#54 - Fencepost Philosophy: Familial Boundaries Delineating Logic, Tradition and Belief.

Missing VHS tape and a burial board. 0:00
Slang phrases and their origins. 4:38
Cultural preservation, imposition, and ethnocentrism. 11:56
Conflicts within families due to differing beliefs and values. 20:35
Family dynamics and cultural preservation among Native American siblings. 26:01
Cultural loss and its impact on family dynamics and identity. 34:27
Cultural practices, family dynamics, and language revitalization. 42:17
Language and logic in indigenous communities. 49:22
Differences in logic and reasoning between individuals. 53:49
Cultural schemas and understanding Native American realities. 59:16

Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)

How to cite this episode (apa)
Pete, S. H., & Brien, A. (Hosts). (2024, April 18). #54 - Fencepost Philosophy: Familial Boundaries Delineating Logic, Tradition and  [Audio podcast episode]. In Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast. Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://www.buzzsprout.com/953152/14644168

How to cite this podcast (apa)
Pete, S. H., & Brien, A. (Hosts). (2020–present). Tribal Research Specialist:The Podcast [Audio podcast].  Tribal Research Specialist, LLC. https://tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com

Podcast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tribal-research-specialist-the-podcast/id1512551396
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/1H5Y1pWYI8N6SYZAaawwxb
Twitter: @tribalresearchspecialist
Facebook: www.facebook.com/TribalResearchSpecialist
YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UCL9HR4B2ubGK_aaQKEt179Q
Website: www.tribalresearchspecialist.com

Transcript

Aaron Brien: 0:00

Look at this.

Shandin Pete: 0:01

You had a box it Oh, you got old drumstick and looks like it's like an old flathead drumstick that's old Oh, that's a little dry lake. Yeah. John John special or what?

Aaron Brien: 0:18

Double John's

Shandin Pete: 0:19

double John he pulled that out of the box at diabetes Fun Run T shirts that didn't give it out didn't get given out all the mediums all the mediums enlarges what's what is it? I can't see it. It's a Sundance. Oh, somebody stole from the library. The archives in Billings Sundance VHS they're looking for that ain't

Aaron Brien: 0:46

getting him back Yeah, I recorded I recorded VH one music videos over

Shandin Pete: 0:59

it's a Betamax she got there. You got a conference your classic conference bad yeah. That's where is that? I can't see it. What's on this?

Aaron Brien: 1:13

Oh, this is the mod the Phoenix one just recently. Title is Erin crow Tribal Historic Preservation Officer and assists tribal member

Shandin Pete: 1:21

Oh yeah. That's the one you should have change it to medicine man.

Aaron Brien: 1:24

I know I asked him and

Shandin Pete: 1:28

Aaron Britton medicine man. In Britain, just remember. Remember a member a remember? me remember what she said? Yeah. I'm feeling rundown man. Run down. There's a limit. You know.

Aaron Brien: 1:54

I don't know what I'm doing here.

Shandin Pete: 1:55

Come on, man.

Aaron Brien: 1:57

Pull in a good way. Shoot.

Shandin Pete: 2:01

Plug your mic in. A good way.

Aaron Brien: 2:03

In a good way. Yeah. Good. Like Yeah.

Shandin Pete: 2:33

Do you smudge the adapter? Or what part of the mic would you smudge where you tuck into or where you plug in?

Aaron Brien: 2:41

That's a great question. Let's

Shandin Pete: 2:42

not talk about smudging, man. Oh,

Aaron Brien: 2:44

dude, I got that.

Shandin Pete: 2:48

We beat it up. Good. I was trying to get you on a funny but you were turning. Something's wrong with you yesterday. Something was wrong with you. That's all right, though. We have our days. We do. Yeah. That's good to document them. Mama. Mama. Mama said. Remember, see? Um, you know, I've got a lot on my mind. workwise of tennis. I'm trying to pull out of it. Get ready for the weekend of nothingness. You know, it just shit together. Carol. I know what do you just have all your stuff thrown in a box?

Aaron Brien: 3:35

And here you go.

Shandin Pete: 3:39

He took all your stuff and he just wiped it or dumped it in a box.

Aaron Brien: 3:44

That's That's my podcast box. Man.

Shandin Pete: 3:46

I just leave it set up is in no way. Well, I

Aaron Brien: 3:49

did. Oh, no, actually, you're right. You're right.

Shandin Pete: 3:53

Yeah, no. Yeah. Sleeve it set up man. Could be in a juvenile.

Aaron Brien: 4:01

Yeah. So how long are we going to do this tonight? Is this go on now get with it.

Shandin Pete: 4:06

For you. However, when done not that I'm just sitting here patiently waiting

Aaron Brien: 4:12

as this tradition. During the podcast, yeah, you eat. You eat. What about popcorn? No.

Shandin Pete: 4:25

Where's my pop? Oh, man, you've got issues. Come on, man. Yeah. Yeah. So we're, um, we're sort of at the mid.

Aaron Brien: 4:37

I feel a bit more. Alarmingly.

Shandin Pete: 4:40

You seen it? Yeah. You're somewhat depressed. I was I was contemplating calling the sheriff to do a welfare check on you. Actually, through the night. But I didn't. I didn't I figured you're, you're an adult. You'll make it. It'd be fun. line. Sheriff call the sheriff you said I was going to call the sheriff from having come to a welfare check on you after the last episode.

Aaron Brien: 5:08

I appreciate that.

Shandin Pete: 5:12

Well, you would appreciate it if I would have done it. But I didn't.

Aaron Brien: 5:17

You know, I had a three hour long zoom meeting today.

Shandin Pete: 5:22

Actually bored. Actually, you know what, actually, those are. Those zoom meetings are becoming a real chance to catch up on some things because you don't have to really, like completely engage. No, I am, especially if you're not the main person. Yeah. It

Aaron Brien: 5:41

was. It's the Montana burial board and I cleaned kind of, you know, tried to clean up and clean laundry. I got out the old glass cleaner. Some picture frames. Yeah,

Shandin Pete: 6:01

man. Yeah. Show off. That's okay, man. You got I mean, you gotta, you gotta have some pride, you know? Gotta have some pride.

Aaron Brien: 6:12

That God damn self esteem if

Shandin Pete: 6:16

it if he ain't gonna have pride for anything. Well, it ought to be a burial board, you know?

Aaron Brien: 6:22

Yeah, you shouldn't. We should appoint you to the man.

Shandin Pete: 6:26

No, I don't need to be appointed to any more things.

Aaron Brien: 6:29

You need more.

Shandin Pete: 6:31

I'm up to my gills and things. Alright, so we're thinking, what? Wait, what does that mean? I'm up to my gills. It's a reference to a fish, their neck high. Heels or near the neck? What fish is that fish are never up to the gills in anything. They're always water there. But they're never up to the gills. They're always over their gills. That don't make sense.

Aaron Brien: 7:02

They're over there. But they're over their gills with joy. Don't know.

Shandin Pete: 7:10

I don't get it. Don't get it. No, you know what I did? You know, I'm doing well what I've done slowly. I'm slowly compiling a list of, of, you know, like sayings like we just had that that used to be in the old time days. Yeah, because I saw I'll talk to my kids and I'll say, Hey, you better get on the ball, man. And they're like, Well, what? What ball should I get on? And I'm like, yeah, why don't we say that? We in a circus? Went circus animals or you gotta get your act together. We ain't stage actors. We're not thespians. What? Why? Why would why would we do that? So what's another one? Oh, that was a good one to get your act together. Get on the ball. What's the other one? There's more. There's more. Let me think I'm thinking because I use

Aaron Brien: 8:15

get get squared away. Yeah, get

Shandin Pete: 8:17

squared away. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. What does that mean? I use them. I'll use them in class. My classes sometimes. And I have a high number of international students. Well, they have no

Aaron Brien: 8:31

idea. They're all international.

Shandin Pete: 8:34

Whoa, whoa. Whoa, we got woke Aaron today. Oh, dare I say decolonial Aaron? No, no, no, the colonize decolonize they're resilient. They're he calling me out. He called me out on my my colonial talk anyway. Yeah, I don't know. What's the thing there's this thing that

Aaron Brien: 9:03

you're not playing a song?

Shandin Pete: 9:05

Oh, yeah. Let's do that. Yeah, here's here's here's a good one here that I have queued up to I got it queued up on China. Let's see okay, I got it. Listen to this man. We're not playing on boring ass. What huh? What did you say? Nothing. Playing no boring you know what I did? I didn't Oh, here we go. Yeah, okay, listen to this man. This is a familiar sound should be pushed you weren't alive. In these times. I was key

Aaron Brien: 10:00

Have you noticed some yeah

Shandin Pete: 10:11

there's this there's mostly songs during this time have that that start that really speeds up but it isn't just last year I didn't do it. It's hit like ramps up. And by the end they're just they're cooking

Aaron Brien: 10:27

I mean, I would know because you're talking over the song. Okay.

Shandin Pete: 10:33

Listen, listen. Here we go me slamming

Aaron Brien: 11:25

Yeah, believe that slam it

Shandin Pete: 11:26

slam it that's

Aaron Brien: 11:30

notes from over this way

Shandin Pete: 11:31

has over your neck of the woods there Crow Fair night. 1976

Aaron Brien: 11:36

That's a classic tune that song. That song. Still some people sing that song.

Shandin Pete: 11:42

Yeah, that song. That's what you don't need the origin of it. Anything? No,

Aaron Brien: 11:50

no. Yeah, it's definitely that from that time. I bet that must be in the late 60s.

Shandin Pete: 11:56

Yeah, a lot of songs like that. Now, I guess you know what, I don't know if there's been a revival in that where people while some people do Yeah, they say oh, that's so on. So song. You know, maybe not individual, but they know what group sings it. You're sort of in the in crowd and you know, who composed it but

Aaron Brien: 12:19

when a lot of people finds lately,

Shandin Pete: 12:23

tape finds Z Now if your mic was like that, your audio sounds good, man. Somebody keep it like this. That's why I bought you that mic RMC could just gotta go over to your storage and get it. I

Aaron Brien: 12:39

don't. I don't want to conform.

Shandin Pete: 12:43

Okay, all right. Anyways, tell me. Okay, fine. Tape. So even finding tapes were at the

Aaron Brien: 12:52

general, just in general people listen to old tapes, and they'll say I heard the song on this tape or tape. They call that a tape.

Shandin Pete: 12:59

Fine. Okay, gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Good. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I got curious once and I thought wonder if anybody's sells old, like old recordings or power recordings, you know? So I looked up on eBay course nothing. But scoured the internet. Nothing. Big crane. Oh, yeah. Probably has a treasure trove of hourly power.

Aaron Brien: 13:26

Who's gonna afford haul guy to remember? Yeah, well, yeah.

Shandin Pete: 13:29

I'm assuming he has some regional regional sounds. But yeah, I thought that I thought would be nice to get a hold of somebody's collection and they just tired of it and want to get rid of it. Before you know, it goes to the junk pile. I don't know. I got a lot of tapes. I'm still working on this. I'm sitting right next to about 30 tapes. I still got to digitize and throw up on the YouTube channel. It's labor. And I got a box of about probably about 40 reel to reels. i They're long, too. I recorded one onto my computer and took three hours. Three hours. That's awesome. No, man. No. Yeah, that yeah, it is. It's like three hours of music. You don't hear no more. You're

Aaron Brien: 14:21

doing like real work. That's like real. That's like real preservation archival work. It

Shandin Pete: 14:28

is. Yeah. And I'm not getting paid for it. It's Labor love, man. labor of love.

Aaron Brien: 14:35

Yeah. And I'm on 40 album that

Shandin Pete: 14:37

up. 40 Yeah. And I'm trying to share it with everybody. I put it on YouTube, so everybody will share it with the world. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing. One of the, probably one of the characteristics of, of our cultural ways that sort of a negative set. We feel like a need to hoard hoard things. We've talked about it before, the roots of the roots of it. What I'm curious what's this? What I'm curious about? Is there is there an opposite instead of hoarding, like you're imposing? Oh,

Aaron Brien: 15:25

like, is yourself imposing is if there's that, but I definitely there's people who give too much culturally. Right. Are they too generous?

Shandin Pete: 15:36

Yeah. Yeah. Do gender.

Aaron Brien: 15:38

I think there's, there's, there's a, there's a happy medium that needs to occur.

Shandin Pete: 15:43

Sure. Sure. I was thinking more while I was thinking on the

Aaron Brien: 15:48

lines of talking about giving it to white people. Oh, no, no, no. Oh, yeah. And yeah, that happens. I don't think you can be too generous with your own people when it comes to. Well, Jim things but Well, that's

Shandin Pete: 16:00

it. I'm curious about because I think I think there is

Aaron Brien: 16:04

Oh, nice. I think I was inside.

Shandin Pete: 16:07

I think there is but not not in the way that you're thinking about it. Because you're thinking about cultural knowledge of tradition and custom.

Aaron Brien: 16:17

Yeah, I guess that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking

Shandin Pete: 16:19

about the imposition of a way of thinking that's not of the norm. So you know, that, you know, the ideology. Yeah. You know, the people that come knocking on your door and they hand you those little pamphlets, awake.

Aaron Brien: 16:39

Watchtower,

Shandin Pete: 16:42

and watchtower.

Aaron Brien: 16:45

Why are we attacking them? What? Well,

Shandin Pete: 16:47

I'm not attacking them. I'm not attacking them. I'm saying that they're, they're spreading the word right. spread into Oh,

Aaron Brien: 16:53

I see what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah.

Shandin Pete: 16:56

So I'm curious about inter inter family, sort of impositions? You know, there's that one. You have that one cousin, or the one brother says, You should do it this way, while you're doing it that way. Where they're, then they take it to the next level where they're imposing some sort of I don't know spiritual practice on you just

Aaron Brien: 17:21

described me. I'm that.

Shandin Pete: 17:28

Why you doing it that way? You should do it this way. Why you

Aaron Brien: 17:30

do it? You should do it this way. That's the right way. It's

Shandin Pete: 17:33

the right way.

Aaron Brien: 17:36

I feel a bit of tax. Well, I

Shandin Pete: 17:39

know you need it. You got to center yourself. Yeah. So this idea? Yeah. I've been on both

Aaron Brien: 17:45

sides of that deal, where I've been the person who's imposed a belief or our practice on somebody. Yeah. But I've also been the person where it's been, you know, put on me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it can be. It's an inconvenience. But I guess.

Shandin Pete: 18:06

Would you call that ethnocentric? If it's something inside your own ethnic domain?

Aaron Brien: 18:15

I don't know if that's a centrism. Is it?

Shandin Pete: 18:17

I don't know. If you go if you go on sort of the definition. What

Aaron Brien: 18:24

do you remember that word we used to throw around long time ago it was called archeology. Do you remember that?

Shandin Pete: 18:32

Ark? tautology?

Aaron Brien: 18:37

learned this from you octal ology.

Shandin Pete: 18:39

I never heard of it. He's saying it right. Oh, you mean on tautology? No.

Aaron Brien: 18:51

That I can't remember. This is years ago, man. This is. Shawn Dean word. Ark. Remember that podcast where you said a word underlying magistrate? Yeah,

Shandin Pete: 19:04

no, not overlapping magisteria Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 19:09

That's crazy, dude. Like how you know that stuff? underlined with non overlapping non

Shandin Pete: 19:17

overlapping magisteria

Aaron Brien: 19:22

magisteria. Remember, oh, because I kept thinking of magistrate. Well,

Shandin Pete: 19:28

that's the root that's the root you know, the magistrate is sort of like the like the set of rules or whatever. can keep going. I don't know what to talk about. otology I know ontology, which is you know, everybody tosses that word around quite a bit just sort of like

Aaron Brien: 19:46

you're floating right here. Your foundation

Shandin Pete: 19:49

of your reality or what have you, you know, what you believe to be real and true. Yeah, pathology. I don't know ontology is I don't know. But get tend to get through Point derailing me you're reeling me. So keep looking it up I don't know what I don't know is

Aaron Brien: 20:05

where I can't find it. Maybe it's not ontology because you I remember we had a conversation about this

Shandin Pete: 20:14

mock tautology

Aaron Brien: 20:16

and no idea I'm thinking see that wrong?

Shandin Pete: 20:21

Yeah you're I think so. Let's get back to this because I'm trying to get I'm trying to get to this point that you're trying to make in a roundabout on technology on technology

Aaron Brien: 20:35

on it all Auntie are now it's loading sorry.

Shandin Pete: 20:42

What is going on with the cellular man?

Aaron Brien: 20:47

Horrible the service sucks here man. Yeah. Agreed. O o n t o l o g gy. That's the word.

Shandin Pete: 20:58

Ontology. Ana ontology. Yeah. O N to logy. Ontology. All right, man.

Aaron Brien: 21:12

Here, right. Okay. Yeah. I can you just edit this whole part?

Shandin Pete: 21:17

No, it's saying stay in. I'll do some with it. Yeah, study of existence reality. What is real anyway? Dang it. Okay. This is what I'm trying to say. All right,

Aaron Brien: 21:32

go ahead. mute me. No,

Shandin Pete: 21:34

yeah. This way, you get this way, man. Do it this way? I don't know. So what I'm what I'm trying to get to is this. There's times when the beliefs in the family serve as a wedge to separate the core values and beliefs of that family, even if they're of the same sort of ethnic belief systems. I don't know if that that kind of why kind of tucked in a circle there. So there's always that one, there's always that so in the family, there's always that one who just all sudden, they become Ultra traditions, you know, become Ultra to this. And then they they're trying to get everybody else to be all Judis, you know? And then there might be another one who's sort of following the fall on the word of the Lord, you know, and then there's some division.

Aaron Brien: 22:44

What are you doing right now?

Shandin Pete: 22:45

And then there's another one who's just wants to be a res res Dude,

Aaron Brien: 22:49

why are you coming at me? Like? I feel a pack.

Shandin Pete: 22:54

You should? Because I might describe in your family or what?

Aaron Brien: 22:59

Yeah. You're ascribing your family? I

Shandin Pete: 23:04

know. Yeah. Well, yeah. The standard is a thing. And then there's the one who's sorted doesn't care about going Ultra dish does not concern with the Bible and the church. They just got a good tribal job, and they're just trying to keep it and you know, have a good time on the weekends every now and then. And I don't want it they don't want to learn how to build a sweat house and go sacrifice and do all these things. They just they don't want to do any of those things. They don't they're done. My reading your diary.

Aaron Brien: 23:38

My date my dream journal.

Shandin Pete: 23:44

Some dreams. Okay.

Aaron Brien: 23:45

Okay, what about this? So you have families, whether they be immediate, or are just one removed in terms of extended families? Yeah. Where you have competitive beliefs. Yeah. So so what I've noticed in the last 30 years of, of practitioners culture is that preservation in itself, Heritage Preservation and the way people preserve culture has created wedges, even within families. Because you have people who might be it's typically what I've seen. Christian versus native,

Shandin Pete: 24:28

right. Okay. So,

Aaron Brien: 24:32

we'll see. Like, people who take on the beliefs of their, their own people are in direct conflict with like a sibling or even their parents. You know, as culture as culture dwindles, is that means you have these pockets of people that are participants in culture But there's no rhyme or reason for their participation. Because then 60 years ago, you could guess by families, right? You could say this family is a traditional family. So it was that way for generations. But now it's not that way you might have what used to be considered a traditional family. None of those younger people practice anything. Right? And vice versa. Right. But then that's the clear. That's like the real clear and obvious thing.

Shandin Pete: 25:32

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 25:35

But over the last couple of years, I've noticed there's a change. There's, like, division in families, like even new killer families or siblings and stuff, you know? Yeah.

Shandin Pete: 25:47

Why, though? Is the same reasons you're talking about?

Aaron Brien: 25:52

Religion or Matt? I? Yeah. What religion, typically religion? And.

Shandin Pete: 26:00

Okay. Well, that makes sense. I mean, this just makes sense.

Aaron Brien: 26:06

I mean, you look at like your own family. Right. You say? I would say overall, your family is native. Their beliefs are native. But even within that, there's like, clear differences. Yeah, there is not only an in depth of knowledge. Yeah. But like interpretation of knowledge.

Shandin Pete: 26:27

Yeah. To that detail. Yes. Yes. Because, unfortunately, I don't know if it's just I wouldn't say it's unfortunate. And it might just be a normal part of sort of just cultural evolution in a way. But yeah, there's, there's, there's some agreement on things. And then there's some things that there just isn't agreement on, and then probably never be agreement on. And maybe there never has been.

Aaron Brien: 26:53

Well, I don't I mean, I think overall, yeah, there's hasn't been like uniformity. Yeah. But it's also very common, like, say, you're a good example, because you have like a lot of brothers, or you know, what, three brothers? Yeah. Let's say it's 100 years ago, you guys typically will learn for the most part, your foundation is going to be from the same source. Right? And then as you get older, you'll go and do your own thing. Yeah. But now, we live in a timeline. Where a sibling? Oh, that's usually family related, right? Yes. An extended family. Now. Like, say I, I learned a lot from people I'm not related to at all. Yeah. So that also means you take on some of the beliefs of that family.

Shandin Pete: 27:48

Of the one that you're learning from, that you're learning

Aaron Brien: 27:51

from, which might be a different vibe than, than your own. Yeah, direct family. And I was wondering if there was a way to study that, like, a way so we always look at preservation, and culture loss. That is like that's just to clear things, but we don't look at it. My noodley words. It's in groups and even within those groups that you have factions and beliefs. And yeah, in that you can have a family that's divided. Like there's crow families, that one sibling speaks Crow and the other doesn't, and they're raised in the same home. Yeah, yeah. Or you can have someone who's a practitioner of the religion of grow people, and their sibling is devoutly Pentecostal. Yeah. Raised in the same home. Yeah. So there's no spiritual uniformity. So that means when you're like a family gathering can be a little more convoluted. Yeah, yeah. opposed to just being like okay, let's just do this you know? Yeah,

Shandin Pete: 28:57

yeah, let's let's do a prayer circle for Thanksgiving and then Christmas will smudge this Christmas tree.

Aaron Brien: 29:05

So why quit it with the smoke?

Shandin Pete: 29:07

Yeah, okay, good. Well, we'll quit so Quaife the Christmas chain

Aaron Brien: 29:13

I've never heard that word in my life.

Shandin Pete: 29:15

Quaife

Aaron Brien: 29:21

What are you doing? We're from assisted I know,

Shandin Pete: 29:29

buddy. That's why I said it was funny. Nobody says that. It's weird

Aaron Brien: 29:36

honor. Oh Scott mamady died. Then I'm honored Scott mamady

Shandin Pete: 29:43

disease. Did he say that?

Aaron Brien: 29:44

I don't know. No, it just sounds like a mama D word but a Quaife

Shandin Pete: 29:48

Quaife the turtle shell with the sacred leaves. Stop. Don't I didn't say it. Did not say it. Okay, back to this thing. Because this word, it isn't a word yet. Almost needs a sensor. Almost Hey, you

Aaron Brien: 30:09

remember that video you made of us talking where you just beat random stuff? Yeah, it

Shandin Pete: 30:15

was a good one. Marty. It was a Martin was on an episode. And yeah, I put a beat sensor sound every time somebody said, indigenous or something like that I did. And

Aaron Brien: 30:29

it sounds crazy. It sounds like your cousin. Which we do custom, or I do you don't very much. No. So the My question is, how can you say that? And how would it benefit? How would it benefit people?

Shandin Pete: 30:46

Yeah, I don't I don't know about the benefit? Well, there's got to be a benefit. How would you study it? Yeah, I mean, you'd have to really dive into dive into the areas in which those those folks are raised. Because you know how it is. It's just like any family dynamic. The oldest one gets all the attention. The middle child gets nothing. And then the baby gets you know, everything the leftover, everything leftover, they get all they get the dying, the dying last wishes of the parents. Actually,

Aaron Brien: 31:19

this is what I'll say. In Indian families. The oldest gets all the attention. The youngest gets all the freedom.

Shandin Pete: 31:25

There it is. That's kind of the word. I was looking for it because he doesn't necessarily

Aaron Brien: 31:29

mean they're gonna get things. But yeah, just like free to go do it.

Shandin Pete: 31:35

I mean, the oldest one could have got the belt, you know, and then the youngest never ever gets the belt.

Aaron Brien: 31:43

It's what the oldest one gets all the Kool Aid, you know, it gets the first the first dream come. True families men, the oldest boy or the boy like

Shandin Pete: 31:53

yeah, spoiled, rotten.

Aaron Brien: 31:55

Spoiled, rotten, man.

Shandin Pete: 31:57

Awful. All this. They're the oldest in the family. Awful. I can say that. Because I'm not I'm not the oldest and the weird of

Aaron Brien: 32:08

the mom the longer

Shandin Pete: 32:11

the biggest wiener but thing one. So stubborn. Like they will never change their ways. everyone

Aaron Brien: 32:18

owes them something. Wait, who's the oldest in your family? To Cheney?

Shandin Pete: 32:26

Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 32:29

And this is Johnny older.

Shandin Pete: 32:31

Yeah, yeah, he's all

Aaron Brien: 32:32

okay. All right. Yeah.

Shandin Pete: 32:35

I'm in the middle. Middle. I don't really know what the middle does not

Aaron Brien: 32:40

have your mom's kids.

Shandin Pete: 32:41

Yeah, yeah. Yes, sir.

Aaron Brien: 32:45

The agency road kids

Shandin Pete: 32:47

agency road kids. Yeah. You know what, I don't know about that. A thing you're talking about? I think the curious thing is probably the more curious thing is how within that set of siblings, ones can abandon tradition. readily. And I think it might be possibly influenced from a spouse that causes it. Because, you know, our spouses are highly, highly influential on on what we sort of our path we choose, you know, so I yeah, I would agree. Yeah. So I don't know if that's, that's it? Maybe, you know, maybe it's, I don't know why that's curious. Why aren't you

Aaron Brien: 33:42

you could make the argument that the spouse might be the most influential in adulthood, yet on especially on practices.

Shandin Pete: 33:51

I agree. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Someone to keep you from touching unclean things. If you will. Yeah, you know, don't touch the unclean things of the natives and come on. We've come out from among among them and be separated with the children of God

Aaron Brien: 34:25

what is this?

Shandin Pete: 34:27

I just, I'm just going I'm just letting it flow, man. I'm just letting it flow.

Aaron Brien: 34:31

Alright, let's change topics.

Shandin Pete: 34:32

But I should say I should say that No, I'm not against anybody believing in higher power, no man. They ought to if it fulfills your life and makes your life meaningful, you should. But the strange thing is you know you know, I don't know how many decades and generations have gone through the the influence of Christianity anti Catholicism and I would say only a small percent of natives have actually fully embraced the vibrant BORN AGAIN relationship with Jesus Christ.

Aaron Brien: 35:18

I don't know what you're talking about what what is going on here?

Shandin Pete: 35:27

No, I just was coming out I told you as I'm, I'm sort of a sort of a fence post today. Okay, I'll change topics

Aaron Brien: 35:38

don't ramble. Rambling Man. All right. Okay. Let's king of rambling. I know a ramble. But

Shandin Pete: 35:48

maybe it's my turn

Aaron Brien: 35:50

the Rambler today? Well, you got to edit it. So no, I'm not I'm just going to distance go on raw what's what is going on?

Shandin Pete: 36:08

What's wrong with you, man? Okay, let's get real it in. you reel it in. I'm not gonna be me. I'm way out here.

Aaron Brien: 36:15

I was trying to sound smart. You're over there equation things. That's an unfavorable, favorable things and looking what you do, and I don't know where you're at right now. You're talking in the metric system right now.

Shandin Pete: 36:32

All right, okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna recenter refocus. So let's say this, let's look at this. Okay, this will get us back. That

Aaron Brien: 36:41

was our that was the question. The overall question is that because of culture loss, culture dwindles. But in that because of the dwindling, it pops up and revitalizes itself in certain pockets. But those pockets aren't uniform. Like they were in the past, like, they're just straight across the board. People know stuff, people practice, windows, now it's popping up everywhere. So that also, that also means that those, those individuals are creating divisions and families based on culture. And I just don't think it's something people look at. They, we just kind of look at old preservation effort, everybody's learning culture, here's the second language learners, and they're praising that all of us are praising that, not knowing that it actually can create, like ideological differences in families, which can lead to like fractions, fractions, not fraction

Shandin Pete: 37:37

fractions.

Aaron Brien: 37:41

So that's how I was saying, okay,

Shandin Pete: 37:42

it can we're done with that. Oh, okay. Well, I had more to say, but that's fine. Oh, go ahead. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's just a reflection statements here, then I'm a fence post. Go. Now, let's

Aaron Brien: 37:54

say I want to hear your thoughts on

Shandin Pete: 37:58

this, the family unit that you just described, if I was to throw out a fancy, fancy word, it's like a microcosm of the tribal Unit. Today, today, yep. Yep. Because the thing you described, you could you could bundle that up in into any tribal group. And you see that same phenomenon, replicated from the family unit, and to the larger tribal unit divisions because of the loss of tradition and custom, the process of revival to fill that void by something. And that, that filling of the Void is uneven. And then there's, then there's pockets of people who attempt to revive or reclaim the traditions that were lost prior to the revival of certain traditions. Yeah, and then, yeah, among that, then you get, like set division, you get people saying, No, this is the right way. No, this is the right way. etc. We know that and I

Aaron Brien: 39:10

say it's even deeper than just like practices, like just saying, Oh, this is the way you should do this. I think it's it's a foundational thing. It's same man.

Shandin Pete: 39:19

Yeah. I mean, you could ask not. Yeah, it's not keep going. Look like that one muppet. You know, that one moped with the mouth as it's got. Yeah. It's got a little fuzzy head. Yeah. I couldn't cut. Yeah. So

Aaron Brien: 39:38

it's deeper than just ritual and practice. Like, yeah, I think that's that's not nearly as severe problem because what that would mean is that that foundation of those two people is built on the same thing. So they'll say, no, no, I practice it because of this reason I practice it because of this reason. Those reasons are different. And I'm talking about what those are built on are completely different. The foundation of, of families and individuals, no longer is the foundation uniformed. Like it was before. So you will get those first two generations of Christian people. Yep. Overall, their worldview is still native. Yeah. So like they're learning Christianity and the church from a certain perspective, right? Yeah. Now we're in a more in a place where we're 345 generations. Yeah. So now nowhere near them anymore as the foundation of native people.

Shandin Pete: 40:45

Okay. So

Aaron Brien: 40:46

people are learning cultures. And so what that means when you learn a culture secondary, it's learned at a different pace.

Shandin Pete: 40:56

Yeah. Yeah. So because you're playing catch up. Yeah, right, a different purpose,

Aaron Brien: 41:01

a different purpose. You're learning things faster, it's bunched up, there's kind of an anxiety that comes with it. And this is the if people probably don't ever talk about, but there's an anxiety that comes with learning culture, because you're trying to make up for lost time. And there's also a fear of messing up. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, where, like, if your foundation is that there's a comfort level to that. That's different. Yeah. And because I wasn't raised Ultra traditional, there are certain things that I have that anxiety with, there's certain things I don't because my foundation was built on that right. Mm hmm. But because of my like, it's like a muscle, because I chose to keep those. That foundation active, and like certain, maybe my siblings didn't. So my comfort level is different with it. Which also means that your, your stress with certain things is different. Your anxieties are certain your confidence with certain things is different. Your ideology is going to be different. Yeah, your motives or intent will be different. Because your foundation has a different source to it. We're like, some of my cousins. We were all raised together. They're not going to have that because as they got older, they didn't exercise that muscle, which we can say is culture, right? Heritage. Good. And they chose to do something else, whether that's the church or just reservation life, right. So their comfort level in those things is higher. Right, right. But you get what I'm saying? No, I

Shandin Pete: 42:43

do. I do. I do.

Aaron Brien: 42:45

So that means there's a complete ideological clash happening. If any of this makes sense. Blink your eyes. blinking? No. Okay. Just seems like that's more prevalent now. Yeah, yeah. And I'm ready

Shandin Pete: 42:59

to where was it? Where it wasn't, it wasn't what we think it wasn't. No, it wasn't. It was it was how do you know?

Aaron Brien: 43:07

No, it wasn't because your foundation was their foundation was built on the same thing?

Shandin Pete: 43:14

Yeah, I suppose. But what do you mean, he's talking? Like, okay, let me just let I'll let that one go. Because that's, yeah, no, no, I argue that it's silly to argue about it. Because that's like, that's like the nine year old response. But is it really? I was I You sure. I am. Sure. Wow.

Aaron Brien: 43:37

I'm totally

Shandin Pete: 43:39

sure. Oh, yeah. Sure.

Aaron Brien: 43:42

Cultures the spectrum.

Shandin Pete: 43:43

But how do you, sir, so told you that? I just get Okay. All right. No, no, there's some interesting things you said here, that I want to reflect back on that I wanted to argue, man, let's argue about it real quick, then. Okay. No, no, no, I'm serious. Let's do it. Okay. So a fuse claim that this phenomenon of people having a different foundational, cultural traditional structure did not exist in the past. So the claim is not correct me if I'm wrong. family back in, I don't know, let's let's pick a time period 200 years ago, that good 200 years ago, has the same foundation. They would have Yes, man. I think that's true. I think that's true. The family

Aaron Brien: 44:35

group would have had the same foundation. That doesn't mean in practice, they would have been different.

Shandin Pete: 44:43

Mm hmm.

Aaron Brien: 44:45

So the physical reaction of that ideology is ritual ceremony, right? So the interpretation of ceremony ritual, custom might be different, but the foundation is the same because they're arguing this In point, right, you get what I'm saying

Shandin Pete: 45:01

I do now. Yeah, I agree now. And that brings up one of my points that I have. So first, this was when you were talking about this about revival of cultural practices. I think the odd thing that happens in that whole dynamic you discussed is that revival becomes the practice. Not necessarily the practice serving the original purpose. Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

Aaron Brien: 45:33

And we, we kind of briefly talked about time. So that's a whole nother element. Those people 200 years ago, we're not

Shandin Pete: 45:40

negotiating. No, didn't need to know. Now,

Aaron Brien: 45:45

the idea of practice being a practitioner, now, sometimes it's for the simply just for the sake of preservation. Yeah.

Shandin Pete: 45:53

And that's, that's totally different. Totally, that puts that practice in a totally different tradition or a purpose, in a way, it hasn't quite sunk in with Greece now. hasn't quite found it. It's, it's in purpose and intent in modern society. The next point, okay. Okay, is that this phenomenon that happens, like I said, where there's sort of this internal family drift to different foundations, I see that happen when I'm gonna throw out another fancy term here, when the matriarch passes away, in the family, that's kind of kind of is the guide the gathering point of all these you know, siblings, maybe aunts and uncles, if you will, you know, you know, you know, those families will have that one person that they all meet at their house. They're all doing all these things together at that house, and that person passes away. Then the the family just kind of they, they sort of, they drift until they develop around another person, or thing. And

Aaron Brien: 47:00

I, I think that to use your word phenomenon didn't exist 200 years ago. That's a result of something today. That happened on my dad's family. When my grandma when his mother passed away. It it kind of crumbled the family unit. Yeah. On my mom's side, it was her dad. Hmm. And that unity has in they've never really recovered from it.

Shandin Pete: 47:28

Yeah. Yeah, that's happens. Yeah. And I think you're right. I don't Well, I don't know if you're right. It seems to be true that that kind of thing didn't happen in the past. Because he didn't.

Aaron Brien: 47:40

It didn't call the cultural competence was so different. If it's hard for people to understand that was different. It wasn't how strong it was because the police were so regimented. And they were so living, that the response to the response to like a death was far different than it is now. Yeah, yeah.

Shandin Pete: 48:03

far different. No, I think I kind of see that. I would somewhat challenge that. But I don't have no good. Good. I don't have a good allegory. To say, Well, what, okay, when I didn't want to, because

Aaron Brien: 48:19

there's, there's, there's, oh, shit.

Shandin Pete: 48:24

Okay. Let's see. Okay. Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 48:27

we're saving our last two podcasts with this conversation.

Shandin Pete: 48:30

What the last two are good. What are you talking about? arguable, okay. Yeah, so this, like this, I guess this point was related to some of the other ones. So nowadays, the argument, the argument that sort of splits families is often about things that we don't even practice. You know, you can see it like in language revitalization. Oh, we don't we don't talk like that. Well, we don't talk at all the language, you know, we are we shouldn't use cut off words. Well, we don't I don't even at a level that even decide whether we ought to use full or cut off awkward neck and go into any practice, you know, like, oh, yeah, you don't build a sweat house like that. Well, you don't even build a sweat town. So what what do you even

Aaron Brien: 49:21

get involved in? Yeah, that's actually a common argument here. Yes. People like learning crow. They'll say like, one time, okay. This is very common here. Okay. There's still a lot of people who speak crow. Yeah. But you'll have like levels of speaking, right. So like, people will come and they'll start talking to each other. Yeah. And then when that person leaves I've heard this a lot, man. Yeah. It's kind of backstabby kind of he in a way that moves girl even though say yeah, kind of mean girls. They don't speak, man. They don't speak good crow. They They're crows bad. But the whole they had they just had a whole conversation, Crow language and understood each other. So then I in my mind, from a non crow speaking person, I'm like, you're making that critique on someone you just had a conversation with? Yeah. And crow. So like,

Shandin Pete: 50:18

How bad are they? Yeah, you understood? Because

Aaron Brien: 50:21

you answered them. Yeah. So and people are getting picky because language is dying so fast that at the end of the day, would you rather have people speaking bad crow or No, crow?

Shandin Pete: 50:36

Yeah, yeah. And some people would say, No, no, CRO?

Aaron Brien: 50:39

Yeah, no, CRO,

Shandin Pete: 50:41

you ain't gonna do it right, then we'll just let it die. And

Aaron Brien: 50:43

then those people speak badass CRO and their kids don't recruit at all.

Shandin Pete: 50:53

The irony of all that. And here's the last point, this is this is one I've been thinking about quite often. And he sort of, you sort of turn the turn the light bulb on in my head, because I can see these two, these two pathways now. So consider the individual who's sort of a culturally knowledgeable person, you know, race, as traditional as you can in this day and age, you know, so they're competent, they're culturally competent in the traditions and customs of today. Then you have the person who has decided to go the other route. And they've taken on the traditions and customs of a different way. And the easy, you know, the easy one is, you know, the Christian or Catholic way, but you know, I don't want to pick on pick on that too much. Okay, so they decided a different path. So what you had said was, those are two different foundations of sort of belief, or what you'd say ontology, that's that word. These said, I was talking about two understandings of existence. Now that relies on them believing in that wholeheartedly without doubt, and skepticism, you know? Because if their skepticism then my next point doesn't really make sense. So my thought was in this thought, was sort of drifting around as part of me trying to understand this new age thing of indigenous research methodologies, you know, and that's got to rest on something. One really important point that I don't think is talked about enough. And that's the concept of logic. And how we deduce or induct a pattern of reasoning to figure things out. So, if you take those two people, and they both have two different foundations, it seems like they might come to a different conclusion via a logical route based in that foundation. So yeah, so then that is what you just said, Yeah. And that and that's what that's what causes sort of a division because one person can't even conceptualize their logical pathway because it's not even housed in their foundation. And the other one can't see the other ones point either, because their logics don't match. And I thought, yeah, I thought from from the get go years ago, I thought, well, you know, logic is logic. It's a human endeavor, and it can be different. I don't know if I, I fully believe that all the way. But I don't know if I have all the evidence to say, No, there's truly like an indigenous logic pattern.

Aaron Brien: 53:49

So I would say I would say there is there is because madness is badass.

Shandin Pete: 53:56

Okay, all right. And

Aaron Brien: 53:57

you're smart, dude. Okay, so, okay. Logic, logic in itself has a foundation. It's not as it's not a stunt standalone thing. And logic, in itself, is a human endeavor. Right? It's not an it's not necessarily a biological trait. Like Like, like how a tiger would hunt. That's instinctual. That's different. I think that is a different. Yeah, mechanism. Or

Shandin Pete: 54:31

it may be a different form of logic, but not not like we think of as

Aaron Brien: 54:37

Yeah, it's an obedient logic. One time my grandma said, the difference between us and animals is animals are obedient. They were commanded to do something one time and they've never veered from it. US we've constantly been in question. We've questioned it. Right? So our logic comes from a different foundation. So what you're saying is these worldviews these beliefs. stumps create a different foundation, which then creates a different accounting of the world.

Shandin Pete: 55:04

Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 55:06

Which Your logic is an accounting of something? Yeah,

Shandin Pete: 55:12

yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 55:13

That's what I was trying to say you said it better than me. But that's that was the whole question. My question was that this division that's created, maybe that's it. It's a division of logic, like what how people are explaining their existence, explain their endeavors, their negatives, their positives, everything comes from that. So then you have this division and families. It's not simply a division of practice. Yeah, it goes deeper. It's deeper. Yeah. And I'm seeing that I see it. Yeah. Yeah. And they're both right. That's the thing based on their foundation. They're both right.

Shandin Pete: 55:56

Well, yeah, I mean,

Aaron Brien: 55:58

and that's where the problem is. That's the problem is they're both right. So how are you going to tell this person in terms of preservation and an understanding native worldview? Like, how are you going to tell that person? They're wrong? Because based on their foundation, yeah. And their reasoning? Yeah. What is that deductive reasoning? Is that?

Shandin Pete: 56:22

Yeah, yeah. That's one of one of the patterns of, of logic.

Aaron Brien: 56:25

Okay. Based on that, that's, that's, that's hatched from a different age, you know?

Shandin Pete: 56:33

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What? What do you say? No, you didn't say nothing. I'm just I'm contemplating. I'm contemplating because your fence posted me right now. I am, because I'm thinking deeply about this. Because I mean, then this goes back to this goes back to the same argument that well, maybe there isn't different logic. There's just different foundations, which would lead to a different ontology are different. The only

Aaron Brien: 57:10

reason somebody would say there's that there's make that argument is because they're saying that from their own foundation

Shandin Pete: 57:22

he's What do you are you like, Dennis? Reverse psychology? me what's going on? The only reason you'd say that is because it's your foundation. It's yours. Dude,

Aaron Brien: 57:31

I'm telling you bad.

Shandin Pete: 57:32

So you don't get me? Because it's my foundation?

Aaron Brien: 57:35

No, I would say our foundation. There's some art closer. No, yeah, I agree. I have you and I have a stronger Cultural Foundation that then I have with some of my first cousins or people I was raised with. Yeah. Yeah. And there's just things we're never going to see. I you know,

Shandin Pete: 57:52

yeah. So I think so this is what what will my thought was when you're saying that is? Yeah, I think, I think and this, this is this would this is really interesting research that I that really lights my brain up is, I want I want to, I want to see these logical pathways and see how different they really are. When sort of two people come to the same conclusion, with different backgrounds are different foundations, do they even come to the same conclusion? And if

Aaron Brien: 58:24

they can, but their work showing their work, like, like, remember, though, in elementary school, you have to show your work. There was always that one kid that could do the math, but his work was not what the teacher wanted it to be. So it'd be the same thing. So yeah, it'd be cool to see though, it'd be cool to see.

Shandin Pete: 58:42

I think so. And I'm really, really curious about this. This idea? Because I think it I would suspect it's it's probably more complicated than just a difference if there is a difference in the logic, the logical pathway, well,

Aaron Brien: 59:01

either neuroscientists, maybe psychologists, maybe

Shandin Pete: 59:05

it's not necessarily that the logic, like the logic strategy, is just probably the logic pathway. You know, because we're just humans, we were, we have a, we all have a brain that sort of operates the same, but we have these, what they call them, like schemas, that they sort of call it like this, these, these pre built things from our, from our worldview, that that are familiar. So we hook onto those to try to understand something that is new, or that sort of, is what I don't know what to call it, like a phenomenon that is unknown. So we have these sets of schemas that we sort of latch on to, to make these leaps to try to understand something. And if what you're saying is true, and it seems to be true, then yeah, these people with these different foundations essentially as these That's, you could call them beliefs that they find true. So their logic pattern has to go through the certain steps to say, okay, yeah, I believe that or I don't believe that or Now I understand that better. So it makes sense then why? You know, non non Native people have such a struggle understanding some of our realities because they don't have, they don't have that. Those built in cultural schemas to figure out and understand why we do the things we do. Why we got six brokedown cars in the backyard, you know? We can't we don't really care about our 401 K's we'll we'll draw it out every five years and spend it that's we're gonna go on we'll take all the kids on a trip even though their trip is to come on in. Swimming

Aaron Brien: 1:00:59

in Missoula, man Indians love Come on in.

Shandin Pete: 1:01:04

But with that, it looks all wooded, wooded in forest, the or steep, doesn't like going to the forest without going to the forest. You know. Going into the woods, man, I you know, when I was a kid, my mom would drag us up to Twin Lakes for weeks on end. Yeah, just we just suffer you know, but we'd had fun you. But you know, the same pair of socks for three weeks. You know, Carrie McDonald just cold and wet all the time. And the feet hurt and yeah, so the woods. Yes. If you can go to the woods without having to go to the woods. That's awesome.

Aaron Brien: 1:01:50

That's come on in. And that's come on in.

Shandin Pete: 1:01:54

Plug in for a sponsor from come on in. Come on in.

Aaron Brien: 1:01:59

Come on. Come on in. Kick this man. Oh, yeah. It was a bad. That was badass.

Shandin Pete: 1:02:05

I think so. It's some it was Rocky. It

Aaron Brien: 1:02:07

was rocky at first.

Shandin Pete: 1:02:10

My biblical references weren't weren't doing it for you.

Aaron Brien: 1:02:13

What? Okay, so my critique of what just happened was at first, I think you thought I was talking about the division in practice.

Shandin Pete: 1:02:29

Yeah, I mean, maybe yeah. I mean, I didn't really know what your thoughts were. I was just trying to lead into the idea of division among families. Yeah, but I didn't know. But that's what it seemed like it was heading. Correct. Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 1:02:42

I didn't I didn't want that because that's that wasn't because that's common, right. That's normal. That's variation is

Shandin Pete: 1:02:49

good. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 1:02:52

Yeah, I was. I wasn't talking about that. But you nailed it. You said a bunch of fancy words. gaslighting

Shandin Pete: 1:02:58

me

Aaron Brien: 1:03:04

I think I think okay, yeah, sliding myself. Yeah. I think I'm trying to convince myself you were you're smart just now. Yeah. And

Shandin Pete: 1:03:13

then I'm not that. I just paid attention for a little bit.

Aaron Brien: 1:03:21

how long we've been talking

Shandin Pete: 1:03:23

hour and 15.

Aaron Brien: 1:03:25

That's a good place in your fence posts anyway.

Shandin Pete: 1:03:32

It's a good one. No, this was it. It turned out good. Yeah, it got me thinking about sort of in this next step of, of my thought pattern. Do it. Yeah, come up. What was that

Aaron Brien: 1:03:44

word? What was that word? You said skit schism?

Shandin Pete: 1:03:48

Quezon Quaife. No.

Aaron Brien: 1:03:53

Talking about someone's schema.com

Shandin Pete: 1:03:58

schema. Yeah. Schema. Schema? Yeah. All it is if I mean, so let's look up the definition and not just see schema is the scheme and how to scheme schema. Yeah, representation of a plan or theory in the form of an outline or model. Or in Kantian philosophy, a conception of what is common to all members of a class A general or essential type or form. That's when I was using

Aaron Brien: 1:04:36

the CAD me hit them seas hard. And DM them says you hit them Salish, em Salish T's man.

Shandin Pete: 1:04:45

That was a stress those are stressed stress cute not stressed the Q's not that deep. No case.

Aaron Brien: 1:04:52

Just yeah. Oh, you hit them. You hit them sailor style. Thompson maybe Thompson Salish. Now Okay

Shandin Pete: 1:05:00

maybe whoa yeah maybe more guttural music like way down in there and esophagus in the

Aaron Brien: 1:05:13

in the guests part of the esophagus

Shandin Pete: 1:05:19

way down in that guessing it this is devolving Yeah, let's cut it let's cut it there.

Aaron Brien: 1:05:27

That's good. That's plenty. That's plenty of pod man.

Shandin Pete: 1:05:29

Good and you know, yeah okay done