Now tuned in to this week's episode of Tribal Research Specialist to the podcast, a podcast about tribal people, our communities and discussions on research traditions, we aim to uncover the true meaning of research methodological approaches that are currently operating in tribal life with implications for tribal communities, and avenues for knowledge production.
Unknown:All right.
Shandin Pete:So we're kind of back in a way we've been took a little break. And we're just, we're just lucky enough to get get a guest for us today. And man, we're, like I said, is we're winging it, man. It's like that. It's like that first day back at the gym. You know, you go hardcore. You're like, yeah, you're just pumping out reps, maybe. And, and then, the next day, your little wings are so sore. You can reach above your head. And I know Aaron's been hitting the gym. I know he's felt this felt the burn. And, you know, I can speak from my experience. But I know that Aaron's an accomplished bodybuilder. No, I don't think he's a bodybuilder. But he does have or had the gun show going on at one time. But man, you're getting old partner. You're getting old.
Aaron Brien:3838 38
Shandin Pete:that's like, a decade. close to retirement. Right. Great. 49
Aaron Brien:I can't time I get I find that the majority of my stories begin with when I was a kid, or Yeah, a few years back, there's nothing like I mean, there's nothing worse than them. And the last nothing adventurous you know, it's all adult stuff. Like I was watching my boy baseball. Like nothing wild, you know, nothing worse.
Shandin Pete:my credit score broke 100 Oh
Aaron Brien:yeah, like if you're talking like credit scores, and I don't know like Yeah, what kind of pins you like. Guy, guy? Yeah. Do you like a lot of flow in your pain? Yeah,
Shandin Pete:yeah, yeah. I heard interest rates dropped. I mean this
Aaron Brien:interest rate financing and then and then if you if the majority of the time is telling other men your age, the most recent bargain, you you got good thing. I like that writer. Guess how much I paid for it. Yeah. Like it's like that's
Shandin Pete:Yeah, yeah. Good. And that didn't go to Walmart to get that price. Back they did it online was that's
Aaron Brien:like a thing like it is it's Yeah, it's like, like bragging about what you got for cheap.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, it is.
Aaron Brien:It's like something nobody like nobody cares. flagging tape.
Shandin Pete:I save six cents on flagging tape.
Aaron Brien:I found out you know if you ever need flagging tape,
Shandin Pete:yeah. I know the place. You can save six cents on a roll.
Aaron Brien:And if you're if you're if you're to ask you, you've got asked for Trevor though. Away from Kent.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Ken will make you buy six rolls to get the six cents. Oh,
Aaron Brien:yeah. Trevor discount, but Trevor just gives it to you. Right? Because he by the roll is a repeat customer. He knows.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, that's, yeah, that's relationship building right there. Is that okay, networking, and networking. So that's kind of a big thing. You know that. You heard it. You've heard that you've heard the, the terminology relationality Have you heard that before? No. Never heard. Nope, not once. Nope. never read a book. relationality is a big thing. If you haven't been Is it a seeped into literature lately. relationality
Aaron Brien:has though.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. So this is this is a this is something that I want to explore today. If
Aaron Brien:you ever find yourself. Okay, at midnight? 1230. Yeah, knee deep in a j store. Search. you're downloading PDFs one after the other? Yeah, if you ever in that situation. Yeah. Sean Bean has you might come across the term relationality Did I say right?
Shandin Pete:I think so. Yeah. reciprocity.
Aaron Brien:Oh, he's done a thing. So you name you know, let's
Shandin Pete:not let's not let's not go down any list of words that begin with our but I do want to talk about this. resilience, we can say that. Yeah. resiliency, sure relationship, but this is this is the thing. relationality is Oh, wait, what do you got? He's gonna whisper some. Do it. Do it now. I think he said repatriation, he said it. Now. This is the thing. We've got a, an esteemed guest today. And he's going to talk to us
Aaron Brien:about special special guests.
Shandin Pete:We could say special, maybe not esteemed reason that made that category yet. Not esteemed. Special. And he's got he's got some spatially esteemed, he's got some things on his mind. And we wanted to give him a chance to let us know what's on his mind. Because he's been down the road. He's been down the red road. And he's a former student of mine, and he's gone on to studying law at a university called University of Montana. And, yeah, man, I want to hear what he has to say because it's this it's around this idea of relationality and I want to hear what what what is he got? I want to know what he's got. What's what has he been fed? Because this is not this special guest is not just some, some some nobody. Some run of the mill. He's not run of the mill. This guy is hard knocks he's from the rez deep, deep in the rez. And we will not give his geographical location. But I will tell you he is deep in the rez. No matter where he goes. You could tell just by the look on his face. He's still there. It don't matter where he's at. He could be in Boston, New York. But he chose Missoula, Montana. And he brought every raise brings perma. He brought it with him. So what do you got their partner? Let us lay it on us. And Dora and I don't want for having me. Yeah, I don't want you to I don't want you to read. I don't want you to read your index cards. I don't want no no script. We will bust it out here. We'll do that. Yeah. Nice frown Allah.
Bryan Dupuis:Yeah. I want to bring this interesting topic to about the fan Ghannouchi river, the one in New Zealand that got granted personhood. Yeah. And I've been learning about it from a legal perspective and Indigenous law. And so I thought I'd become an interesting topic being former hydrologists. And then yeah, having the historical preservation expert here. So I thought, you know, be kind of cool to look at from a cultural component as well. So I'm kind of excited.
Aaron Brien:Yeah. So let's just recap here, you're saying a river got granted personhood in New Zealand go.
Bryan Dupuis:So they basically break it down the rights. So they're considered like a normal like person, like you and me. And so they get, basically like rights and powers duties, all these things a regular person has legally. But they can't. They represent themselves because they can sue or be sued. So the Aboriginal people there have the rights to bring lawsuits on their behalf. And so kind of protects their water quality and, and other things. So Hmm. But there's some interesting questions with legal hood. Because people kind of ask, like, Well, what does that mean, you know, like, Can Can we bring assault charges on the river or, you know, like a vote? Or, you know, like, does it have the same rights as you and mean? So, you know, there's been some, some questions. So there's been some groundwork where they are, they kind of said that not all rights apply, but just ones that make legal sense. So it's not, you know, can't vote. Fortunately, in New Zealand, there's no corporate manslaughter, they said the river can only have charges brought against them that a company could have brought against them. But so, yeah, it can't be charged. But if there was manslaughter, they would still have to prove that the river did something wrong, like acted careless, or negligent in some some way?
Shandin Pete:Hmm. So things like Child Support are kind of not in the cards.
Aaron Brien:Can the river be? Can the river be on paper? As they say?
Bryan Dupuis:They actually claim it as an ancestor, as part of the Maori people. So I don't know maybe I'm not sure if it's actually enrolled, and per capsule.
Aaron Brien:What's this? What what why, why go this route? What does it do for the river?
Bryan Dupuis:Well, one, it kind of gives it protections for water quality protected from pollution. They have to let it slab language in there from the headwaters to the, to the sea. So they can have to let it flow and let it stay hole. But they, they basically saying because it provides life and stuff that it's kind of viewed as an equal or like an ancestor like them. So they, in their culture, they view it as a living entity. And in other countries, too, they kind of have followed suit and kind of consider the river like a mother.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, that's, that's the interesting thing. I think that it brings up this idea about, you know, relationality, and it's, it's kind of a buzzword, I suppose. But it does make sense in a lot of ways, but I think what may not be, I guess defined well enough for me anyway, is, is the is the spectrum of relationships that exist in the past, and, you know, that still exists today. Now, this idea of saying, okay, all these things that one might call a nonhuman, you know, like rivers, rocks, trees, landscapes. Yeah, we do attribute those, I guess, in a way in our belief as being a living being. But I don't know, to what degree that relationship extends, as far as human to human relationships are concerned. That's what you know, I kind of joke around a little bit about it. But you know, that the the seriousness of it, I think, is is is rooted in something that's pretty important. But when we, I guess, what's the senate think of some really, words to kind of spice this up, you know, when we co OPT human things and apply them to non human things? Then we run a danger in a way just don't just don't, okay. I can run a danger in in a particular way because I think it's difficult to really embody what that idea of relationality means, between human things and spiritual things and inanimate things. Those can get pretty confused especially for I would hate to say like the novice but beginner who's like beginning this try to understand Indian things. I think that can that that I'm curious to know. Um, yeah,
Aaron Brien:I'm curious to know who pushed this, like out of that native it was it wasn't it? Was it pushed by new people?
Bryan Dupuis:Yeah, the the Maori or the indigenous Aboriginal people, there were the ones that kind of push this through, cuz there's a lot of things that kind of came with the act like they acknowledged. The Crown acknowledged all the bad things that he had done. And that didn't respect the river, the relationship between the Aboriginal people and the river that they were so dependent on it for life and in their survival. And so it actually apologizes for it and then quit like $81 million in this lawsuit to go towards a bunch of different things. And it was the longest lasting lawsuit in New Zealand history to kind of terror to reconcile this whole dispute anyway. So yeah, the crown actually apologizes in the act. And there's a lot of things that go along with that make they make some acknowledgments of some wrongdoings that they did. Hmm. Interesting.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. So it was a Well, I mean, I guess, I don't know for sure. But there's there's, there's a purpose, there was a purpose behind, I guess, designating or providing personhood to a river, and that was to repatriate or how would you say to rectify wrongs? that that kind of what you said? Yeah. Okay. Thanks. Okay. Okay. So, yeah, I mean, I get all that that's, I mean, that's needed, those kind of things are, you know, it's progress in some some sort of way. But I'm trying to bridge I'm trying to bridge this understanding of how, and, you know, I think this is, this is typical, this is typical of humans. This is, I think it's one of our traits, one of our maybe one of our misgivings, but we, we, we try to apply humaneness to non human things, to try to gain an understanding of it. And I may be wrong, I may be wrong in that. But if you look at say, creation stories, there's a humaneness to the players, and the actors in those stories, that try to describe something upon the landscape, or to try to provide an understanding of a value system or you know, whether good or bad, but I don't know if this is, this is an I'm not gonna say that it's wrong or right, but I'm just trying to explore the idea of relationality. And how we apply that concept across things, especially when we start tangling it in with things like law, like human written law, it seems dangerous, you know, it seems dangerous.
Bryan Dupuis:It because laws created by man and yeah, as I say, in were the kind of spiritual I'm not going to say laws or rules or, or Yeah. or different, you know, I'd say, you know, wait, they weren't created by human. Right.
Shandin Pete:Right. So it would be like, like scripting down all of the norms, and in the processes that are important to engage in some sort of spiritual practice. write those down in a book, you know, like a prescription for process X to produce action. Why, and that is that some, I don't know, I guess for, for non non written societies, societies that don't have a written language. I guess that's pretty foreign to begin with. But what I guess you're you're, you're an Emerging Scholar in the, in the law books, I suppose. What what are some of the dangers that that can come about when when we want to do those kinds of things?
Bryan Dupuis:Well, one, I think there's just a misunderstanding, or maybe not a full understanding of certain cultural concepts by maybe lawyers or judges, you know, because only I think it's like 15% of the population. There's is this Maori indigenous population? And so, you know, I can't imagine there's a high number of them working in the legal field. So if they have to apply these cultural concepts or, you know, in the integrated in the law, you know, how well are they going to understand these or be able to articulate it? Let's I think that's some of the concerns too.
Shandin Pete:Right. Right, right. So Aaron, I want to ask you this, because you're in your you're on The interface of this type of I would say, I don't want to call it this this quandary, I guess, in a way, because you're trying to protect a resource. And we can tack on another word, a cultural resource, which includes a lot of different things. But we're engaging with law, federal law tribal, a lot to try to do those things. What, in your opinion, your expert opinion, what, what are some of the complications that come out of that, that are in this arena of attaching personhood to things like rivers, mountains, trees, etc?
Aaron Brien:Well, from I would say, from a cultural point of view, I can see a bunch of problems so that from a legal point of view, like a vantage taking using it and as, as an advantage in the realm of resource law, and like, environmental protection, I can see it kind of being useful a little bit. But the problem with the states is compacting water, like waters compacted, right, compacted, so, right, you would have to have two entities that recognize that, while three really fed state and tribal, which probably will never happen, right. But um, right. Culturally, the biggest problem I see is that the Crow, the crow belief is that water is not us, that it's something else, that it belongs to something else. So the belief is that if you're gonna interact with the water, like rivers and bodies of water, you you feed it, you have to feed it, pieces of meat, which implies that it's something other, that it's, it's a different deal. So I can see where like, deeply rooted cultural people would say, like, to call it to give it personhood would imply that we understand it. You know, and it kind of has this implication that it's like, I guess, and and I can see them getting kinda frazzled about that. But from a law point of view, I get it. I totally get it like, and I. And I almost think like, that's the way it was. That's the way they used it. They're using it as a form of controlling power. Because you go in there talking cultural stuff, they're not going to get you.
Shandin Pete:Right. Right, right. Yeah. I get it. But I think there's some details lacking in that's that that's that relationship, right. So there's some reason, you know, like you said, You feed the river. It is not the same. Is it the same reason why you'd feed say your child? Or no,
Aaron Brien:no, no, no, it's not. Like when you feed your kids, it's to keep them alive. Yeah, no, right. Yeah. When you've when you feed the river, it's, you're begging it. Yeah. And that's what you're supposed to say. Like, I'm giving you this so you don't take from me?
Unknown:Right. You know, my
Aaron Brien:kids are gonna play here. My kids are gonna swim. The things of you just protect my children don't they're not here to harm anything. You know? What? They say? Feed it good pieces of meat. Yeah. Something like that. We we, we the CRO believe that the water has beans in it. Beans, water beans. Yeah, well, we don't imply that they're like us though.
Shandin Pete:Right.
Aaron Brien:So there's a story of a guy named iron Frong. He was fasting in the middle of the Missouri River. And he was taken into water by some water beings. And they were eating. They're making him stew. And they told him the mom said, are the females and eat some of this? And the male water being kind of laughed, you know, and he said, he's a human. He doesn't eat what we eat. And then when he looked inside the stew pot, or whatever it was, it was human bones. Huh huh. And in so The guy says go out and kill a deer read back and she'll cook it for you. And then we'll have a meal. But that tells you like whatever's going on down there. I mean, it's not like us.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, that's, I think that's the curious thing. Good. Brian, you're gonna say some?
Bryan Dupuis:Oh, yeah, as I say, I just care about me. Like, you know, it's, I think it's in a lot of traditional cultures to respect the river. You know, you can tell when you're hanging out with some friends that aren't maybe culturally raised the owner being kind of crazy on the water like willy nilly, like, you stay away from me, you know, like, I'm not trying to mess with this, you know, I want to want to live today. Right? Right, right. Yeah, that's a cow is raised to you know, respect the water.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, well, profound. There's like a profound respect for the for for especially large bodies of water, like rivers and lakes, but especially rivers. But I also think it doesn't come from like this. Like, we're gonna respect the river. It's a kind of a fear. Yeah, that these things are powerful, you know, right. Like, you go and messing around out there. And you're gonna end up on a milk carton, you know? Yeah. Yeah. If they even do that steel. I don't know.
Shandin Pete:I haven't seen any lately. You never know. It's been a lot of litres of milk. So.
Aaron Brien:But if I was it, if I was to go missing in the water? Yeah. You'd be you'd be damn sure. What will float to the top? Is my rain. The rain?
Shandin Pete:Yes, the air was here. Plug. There's this. There's this. There's this journal. It rains.
Aaron Brien:These right in the rain. They're indestructible. And I don't I don't go anywhere without it.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, like it says you can write in the ring. It says what it says it does what it says no. Okay. So this is the important one. And I don't know if we've emphasized it well enough. But yeah, and I don't I would hope I would be. Is it remissed? I would be remissed I don't know if that's the right word. I'm gonna look it up. I would hate them to, it's gonna it's gonna work. I'd hate to be a to confuse this idea of relationality. Because I think you're right. When you said this idea of all respect to water, you know, you had a, you had a demeanor about you, like, you know, there's this idea that, you know, we're gonna, like water his life. And that's true and everything. And, you know, you want to have a, you know, you want to be a certain way toward water, and all all things on Earth. But I think in the end, the relationship is I would not say adversarial, but like you said, it's like, Hey, man, these things can can have the ability to really wipe us out. And you see that also with like lightning storms, you know, the president like,
Aaron Brien:even like, the way in the old days, men would treat their weapons. Right? There was like, special there were special places. Not everyone could touch them. You had to get permission. They weren't even in ceremonies, a lot of times they say don't bring weapons in here. I think it's similar. It's there's this profound respect the deep in borderline fear of like, these things can hurt you. Yeah, not gonna just mess with them. That's more relatable, you know, because everyone kind of, like gun safety and things like that. Because the cause and effect is far more direct. Right?
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:That's a phrase that right. I think it's um, yeah, just like you said with storms. Yeah. With but going back to that there's this kind of idea of things that are weather related. that are that are related. I'm using that word too much. But
Shandin Pete:relationality to water switch to a different our sea of like water.
Aaron Brien:Yeah. relationality and reciprocal and the rationale behind this relationship to prevent the retaliation. Yes, yes. Right. With a reverence for this reverence for this year's Revenant.
Shandin Pete:Okay, let's cut. Yeah. Alright.
Aaron Brien:So okay, so I think what I'm getting at is tribal people see, rivers, lakes, springs, Creek, stuff like that the same. Also, weather events, in some weird way are related to all of that. Right? So if somebody is like, if you're talking to somebody about We're going to give the river personhood that that person who's deeply rooted in the culture and the understanding of the oral history and as a practitioner might say, but do you know the river? Like, do you know that river with grey? You know what I mean? So it's not just like saying all rivers Well, you don't know that river. Right? Right, right. How the hell do you know what? rivers
Shandin Pete:that river is a serial killer?
Aaron Brien:So you've heard all these like, little stories, inaccurate anecdotal stuff. I don't know how that related this to storms and stuff. But anyway, where they'll say, well, you guys consume what we're hearing. But I don't want you going down here. Because restaurant over here. Yeah. But to say if you were to say we're giving the whole river personhood, try. I've never met any tribal group in the Rockies that thinks that way. Right. Right, right. That's gonna say like, from beginning to end this river is perfect, right? Yeah. They'll say we don't go over there because of such and such. Yeah, no, we cross over here. For this reason this right. Yeah. Okay, I'll pass the mic.
Shandin Pete:No, I'm on it. I get it. Yes, it's, let's let Brian pipe in here. Because I know he's got something to say. He does, um, let her rip.
Bryan Dupuis:Yeah, so I just kind of had a hard time understanding some of this, I really tried to look into it. One thing I thought was kind of interesting On a side note was they incorporate so much of their married native language in the law, that that's kind of some of the justification This is because that's how that it was translated. So like, you know, this is what if you're going to use the word, this is what you're actually saying. And so that was also some of the motivation and creating slaw. But they're lawyers, there have to be bilingual, which I kind of thought was a cool side note. Right. But yeah, kind of really. Like some of this stuff, they incorporate some hydrology aspects of it too, because they always talk about the rivers always moving, it's alive. And so as it meanders and stuff they have incorporated in there that that land was part of the river that's no longer goes back to the status that was before the law. And then as it that kind of takes over new land, that becomes part of the river. Right and but I did want to one side note, Aaron, he did spark a thought. The people the married ones that have a say in this and have control over it and can bring the lawsuits, they have to have a direct connection, there's a date on here, they have to be a direct descendant of someone that benefited or use the river from like some, like 1840 or some. And so they have to have like, some direct lineage in order to also exercise these rights.
Aaron Brien:Hmm, that's, that's interesting. Yeah. That's very interesting. So the rivers not allowed to meet any new people.
Shandin Pete:new comers, sorry. Yeah. Yeah, this is a standard.
Aaron Brien:I'm really having a hard time wrapping my head around it. No, I'm not against it. I just don't Yep,
Shandin Pete:standard. Yeah, but I think it needs to be fleshed out. You know, it's it's like the it's like the statement that I said, you know, Water is life. Yeah, that's true, I guess. But I think there's also the other aspect will water is also death. And I think that idea of how you would treat and your relationship to something Knowing that it's both of these things, I think has a lot of implication. And it's not. Yeah, well, that's saying, you know, we have this relationship with the water. Well,
Aaron Brien:and I think the personhood thing, and the whole Water is life movement, maybe are kind of born out of the same idea of using something as a mechanism for, for exercising some sort of right. Yeah, I don't necessarily think any one of those people would deny that there's some major flaws in those concepts. Right. But that's not the point. Right? Maybe I'm just guessing here. Maybe the point was not that like, yeah, there's gonna be some holes in argument on a cultural side. Right. legal side and in litigation. It may be it's pretty powerful. I guess. I don't know if Yeah, if it's working, isn't working.
Shandin Pete:That's what I'm,
Bryan Dupuis:I just got passed in 2017. So there hasn't really been any lawsuits that have been brought on behalf of the river and the river hasn't been sued. So it hasn't really been tested yet.
Aaron Brien:Here's what makes me skeptical of it is I'm, I fly the flag of tribal sovereignty and all that. But I really find it hard to believe that the crown is going to allow something that's going to be detrimental to them. Right. I mean, ultimately, they're, they're the ones controlling the environment, especially the political environment, that does the mean Maori people aren't major players in it. But if they're a rook, I mean, the crowns is the king and queen, right? Like, they're still in there, and they're heavy hitters. But so I'm curious to know, like, what is this member in like the was it maybe like eight years ago, and Canada apologized First Nations about the mistreatment of Indians? And everybody was like, pretty excited about it. But then really like, what is it give tribal people? Yeah, yeah.
Shandin Pete:What's the follow up?
Aaron Brien:Right? Not not a damn thing. Real skeptical of any time. I'm wondering, I'm skeptical anytime these major political powerhouses like US, Canada, I mean, Australia, Russia, like, if they're going to hand something. And I'm using the word the term hand something loosely, but to tribal people, like what's the catch? Yeah. Right.
Shandin Pete:Right.
Aaron Brien:And it's because if it's if it's personhood, that means that it's subject to all things in personhood. That means a beginning and an end.
Bryan Dupuis:Death. They talk about having a birthday, but they said, it's considered to live on forever.
Aaron Brien:personhood.
Shandin Pete:Right, right. Yep.
Aaron Brien:I mean, the thing you can't just make up like, well, now we're gonna have forever personhood.
Shandin Pete:Well, they're elves. So it's like Elvish. empires.
Aaron Brien:We should have, we should have a break, come back on and we should find a Maori person like someone, hey, let's do serious to know, I want to know what cultural Maori people think of it. All right, because just like in the States, a lot of these federal policies are pushed by non practitioners.
Shandin Pete:Right? Right. Right. You know,
Aaron Brien:like, like, This water is life stuff, where I said that kind of bad, but it's always like the political movement pushing it. And meanwhile, these cultural people are still doing what cultural people do. And, and, and no one's really, I mean, they ask him for like this real shallow and superficial kind of information, you know, they get what they need to get out and get back to, and they lobby for something. So I'm curious. I'm just curious to know, like, the people run Mari ceremonial life? If, if how much involvement there because on paper, they could say, oh, we're asking these people, but people that are in Native communities, they know they're like, that guy's a joke, you know, like, you know, why do you ask him? Like, why is he there? You know, doing that? Yeah. So So I'm curious because like, we all have those in our community where there's a face of the culture but then the people that are involved in in those things are looking at him going back, I don't even come around like why is he even there?
Bryan Dupuis:Interesting. They had to have a Maori perspective and kind of hear like, if they have any concerns or if they look see it as a success. You know, it can be anything Here, we want to say,
Aaron Brien:Yeah, I want to be clear. I'm not saying I'm against it. I just, I'm, I'm confused. I'm very confused.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Well, this is the thing, like, you know, like, Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.
Bryan Dupuis:I see like, yeah, like, Well, you know, just a little joke like, Well, hey, guys got like, you know, pull over like, you know, what? No, I pulled you over, you're all over the force back there. You know, like,
Aaron Brien:you're staggering. Yeah. In and out of the room. You can't be on your phone. Yeah. Yes, hey, if people if people are partying on the river, can the river get a DUI?
Shandin Pete:Man, I don't know. So this is, this is the thing, what you just said, and it's important, you're just talking about Aaron. And I don't want you know, like I said, you know, you got to support what we have, and the people who try hard and you can't criticize nobody, but we have to be cautious, and move forward in a in a manner that's going to benefit what what is important. And sometimes I think this is my thought is, we can get a little too performative. You know, especially with social media these days, where, you know, things can just get carried away, and they, they start to leave that, that, that, that area of where something should be sacred or something should be ceremonial and not broadcast and not, you know, put on Tick Tock video, or what have you. But, you know, for the for some people who are involved in, in, you know, protest movements, you know, they that serves a purpose to try to broadcast the whatever it is out to a wider audience. But I think when we start overlapping that with ceremonial things, if you run a danger of cheapening, I guess or you know, providing misinformation about cultural practices that need to be held in not necessarily secret, but you know, that have a place in society. And I think this this idea, it kind of starts to remind me of that, where is it? Is it just a performative action to really take place of something that is really rooted in a deep cultural way that really, we can't define on paper? We can't, you know, do any of those things that, you know, would, are probably more important to look at. And I think that's why we can kind of joke around about it, because oh, yeah, I got the river outside as a person now. So you got a, you know, the flood that at the at flood stage? Is it getting too noisy? I'm going to call them in, you know, and calling that river.
Aaron Brien:What about this? What have you got a river, and it dries up? Right, and then it fills up again, is that a whole new river? And the rights of that old river no longer gets lost in the new the new dude, they actually
Bryan Dupuis:have that. They said that in intermittent flowing waters from the headwaters, and so when it was flowing again, it becomes part of the funnel again.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, yeah, man, the crown, I wouldn't do this out bad.
Bryan Dupuis:I didn't realize over there New Zealand is all land is owned by the crown. So it's like, it's almost like they're all Indians, you know, like all their lands and trusts, like even non Indian people. Hmm. Yeah, I think that's one thing I never do.
Aaron Brien:A lot of other countries. I think that's fairly common. But I just I'm skeptical. I'm real skeptical. But for the record, let's Let the record reflect that this is three Indian dudes from the US talking about something on the other side of that. Yeah, yeah, that we know nothing about. Well,
Shandin Pete:well, now, just wait a minute now. There's been a river in Quebec been granted a big wad. Give me a quote. And also in the United States, the Klamath River. Now, I might be wrong, but I don't know, check my facts. But Klamath River has also been granted personhood. I don't know if that's a certain section or the whole darn thing. I don't know. And that's a pretty important one that you brought up that probably people don't think about, well, some stretches, you know, I don't know, it does turn into a different kind of person. I don't know. pretty important one. No. And that's where I think the discipline of you know, hydrology and oral histories and tribal Historic Preservation so Oh, dude, you know, no things
Aaron Brien:You know what's really bothering me though about like native people now like right now and I'm gonna be I'm gonna say this. I'm gonna say it. Get it out, man I get some might get some backlash but you know, I gotta say it again.
Unknown:Okay
Shandin Pete:this affirmation time.
Aaron Brien:deep thoughts with jack and yeah,
Shandin Pete:Brian, you're gonna do the next affirmation. Okay, go ahead.
Aaron Brien:So there's this whole like, adopted idea that everything's equal, right? Like there's all these it's like the moments the river, male and female we're all the same, right? We're not. No, we're not the same, right in fact most native people see the mountains especially the high country and the water as different things to different things. That's why they say when you go into mind you should pray before you go or you say you do this before you go. Because it's a recognition that it's something different. So this idea like this is across the board like over we're all related. Now. I don't know, man. I mean, you're not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying I'm question. Question. I'm going to question.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. And I had a day okay.
Bryan Dupuis:Brian Simmons like we're destructive in nature, you know, we're I don't know I just like compared to other beings and creatures in this world. Like we're just like nothing else you know, especially you just watch it wildlife. You don't have they respect each other's stuff as like humans, man. Like we were just some of the most disrespectful like, we just degrade everything. It's just it's just crazy. And so like, even compare the river to person heads almost offensive.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, I would almost be like, Well, actually, it should probably be more like how we see wildlife. The rivers probably more connected to like that like, yeah, it's this repetitive obedient. It's obedient. Yeah, like crow people would say like an elk doesn't have to be told what to do. Right. You know, it was told one time and it's done it. It does it Yeah. continues to do it. I don't know I just when I say personhood I think of people as you should. Right. I think we're idiots.
Shandin Pete:I think that's true with with with wildlife, too. Like, we went out to a site on on Lake one time for class and it was pretty windy. And this this little Osprey was really struggling to, to do its fishing, you know, and it finally got in there and it is blown all over the place. And it finally swooped down to godself nice little fish. Were watching all this. And then as soon as it got up off the water and into the air this Baldy would come by and just smash into him and took that fish away and took off. I thought, Man, look at that Eagle. What a jerk. You know, I know everybody kind of started laughing. Yeah, it demonstrates something that Yeah. And I think animals and us are very similar in some ways. We're not perfect animals are not you know, they're they're trying to survive. And if they got to steal from someone else, of course, they're going to do that. That's that mean to think that the animal kingdom is perfect,
Bryan Dupuis:I think is is is a flaw. And also, if you give them personhood, would you would you charge them with theft?
Shandin Pete:Yeah, back you lock that Eagle up? lock them up. file out affidavit of crime. Yeah, you're right. I mean, restitution. Do the ospreay.
Aaron Brien:This the granting of personhood to rivers, to me, kind of part of this whole movement of reinventing what it means to be native to so like, just like tribes in the Rocky Mountains. There's always been this thing like tribal people. We don't waste the buffalo we use every part. If that was the case, then as an archaeologist How do I explain all these huge deposits of Buffalo bone? Right? Can I use man? Yeah, they just get rid of them. Yeah. We do crazy stuff,
Shandin Pete:man. How many spoons would you have? If you made a spoon on every horse dude love every buffalo that was ever killed didn't have a spoon all this cuz I can't waste one part.
Aaron Brien:It's like are when they see when we take the life of an animal. We offer tobacco. I've heard this thing too. And then I think of
Shandin Pete:Buffalo jumps. Yeah. Do they do that for every animal.
Bryan Dupuis:So so basically like, so offering tobacco for all of them, like just go up on the cliff and just throw bundle tobacco.
Aaron Brien:You just you just got a bunch of tobacco and just be like, this is for all you. This is for you get tobacco and you're like Oprah, do. You might want to know. And you know, like, it's always, I don't know, when you watch people who are like practitioners of any of that stuff. It's really like, casual. And it's kind of like, I mean, sometimes they'll be like, we're gonna do this right now and do that, Nick. Yeah. But for the most part, it's pretty, it feels natural. And you don't feel like you're putting on a show. So right? Yeah, this personhood thing. It's like, if that's the case, I'd like to see it in the oral history, because maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the Maori have all these narratives of like how the river is just like them?
Bryan Dupuis:Oh, yeah, they actually have this saying that they they quote, it's a thing that they always repeat. It says river flows from the mountain to the sea. I am the river, the river is me. But they say it in their own language. But that's what it means translated English, it probably doesn't rhyme in their language. Yeah, probably. Maybe they just left out in English.
Aaron Brien:I'm curious to know how old that saying. We gotta we gotta get mind. Am I being facetious? Am I being too? Like negative? Well,
Shandin Pete:I mean, you have to be sometime I don't think we should shy away from being asked to be critical, but I think critical, but also respectful of, of where people are, if not
Aaron Brien:things, you know. And you're right. And I always think of people who don't know the culture, especially young native people, and they start reading stuff like this and that, and that's what they're learning. Yeah, it's one thing to know the culture and say, Hey, we're going to do this, you know, for me, meanwhile, everybody in the know, kind of knows, like, this is done for this reason. We're like young folk who don't know the names start getting involved in and be like, yeah, this is it. This is the case, you know? Yes. So sold.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. It becomes almost gospel, you know, that that mentality? Where Yeah, yeah. And it like, they're it's invaluable. They become invaluable. And then it that's destructive, in a way, because that gets propagated, but i'm not i'm not saying that this idea of personhood of things is wrong or bad. I think it's, I think it's worth exploring, because it opens up this topic of, you know, what is how do how do we define our relationship with certain things, and it's not a can't have a blanket statement. And I think we've discussed this before about how exhausting it would be to live like that, like, everything's connected all the time, we have this equal relationship in the man, it would be an exhausting and exhausting mental exercise to navigate from day to day thinking that
Aaron Brien:I think I don't know. I don't know. You're right. Because my job as a preservation officer, I'm constantly combating, I'm combating this universal approach would be like, well, your predecessor said this, and I'm like, why? Yeah. But also he had a different understanding of the culture. On my younger guy, I'm going to have a different approach, same story, different outcome, but also like that was a certain situation, this is a certain certain situation. So there's we're constantly combating and like this notion that it's like it's all the same and it's all feel good. And it's like, no, it that situation is different. And that's this, you know, and so by saying all rivers a person has to have personhood, I don't think that that's fair.
Shandin Pete:Right. Right. Rivers, not fair to the river, because what do you think? What do you know what the river knows? What do you know about what Yeah. Jenna personify that river? you're projecting your way longer and you you're projecting? Okay. Don't project your frustration. Project your frustration on the river. Dare you
Aaron Brien:want to reverse kind of like how a little kid gets caught up in divorce court? kids like
Shandin Pete:you got to testify against your dad. Why am I here?
Aaron Brien:What's going on? Can I just go my mom? Why What's going on? And then like the court, they're arguing the parents are arguing. Just like, I just push those creaking in. Back in the beginning
Shandin Pete:back in headwater days. Back when I was groundwater, so much easier.
Aaron Brien:rivers have siblings.
Bryan Dupuis:Yeah, I know like in Bangladesh, they consider all rivers personhood. So I don't know if they're all considered like one being or like, yeah, would they then be siblings? Like all related to each other? And then that means how do they reproduce rivers? Can rivers have kids? start digging summary. Name. This one
Shandin Pete:is getting complicated. This is getting complex.
Aaron Brien:Okay, one thing I noticed too, about Native people was like, some we've somehow adopted this thing that we're like, or like the Maori?
Shandin Pete:Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, I'm cool with them. I think their plight is similar to ours. Yeah. But they're far more unified and uniform culturally than we are in the States. You know? Well, that's
Shandin Pete:what we think I don't, I would, I would argue that and I think some of the folks that I ran into in that area would argue as well, but I think more unified than tribes in the United States or North America, just by the fact that the language is very common. Or, uh, you know, it seems to be unified throughout their their continent. Yeah, yeah.
Aaron Brien:Okay. Yeah, by that I'm wrong. I'm always wrong. Yeah, yeah. My question is for Brian. Okay, deep down. What do you think of it? Yeah. For personhood? Are you? Are you just saying that it doesn't have a place here in the States? Tell me when I'm hitting you with the hard dateline question?
Shandin Pete:Why are you gonna make it go?
Bryan Dupuis:from a cultural perspective? I definitely. You know, good, because it seems like there's like, some sense of under understanding where, you know, there isn't an understanding of, of nature. I mean, I guess you can understand certain limits, or certain rules or laws of nature. But, you know, I don't, I don't necessarily agree with personhood in that fashion. But from a hydrology perspective, like a conservation perspective, I like it. Um, just to be able to, I guess, in law, theoretically, to have the same protections as a person, it would be easier to, to protect it from other damage, or, you know, pollution or, you know, something like that, or, you know, putting in a hydroelectric facility that may disrupt it or, you know, something like that. So, I think, you know, in in those realms, I think it could be useful, but from the cultural perspective, I definitely, from a personal point of view, I don't fully agree with it.
Shandin Pete:So, so the current laws, I mean, they're probably not that great, maybe like Clean Water Act. That's not enough. is kind of what you're saying. Okay. So by x, I think I believe it's our tribes actually have higher standards in the Clean Water Act, isn't it? Yeah, just lately, are the standards under the Clean Water Act are set higher than some state standards? Let the record reflect that he
Aaron Brien:was referring to the CSAT.
Shandin Pete:Okay, I think we've got a court stenographer here. Yeah. So yeah, I think it's, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around. And I get that it's, it's probably in a in a far different arena than what we're kind of joking around about, you know, that. And I think he stated that up front, you know, there's certain things that what, what personhood actually means legally, I think is different than what we're kind of clowning around about.
Bryan Dupuis:Yeah, texting in there, too. That makes as much as it spends. So it always breaks even so it doesn't have to pay taxes.
Shandin Pete:Okay. Oh, no. Are you serious? Yeah. I guess as reading through some of the Act, I guess, I guess if it falls under the law, you would have to, you'd have to cover your bases
Aaron Brien:couldn't justifying this ridiculous notion.
Shandin Pete:Aaron's hot he's hot now. He's fired up. I mean, okay. Okay.
Aaron Brien:I think it could have just set setting the court. It could have just said it. We're going to grant him a special form of personhood in the sense of something symbolic and something meaningful. But yeah, to actually get down to it. Yeah. It we know it's not going to pay taxes.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:Like, is someone really going to be like, you know, why does this, why does this river not have to pay taxes, then it shouldn't be able to vote. It's like, Yeah,
Shandin Pete:man. That's the funny thing about law. I think that Yeah, what? I don't know. That's the funny thing about law. You really, I mean, it's all about the language. Right? It's all about what's down. And if you didn't I use that to your advantage.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, I'm curious. I'm curious like I get I'm I'm just messing around, but I get it that they have to put that stuff into here. But I'm really curious. They should have left it out. Just to see civil rights claim, hey, I want equal rights. Just river doesn't pay tax. Like part of me kind of wishes they would have left that just to see that guy who's probably.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, yeah, we all know.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, we know the guy. He's, he's got flags on his pickup.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, yeah. More than one more than one.
Aaron Brien:Yeah. And what's the deal with the don't tread on me flag cuz that's like Georgia State flag right. or someone's state flag, isn't it?
Shandin Pete:I don't know. I don't think so.
Aaron Brien:State like South Carolina and North Carolina or something that don't turn on me logo. is a Snake Snake cut up and that was some I thought that was someone's flag. like someone's stealing a flag. I don't think it's state. No. Okay, but I'm seeing them everywhere. I mean, we're all making a comeback. They're pretty. They haven't been really this. VO inside
Shandin Pete:job. Since What? What? Since winter? Yeah, say it again. You still there?
Aaron Brien:Did you lose me? I don't. Yeah, since on at john. Oh, there we are. Since when a minute it saved. My internet is strong. And then it like kicks off and stuff. Since john adams
Shandin Pete:says john at jokes.
Aaron Brien:Did the jokes dead. fansedge
Shandin Pete:says since Metallica is Black Album.
Aaron Brien:Oh, yeah. No, that was just a snake.
Shandin Pete:That was just a snake. It wasn't all cut up. I don't think we're hungry enough. I don't know what's going on. Well,
Aaron Brien:I mean, it was a revolutionary war thing. Right. I like it around that time. Sure.
Shandin Pete:expertise. Yeah, we're kind of we're kind of left. We kind of left you're
Aaron Brien:saying that. Like you're saying like that, like the personhood thing we know.
Shandin Pete:Yeah.
Aaron Brien:Maybe I should just shut up. Maybe you too know what you're talking.
Shandin Pete:Oh, no. Oh, no. gets to consider. What is it called? The Gadsden flag? I don't know how to say it. Yeah, it's not chopped up though. The snake is no, no, no,
Aaron Brien:I thought it was intact.
Shandin Pete:I think it was the Black Album. The Metallica Black Album where the snake was chopped up. I think it's the other way around. I don't know what do you know, Brian? We're off topic. bring us back in man. bring us back in us back like, man. Yeah, didn't you many moons ago.
Aaron Brien:And he always had that one kid that would say like, Did you guys you got the Black Album than the other kids like, dude, I've been listening to Metallica for like, way longer. say okay, this isn't like alright, who's more like, yeah, punk rock than the next guy. Anyway, I was that guy though. For the most part.
Shandin Pete:Okay, Brian. Let's, let's let you wrap us up. What I mean, Aaron already hit you with the hard hitting question. What dateline question? Yeah, one pick aside and you really didn't. I yeah, he wrote the fence. That's okay.
Aaron Brien:He got it. He was this rigamarole this wasn't like and like he ran for office. He just I counsel cedar Minh all the way
Shandin Pete:the Missoula county alderman, what's going on here? He wrote a fence. But he did it really pretty quickly. No, that's all right.
Bryan Dupuis:I mean, you got it, I just as kind of honestly felt I just, I, I guess I don't fully understand their their cultural perspective, and maybe there's more that would bring some understanding there. But I think from from my cultural understanding from from my heritage, how I was raised, I would ultimately, at the end of the day would have problems with this, I guess I was just trying to look on the good side of it, that would have some protections, some conservation aspects that, you know, would be beneficial, and, you know, the tribes that have a longer chance to sustain off of it, you know, if they still want to live a subsistence lifestyle.
Shandin Pete:So what is the future, then? I mean, if you could, if you could make a maybe this is harder to ask, but generally, some of the flaws if you could address them, you you advance to alderman of Missoula County, and then on to Supreme Court of the United States of America, just kind of a leap. But how does one fix How does one fix and address this fine line between the cultural living, which is largely, you know, not really written, it's, it's, it's, it's mitigated, and I guess you could say, controlled by a group of people, not necessarily a written law? How do we get the I get the spirit of the idea of personhood? You know, we want to try to, and I think it plays on some stereotypes that we talked about, about how things are equal, how, you know, it's this kind of romantic, and I'm not saying that's kind of what's going on here. But this romanticism about how people in the in the environment interact together, that really, you know, water is both life and death. And we have to acknowledge that equally. So how do you wrap us up here by, you know, telling us how, what do you see as the pathway forward? Go,
Bryan Dupuis:I kinda like so Aaron had to say, like, kind of maybe giving them like a special, like, carved out, like, maybe personhood, where they kind of acknowledge the cultural components, but they're not, like, in the law, actually, like a considered a person, like maybe how the Maori have it, you know, I like the concepts of it. But I think, you know, maybe that would be one of the directions to go is to, to maybe carve out some kind of special a little like legal niche, you know, that it would kind of protective, I mean, I guess there's like Clean Water Act and stuff. But I guess that doesn't take in the cultural components of, you know, tribes and their relationships with the rivers and the animals and plants and the rivers. And so we think maybe it can kind of go one step further, and kind of have that special spot where it kind of acknowledges that but doesn't create all these kind of legal confusions or, you know, jokes around, you know, something is a person, that's not a person. So, yeah, that would maybe be the direction I would try to go.
Shandin Pete:Right. That's a tough one. That's a tough direction. I don't know, I don't know, Aaron works in this area of the legalities of cultural preservation. And I'm sure he can give us a little blurb on the challenges of that, and then we'll wrap it up.
Aaron Brien:I would just say, Man, it's not the problem of cultural resource laws, nothing's clearly defined. It's all this kind of gray area. It really comes down to individual agreements between certain federal agencies and and in tribes. So tribes just got to set a standard and hopefully keep it but when it comes up, I'll keep you posted.
Shandin Pete:Let's do it. And what I'm going to try to reel in somebody from from down down that area, maybe they can set a straight because maybe we're all off. We might be all in we probably are. I'm probably are. We're just googling stuff, you know, reading thing. Yeah. We can get it get it straight. I think that would be good. I think that helped Brian out. And if we can, maybe Brian can come back on. We can get a get some lip service to we can get chewed out by some Auntie's down there and in Maori world there and I get older, bald out, man, let's get bald out. We'll get it on tape.
Bryan Dupuis:That's a cultural experience.
Shandin Pete:Let's do it. All right. We're out then. Hey, good. All right. Thank you for joining us on this. Episode. And if you want to learn more about what we're up to go ahead and search Tribal Research Specialist in Twitter, Facebook, or YouTube and check out our other sites. And if you want to contribute to the show, go ahead and look us up on Patreon. We would appreciate your donation