In this episode, the Tribal Research Specialist (TRS) team discuss what some may view as "secret knowledge" in Tribal Communities. In the episodes we are joined by returning guest Salisha Old Bull to provide further insight on this phenomenon.
The episode span a gamut of ideas and angles where the idea of ownership of knowledge manifest. In particular, in Indigenous art, where images and designs are often transferred, borrows and appropriated under many traditional and nefarious means. Also, discussed are cultural knowledge of traditions practiced by non-Native participants and the opinions and response from Tribal Communities.
Join the discussion and let us know your thoughts.
Guest: Salisha Old Bull (Salish/Apsáalooke)
Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)
PodCast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tribal-research-specialist-the-podcast/id1512551396
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/1H5Y1pWYI8N6SYZAaawwxb
Twitter: @tribalresearchspecialist
Facebook: www.facebook.com/TribalResearchSpecialist
YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UCL9HR4B2ubGK_aaQKEt179Q
Website: www.tribalresearchspecialist.com
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/TribalResearchSpecialist)
In this episode, the Tribal Research Specialist (TRS) team discuss what some may view as "secret knowledge" in Tribal Communities. In the episodes we are joined by returning guest Salisha Old Bull to provide further insight on this phenomenon.
The episode span a gamut of ideas and angles where the idea of ownership of knowledge manifest. In particular, in Indigenous art, where images and designs are often transferred, borrows and appropriated under many traditional and nefarious means. Also, discussed are cultural knowledge of traditions practiced by non-Native participants and the opinions and response from Tribal Communities.
Join the discussion and let us know your thoughts.
Guest: Salisha Old Bull (Salish/Apsáalooke)
Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)
PodCast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tribal-research-specialist-the-podcast/id1512551396
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/1H5Y1pWYI8N6SYZAaawwxb
Twitter: @tribalresearchspecialist
Facebook: www.facebook.com/TribalResearchSpecialist
YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UCL9HR4B2ubGK_aaQKEt179Q
Website: www.tribalresearchspecialist.com
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/TribalResearchSpecialist)
Hello and welcome to tribal research specialist the podcast where we will be talking about important things Hello and welcome to tribal research specialist the podcast a podcast dedicated to chatting about Hello and welcome to I'm going to start
Aaron Brien:this one out war dance championships. What? Sing it at war dance championships,
Shandin Pete:reservation wide war dance championships
Aaron Brien:it stops at the border Evreux today and ever go to Dayton if you're beyond
Shandin Pete:that, well, you're out of luck.
Unknown:Yeah, we live in.
Shandin Pete:You happen to live in by the Y. You're not in the money. You're not in the money
Aaron Brien:from dog Lake to mission down
Shandin Pete:if you happen to get a good job in planes.
Aaron Brien:And yeah, you're not getting them. You're on the money,
Shandin Pete:you know, in the money. Now, maybe you had an old homestead over in the swan in the money.
Salisha Old Bull:We're talking about Thanksgiving.
Shandin Pete:All right. Tell us about this song, man. What is it? What is this? What are we listening to?
Aaron Brien:That song was recorded by a guy named John Wilson, Jr. in the 1960s in the renal district of Montana. On tangible agency. Really, and now the guy singing is the guy's drum group. I don't know the name of Warren born bear cloud. Or Warren bear cloud. Yeah. That all still there? Yeah. Did you not hear me?
Shandin Pete:No, I know I cut out.
Aaron Brien:You cut out then you started yelling at us.
Salisha Old Bull:I know. Cool, but I
Shandin Pete:said I cut out. Okay, so worn bear cloud yet?
Aaron Brien:Yeah, born bear. The song was recorded by John Wilson. Senior was my grandma's brother. Oh, really. And the story goes is that it was the 60s and he bought a reel to reel recorder and basically went apeshit with it, you know? So my grandma says they're at, they would all they would all kind of get loaded up in the car and they'd go visiting. Yeah, they go visit people. And yeah, he would like get out his reel to reel and he'd want me to record them. So there's there's she gave me a bunch of reel to reel reels. And this song is on one of them. Yeah, and the funny part is is like some of it is like cool like there was this old man named or we'll go have a go she was telling stories. Yeah. Then on the next real real it's like he recorded the living room. Like kids playing Yeah, kids playing. I found that song on there and it was kind of cool because I my grandma gave me these reel to reel reels and Roy big crane put them on on disk for me my disc. Yeah. Yeah. And when I played them for her it like it. It was kind of emotional, actually because there's recordings of my grandpa and I'm to my grandpa playing guitar. Oh, so her husband? Yeah, my grandpa Ben. Yeah. And so she kinda was like he could remember like, she's like, Man music has. It's like it's attached to stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah, sure. Like when once she heard the song, man she could she could jump right in there and tell me like, we were at this place at this time. And this is what we're doing and this is what time of the year it was. She couldn't give me like dates like she can, but she knew because they called him beeps he passed away my grandma's brother in the 70s. So she knew at least like she's like I remember when he bought the reel to reel and he wanted to go to every dance he wanted to talk to all these people and so that's what that song came from. And it's just people call it a power song now but crows column hot dance songs, a dance. Yeah, but by the way, Lissa. Hmm
Shandin Pete:I was remembering a conversation we had. I can't remember what it was but it was like, is given like a like a like a broken crow lesson. Like you could say something in English and then you say this little crow thing at the end of it and it sounds like you know crow. Do you remember that? You remember that?
Aaron Brien:Oh, yeah. Kind of like we were talking about. Rock kind of filler words are like sh R. So one of them is gone. Cogan and and yeah, like they say, yeah, yeah, they'll just speak English. But they say like then and then Cogan, we, we went to Walmart, and then they just say like, little words like AIG, AIG.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Warren, Warren Warren and more berkhout AIG.
Aaron Brien:AIG, AIG weren't AIG Warren saying that good song and then gone. Everybody danced, you know. But the keys to the CRO, you know, yeah,
Shandin Pete:yeah. These little filler words. Yeah. I got that one. I said his name. I was like, Oh, yeah. What was that word? He was saying. Just throw in there. Sprinkle in there.
Aaron Brien:There's like, a gun. And then there's a big hand in our hem. Hem. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And
Shandin Pete:yeah, on these on these random rows. Oh, yeah. Keep it going, man.
Aaron Brien:No, no. I'm trying to plug in my computer. There's Go ahead, go. Oh,
Shandin Pete:no, yeah. So that's, that's, uh, you know, that these these other reel to reels I have. There's, there's one I think that's just all good recording from the from the radio, you know, it's just, like a whole reel of just somebody recording the radio.
Aaron Brien:We I have songs, you know, same thing with those with that real a real there's just like country songs. Yeah. So like Ernest Tubb and Hank Snow and, you know, Donnie Williams and those kind of guys, George Jones. Like, it's like, he just recorded the real you know,
Shandin Pete:his hit record and did your business. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. Interesting. And that that gets to get preserved in that way. Even if it's just a little seem seemingly nothing but to someone. It's very meaningful, you know? And yeah,
Aaron Brien:and, and the, and one of the only one of the things that makes it meaningful is time. Yeah. Yeah. You know, what I mean? Like, time is what made that thing important, because, like, even those living room sounds when you can just hear kids playing my grandma was like, identifying the kids. That song? Yeah, cuz it's like my mom in them, you know?
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah. This is Oh, yeah. Cool. Keep going, man. I keep interrupting you. Get on a roll.
Aaron Brien:I just say just the only thing that the reason it's important is because a time
Shandin Pete:good. No, that's good. That's good. That's good, because it's what's important about that. And in relation to what, what I want to talk about today, is this idea of guarding, guarding material guarding things that are important. That might be I guess, some might say, in a way that I guess if you're living outside of a community and you're not in the community, living and breathing and in joining in the pursuits of that community, one might say that There is secret knowledge that there's some ideas, some data information. That's secret that's not available to outsiders. And I don't know if that's true or not. I think there's some information that's inaccessible. But is there some information that is, I guess purposefully kept in held or guarded in some way so that no one can access it? Except for certain people who meet a certain criteria? Like this, this this reel, this reel of this song that you shared with us, you could have decided, well, no, these are my treasures. I don't, I don't want no one else to know this song. Maybe everybody forgot it. I want to be the one to just know it. And I want to keep it for myself. And I'll only share it with certain people who meet a certain criteria that I feel, I guess you could say the criteria might be a worth. Or I guess have a, some particularity about them? Is that a word particularity? It just came out? Particularly clarity.
Unknown:I don't think clarity.
Shandin Pete:I don't know what I mean, what's your thoughts on that? I mean, you shared freely this thing that you got, and, and eating, you don't really you don't mind. But there's people that I think do mind. And I think that they think things should be kept a secret. And therefore outsiders believe in a way that there are bodies of knowledge that are held in secret. What's your thoughts?
Aaron Brien:Um, well, there's a lot of thoughts really?
Shandin Pete:Well, just give me one. I mean,
Aaron Brien:if, if, if you act, first, you have to attach ownership to something then in order for it for you to inhibit somebody else from learning it. Right. So like, for example, I don't own that song. Right. And I, I can I can neither decide if it's for someone or not for someone I can't do either. Right. Right.
Shandin Pete:That makes sense.
Aaron Brien:Yeah. So I mean, in order for me to say like, those people shouldn't know, they can't know this stuff like that. That's only acting on assumption that that I have power saying what they can again, know and how they can and can use something. Right. And I, and I don't know. I guess maybe to a point. I don't know. That's a hard one. Because for one. I don't know if I know anything that value
Shandin Pete:everything I know, everybody already knows. So yeah.
Aaron Brien:You know what I mean? Like? I mean, I would have to know something like that other people don't know. And that I don't know, anything that other people don't know.
Shandin Pete:That's a good thing. So what that does, that's what you think. So this so this is what I got then I guess so. So solutions with us here today. And this This relates very strongly with them with her her things that she knows because you see this happen not only with my guests, I guess songs with the cultural knowledge, but I guess I'm I mean, also with like designs. So some some artists and some bead b two workers are hesitant to share their their designs or their beadwork because they're afraid someone will steal those designs and pop them off as their own. So therefore, that design or that style of beating, I guess could be kept and held in secret. So So
Aaron Brien:why be then? Well, then
Shandin Pete:that's the question I want to ask Felicia is how do we how do we bridge that? Because you've made it clear that okay, there's this song, come across it. I don't own it. But I think it's different when you're talking about someone who's creating something that's coming from their imagination or their
Aaron Brien:house, like war. Let's just say Soon Warren bear crowd made that song. Okay, let's assume that. Yes, the venue in which he sang the song, which is a social dance now puts it in the realm of up for grabs.
Shandin Pete:It's a thing, you know, yeah.
Aaron Brien:It's there. Had he not wanted us to hear the song with the assumption that it could be recorded. It could be sung by a different group. It could be you sung by other people or, yeah, hummed in a car, right? Yeah. Why would he? Why would he even say?
Shandin Pete:Yeah, yeah, I know. I agree with you. I know, I agree with you. But I'm, I'm curious, because I know, this is a phenomenon in the art world of copying while you see it, you see it in other things, too. I mean, yeah, I mean, you you hear a song and you kind of scoff at you can? Oh, that sounds like so and so song. They just, it just made the ending a little different, you know, and you're kind of like, you know,
Aaron Brien:actually, that's where this this this, this discussion could go is actually to, like, stand up comedy. Yeah, like, you know, like the idea of jokes stealing. Yeah, the idea of bits in in Yeah. Something that's created in the mind that can be purchased and transferred. It's weird, like the whole standard world. They buy and sell jokes. So they might be this subculture of people that understands Indians too. Because we could say, well, I purchased that song from so and so right. I purchased this. I seen this person getting this design, and I asked if I could have it and they said, Well, yeah, yeah, go ahead. So I gave him. Yeah. Like this idea that something creative or something that's, that comes from the mind can be purchased. Comedians, talk about it with jokes. They'll say I like that premise. Or I like that joke. And they'll buy it, they'll actually write a check. Give some money for the joke. I always think it's fascinating. Because that's, that's appropriate.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I suppose in a way, because I think it implies, like you said, an ownership like there's a thought a person thought it up, I guess, or made a connection with someone that's funny in a way. But let's talk about like color combinations. There was something going on where somebody was trying to claim these color combinations are mine. You can't use those. I mean,
Aaron Brien:no, I want to I want to take on this, okay.
Shandin Pete:Oh, no, no, I don't want you to shut up. I want you to be quiet. Oh, no.
Aaron Brien:That's ridiculous. No, yeah. No,
Shandin Pete:this happens though. This happens. You you you've mentioned, it happens with songs. You know, it happens, you know, somebody sings someone song, they get mad, and they go over and, you know, throw a wad of money on it on the drum reluctantly. Because they, so I never told them. They could sing that. But then it's down to this thing of ownership. Like you said, you all you sang it on a CD, and you sold 300 copies of it at the last power. What can you What do you expect in a way? I don't know. I don't know. It's weird. So what what is it in in? In the in the Art Spectrum? Because singing is an art form? I don't know.
Salisha Old Bull:I think I think it's weird. The the whole the ownership because I I've seen artists who encourage sharing of their work and the devout. Like, if you develop something based off of their word, they're fine with that. And because they, they believe in the natural. What is that called? appropriation. They believe that that's a natural thing that it's going to happen inevitably. And so the dowel, they would rather be a part of their work being taken. And in almost treat it like. Yeah, I said, or I said, anybody could take it. So it's like, you can't steal it because I already said you could. You could have it because it was already something I put it out there. Like yeah, well, you guys just said but then there's other artists who they don't do that. And I so the interesting thing to me is there's either that extreme or the other way. The other extreme is, for some reason or another and this is baffling to me. How, like in Indian country, we went from being able to tell each other apart by the way we dressed in our different types of clothing. which used to be just everyday clothing, and then it turned into like power regalia. And you could see the differences in everybody. But how it went from that to like inter tribal type of thing, and everybody was using everybody else's stuff. And you couldn't tell where anybody was formed because it was so contemporary. Well went all the way to that. And now it's reverting back. And now it's like, people are like, Wait, those are only you know, these type of designs, and you shouldn't be doing those because you're not from that place. And it's, like, really confusing to me how we can go all the way, one way and then try to turn around and come back. It's almost like you can't turn that around. Like, once you went past that, but it's like a whole phenomenon. I feel like yeah, I see happening anyway. Yeah, I,
Shandin Pete:you know, I don't know. Seems like we're, we could, like you said, kind of got mixed up or mixed up in a way. But this is, I don't know. So where does the where do we draw the line and on? Well, I guess it's per individual, right, where they might want to draw the line. For example, music can be copyrighted, right? Legally, US legal traditions.
Salisha Old Bull:Music, the things that I think about is like what Eric just said is why would you put it out there if it's something so personal, why would you put it out there and not expect it to be taken especially the way the format that things are put out in the world today are usually like a picture format, you can easily copy it and easily transform it into whatever from that point, right? You know, so yeah, why you would even pick her and or photograph it talking like Indian picture it and then send it out
Shandin Pete:duplicate it. Like a facsimile.
Aaron Brien:Even picture it? Yeah. Why would you even
Shandin Pete:to go down to the school and make a demo of it? Did all machines
Aaron Brien:were not that Oh, come on. It was your laser this
Shandin Pete:Come on. Hey, so
Aaron Brien:So as some thoughts on this, because they Leisha brings up good points. And while she was talking it, like she said, something that triggered me right before she talked about talking like I'm triggered right now. Okay. So what I've also noticed is Native people have tried to now attach the, the culture of European art to native art. So this idea that like an individual's work should be treated in the same light as like, say, painting from Picasso, like, no one's gonna copy, Picasso's painting. What they fail to realize is that typically, a lot of native art that we know of today, its foundation is in utilitarian objects. Right, which gives it a whole different route. Yeah, right. A painting that's put on the wall, like a Picasso is it's purely aesthetic. Yes, no utilitarian function. So when it comes to designs, and it comes to things, we're not talking about designs that are used for esthetics, necessarily, I mean, they are but they're attached to armbands and cuffs and war bonnets and their, their their garments. These are Yeah, so I think that and I don't know exactly like how it changes it, but it seemed it should change it. Because if see, Leisha puts out a design a badass geometrical design, and then somebody else is inspired by that design and, and borrows some of the concepts of it. Yeah. Where where's it wrong? And where's it? Right now? I think if somebody takes Salish, this geometric design, and reuses it and changes the colors. Yeah, culturally, in the crow way, the way I would say they would have to buy that design to do that. They would have to say can Yeah, I'll give you this, you know, and they certainly should say, yeah, you give me these. It's always the same for things right. But and then then they have the, you know what I mean? Because it's it's purely social, like dancing for the crows like these designs there. It's purely social now, there is a ceremony called the daytime dance. Yeah. And but again, those garments, those are all other than the bustles, they're all kind of like
Unknown:a static. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:So I'm wondering if the argument that is coming from the art world? And I don't know the argument necessarily that, but are stealing designs and ideas, is that coming from people who are culturally competent people?
Salisha Old Bull:Well, and that's the thing that's interesting to me is because it's like, all ages, right? You have all ages, like within that, that skill set. And there's like younger people who were raised by grandparents or whatever, and then they decide they're going to bark or whatever they're doing, but all of a sudden, they want to use something that's from where they're from. And then all of a sudden, you know, if somebody else uses those things, because that's how it was, like, all through the 90s, and all through whenever, you know, all of a sudden, everybody cares. And it's like, well, wait a minute, you know, like, why did why don't you just why do we just now care about that? You know, it's also the same, like, the colors, you know, like, I would say, like, in the context of the way like Crow was do things, you know, it's very, still very, a lot of it's very intact, like, the colors of certain things mean, something, but I think that's true for a lot of tribes, like colors mean certain things. And so, but I don't think he can go as far as to say, hey, you have to get those colors for me, you know, because there's only a limited amount of colors. Somebody is gonna think of that color combination, eventually.
Aaron Brien:That magenta belongs to
Shandin Pete:me. Yeah. Yeah. Magenta against white. That's my I came up with that. So yeah.
Aaron Brien:Now this, this makes me think of like, a, of like Sundance scene and stuff. When When, when crows unless they paint, you don't like, what you don't copy somebody paint. It's not purely aesthetic, right? And if you were the one, if you wanted to use that paint, you pay for it. And then and then you have permission. But that's a whole different level of like, cultural understanding, it's a different thing. It's a different genre. So it seems like a lot of these concepts of like, Hey, you can use this because of this is, is probably born from this younger people, hearing older folks talk about deeply rooted ceremonial stuff. Yeah, where there is this idea that you can't use. So for this particular ceremony, this is his thing. And this is the stuff he uses the colors he uses. Yeah. And now you have younger people that are talking about like chicken dancing, and they're like saying, you can't use an all white bustle and and say, Who the hell says you get? You know? Yeah. I mean. Yeah, I like the round bus. All right. I've heard people say, like, I've heard it from Salish people where they're like, it's only a flathead thing, or it's only Yeah. And I'm like, No, it's not, you know, like, that doesn't make it less or worse. It's just this idea that we're all borrowing stuff. This is all borrowed, right? The punkers or the Omaha should probably be the ones complaining, you know, this thing just went crazy and went bonkers, you know, and now now everyone's claiming old stuff. It's funny because you see it in all aspects of Indian country where it's in the art world with designs, colors, color schemes and concepts. Then you see it in dancing, like Paulo dancing. You see this idea of like, see the way he dances, he just copies Shawn scabby robe or something. It's like, Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And Indian people, for sure, in the rocky mountains and plains believe in good fortune and luck. So when they see someone who's successful, they'll say, I should do like that. In fact, crows will bring that person over and say, hey, I want you to pray for my kids because my kid, we want him to do what you're doing. Like literally, like they'll ask you, you know, like, to the point where in the old days they would eat and say can they touch you? Like touch your shoulders, like the person they want to be like, or the person or good fortune, you know? So, this this idea that somehow I don't know, I think there if you know, you know, you know what I mean, this is one of those things where if you know, you know, like if people knew when someone was inspired, let's use Shawn again for an example, Sean scarier because chicken dads he took over, right? Yeah. Yeah, so you knew Sean because Sean, Sean Chicken Dance for a while, right. It was like, you knew the guys, it was like Guy Fox and in Shawn's shoe for like, our region. And then you knew when somebody was inspired by those guys, and then when somebody was copying those guys, right, like, to the point where they had the same black outfit with like, the yellow plumes and the white, like, the same thing. So it's like, you know, like, down, you know, right. Am I right, or am I wrong?
Shandin Pete:You're no, you're right. You're right. You're right. I think I feel like, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, so yeah. This is what this is where we're at. And I think you said it. I think people said it. already touched on how we're, we're, we've adopted this particular way. Some might say we were we're have a colonized way of thinking about things where we're commodifying what we do and how we do it, and then, so, ownership, okay.
Aaron Brien:Okay. Let's say I'm like, over this whole, what's colonized and I had to throw it in here all the time. It's just like, yeah, it's goddamn anxiety attack trying to figure out if you're colonized, colonized.
Salisha Old Bull:This is what this is, what this how you know, what you are, how does that go? You want to know how I know you're colonized.
Aaron Brien:You know, I know you're calling.
Salisha Old Bull:Anyone save fast. But how I know is when you see ownership statement, like the one with I was making fun of it the other day, and the ownership statement of what was that when you are on Indian land? And I'm like, Whoa, actually, we're like an animal and or before that. We never land that we didn't ever own the land.
Aaron Brien:I just a guy will go crazy. A person will go crazy. Trying to figure it out. Where does they're joining the lines of like, what's colonize what's not colonized with? What's Indian? What's not Indian? Is Indian even appropriate? Are they appropriating what I know and my appropriating it for these people? Like, God damn, I need a ribbon skirt, and I gotta have it land acknowledgement. Like it's too much, man. It's like, like, an app
Shandin Pete:with a flowchart.
Aaron Brien:flowchart, and a feasibility study done first.
Salisha Old Bull:Yeah, my colonised and yeah, like
Shandin Pete:it's just you wearing one or two pieces of beadwork? Yes.
Aaron Brien:Oh, yes. Okay, do you feel like you're living? Do you feel like you're living in two worlds? No, it feels very much like one world
Shandin Pete:Photobox a, in the One World. Do you is there a surrounding you? No, no, no, it's okay. Go to boxy
Salisha Old Bull:round or flat.
Aaron Brien:I think this are we on a turtle? Are we not on the turtle?
Shandin Pete:Yeah, we want to
Aaron Brien:wait, wait, wait a second. I heard we were on a turtle. Are we not on a turtle anymore?
Shandin Pete:I think I think it's still islands. I'm not sure.
Aaron Brien:Are we on a turtle? Or is it a goose now?
Salisha Old Bull:Is it a bird? Or is it mud?
Aaron Brien:Yeah. Wait, how big is an island? Did we come? Was it? Wait,
Shandin Pete:did we still come from?
Aaron Brien:Is it still? Is it still an island if it's this big? Is it even possible to have a turtle be an island? Even a thing can that even happen?
Salisha Old Bull:What is the North Pole in this instance?
Aaron Brien:Oh my gosh.
Shandin Pete:I'm sorry I triggered you there.
Aaron Brien:I need my smudge bowl where's my rattle? Somebody hand me a
Salisha Old Bull:we need a father.
Aaron Brien:I need for traditional dancers. No, it just too much.
Shandin Pete:What I was gonna say four or
Aaron Brien:777 This is
Shandin Pete:about it. Alright, there's there's this instance. And I'm not going to say the C word that rhymes with
Aaron Brien:say the C word either because that means a whole different thing with can I say the C word? You're like, whoa whoa whoa we need 10 traditional dancers. no
Shandin Pete:no
Aaron Brien:this is all out freakin dude, this frickin topic because
Shandin Pete:it's the people's problem and the people
Aaron Brien:who are saying talking about your worship do that pound your fist the people who are out there talking about ownership know nothing about it. Okay, that's, I mean, that's a fact.
Salisha Old Bull:Okay, making car payments.
Aaron Brien:I don't trust any Indian who comments on on things? I don't trust any Indian comments on anything. If they felt compelled to comment on somebody beadwork or someone's art piece, they're fired, dude, they're
Shandin Pete:off the island.
Aaron Brien:These are the same people who write heated letters to the editor. So you know, this whole thing about Karen's and all this stuff, dude, people who comment about this stuff or Karen's so quick. Even the people who are calling people Karen's or Karen's, it's like, losing it. I'm freaking loser.
Shandin Pete:Okay, let me let me bring you called yourself, Karen.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, I am in this sense. I'm being a Karen. And actually, I have an aunt named Karen. And and here's the most ironic part. She was a cop. Okay.
Shandin Pete:Okay. He killed it. What do you mean? I mean,
Aaron Brien:the whole Karen thing of like, enforcing the rules, and only Karen I really knew my whole life was a cop. So it's it's hard to defend that
Salisha Old Bull:photo Mary Poppins moment.
Shandin Pete:That wasn't my you know,
Aaron Brien:I'm fired up because I'm gonna not even do okay, go ahead. I'm gonna shut up now.
Shandin Pete:No, no, no, no, I want to, I want to, I want to throw this out there. And I think we already know the answer. But this is something this is something that happened. So that the apparently an artist made some sketches of, of something that was considered by the tribal group to be sacred in a way. Oh, and then yeah. Because because of, you know, you know, artists, everybody needs to live and those kinds of things sold the sketches. It to I don't know, where ended up in a museum or something. And then it became this issue where then the tribe is saying, well, we need those back because it's documenting something. That is our job. Pepijn No, no, I'm not. No, no. Oh, no, no, no. cuz I'll defend. Yeah. This is not from around here. This isn't Oh, I think I think this is this was a Pueblo This isn't okay. One of the Pueblos Yeah. And it became this this deal where yeah, it were that there's this thought I guess that whatever he sketched
Aaron Brien:get the knowledge Where did the person get
Shandin Pete:the guy? So the guy is, I guess, would have been deemed as knowledgeable of these ceremonial practices enough to that he could go and attend and be a part of it. It was the whole rights. I have no idea. I have no idea.
Aaron Brien:I mean, I guess. I mean, we're very regional. We're a regional podcast, for sure. Right, right. Yeah. Like, I speak, in general. But I for sure can't speak for people in the southwest, because they kind of have a whole different system of like, they're strong and like, so duality culture, they're strong and like it's an rituals. Ritual. I T. Alright, T. Icky. Right. I would have to pretend to know anything about them. Yeah. And I don't, but am Act known as assumption that if, if the art is an accurate reflection of the culture, then the artists
Shandin Pete:Yeah, I'm not I don't think it is. I mean, I, I don't think it is, but this, this is becoming problematic. Where our own people are deeming things to be secret, secretive, to a point where Yeah, nobody, nobody gets. Nobody gets to partake in that thing that's being held secret. And in a way, I guess one could say that, well, it's secret, because it just can't be freely shared with anybody. There has to be some steps that you have to go through to understand the responsibility that's attached with that particular knowledge. And I kind of get that I get that in a way that you can't just say, Okay, here's, here's, here's something that's, I guess, super, super important to some ceremonial practice. And we're just gonna go let Joe Blow, you know, take off with it.
Aaron Brien:For example, there's an artist's up here in Montana, are we allowed to say names or anything? I'm not
Shandin Pete:saying whatever you want to get it, you say whatever you want?
Aaron Brien:Well, like Jesse DeRosa. Right. From Blackfeet. Young guy, very knowledgeable, culturally knowledgeable, involved in the culture. I bought Piece art from him. I'm not Blackfeet. Yeah, it was a painting of a story about a guy named Scarface. And some people might deem that story to be so sacred that it can be talked about. Yeah, but I think it seems like there's a comfort level that comes with the cultural people, people who are involved in a culture that he wanted art that reflected his identity. Yeah. So he painted this piece. And it's awesome, man. It's like this. It and I bought it because of that I said, I'd rather I'd rather buy other tribes are. If it's comes from an authentic place, then by something cheesy, that comes from our people. You know what I mean? Yeah, I really respect that. Because people are like, Oh, do you believe in the Scarface story? Why don't not believe in it? It's like, it's, it's, it's the fact that the artist was culturally grounded. And that art is a reflection of of him. Now that's different. I can only speak for like the Indian world like, right? I'm only dealing like, in this sense. It's a native person. I'm buying art from the native person. I'm a native person. I've never sold art to a museum. I don't know what goes into that. There's times I have question intent with a lot of things. But again, that that's acting under the assumption that I know, that person's thinking, I know that person's knowledge. And also that I know that person's right. What do they have, that I that? That gives them the license to do such things? Now, that's not to say I'm not critical of certain artists out there that I know don't have the right to certain things and to and to say, Now, here's the difference. I'm not saying those people can't get the right to them. Yeah, I think the knowledge Hey, I think I just answered my own question or your, your question. Knowledge is for sure. Proprietary, it's, it's for sure. We'll use the word secret. It's, but everyone has access to those secrets into that proprietary knowledge. If they've gone through the right steps, right. And then once that knowledge is given to that person, it's theirs to do with as they see appropriate, especially if they hold the right to that, for example. The argument about filming or Sundance or taking pictures of ceremony. Right? Yeah. People from the outside looking in, they criticize. Yeah. Well, I was quickly educated years ago that the owner of that, right, the owner of that Lodge, or whatever it is, yeah, determines if those things can happen, once you have the right, you can say whatever you want, you can say no, no pictures that's on you. There's a lot of independence in that. I think there's a lot of sovereignty in that. Yeah. But if you know, you know, you know what I mean?
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah. So it's getting away from the idea that I guess things are homogenous.
Aaron Brien:In a way I know what that means.
Shandin Pete:Well, you know, you get the milk. It says homogenized.
Aaron Brien:I asked you before what this means. And you said the same joke.
Shandin Pete:Let's go back, which episode will go back?
Aaron Brien:Good. You say it looks.
Shandin Pete:Okay. It's the same things. The assumption that things are the same. Across practices?
Aaron Brien:Yeah. In fact, yesterday, I heard a crow guy, a crow elder guy, because yesterday was the winter solstice. Happy Winter Solstice, everybody. Yeah. And some of the traditional folks got together and had a little thing. Yeah. While we were standing there. The guy said that. Now, he was talking to another person, though we all kind of like huddled around him, you know? Yeah. And he said that remember that your your spiritual power could be a weasel. And my spiritual power could be a weasel. But your rules and protocols for that weasel could be very different than mine.
Unknown:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right.
Aaron Brien:So yeah, so I guess you're right, that Hamas is homogenized?
Shandin Pete:Yeah, I think that's the assumption, you know, yeah. No, I think that's, that can be some of the misconceptions of folks looking outside in, or even the folks inside who don't understand our own their own practices, or are just learning you know, they think, Okay, this is the way it is, I'm going to apply it to everything. So then they start pointing the finger say, well, you're doing this wrong. Because it's not like this person that I know that doesn't see that happen.
Salisha Old Bull:Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think when it's tough when we're in a time right now, like, what you were just describing, because that elder would only make that moment secret intentionally. So the fact that you guys were all listening, it's like, you have to show that initiative, in order to gain those good teachings, like you have to step up and show that initiative by yourself. And that's what allows you to obtain, like that type of teaching. But what's interesting is like, everybody doesn't is not fortunate, fortunate enough to have that situation, like ever. And so they start seeking, seeking anything that they could possibly get. And what's hard is when when somebody thinks that one thing applies to all of Indian country. So yeah, if everybody else is doing it a different way, like, everybody's incorrect, and they're the only right run the only right one and if you're just learning, it can be confusing, because I also would apply to knowledge that was like supposed to be I guess helpful in a way like in the spiritual context, like if you were doing something on a daily basis, like some sort of meditation or whatever. Yeah. And in in somebody would think that that's applies to everybody. But it doesn't do know that it's like, criticize things. It's on the flip side, there's good things that also that happens, like, just because one tribe believes in one thing, and this is like how you do it. There's like steps to how you do this one good thing. Yeah, sometime, that can get construed out like a generalization. Like all the tribes do that all the tribes do that one thing and they take those exact same steps. So somebody who's trying to learn their ways or whatever would be confused by that, especially if they don't have nothing to base it off of
Shandin Pete:Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. What? Okay, so what, what what I was thinking of when you guys are both talking about this is, is how worked up. We can get natives can get when and a lot of times I think it's it's really pointless but like so when when non natives started doing things like, like building sweat houses or copying, kind of copying our ways, you know, and some people can get kind of worked up over that and think well no, that's, that's, that's our way you shouldn't be doing that. How does that how does that fit in? Into what we're just talking about? Because I for the most part they do Yeah, yeah, I mean that's what I'm thinking why does it matter so much? It's not it's not the same it will never be the same as as what we're doing our practices that are of our own they're just taking bits and pieces of what they can pull off the internet or what yeah and so said but there's there's people who who are adamant say no, I'm going to protest to the to the end of my living days that you will not do this is our your your culturally appropriating irony.
Aaron Brien:I heard a guy say long time was actually a lady she said. Those people who have time to complain in and and regulate other people's cultural doings are those who are not at home doing those things.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:If you're busy doing the work. I mean, that's, that's your where your concern is. Yeah. And with this gonna go towards this other thing? Yeah. So then that means when you're on your off time, and you're not doing that, you're going to spend it with your kids, spend it with your family, you're not going to be like, You know what, those guys are doing fake sweats at Mount sasta. We got to get in the Mystery Machine and get down there, you know? Like, it's like, whatever, if they want to do a half assed version of a sweat, whatever, man. It's not ever Yes. Yes, not. thing. It's like,
Shandin Pete:let me let me throw this twist in there, then. So what about when, say, a company takes a design that is of a certain tribe and starts putting it on their products and starts monetizing and selling it? Is that the same or different? Should we just still not care and say, Wow, whatever.
Aaron Brien:I guess like it. What's just give me an example? Well, I don't know. Like, you would need a fast example,
Shandin Pete:let's say a fashion designer who's who's obviously taken a design off of
Aaron Brien:are you talking about the LT thing?
Shandin Pete:I could be? I'm not. I'm not I wasn't thinking of that. Specifically. I was thinking of, I think there's there's a picture of some famous fashion design. I don't know, Louis Vuitton? I don't know, I don't know who it was. But they had
Aaron Brien:they kind of took a design. Yeah. Right. And made like their own little. Yeah, real similar to like a crow design. Right? Well,
Shandin Pete:it might have been, it was it was it was a geometrical thing. Yeah, there was a couple different tribes that you could tell come from, from products from from that. Those groups. Yeah. So in that case, in that case, we just say whatever, whatever they're making. I mean, well, what money they're making? I know, what can you do anyway?
Aaron Brien:What are we gonna do?
Shandin Pete:What do you do? What do you want to do? solutia? What do you want to do?
Salisha Old Bull:I don't know. Like, I think where, where that's concerned. I get you're so confused by all that. Like, I'm probably the benefit of the doubt person because I think, okay, there's things that we have as Native people and all throughout Indian country that don't come from here. But we took it over and made it ours in our own way. And so, there's some things that I didn't I don't I kind of like wonder if people forgot where it came from. I'm not saying our stuff came from other people, but I don't know I just think about like some of our resources and some of the things that we use and and so in that way, like, I don't get like super refreeze, but I do think it's interesting. Where I think like the root of it of the madness comes from is or the root of the anger is like, we have to fight so hard through history for everything like you do this blanket statement. We have to fight so hard for everything and then all of a sudden, like the one little tiny things that we have that We still have going for us. And now you get these designers that come in and take the one little thing that we have left and want to go profit off. But it was something that came from Native people. And so I can, I can understand that general anger. And I also want to like the different, like a couple of different examples, like the one that Aaron mentioned with a geometric. Like, I think that's wrong, like if you're taking a design, but then I get come, this is where I get confused. I'm like, okay, the the woman is mad that the designer took her design, but she's a designer. But the designer took her design and then changed it, but it still looks like her design. But, but the design actually came from the woman's grandmother. But here's where I get confused is the design. The woman was using it to profit off of that design. Anyway, so I started getting lost because I think when you when you throw in like money, and it changes everything, like totally like that's it like it like it makes it not the whole thing with the rights. And now it's like it takes away from that is when you start profiting monetarily off of something that was meant to you originally had a different context to it. I don't know if that makes sense.
Aaron Brien:Makes total sense. Yeah, once you put it out in that realm, you also you're, you're you're opening yourself up for those kinds of things. So again, like if that particular designer stayed within a certain circle? Like those who No, no, because there's plenty of native designers that don't get their stuff taken by Louis Vuitton. But this particular one, that's the circle sheets choosing to be in. Yeah, you know, so that's going to happen because the big dogs are going to come in and take what they want, you know, and like, does that mean it's right or wrong? I don't know. Because I don't know that world. I don't know that that's a whole different thing. That's not You're not talking about some Indian ladies who are beating and they're saying, Hey, you took my I mean, now you're into like international fashion. You know what I mean? Like? I didn't mean to sound condescending. But you know what I meant, like?
Shandin Pete:Women fighting beadwork? Yeah. No,
Aaron Brien:I never, I never my mom. She beat it. And my grandma, my dad's mom beaded, and I have a lot of relatives who beat and I never hear him fighting about designs and stuff. I never had
Shandin Pete:a long line of great leaders.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, just blood. Yeah, it's in my blood. No, it's not okay. It's not on my blog. I just don't. That's why I go back to this. It sounds stupid. But I keep saying it. If you know, you know. Yeah. And maybe there's some things that are so insular. Like, you know, when some, you know, when something smells good instinct Ville, you know what I mean?
Shandin Pete:No, that was weird. Yes. I'm on I'm on it. Yeah. So this is this is my, this has always been my kind of take home message on everything, you know, like, and it's you said it. And I think a lot of people hold that same belief, you know, if you're, if you're facing away from your people, you know, pointing the finger at everything. I mean, you're probably not doing the work of your people. There's, there's so many things that are going on in our own communities that we need people to pay attention to. But we're gonna be concerned, like you said about some some folks out in Mount Shasta or some company and I don't know were trying to profit off of off of us. Yeah, we got more going on. We got way more going on that needs needs to be that
Aaron Brien:people need homes. Well, yeah, people need homes. Like there's a housing shortage in the majority of the Rocky Mountains, right? For native people. Yeah, there's families who, who are literally struggling to get by we're not talking about like this. My kid can't get Jordans so he's got to buy a Steph Curry's you know what I mean? Like, it's not like that. Like, it's like there are families that have a hard time. So he's in those families are sitting there going, oh, man, I don't like that they use Chief Wahoo on the Cleveland Indians. Not they don't care. Yeah, no, no. Now maybe it's systemic. And that means that the Cleveland Indians should have been compensating native people for the use of a character. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what any of it is. All I know is that I've kind of stepped away from that world of like, that activists kind of mentality. Yeah, because I think the fight is somewhere else. Yeah, right. I confuse noise with production, you know, for being productive.
Salisha Old Bull:Or Let's just not talk about, like the major things. I feel like we always screwed around the major things. And then we focus on these other things to appease our frustration by like, the fact that everybody's kids can't even hardly get enrolled anymore.
Shandin Pete:Right. Right. Right. Yeah, blood, blood quantum,
Aaron Brien:then. That's a whole different
Shandin Pete:thing that we should be worried about. I think anyway, yeah. No hoarding, trying to put up build these walls, too. So no,
Aaron Brien:where do you think, what do you think cultural committees fit in all this?
Shandin Pete:Yeah, this is a strange one. And I really, I think culture committees are important, but I think it's really important that you have culture committees comprised of people who are practitioners. And they're, they're aware of, of the changing trends and the changing needs of the next generation. I mean, if they're not, then they're, they're more in the way than anything.
Aaron Brien:Yeah. And see, we've, we've, we've appropriated a term two and a title. We've appropriated it in Indian country, it actually belongs to the Mormons. What is it? Elder?
Shandin Pete:Yeah, like, yeah,
Aaron Brien:originally, the reason why this whole, I mean, of course, tribal people believe in the respect of people. But if you want to go back to real traditional people, they always say, feed your kids first, you know, feed your kids, you know, they'll feed their kids. So like, nowadays, we start with the Elders first, well, that really that was born out of a reaction to culture loss, but they've somehow adopted this like, Well, I'm a tribal. There's a difference between being a tribal elder and being a person of your community, you know? Yeah. And I think these cultural committees need to be comprised of members, like you said, who are practitioners, which was the original intent of gaining knowledge from elders? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of instances in communities where you that people who are in their 70s, and 80s, but really the knowledgeable people are those who are in their 50s and early 60s, you know, right. Right. Like, it's kind of funny. It's just got to take a history class to understand why that is the way it is. And but it's very true. I don't even know, I just, I just, I just know, the cultural committee thing. I personally think it's got major flaws, major flaws, but then I also don't know, what else would you do? What's the other alternative?
Shandin Pete:That's the next thing? And I think that's, I think that's should be the next topic of discussion, or at least another future episode is, what was the solution then? And how can we make some change in that way? I don't know if we are, we will like us.
Aaron Brien:But we didn't we I don't think we accomplished anything today.
Shandin Pete:Know? That sounds like what secret knowledge and I wanted to kind of get deepen on it.
Aaron Brien:But we got into the art world, which to me, the art world is like, it's a sub genre. It's like a subculture. And they seem to have their own rules. Because I've seen artists take designs from shields, I've seen them take designs from things and in that realm, it's totally okay to do that. Yeah. And I would say no, because someone who's around that kind of stuff to those objects knows, it's like, why those things hold power. So it's, I think it's a different, maybe that's just the thing. It's like, what's not?
Shandin Pete:I don't know, we've talked about this, I think and it was like, Well, I mean, if you do replicate those kinds of things, you're not replicating the the power in it. It's just the image of it. I know we're gonna, we're gonna spin off. Okay,
Aaron Brien:that's a tough one, man. It is a tough one. Because I mean, our is
Shandin Pete:the image. Maybe it is but it's not being used in the same way. Nor is it hi was acquired in the same manner.
Aaron Brien:What? See yeah.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, that is a good one. Yeah. I think that's a good one, I think has now
Aaron Brien:killed me. I made for the whole show. Just because now I know what I know.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, you just off 40 minutes of what you just said.
Aaron Brien:It's confusing. Being Indian is confusing. That's what it comes down to being like, I'm just gonna do What I do is with my family and like with, with, and there's a very different thing in putting things in practice and then talking about things. Right now. I really enjoy things that are deeply like, cultural, like, kind of what we what most people deem as secret knowledge. That's some of my most favorite conversations. Yeah. Now, knowing that though, I typically am only visiting with those kinds of people that do that stuff. So rarely am I visiting about those things with people who aren't for one, I would always have to be explaining the foundation of that thing. Right? Yeah. So like, if I went to a traditional person at Blackfeet, or flathead or our Fort Belknap, or for Washington, I said, Oh, that story was a good story. And I'll buy it from you. I said that to a traditional person, even if they didn't quite like the term purchasing. They knew what I mean, though. Right? Like, they know they're like, but if I said it was saying, I'm gonna buy that from you, to someone who's not even in those circles, they'll be like, they always argued to be like, Oh, what's not for sale? Or like, gets, you can't get money? Or like, like, you don't even have 20 bucks. I'm like, Yeah, I'll buy that for me. And they'll be like, money, you're gonna use money for cultural things. And it's Shut up. Do it, even people listening to this are gonna criticize that statement? Well, yeah, but yeah, but they, they those who No, no, right. Right, right, right. Oh, sure. No, no.
Shandin Pete:And I think I'm getting getting closer to, I guess, those that are interested understand what, what that means. And how it how it operates. Especially and I can see now I can see now there's, there's differences in a lot of things. Like the the understanding of songs and how songs are, I don't know, guarded or protected or shared or not shared, how art is shared and not shared and duplicated. And how stories are shared or not shared all that there's there certainly there's a lot of differences. And how all those operate in venue and venue. And, yeah, good point venue. But I think overall, I think the the most important message is man, we got a lot of we got a lot of things to worry about that are that are internal, the external stuff. Yeah, I mean, some of its concerns me and I get upset a little bit but I mean, I should be like you said, I should be focusing that energy on something that that is a value internally, like what what are we missing? What can we how can we put that missing thing back into our communities? Not not really care about a whole lot about, like I said, the appropriation outside communities?
Salisha Old Bull:Well, it's like levels, it's like levels it reminds me of like a video game or something. Like if you do the one thing, everything will set on that one thing. So if you focus on the things that are important, because when it comes to it, it's just like, what was said before is a lot most like I would say like 90% or more what we're our efforts and our cultural pursuits is not it's not for us anymore, especially if we have kids, you know, it's been for kids and if you are doing the one thing, then all the sub things will follow. They'll fall into place. Right.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Plan to see exactly plan to see okay, concluding the thought you know,
Aaron Brien:the children Okay children are our future
Shandin Pete:the seven generations children
Aaron Brien:the children we happen to lead
Shandin Pete:the way we lead the way we are the ones we just given yeah
Aaron Brien:well, they show you the same, they should be like acapella. They're like from the same time.
Shandin Pete:They are. Yeah, one appropriated the other I think,
Aaron Brien:once appropriated. The colonizer
Salisha Old Bull:mismatch mismatch smells
Shandin Pete:like stink villain here. like sitting Camille, Aaron,
Aaron Brien:you guys don't know. Christopher Walken
Shandin Pete:knows to walk in theater. Yeah, no, I never did. No.
Aaron Brien:Oh, there's a skit where he's just someone Something smells good instinct, Phil, give me the cat's ass. Look it up YouTube it all our listeners. All right, look it up. Yeah. So before we leave, I want to say that, again, this is my reminder that most of what we're talking about, we don't. It's like, the people need to the listener has to remember, this podcast is kind of like a think tank. Yeah. So what we're saying is not gospel. Right. Do you have a differing opinion? Or a different viewpoint? That's cool. It's whatever. We're just blabbing and recording it.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, I think that's important. And to get back the value that we it's okay to disagree. It's okay to be wrong. And it's okay to be corrected. Yeah. And that's that's important. I would hope we still haven't had to happen yet. Someone to call up and right as a heated email to say baloney. I
Aaron Brien:think I think you don't even have to be Indian to listen to this. And I think we're talking a lot about insular stuff. But I think that's that's kind of what genuine white folk who want to know. That's what they want to know. They want to they just want to be it's like they don't want to always get the version that's catered to them. Right. Right.
Shandin Pete:Right. Yeah. Yeah. The pamphlet the tourist pamphlet. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:They don't want that elevator speech. Anything they want to know. And so I was thinking my buddy my old is in, in high school buddy. That listens all the time. Yeah. Yeah. leader. He's the one Oh, no, Peter. I told I said you. He was a preacher, some pastor. I said, he's a pastor. He's he told me he's actually I'm a, I just do a lot of work with my church, and he has done some similar type of work. So I apologize to Peter. Okay. I'm sorry. Sorry, Peter.
Shandin Pete:We got you all wrong. That's all right.
Aaron Brien:I mean, Winter Solstice. Hey, before we go, what to say let's do for the winter solstice. What was the big to do? Back in the desert?
Shandin Pete:It was a you know, as of course, it's the marker of the new year, in a way, you know, and a lot of times the, you know, the winter dances would start at around this time. That was that was the deal. Because you, you you got to get started you you're out right. So that was that was it.
Aaron Brien:Make sense? Yeah. Yeah.
Shandin Pete:I don't know what, what other tribes do or don't do. Do Sundance tribes mark, mark the, what's the marker? Well, this is another conversation, man. We're gonna spin off another
Aaron Brien:next weekend. We're gonna we got a couple this should have been a winter solstice. podcast has been
Shandin Pete:the winter solstice
Aaron Brien:decolonize.
Shandin Pete:You colonize the winter solstice. Reza.
Salisha Old Bull:Vacation. Vacation back. The dogs land.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, the dogs. First it's Dog Dog LAN hashtag dog lane. Their Coyote, the Turtle Island took coyote to the Sadie Hawkins dance. From that a union was formed an unbreakable union tech lead back going off, man. I know we need one of those. We need a Facebook Live.
Shandin Pete:All right. Thank you for joining us on this episode. If you want to learn more about what we're up to go ahead and search tribal research specialist in Twitter, Facebook, or YouTube and check out our other sites. And if you want to contribute to the show, go ahead and look us up on Patreon. We would appreciate your donation