act. Constitution. And so it's all boilerplate language. And we still have blood quantum, you know, which is an assimilation tactic. And so it's kind of, you know, but I think they're also kind of scared to kind of do anything different, you know, and maybe what the outcomes might be. But then you see, other tribes are doing really well at that. And, yeah, Japan have taken initiative. And I don't know if they just have the right people in the right positions, you know, like the pasady to kind of go that route or, you know, are they just saying screw? Let's do it. You know, like, what do we got to lose?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a strange one. I don't know. I just don't know. How to follow up on this night, and I forgot it. Oh, they're gonna say, Oh, yeah. I'm curious. Oh, Aaron's getting tired. Look at him. Stuck. Alright, your partner, you want to jump in on this? I've been saying a lot things. I'm waiting for Aaron, because he asked the initial question about sovereignty. I think it was smokescreen. So he could shoot off a text or two. Is that true? No, no. Is he engaged? He's listening.

Aaron Brien:

That's unfair question. That's it? No, I'm good. I'm listening. No, you were talking. And you're saying, I had a follow up for that. And I forgot. So stay quiet thinking, Oh, he's gonna come up with this thing. This is your teammate. It weird.

Shandin Pete:

I did it. Well, I'm sorry. What did I do? What did I do?

Aaron Brien:

Disaster question.

Shandin Pete:

I don't have a question. Okay. I relented, and this is it. Well, this goes off topic. So what I want what I want to share and give everyone a chance to reflect on all the things that Brian and I just said, to be fair and inclusive. So everybody can be heard. I talked a lot on this. You did? Yeah. That was good man. Proud of you.

Aaron Brien:

I'm a pessimist, dude. I don't, I don't have any faith in the federal government. I don't, I don't believe in our form of tribal government now. So I'm down for whatever man, like, there's never been a system created by the US government, that favorite tribal peoples, it'd be no different for anything from the the reorganization act, or any non Ira tries. So it's still all just following the template of a fake representative democracy that, in fact, cannot work in populations that are small, it just can't can't function because there's no n a minute T and N.

Shandin Pete:

Khan. And

Aaron Brien:

there's none of that when you know, everybody your system is going to break. So it has to be a different form. Why not use? Well, I think you can't put the genie back in the bottle. But yeah, I'm not a very positive person when it comes to this kind of stuff. So I'm often the wrong person that talked to like about anything like this because for one, we as tribes cannot get unified on even what sovereignty means. Secondly, sovereignty is a muscle that has to be exercised, and some tribes don't want to do it. They just don't want to exercise that muscle. So I'm a bit complacent. And I pout a little bit when it comes to it. Because for one it takes big brass balls to do it, man. Yeah, honest to God, like you got to be willing to take on the US government. You gotta be willing to shake the tree man. Yeah, and a lot of us aren't. We don't want to bite the hand. No.

Bryan Dupuis:

X, it definitely, like wasn't a system that was designed for us, you know, and so we kind of anomaly and think they intended to have a place for us in this Somebody's kind of just had to, you know, make it make it work. And, you know, it's, that's kind of like, you know, I had to kind of get over in law school in the very beginning, I was real frustrated down on the whole system, but then I was like, you know, and also wasn't designed for us. It wasn't meant for us, but at least, you know, maybe now we could try to use it in our favor. We more understand it than we did 150 years ago, where it was used to our detriment. Yeah. That's always like, the real frustrating thing in law. You know, it's like, when you're reading these cases, it's hard not to have a physical reaction. It's not It's hard not to get upset, you know, and, and you're generic supposed to be trying to learn, and it's like your heart's racing, you're sweating. You know, you want to pass and you know, it's always it's always difficult, I think.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Agreed.

Bryan Dupuis:

So I definitely have those frustrations. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

It's hard. It's hard. Until you see the economic state of a lot of tribes in the West, it's really hard. For people it's in theoretically, law can work, right. But it's hard to accept that. That concept when you're when you see poor people, man. The attack on the court is typically not a privilege of poor people. Of any group, right? And so, when you challenge law, it's typically a privilege. And it's, it's usually backed by finances. And Native people, especially in the West are poor. They're poor people. Some of these places are like, third world conditions. And it's hard to go there and think, oh, yeah, I believe in the system. Now, you know what I mean? Like, I believe that it can work for us. It's hard. It really is. So I think some of that plays a role in it. It's not, it's not that, that we can't win with the law. Like, I do agree with Brian that, like, it's the system we're given, we have to learn to work within it. And we can, and we have case study that prove that. But when you come from a people for the last 150 years, in some cases, 200 we don't know how to win. We just don't know how to find success and things. So we, we we, we just we self destruct and other ways, you know, so like, it's hard for us to see long term that when some places don't even have, we don't we can't even build an infrastructure literally. So when when new buildings go up, it freaks everybody out. Imagine challenging the court. It's going to be like such a foreign thing. That's my that's my two cents. And this is all because of Chief Justice. John Marshall. And his three little law cases that he just whatever decided that he was going to just use a control freak, man. He's a weird guy, do you?

Bryan Dupuis:

Yeah, that's like weird in the beginning, they didn't even know like, who is just justice Chief Marshal and Supreme Court and it's like, kinda like state Georgia didn't even show up to their to our arguments. Amen. present oral argument or nothing,

Aaron Brien:

dude. And then Andrew Jackson says, wife, it's your decision, you enforce it. You know what, even so you've got this highly insecure Chief Justice who's like, God, dang it, people listen to me, you know? Whatever do to do what you want.

Shandin Pete:

And there's too much, too much. Well, Brian, it's been. I don't know, it's been a great discussion for me. I learned quite a bit about certain things. But I want to know, do you have anything else you want to add? Why,

Bryan Dupuis:

as far as Supreme Court kind of decisions go in Indian country, I believe was 2010. Or maybe it's early 2000s. Yeah, like the Supreme Court project kind of start up for tribes started trying to kind of unify and kind of strategizing on their briefs. And so I just submit like 50 duplicated, bleep duplicated briefs, they would kind of strategize like wait, we're talking about this. We're gonna talk about that. It's split it up. And since then, you know, it seems like we're really making headway in Indian Country. You could start in kind of the late 70s, early 80s till 2010. It was kind of the Dark Ages. You know, I think there were two cases the tribes won during the whole time. And it's like one of the worst worst periods of Indian law. Yeah, and subscribe start kind of unifying and using, you know, these really prestige Just Supreme Court attorneys unfortunately, they're all predominantly white males. But yeah, you know, either these these high up guys kind of argue our cases and it's kind of working out in our favor, you know with McGirt and Cooley Cougar den, you know, a lot of those recent ICWA like Brackeen. And but on the other side, you know, something we got to be aware of in Indian countries are this firm, I'm not gonna say their name, but they're really anti Indian. And they're the ones taken up all these cases pro bono. So they're like hand selecting these cases to try to overturn these concepts and Indian law. So they're the one took up Brackeen they took a coolie they, you know, so they, they're the ones taking up all these cases. And, and so I think it's good in some ways. Like, you know, 1015 20 years ago, things might have been different if we could have united as you know, 574 tribes, or Hamba, those are federally recognized tribes, but, you know, at least nowadays in current day, we are starting to kind of see that unification and seeing the payoffs from it. Because they'll have the same interests and

Shandin Pete:

interests in casinos. No, not as one of the development.

Bryan Dupuis:

Yeah, cuz I mean, that's one thing I always joke around with any casinos, but yeah, federal policy. I mean, yeah, it's really hard to make money when you don't even own your land.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, that's yeah, that's a stereotype and it's kind of a joke, but that's that's the real that's the real deal, right? That's the product of that some of that work. Well, that's cool, man. You know, I don't know what else to say. I'm a fan. I'm fan of fancy words. So what was the one you said again? perfunctory use of rectory use.

Bryan Dupuis:

Basically, the right to occupy the right to gather the right to hunt and fish.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, that's awesome. Feel like I feel like I got some perfunctory theory business. I gotta do it right.

Aaron Brien:

Well, you're not you're not saying it right.

Shandin Pete:

What did you say? Again? I want the audience to know how to say this word. Use of factory use of factory use of factory okay. It's awesome man. Around but Aaron, what's up, man? Let's wrap this. Let's wrap this up. Man. This is a cool one. I'm glad we had a chance to chat with Brian again. Again congratulations on your

Aaron Brien:

yeah man congratulation the accomplishment as

Bryan Dupuis:

well from just laying it cigarettes drive thru window to hydrologists like now and Indian laga no

Aaron Brien:

big deal it is it's a big deal and it shouldn't it shouldn't be taken lightly.

Shandin Pete:

No, it's

Aaron Brien:

it's it's a privilege to represent Indian people is sometimes I forget it was my job. But um it's a good reminder that you it's it's not it's it's a responsibility but it's it's a it's a good burden to have you know

Shandin Pete:

for sure. Well, cool, man. Any last words Brian and then we'll we'll sign around which god

Bryan Dupuis:

yeah, just thank you guys for having me man. It's always a joy to be asked you guys and I have a good old conversation and

Shandin Pete:

awesome, man. All right, Dr.

Bryan Dupuis:

Recognition.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah. Good, Doctor. Dirty belly out.

Aaron Brien:

And dirty belly. Alright guys, enjoy your pork chops and Kool Aid.

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Aaron Brien

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Shandin Pete

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