Tribal Research Specialist: The Podcast

#37 - Reconciling Past and Present Realities: Issues with written text about “Indian Things”

• Aaron Brien, Shandin Pete • Season 2 • Episode 37

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In this episode  we revisit some unfinished business from a previous discussion. Specifically, We dive deeper in the complications found when Native thoughts and philosophies are committed to written text, especially in legal and academic scholarship. Some primary issues are knowing that we may not fully understand the construct that are being writing about. Additionally, some traditions and customs are better left out of written form in order to preserve their evolutionary nature. The cautionary tale here is that some written forms of Tribal thoughts and traditions can become interpreted as static and settle business. Yet, many tradition and customs have evolved with the changing world. This can cause much confusion and perpetuation of romantic stereotypes.

Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)

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Shandin Pete:

Well, that's not gonna work. Not work super now. Not at work. I can you can hear me all right. I can hear you really good. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. Can you hear me?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Great. Good luck, man you sound like a champ

Aaron Brien:

janitor.

Shandin Pete:

Hello and welcome to tribal research specialists, the podcast where we will be talking about important things to work in. Hello and welcome to tribal research specialist the podcast, a podcast dedicated to chatting about Hello and welcome to nice rich attacked nice rich, deep audio. People love that. Love that.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, let's do.

Shandin Pete:

We're doing

Aaron Brien:

needed it gets the people going

Shandin Pete:

I can do some post production get it? Alright, sounds good, though. I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna say it doesn't sound good. It sounds good. It sounds good.

Aaron Brien:

I mean, but But what would what would it? What would my headphones mean? plugged into the mic change in the sound?

Shandin Pete:

Nothing. Nothing. Just that you could hear yourself.

Aaron Brien:

So this is a moot point.

Shandin Pete:

It is the point is moot. The point

Aaron Brien:

let's just move on.

Shandin Pete:

Moving on. Moving on. I want you to listen to some. I want you to listen to this.

Aaron Brien:

I need to academics much before we do

Shandin Pete:

No, no. You need a smudge with someone's someone's all thesis that nobody reads is burn that up. We're gonna smudge with the thesis and all thesis. What is the Sci Fi site?

Aaron Brien:

This is a little curl language manual.

Shandin Pete:

Have a cheat sheet. It is that's a good. Okay. Where'd you get it? Where do you get the cheat sheet? To find it on road? Open House. You cut out so I couldn't hear you if you're saying some.

Aaron Brien:

I wasn't saying anything.

Shandin Pete:

Oh. We'll ask you a question. god darn it. Where'd you get it? Oh, we get the pamphlet.

Aaron Brien:

It's one of those summer language. Oh, two things.

Shandin Pete:

Okay. You didn't get it there in like a diabeetus walk or fun run. Table

Aaron Brien:

A diet. Got it actually on a diabetes awareness bizarre people, those people who don't know about diabetes

Shandin Pete:

followed by a native fashion show. Those are taken off.

Aaron Brien:

Okay. All right. Let's start.

Shandin Pete:

So that's a good one. No, I think it's a good one needs that needs some. Some banter. We'll hit it later, later, but I want you to listen to this.

Aaron Brien:

Okay, listen,

Shandin Pete:

I want you to listen to this. And want your take on it. Are you ready?

Aaron Brien:

Yep.

Shandin Pete:

Here we go.

Aaron Brien:

I can see where like deeply rooted cultural people would say like to call it to give it personhood would imply that we understand it. You know, it kind of has this implication that it's like us and and I can see them getting kinda frazzled about that. But from a law point of view, I get it. I totally get it like, and I almost think like, that's the way it was. That's the way they used it. So using it as a form of controlling power. Because you go in there talking cultural stuff, and I'm gonna get right

Shandin Pete:

here that.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, what was that all about?

Shandin Pete:

That was you.

Aaron Brien:

Well, I got that. But what am I talking about?

Shandin Pete:

What are you rattling on about?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

well, okay. So this is this is cool. This is cool, because all right. So this is related to the thing you had, in your hand, the pamphlet about language. Been a lot of efforts, revitalized language, revitalize cultural pursuits. Anything you put revitalized we're going to revitalize it. method of revitalization. Whatever, right.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

But I think you said something pretty important because we're talking about personhood, of a river in that conversation, if remember that episode 31, personhood, rivers. And you brought up this good, this good point. I think that relates to a lot of things in it. I wrote this one, I wrote this. But now I'm gonna say no. So I relate to this. There is a lot of things about Indians trying to do Indian things, do we really understand it? Well enough to just speak as an authority about it. About Indian stuff. Yeah. So in this case, son is gonna give it context. So we're talking about personhood for a river, and the complications around that. But then you you interjected with this great point is do we even understand it well enough to, to say, yeah, it deserves this title. We talked about, yeah, we talked about all kinds of complications related to that, is it can it really even be classified as a person we talked about it? Many things that how a river cannot be a person. But more importantly, I think that is that that key thing that you said? We don't even understand it? Well enough to be a good guess the to be telling what it is or it isn't. And then further, you said that the law, the layout, the law that's kind of being created, I guess, around the idea of of personhood, was this the form of power and control in under some legal authority? Now, that in itself just kind of negates a lot of ideas related to cultural pursuits, because I'm in to write a law about ceremonial things, for example, we can do that. That's not where that that that thing is housed. Because number one, I guess I asked myself the question, Do I understand it enough to to be an authoritative person to write to commit it to American or Canadian or some written law? That's, that's huge, man. That's like that seemed, it seems in a way, to me it seems pompous to say I understand this well enough. I can write a paragraph about it. And then it is law.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. I maybe I accidentally said something smart, you know?

Shandin Pete:

Well, I mean, that's debatable. That's what that's what I'm asking you right. Now, again, think about that statement, you said. And in relation to what you know, about ceremonial practice. But not even that, even though even outside of the ceremonial practice, into every day, native life? How much authority do you feel you have? Or even someone else who's like, the most versed in that topic, to commit it to a piece of paper and say, This is what it is? Would they do that? That's the question

Aaron Brien:

No. And I Yeah, and I even in my current position as kind of like a cultural head of for the tribe. I don't think I have any authority. Yeah, but I think the power of, of resource law and like, using whatever loopholes in the law, or whatever avenues in the law to gain some some sort of authority or say, I think, see, I used to think like the law was tricky, right. So yeah, so for example, like, this idea of personhood, and like, if I published or not published, but if I gave a talk one day, and I said, Hey, man, this idea of creating a river and giving it personhood is nonsense. Yeah, there was a time I would have not said that, because I felt like it would have hurt the case. But that's not how the law works. Right? The law isn't predicated on that. So just like, just like in a in a murder case, right. Like it's not it's really not the pursuit of whether you did the crime or whether you didn't do the crime. It's it's, is there enough evidence to prove that so just like in This case was personhood. It's not. It's not our job in the Indian community to say, is that even a thing or not a thing? But for the sake of law, is there enough evidence to prove that and I think that's, that's where we need to focus. Because sometimes we can get caught in like these real like, my new details to where we work ourselves out of something, you know? Yeah, and I believe that. But on the flip side, here's the scary part about doing this stuff with ceremony are is you create doctrine, you unknowingly create doctrine and ceremony by being these kinds of things. Yeah, because that's not how ceremony works. That's not how cultural history works. That's not how religious practices work for tribal people. They're living, right. So that means that whether we admit it or not, they evolve. Yeah. Now, the nucleolus might stay the same. I actually heard that today, the sky, the nucleolus says, you know, our ceremonies or nucleolus, might stay the same. But they've changed over time. And he's, he was, he's the head of the crow tobacco society and all the ceremonies involved in that. And so coming from him, that is a powerful statement, you know, yeah. He said that to me, my office. And I thought that was refreshing in a way for me to hear him say that. So this idea that what is personhood to us now may not be personhood to us in 20 years, and might not even be the same in 10 years. Yeah. So I feel like, we have to be a little more cautious about using the law for the sake of authority, because we can unknowingly create doctrine for our own culture. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Shandin Pete:

I do I do, and I think the tribal governments, the tribal government structure that was handed to tribes through the, what was it the IRA, that hold a constitution? I think I think folks embrace that too much as, like you said, like doctrine, you know, well, we got to follow the Constitution, the tribal constitution, what does the tribal constitution say? We should follow that, or using that as an argument point, especially when it comes into things of cultural nature, you see that? But also you see it when we're in law, like, like, what is it? Like, okay, like resource, like a resource, or like hunting laws, tribal hunting laws, those all sudden get thought of as, as like, like a traditional practice. Like at one point in time, I can't remember the exact date, but there was a buck law that the state had passed to where you could only shoot books, and you couldn't shoot those. And you can imagine the, the surprised by those who still live in off the land that you know, what, guy you know, you need fresh meat, you need fresh meat, and it you know, there's it's irrelevant to, to a written document whether or not you can hunt a dog or not. But then all sudden, you know, you fast forward to the future. And then folks think that's, that might have been the traditional practice. Like you said, it's exactly what you said, it becomes an indoctrinated. And yeah, you see that? You see, you can see that also in? I don't

Aaron Brien:

Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

So yeah, so that so Okay, so there's that. And know, I guess you could, you could think of it in terms of like someone researching some past tradition. So they read it somewhere in somewhere, it says that this was done at a certain time. And then it becomes solidified that that was only then there's the statement further that you said about done at that certain time, because it was written without understanding the context of the time period. okay, well, that's a form of like trying to gain some power and control over, over whatever, right. So this idea of personhood, this idea of laws to control whatever hunting practices or whatever, whatever even even created a lot to control the gambling. On the rez, they said he couldn't you guys, Indians, this is tribal government Indians can only play stick game on Sundays. That was a law passed on a reservation by tribal government. Of course this was back I think it's 50s or 40s, or something to keep keep Indians from drinking, I guess? I don't know. I don't know. But so so if we fast forward today, and we see a number of people writing things about Indian stuff, and the consumers of that are reading these things, and then they think that that's it. That's what it is. And there's no flexibility around that. That's dangerous, like you said. Very dangerous. So what's so what then is the solution? What's the solution? Is there one?

Aaron Brien:

I don't know.

Shandin Pete:

You're the expert. Man. I brought you here tonight. To supply answer.

Aaron Brien:

I don't know what you would do. Because yeah, we're still going to use the law. We ask the legal system for any game. Yeah, we have to it's our only. Yeah. It's our only rook in the game, right? We don't, because we don't really have a queen. I mean, but

Shandin Pete:

Canada is Canada's

Aaron Brien:

Oh, come

Shandin Pete:

anyway. Keep going. Keep going. Okay. Yeah, it's our only rookie in the game.

Aaron Brien:

So I think it's very possible. Yeah, for us to believe in a system that we know is completely flawed and not the best. And I think that's what's happening. I think somehow people people have adopted dislike, belief in everything, whether it's people social customs research. Yeah. And indeed, people have adopted this to where we have to believe in something the same all the time. Like, yeah, we can have we can have duality, right. Yeah. So I think it's possible for us to believe in the law, the letter of the law, and not believe in it at the same time. Yeah. Because I think because the truth is, I feel like that's where I stand. I stand in this place where I acknowledge that these things are the best practices for the moment in that realm. Yeah. But I also believe that there's a whole nother thing that that doesn't necessarily affect and, and it's possible to live at the same time, and I'm just like, it's possible to be. We say it's not possible to be like a Catholic in a in a in a medicine man. Right. Yeah. Like, and I've come to kind of believe this. But the fact is, is there are Yeah, yeah. So whether we, whether that's our own personal belief, and we can make these arguments like we can say, we could say, Was it really possible, are you 100% This or whatever, blah, blah, yeah, okay. That's, that's fine. But it's still the fact that in practice, there still are people who are practitioners of culture and they're Catholic. Yeah. And we can argue that that's an unarguable fact. Yeah. Yeah. Just like you can you can have the law. And no, it's not good for your tribe or not good, necessarily for your people. But it's still there. And it's still functioning, and it still works. So I think some somehow we've adopted this belief that there's only one truth. Just like you can still be intelligent and productive and be flawed. We don't we don't believe that. That's possible for someone to be both. Yeah, right. And we believe that about about the law, we don't believe that about our own culture and our own ceremonies. We don't believe I don't know where we get that from.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. That's a strange one. That's a strange one. And that's like, Well, okay, so it's like this, too. It's like fighting back against this idea of, we had the one episode where we talked about walking in two worlds.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

he kind of went off. You can have a moment. And you said, you know, don't even remember. You must have blacked out. No, he said, Yeah, we don't. It's one world where I live in one world. No two worlds

Aaron Brien:

case. Yeah. I thought you were making fun of me for saying that. I guess. Well, no, I mean, I am but no, I'm not. In that case. That's true. Like, right. Like, there's not this idea that like, there's my Indian hat. And there's my Yeah, Guy hat. It's really both. It's always happening at one time. Yeah. Is it possible that we're in the first four or five generations of having to negotiate that? Yeah, that's a fact. Right?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. So yeah, and that's, I think that's an important thing to note. And that's an important thing for people to understand. And, and I think and I think natives do it too. And I think we try to fit ourselves into that hat from the past and the hat from the now. But we're not man. I don't think we are when we're not that those people from the past. We wake up every morning and to an alarm clock, which is a colonial construct colonial I said it.

Aaron Brien:

Oh,

Shandin Pete:

no, I try.

Aaron Brien:

Wow, Okay.

Shandin Pete:

colonial. anyway. Yeah. So it surrounds us. It surrounds us every day. So, yeah, show me the one person who is traditional Ultra tradition. In in, in the way of our Are you ready? ancestors, you're not going to find one person like that. No way. And I challenge anyone. Now I better know. Anyway. Yeah. So. So then we're stuck with this. With this weird. We're in this weird place. Now, I want you to listen to this clip.

Aaron Brien:

Yep.

Shandin Pete:

He's ready. Here we go.

Aaron Brien:

I'm super ready.

Shandin Pete:

Super ready. All right. Well, let's super play it.

Aaron Brien:

Real skeptical of any time. Wondering, I'm skeptical anytime these major political powerhouses like US, Canada, I mean, Australia, Russia, like, if they're gonna hand something. And I'm using the word the term hand something loosely, but to tribal people. Like what's the catch? Yeah. Right. Right. And it's because it's it's personhood. That means that it's subject to all things in personhood. That means a beginning and an end.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, so skeptical. skeptical of. I guess what we have to do. So this navigation of this legal structure of the social structure. We have this inherent

Aaron Brien:

dirt I thought, well, there was still the recording.

Shandin Pete:

You guys still gone? Come on, man. Oh, you can't see the screen in.

Aaron Brien:

No, I can see I can't see. You see, I could see. But I was I had my head down and I was contemplating. Geez, ocean deep thought day.

Shandin Pete:

I can't even when I was gonna, I can remember what you said. No. Let me listen to that. Again, real quick. The first part

Aaron Brien:

real skeptical of any time. I'm wondering, I'm skeptical anytime these major political powerhouses like US, Canada, I mean, Australia, Russia, like, if they're gonna hand something. And I'm using the word the term hand something loosely, but to tribal people. Like what's the catch? Yeah. Right. Right.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, so I think the history of Indians dealing with the government there's this inherent thought that we're getting tricked or getting bamboozled in some way. So we could wink.

Aaron Brien:

I thought it was hood wigged.

Shandin Pete:

Is it hoodwinked? I don't know. There was a show called hoodwinked.

Aaron Brien:

That was a cartoon, wasn't it?

Shandin Pete:

Yes, cartoon. Actually. I don't know. I don't know. What I was gonna say about that. Got done. I forgotten I heard. Yeah. So um, yeah, we have the skepticism about it. And man was for cutter and he got dang it. Anyway, so thoughts on that? Maybe I'll maybe I'll just select Frank,

Aaron Brien:

I guess still agree with that?

Shandin Pete:

Well, yeah, I mean, I do too. Like we have the skepticism. I think how does, how does it affect what we do?

Aaron Brien:

You know, what's weird about about a law like this? And then what? Knowing just working now within kind of this whole world of resource management, a law like this personhood thing, ultimately, probably won't do anything. Okay? It'll be like a toothless law. But for Indian people at will, like we'll be sitting at home and it'll give us the sense of like, whatever you know, and, and that's where it'll affect us and in non Indian world, it'll have no effect on anything. In fact, most most of what I see life goes on as it is the business, as usual, will go on. So it makes me wonder though, what the trade off is for something like this because So if we just like pursue these laws and these designations, whether it's personhood, our, our traditional cultural property, or cultural landscape or whatever, yeah, these designations are eligibility for the National Register, however, we're going to use our work to do to, to get a designation. Ultimately, that means there's a trade off and what I'm seeing now, in my work as a preservation officer, that's always what it is, is a trade off. Okay. But I think you're getting at that anyway.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, that's kind of what I was that that was that was the that was the question. What are we trading off when we prescribe to the written law that we have to navigate anyway, so this so let's establish something we have to do it? We have to operate within the law of whatever respective nation that we are, we are a part of including our own let's let's put our own nations in there. So the Crow Nation CS K T, both have codified laws and constitutions, right? Is that right? Am I right? Cena? Crow tribe has codified laws and a cause. Constitution.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

yeah. And you got to follow that?

Aaron Brien:

Well, yeah. Under the ninth under the 1934. Indian Reorganization Act, that you have these certain kinds of facets of your of your government, that the crows did not, did not accept the IRS or non Ira try meaning we had the right to choose what type of government we had. We ultimately, in the long run and chose the three branch government marrying the United States government, which doesn't work,

Shandin Pete:

the glory of the US government founded in Iroquois tradition. That read that debatable

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. Yeah. So that's, I think it's very debatable, I think.

Shandin Pete:

What Anyway, moving on from there. So yeah, so we'll have to operate from this this layer of laws, federal, state, and tribal. That's, that's the Indian reality, those three layers of tribal law. And in doing so, we make a trade off. And I think because we're not willing to make a trade off for certain things. Certain things have not been committed to law. And I think, and I think and I don't know, maybe maybe I'm way off. But I think this idea of this personhood for a river, because the statement you said, I don't understand it. I don't know if I don't know if why it hasn't really gained. I was wasn't even even an option. Like in the time of have the two three generations before us. They never said when they wrote the Constitution. Oh, yeah. Right, in that the Flathead River is a person to that was never written into the law. Because it was not even. It wasn't even a concept or a thought. Because I think because of all the things we said in that episode, because I don't think we're willing to trade off certain things. But I don't I don't know if the belief was held that that was even a thing back then. I don't know, though. So what have we traded off then? That's that's the question. What do we trade it off? By adopting? You don't know.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, I know. What do you think

Shandin Pete:

you're paying attention? We

Aaron Brien:

know I was.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, I don't know anything,

Aaron Brien:

I don't think. I think maybe we just traded off leaving them alone. So for whatever reason that whatever the pursuit was to for getting the person typically had to do with the protection of something right, yeah. What gives a river rights?

Shandin Pete:

Well, well, I mean, I wasn't speaking specifically about personhood for river I'm thinking about, in general, when a tribe caved into the pressures of the government. And

Aaron Brien:

those trade offs using money.

Shandin Pete:

trade off was money. But what so okay,

Aaron Brien:

it's money.

Shandin Pete:

But what did the tribes lose? Also, in that trade, they, I mean, yeah,

Aaron Brien:

sovereign immunity. I don't know. Got to give a shout out to what I got a dedicated listener in Bloomington Indiana named Tommy D.

Shandin Pete:

Tommy D. What up Tommy D Tommy

Aaron Brien:

D. So so give Tommy D a little message get Tommy

Shandin Pete:

Tommy I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna do some slam poetry about Tommy D.

Aaron Brien:

Oh do

Shandin Pete:

Tommy D Yeah, we're bouncing on my knee and I said this Abraham Lincoln know

Aaron Brien:

that

Shandin Pete:

I could think of nothing else don't know man I can I can

Aaron Brien:

this donkey says Whoa, Tommy Dee. Oh, Tommy. The a D comes before E. E goes MC Squared Tommy D O. O. Tom beat the Yes. Oh, also also wild gallery. Wild Oh gallery wild gallery in Oklahoma, Texas. Texas, I believe Texas. Yeah, wild gallery in Texas. Larry. Let's do a little shout out to

Shandin Pete:

Yes. Oh, also also wild gallery. Wild

Aaron Brien:

Oh gallery wild gallery in Oklahoma, Texas.

Shandin Pete:

Texas, I believe

Aaron Brien:

Texas. Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

wild gallery in Texas. Larry. Let's do a little shout out to wild gallery. Yes, in Texas wild wild art gallery. helping to sponsor some of the things we've got going on here. So yeah, you know, head on over to

Aaron Brien:

what town is it in?

Shandin Pete:

Austin, Texas.

Aaron Brien:

Okay, so when you're when you're in Austin, Texas. You guys go and stop at Wild gallery? Art Gallery. Right? Yeah. Get over there. Tell him that traveled to you. That you're there. You're there because you You heard us on the pod and then just just to go circle back to Tommy D. I don't I don't know anything about Tommy D All I know is my nephew Jacobs over there and said Hey, Tommy D. Like she podcast. listens to the podcast supports the pots podcast so thank you Tommy D. And yeah, yeah, good luck in Bloomington. Whatever it is. You're doing.

Shandin Pete:

Thanks, Tommy D and wild gallery why l d.gallery.com. I think

Aaron Brien:

so tribal research specialist for sale. Send us your money. If you want to stay

Shandin Pete:

well slam poetry. Your your significant other with that slam poetry service.

Aaron Brien:

We need a Pancake House to Coffee House sponsorship

Shandin Pete:

I think you don't know what I'm fishing for. Don't

Aaron Brien:

just just hit me hit me with your best shot.

Shandin Pete:

You got to hit me with your best shot.

Aaron Brien:

Oh, yeah. He sounded like Tonka.

Shandin Pete:

Oh, yeah. Yes. That was the goal. Yeah, I mean, we got rid of some things, some pretty important things. And one of those was I think something that was really this idea of social order and social control I think was lost in that that exchange but I think it was

Aaron Brien:

Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

I think it might have been on the way out anyway just because of just how things are being modernized anyway. I don't know though. I just don't know what but to assign authority and away well okay, but the crows don't do it. Don't do it. And the in a similar way that I'm accustomed to on the CS Katie, right.

Aaron Brien:

I don't I don't know.

Shandin Pete:

There isn't a vote. Like someone nominates themselves or applies to be on a council. And then people vote and that person might win and become what do you do? What do you got? got yourself a nice Roach on there?

Aaron Brien:

Well, we're talking in Vienna figure out where to get into get in the end up man. I will call cuz like people run for positions, right? We have a legislative body we have. We have zout. You're asking

Shandin Pete:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

They just run for the position and then voted on through like the public the public votes Not yet. Not. So under the crow constitution that anyone over the age of 18 is the General Counsel.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

So we're all the General Counsel,

Shandin Pete:

can everybody, anybody can vote? And anybody can run for an office?

Aaron Brien:

Yes, you have to pay your filing fee,

Shandin Pete:

you have to pay your filing fee, but you decide whether you're going to run or not.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, this is where I would say that the CRO form of government is really entwined with CRO culture. And I don't know if this is necessarily good or bad. So the way it happens, is one of your clan fathers, or something will come to you a lot of times and say they want you to run and lock times or these kind of these little meetings, people will say, we're all going to meet at this guy's house, we want you to be there. So you'll go there. I'm not saying this has happened to me. But yeah, let's say basically say we've been talking about it, we want you to run such and such position. Yeah. And typically they'll pay the your filing fee, and then you run. And so is that. Is that a formal part of the process? It's yeah, I was wondering. Yeah, it's not. In fact, it can get really weird because there's cases where a lot of people that don't typically want to run for anything, but they respect the culture that they'll say, Oh, my client came to me, and they said they wanted me to run, so I'm gonna run.

Shandin Pete:

Mm hmm. And so do people also. Run just on their own? With

Aaron Brien:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Shandin Pete:

So that happened?

Aaron Brien:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Shandin Pete:

So there's a mix happening.

Aaron Brien:

It's a mix. But what I'm saying is, I guess what I'm saying is like, it's not totally independent. Like, we're thinking like, any person can run, you know, yeah. Because there's also been cases, like, for example, like, if I was to run for, let's say, a vice chairman of the Crow tribe, right? Yeah. And then my brother in law was gonna run for the vice chairman of the Crow tribe. And it's my sister's husband. Yeah, I'm obligated. At least the way I understand crow belief, I would be obligated to bail out. I'm not gonna run against my brother at all.

Shandin Pete:

Okay. But none of these things are written.

Aaron Brien:

No, they're not. They're these kind of unwritten.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

You know, the old adage.

Shandin Pete:

The old adage, I don't know it. What does it say?

Aaron Brien:

Oh,

Shandin Pete:

I know what I mean. So yeah, so that's the thing. That's the thing. There's some things that are not written into law, but there's to practice, to a certain extent,

Aaron Brien:

see in seeds over here feeds. So like when you're running. If you don't feed, you're probably not going to win.

Shandin Pete:

Right?

Aaron Brien:

Like public feeds, having these public feeds come and eat, come and make a plate. Hey, tell your family come and make a plate, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm cooking a beef. I'm donating a beef to our district, blah, blah, blah, come and make a plate.

Shandin Pete:

I'll hand out a box of oranges.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, like actually literally like handout groceries. Because in the old days, during the chief system leaders were people who could provide those things. Yeah. I had the skill to to say, hey, yeah, I brought this in. And I'm gonna distribute it amongst you, you know.

Shandin Pete:

So what would be the issue? If that was written, as well as law, or as part of the the process of selection of leaders?

Aaron Brien:

I think it could really affect the organic form of leadership. Right? Right. You know what I mean? I do an example is my great grandfather. His name was Max big man. He was never a chairman. He was never a an elected official. But anyone from that time from the mid 1920s, to about 1950 Understood Max big men to be like, the leader, especially of those, but they were calling the river Crow people are like, yeah, Crow Agency, Reno district people. He was the leader. It was, it was across the board that most people seen him as the head man. But he wasn't elected there. They had they had the council They had the executive the chairman, vice chairman and stuff. Yeah. So we still kind of have those these these people who are, headman. Yeah. So if you want certain families, you will pursue the headman of those families. And in some cases, women, you know, it's not necessarily determined by men or women, but so they'll they'll call those people and say, Hey, we need your votes, because you come. And that's how it works. Like a lot of families. My family doesn't do this, but a lot of families will get together. Yeah, they'll have a family meeting, they'll say such and such as running. Yeah. We're going to vote this way. Hmm. So basically, the patriarch, or the matriarch of that family is deciding for the whole family how they're going to vote. Because in the old days, they would have followed that leader, they'll say, We're gonna follow him. He's our chief, He's our leader. We're gonna follow him.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. So so right. So writing those things down, making them part of the the tribal law or tribal Constitution as as it is today would not be a benefit to that process. Because you say it should be an organic process. So implying that it's not a rigid, or a static process that if there's some something about it, that's changing. Or that's, there's flexibility?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, I guess I don't know how to articulate that part of it. I don't really know. But, yeah, you're on to the right thing. Like there's something there, you know, yeah, we excuse me. So if we like, write a process down. Yep. We could inadvertently alter the natural system. In and I don't know if we want to necessarily do that. Because I also don't know, I don't necessarily believe it's the right thing to do. Like, I don't think yeah, the way we're doing it, the unofficial way we're doing it is probably not the right way or not the best way to do it. Right. Right. So it would alter it in some fashion. This channel doesn't even understand. I mean, I understand that, but I'm Chyna for the listener to draw it out. So what what would what would change about writing it down? Well, I would hope that system be altered.

Shandin Pete:

But doesn't evolve? Yeah, exactly. It wouldn't evolve. And it needs to evolve, right?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah. For example. Yeah. Crows are pretty stubborn about people speaking crow. So 30 years ago, if someone ran for chairman who didn't speak Crow, they would even have a chance. They didn't even have a chance. Yeah. Now, that's not the case. Had we written laws back then saying these are the requirements to be our leader? Yeah. you limit the pool. Plus you take the vote away from the individual. So the individual might say, Well, I wanted that guy. I wanted to follow that individual. Yeah. And they may not speak through or may not even be traditional. Yeah. If you're saying I know that we have to pick this. You know, that your cowboy hat or they have to do you know, whatever it is. It's like, it's like you don't want to you don't want to inadvertently stunt stunt the system. If you don't wear a king Roper hat and got Yeah, if you don't work in robes, and we're sitting you ain't coming around here. We don't like your kin around Yeah. We don't wear wrangler hats. King ropes were King ropes around here.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, so that that's the big issue, I think and just just to I guess, apply some more evidence to this idea that we talked about about personhood for a river number one, we don't understand it. So that's far different thing than what we're talking about right here. This is human stuff, human stuff. And we barely even understand some of those things. I mean, we understand them like seemed like per generation, we understand certain things but things evolve. And I think and let me know let me know from your knowledge of these of your ways and of your people was there was there a lot of evolution in prehistoric times of that social order that does the human humaneness. They means.

Aaron Brien:

Well, okay, so that's that's a that's a tricky one, because that's acting under the assumption that I know that.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah, that's an important statement. That's an important statement. So keep going. What's the next tricky thing about?

Aaron Brien:

So the next tricky thing is that prior to the horse, we know that cultural evolution happened it probably happened quite a bit slower. And then when the horse came, it ramped everything up, right?

Shandin Pete:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

So so. Yeah. And really, from the time of the horse to now is only a couple 100 years. So you figured amount of culture, cultural evolution to happen and to 250 years, 300 years, that's my, that's a lot. There's a lot. That's like a lot of change in that in the fact that we're still here. And we kind of still have a pretty basic understanding of who we are. That's pretty remarkable. Yeah, it's pretty remarkable. And in fact, that there's ceremonies that exists where those objects are holding, or they're using come from the time before that. That's nuts, man, that's so wild. So while I

Shandin Pete:

say it, man,

Aaron Brien:

I mean

Shandin Pete:

it is, it is and this this was, this was the thing, I thought if I if I if somebody asked me that question just now, like, Okay, what about, you know, you know, pretty history, all that in, you know, I've come to evolve. And as getting older, you know, as a young man, you always think, oh, yeah, I had the past and all these cool things about the past. But you really start to evolve into understanding what right now is really, really super important. And I guess understanding about those past things is also important. But then I think,

Aaron Brien:

yeah,

Shandin Pete:

go ahead. Go ahead. Say

Aaron Brien:

dude, dude, I'm gonna say it. Like, I know that we now we look back at our past and we say like, those were the people, those were the people. But I guarantee you, the individuals that have kept culture alive and kept their identity life now have done good, far more.

Shandin Pete:

What do you mean, in what way?

Aaron Brien:

They didn't have to negotiate what we're gonna go?

Shandin Pete:

Oh, yeah.

Aaron Brien:

The last one in the last 100 years? Yeah. 125 years. Right. Yeah, the people are that they're only competition was their own way of life. Right? Yeah, right.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Yes. It could be violent. There was no tribal war, there was disease. Those things are negotiating now. We're negotiating not only all the dysfunction, and all the badass stuff that society brings, like iPhones and yeah, can nano mics and bicycles and yummy dude, like, it's just so much stuff is so much stuff that tells us not inadvertently tells us not to be who we are.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Find a way to still make things work, man. Yeah, that is crazy. To me.

Shandin Pete:

It is. It's remarkable. And so what I was thinking is if somebody asked me that question, sometimes I think now I wonder what it is. But then the bigger part of me thinks, Well, who cares? Because that, that time is over. Not Not, not as it you know, who cares? Let go of the past. But right now, man, we're operating in the now. In The Now?

Aaron Brien:

No, you're right. Who cares?

Shandin Pete:

12,000 years ago? What? What? Who cares? Who cares?

Aaron Brien:

I mean, okay, yeah, I get what you're saying. Yeah, ultimately, we do care. But really, we don't care. Like so. I mean, we care but we don't care. Yeah. So as a preservation officer, of course, that's my job. I have to care. You have to care. But as an individual, my job is still dealing with the now.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah,

Aaron Brien:

right now.

Shandin Pete:

Yes. So the laws, the things that you have the right policy you guide is for the now. It's not for the 200 years ago, it's for the now. So this idea of

Aaron Brien:

I like this conversation?

Shandin Pete:

I do I do, because this is what I've been thinking about. And it's all related to how we represent ourselves on a daily basis. So you represent your ways and your thoughts in a unique situation, your home, but you're navigating in this world of federal and state, tribal policy, right. That's what you do. That's, that's the nature of your work. I'm sitting here in an academic institution. And I'm navigating the same kinds of things and kind of laws and those kinds of stuff, but not on not on that level. But I'm navigating these these weird layers of, of academic understanding of, of pretty much about Indian things. And I have to try to guide the thought and the ideas about Indian things into what matters. And there's this, there's always this backward slip of, well, what did your ancestors do? And I'm not saying that's not that's not shouldn't be an important thing. But it's like trying to place a process from even 50 years ago and to to now is difficult. So when you're looking back into a time when the economy was functioning, where we aren't in a capitalistic, neoliberal whatever, we're the academics. We're not we're that's, that's, we're in today, man. So. So that's where the challenge is. That's where the the academic challenges and it seems like that's kind of where the challenge is, is in your work? Is, is navigating the need the tribal need of today, in this weird tribal government that you have this weird tribal government all tribes have. But we always get this question. And you hear it now. And I bet you're gonna hear it tomorrow. Something about the past? Well, what about the payer reminds me of power highway, remember? He goes visits his auntie or is it is great. And he auntie, tell me about the old days or something. And she's like, everybody's always coming here asking for Google Indian wisdom. When God doesn't.

Aaron Brien:

Love that. That lady's hairs to go to?

Shandin Pete:

Do you remind me of that, that that fed up person like, okay, it's over. It's gone. All that stuff you want to know, it's over? I mean, sure. We want to know it. And we want to try to still retain a lot of those things for today. But, man, we got to we got some work to do about the problems of today. We're not worried about what we don't know from the past. I don't know, man. No, I don't know. I don't know if that's fully characterize in my thoughts. So last clip, you ready? Then we'll wrap?

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it.

Shandin Pete:

Here it is. Ready?

Aaron Brien:

Ready.

Shandin Pete:

He's ready.

Aaron Brien:

Ready? Ready.

Shandin Pete:

Man, I don't know. So this is the thing, what you just said. And it's important. You're just talking about Aaron. And I don't want you know, like I said, you know, you got to support what we have. And the people who try hard and you can't criticize nobody. But we have to be cautious and move forward in in a manner that's going to benefit. What, what is important. And sometimes I think this is my thought is we can get a little too performative. Okay, so this is the thing. This is where we stand. And I think this is this might be a turning point in our future episodes, because I think we've been gentle. I think we've been gentle. On issues. This is Mina is not the recording and you know that right?

Aaron Brien:

Yep.

Shandin Pete:

Okay.

Aaron Brien:

I gotcha.

Shandin Pete:

We've been gentle. We have been that critical of things that we see. I mean, I don't think we have I don't think we've been critical. But that's got to change. It's got to change them or put some flute music in the background is that you get flooded with music in the background.

Aaron Brien:

Or you're starting to feel the gospel. Okay, go ahead. Yeah,

Shandin Pete:

I'm gonna put that in there. Because that's good on. Yeah. No, I think it's got to change. And I think we got it, we got to change the way in which we speak about things that matter to us. And some time, I think maybe we got to be a bit more vocal in a way and not sugarcoat some of our thoughts and ideas.

Aaron Brien:

I think that's true. And what I can already understand people. I mean, people will be like, well, we don't want you guys. I think that also I don't want you guys to give Yeah, we don't want you guys to get harsh. Oh, yeah. I think it's important to say that that criticism and that like we're not going to be nice that counts towards us too. I think we have to be critical to ourselves to like we

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, Uh, yeah,

Aaron Brien:

we we I don't know, man. Like, it's weird. I wouldn't say we lie. And we don't lie, obviously. You censor you censor what you're saying something?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do for sure.

Aaron Brien:

And I mean, it's a fact. It's a fact that we are to performative as Native people. We've somehow adopted this idea that in all things we do, we have to have an audience. And then for some, for some reason, we cater, we still cater to two non Indian people, which when I say that I think people, people assume that I mean, something like, I have something as white people. It's I don't, I just don't understand why native people don't put themselves first in their own stuff.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, No, I do. I do. I do know what you mean. That's like, when I go to work every day, I have to flip a switch. The code switch? To talk, certainly

Aaron Brien:

living in two worlds.

Shandin Pete:

Now, I don't I don't turn on the two worlds switch. That's for yeah, that's, that's like the that's like the panic button. You pull out the two worlds card. I don't get it. I live in two worlds. I'm sorry. I don't get it. I don't flip that switch. No, bye. What I'm wondering when there's truly dialogue, truly discussion that's of Indian things. You know, it, you're in it, and you feel the progress being made. And but I think one thing that's lacking in that, in that is, is our ability to criticize and to take criticism, and to take it as, as a positive thing. It's usually taken as, as a like, I'm trying to put you down or pull you down. And I and I think historically, it's been like that, that thought that oppressive thought that if you criticize somebody's work, well, they're instantly going to be on the defensive and say, Well, are you just trying to pull me down and you're not trying to support me? When in fact, maybe that was the intent is to say, well, I want to explore this idea. I'm going to argue against some things that you're saying. It's not a reflection of you. It's a reflection of us trying to advance forward.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, I think it's important for us and for our listeners to understand difference between hate and criticism.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

It's tough, man. I know. I'm a typical Indian Dude, where I've had to struggle with that whole idea of criticism and like, taking criticism and, man, it's it was It is tough. Sometimes it still is tough, you know, ideally, yeah. So but you have to You mean you have to? Yeah, you have to take it in order to grow. It's just sucks.

Shandin Pete:

Desperation in that

Aaron Brien:

good at everything. Drinking Pepto

Shandin Pete:

ulcers are acting up.

Aaron Brien:

You also, what's it also?

Shandin Pete:

I have no idea just what everybody says. Some in the stomach sore in the stomach. Maybe? I don't know.

Aaron Brien:

Damn peptides good.

Shandin Pete:

Is Born as a kid is. Tablets. The mobile tablet?

Aaron Brien:

Oh,

Shandin Pete:

yeah, it was like candy. Start eating those can't stop.

Aaron Brien:

When we used to. We used to go to IHS dental and they would give us toothpaste. Tasted like It tastes like candy. We'd like just squeeze the tooth.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, chapstick too was like that. Like candy is eat chapstick. You do that?

Aaron Brien:

Oh, do Yeah, I remember eating glue dude.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah. Nice. Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

I also remember I used to love sniffing plate clay, like clot and class and give me a clay. Mr. Clay man, I used to just put that on my nose and just take a deep breath. Sometimes, sometimes I wish. You know when people say oh, they don't have no regrets or they wouldn't do anything over I think that's a Yeah. Why a lot of stuff. There's a lot of stuff I do over

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, there is one.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, there's quite a bit but one thing that I do I liked I liked school when I was young.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, me too.

Aaron Brien:

In school. I remember like looking forward to going to school. Yeah. And actually, I'd probably do that over again that like second to like fourth or fifth grade that Yeah. Oh, dude, that was the best. It was the bonus

Shandin Pete:

was the way it was an escape for me. You know, I was like, Dad at Yeah, crazy, crazy home life. You know,

Aaron Brien:

there was some of that too. For me. I don't think it was as bad as my neighbors and everything you know, but yeah, I remember. I mean. Yeah, I remember people like that was the only meal they got, you know?

Shandin Pete:

Yeah.

Aaron Brien:

Yeah, didn't get yelled at didn't get cigarettes. Yeah, you know, things are rough for people. And I remember. That's why I always remembered like, growing up and thinking like I had it pretty good. Looking back on it. I had a very typical reservation life. And like, what a lot of people would probably say is like, rough and all that, but it didn't feel that way. Because you're always comparing yourself to your neighbor. You know,

Shandin Pete:

I know. I know. There's always a neighbor. That just got it.

Aaron Brien:

Or like always to hear you're complaining about your life and then your mom's taking care of your cousins. I know. Well, obviously they had that they have something worse, you know, so yeah, you got cousins living with you or whatever. Even there was always like that reality check in your living room.

Shandin Pete:

Man, it's so stereotypical, but it's true.

Aaron Brien:

It's true.

Shandin Pete:

It's true, man. It's not even a stereotype. It's true. It is true. Yeah. Well, let's wrap it up there, man,becau se

Aaron Brien:

I got off track there at the end.

Shandin Pete:

No, that's good, though. Because that? I don't know. I just kind of I was winging it today. And I had some things but kind of went off the rails. But that's alright.

Aaron Brien:

We do our best work when we're winging.

Shandin Pete:

I think so too. Yeah. I got some I got some more building ideas. So let's keep going, man. We'll keep going. And liquid anguish get back to nothing. We should apply this dial up the criticism, do it. Yeah, he's still

Aaron Brien:

I still want to do the one. I want to do like a second part to that. Deaths practices stuff.

Shandin Pete:

Yeah, let's do it. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna pin you down to a time and you're just gonna have to just suck it up and do it, man. Yeah. All right. We're gonna do it. Okay. So coming up more on death.

Aaron Brien:

So, thank you. Alright, see you soon.

Shandin Pete:

Take it easy. All right. Thank you for tuning in. I want to take some time to thank some of our Patreon sponsors. We've got Mr. Lafave. Ryan Swanson, Mars, Xena, Ajay, Rachel holster, Todd Davis, Louise Erdrich, Jason Freon. And Mary Bobbitt. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for your continued contribution to help keep the show on the air and also want to take time to thank some of our past sponsors. We've had any Oast pitching in Thank you, thank you for your donation. And also, Brian carpenter additional thank you for pitching in and helping the show stay on the air

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Aaron Brien

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Shandin Pete

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