#30 - "This one time at the Vine Deloria Symposium" - A conversation with a Lumbee Scholar - Dr. Ryan Emanuel

In this episode, the TRS team have an interesting conversation with Lumbee scholar Dr. Ryan Emanuel. The episode starts with an  classic war dance song by the Fort Kipp Singers  recorded  around late 1960's or early 1970's.  The Fort Kipp Singers from  Montana are still considered one of the great singing groups among the Northern Plains. During the time period, Their singing style and songs made them in demand at pow-wows and celebrations in the Northern Plains States and Canada. The influence of their style of singing and songs are alive still alive today.

The discussion continues with Dr. Ryan Emanuel (Lumbee), a hydrologist and professor at North Carolina State University, where he studies connections between water, ecosystems, climate, and communities. He also studies environmental policy and environmental justice through an Indigenous lens, focusing on barriers to tribal participation in environmental permitting. He is an ex officio member of the North Carolina Commission of Indian Affairs’ environmental justice committee and has served on North Carolina’s statewide advisory council on Indian education.  Emanuel currently serves on the National Science Foundation’s Committee for Equal Opportunities in Science and Engineering, and the American Geophysical Union’s Diversity and Inclusion Committee.  He is also a member of the American Indian Science and Engineering Society’s Academic Advisory Council.  Emanuel holds a Ph.D. and M.S. from the University of Virginia and a B.S. from Duke University. 

The discussion  continues, where the TRS team establishes our connection with the Ryan's tribal group, including where the Norther Rockies tribes timelines intersect. This fascinating discussion highlights the span of history that the Lumbee and other east coast tribes have had with colonialism. Their history of contact began far in the distance past in relationship to the our Tribes here in Montana.  They are a great example of resilience in the face of many waves of oppression. Their reality also provides a mirror of what may be the fate of our Tribes here in the West if we take for granted the cultural resources that remain.

Learn more about Ryan and the Lumbee

NC Native Environment (my website/blog): https://nativeenvironment.weebly.com
Water in the Lumbee World (2019 article, free access): https://academic.oup.com/envhis/article/24/1/25/5232296
Lumbees on Somewhere South (2020 TV show on PBS, requires PBS subscription): https://www.pbs.org/video/its-a-greens-thing-9gxgcu/
Malinda Maynor Lowery on the KKK rout of 1958: https://scalawagmagazine.org/2020/01/ambush/

Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)

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Transcript

Shandin Pete: 0:44

Now tuned in to this week's episode of Tribal Research Specialist to the podcast, a podcast about tribal people, our communities and discussions on research traditions, we aim to uncover the true meaning of research methodological approaches that are currently operating in tribal life with implications for tribal communities and avenues for knowledge production. is recorded in this 1967 maybe, but it's a Ford Kip singers. You know what a Ford Kip singers right? Yeah, a little bit.

Aaron Brien: 2:13

I do. Yes. Yeah. Legend. Do you know the Ford killer? Yeah, Ford Kip.

Shandin Pete: 2:17

Legend fit their their legendary classic lot of songs still circulating around there. But very distinct style that was really became very popular. I think really high high singing it for KIPP singers. Were

Aaron Brien: 2:32

an 80s Classic Rock or poor Davey. Oh, boy.

Shandin Pete: 2:38

An 80s 80s.

Aaron Brien: 2:40

Yeah, has to be 80s.

Shandin Pete: 2:41

might not. I don't know if there's maybe that Yeah, yeah, I'd say they're close to if you go back a generation or a decade, like the beegees you know,

Aaron Brien: 2:55

well, then it's not funny anymore. Oh,

Shandin Pete: 2:58

I get it. I guess we're trying to be funny. I thought we were trying to be technical trying to be funny. Well, if you look at the pentameter of the beat, it's largely like the the pentatonic scale does class. Alright, go ahead, keep it keep singers. Yeah, I mean, people know them. They there they were of a claim even today. I mean, you got to get some black market albums of them. I think it where were they from? Ford Kip.

Aaron Brien: 3:33

I mean, we're just assuming people know this, man. You got to know where that is. You don't

Shandin Pete: 3:39

know where that is? Don't tell us about Ford Kip, their partner.

Aaron Brien: 3:43

I don't know anything about Ford Kip other than Ford Kip singers.

Shandin Pete: 3:47

Well, I'm poor Kip. Is isn't it? Part of the car Donna can think of the the reservation there now. What is the one in a way up in the north there North? North East want

Aaron Brien: 4:05

Fort Peck? Oh, yeah. For

Shandin Pete: 4:08

Fort Peck? Yeah. Yeah, right. Or Peck? Yeah. for him.

Aaron Brien: 4:14

But for Kip was really a fork outside of Fort Peck reservation. Yeah. Or was it in the middle? I

Shandin Pete: 4:22

think it is on is like in the lower lower right hand corner for Kip. Yeah. So the centerboard

Aaron Brien: 4:30

are like mostly a Cinnabon and Sue singers? Correct? Yeah. But for Kip was part of that. I think they're kind of part of that classic movement of power singers. mannery Yeah, ego was so Blackfoot crossing. Yeah. Old agency.

Shandin Pete: 4:46

Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 4:47

Big corner post. Yeah. Or big corner. Not big. Yeah. Big corner case.

Shandin Pete: 4:52

Stein put the post on there. It's a proper I mean, since on how old you're doing

Aaron Brien: 4:58

law. I didn't know if we're doing long for

Shandin Pete: 5:01

You're in your 30s you don't put the post on. You're in your 20s don't even Don't even mention it. Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 5:07

You don't even say singers any No, no. Yeah. See back in the day, you would say mandri singers. Yeah, yeah. That dropped. You don't even do that. No, no, it's

Shandin Pete: 5:17

no. Your age yourself right away. Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 5:21

Or do you say you you tape them? I got the I tape.

Shandin Pete: 5:25

Even if you didn't if you put it on your digital recorder, yeah.

Aaron Brien: 5:28

Even it's on your phone and you still refer to it as taping.

Shandin Pete: 5:35

crepes. Anyway. Yeah. So we got a guest today who have known for a number of years. And who is not from Fort Kitt, who is not, let's emphasize not from Fort Kip. In fact, he's from quite a distance away, and has a very unique perspective that I became very interested in. And this is closer to Fort Pitt. Fort Pitt. What where's that at?

Aaron Brien: 6:00

It's closer. I said, It's close.

Shandin Pete: 6:02

We don't really know where it's at. But we know it's close

Aaron Brien: 6:04

to the Ohio River. So confluences Oh, really? Yeah. Wow. Okay, well, it's the outbreak of smallpox happened at four pick four pick up for Pip. What were PIP is different.

Shandin Pete: 6:16

Is it PIP or Pip? pit like Pittsburgh? Pittsburgh, alright. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, so um, yeah, he's a he's an acclaimed scholar. I'll, I'm gonna give him that title. don't necessarily know what that means. But isn't that what everybody says? Like the MC? when they're talking about somebody? They don't even know them? There's a champion dancer in their own right and you don't even know him? won many a contest and they have no idea. Well,

Aaron Brien: 6:48

no. He's, he's well known in Indian Country. Yeah. And his efforts champion championing the rights of indigenous people. Yeah. Which doesn't mean any like it, you can add anything to that good.

Shandin Pete: 7:06

So we're gonna, we're gonna go MC pow, MC style. We've got Ryan. Dr. Emmanuel, is it he manuelle Emmanuel. How do you say say Emmanuel Emanuel. Okay. And so

Aaron Brien: 7:23

unlike our Hebrew Brethren, who would say Emmanuelle, you just you just see manual?

Ryan Emanuel: 7:33

I do. And I think it just might be my, my Southern enunciation.

Aaron Brien: 7:38

I believe the manual, it's a manual.

Ryan Emanuel: 7:44

It is a it is a surname that that we trace to the time that my family started speaking English, really. So there's that yeah, that name has historicity associated with it,

Shandin Pete: 8:00

holy cow.

Aaron Brien: 8:02

Now historicity that? Ironically, that was the name of my first hip hop album historicity?

Shandin Pete: 8:16

Yeah, I'm now Ryan comes from way across the continent. The what I like what I when I think about this area, I think, man, these guys, these these tribes over here were the were the ones who who were at the interface of a lot of the things that the US Rocky Mountain tribes are dealing with or have dealt with more recently. So they have a long history of, of interactions with I don't know, what do we wouldn't call them now. immigrant folk settlers. Just say what, okay, okay. Yeah. All right, we'll do that. A long history of interactions with them. And I became really interested in his perspective and their, their own his own tribal pursuit of of understanding of their history. And I thought, Man, this is a good opportunity to have Ryan join us and have a little chat about some things that we've been back and forth thing a little bit through email, not he manual e mail. Oh, I tried to try it. I got an email for for my new webcam and No, okay.

Aaron Brien: 9:29

So I'm excited because Shawn Dean kind of like, told me a little bit about what you guys kind of been chatting about. So yeah, I say we just get right to it. So

Shandin Pete: 9:42

let us so preface this Ryan with I mean, what, what's what's the interest in particular that we've been talking about? Give us a little context.

Ryan Emanuel: 9:55

Yeah. So a couple of weeks ago, you and I started An email thread about the process of, of governments making tribes basically taking taking people who may or may not have been historic allies or enemies for that matter, right. And, and putting them together, either deliberately in the case of making reservations, or sort of indirectly, which is the that's the context that I come from. So people who are who are fleeing the first wave of colonization, yeah, kind of end up in these marginal lands in the southeast, marginal from the perspective of the settlers and the colonists. Right. And so regardless of the way that these peoples come together, you know, they have a way of creating new new identities that are still they're still indigenous identities, but they've, they bear that mark of colonialism, you know, that, that you've kind of been been shoved together and in some way, and you have to kind of make a new identity sort of in the midst of this scene, sea of colonialism all around us. Right.

Shandin Pete: 11:16

Right. Right. So what's what's interesting about that, or I guess, a couple things that just to demystify, or tell me to understand, so when when these tribes in your area kind of band together or got forced together, however that happened, how unique or how separate were, your cultural pursuits are with it fairly similar. I guess that's what I'm kind of getting it.

Ryan Emanuel: 11:39

Yeah, so I'll preface this by saying one, I'm not a real historian.

Shandin Pete: 11:48

I thought you I thought we're gonna have we're having a historian on today. We got the wrong person.

Aaron Brien: 11:53

Now. I'm just kidding. I think we just log on.

Shandin Pete: 11:59

Now, I'm kidding. Okay, keep going. So

Ryan Emanuel: 12:01

I'm not a real historian, but also this happened more than 300 years ago. Okay. Right. And, and we've lost a tremendous amount of knowledge in that time. Yeah. What we do know is that these were all people who were of the Eastern Woodlands cultures, they came from three very different linguistic groups. Our ancestors are made up of people who spoke siouan languages like SRA, and the PD. Okay. People who spoke iroquoian languages, so Tuscarora. Oh, right. And a group of people along the barre costal margin of the Carolinas. Yeah. who are who are usually called the Carolina algonquins. Okay, these were the Hatteras Roanoke. They didn't they didn't identify as tribes, right? At that time, at the time of contact. They they lived in, in towns. Okay, so these were, these were independent towns, and and they don't, they don't really fit the model of the stereotypical tribe. Right. But these were all people who encounter these ways of colonialism that started in the 1500s. Well, so like North Carolina was, was invaded pretty early on. Well, a lot of people don't sort of think about it as an invasion. But you know, it was, yeah, essentially, there were massive epidemics that swept through the region in the late 1500s. And killed off a large fraction of the native population in that region. And by the early 1700s, there was there was all out war between the remnants of those native nations who lived in the eastern half of what's now North Carolina. Yeah. And, and the colonial powers in North and South Carolina. And so though those events, your disease and also exploitation through fair trade and dependency on sort of these trading posts, yeah, just really shattered native society in the eastern half of what is today North Carolina. And so if people people went where they needed to go to survive, and these tended to be sort of the margins of their, their, their tribal territories, and one of those places is what is now Robertson County, a home of the lumbee people.

Shandin Pete: 14:46

And that's, that's what you guys call yourself today. lumbee Yeah,

Ryan Emanuel: 14:51

so lumbee is a is a geographic place name. Okay. That is that that's what we understand to be our ancestral name for river where we live and where we have spent 300 years sort of building a new a new identity as a as a tribal nation.

Shandin Pete: 15:12

Yeah. Holy cow 1500s the 1500s what was what was the crows up to? In 1500? Aaron?

Aaron Brien: 15:22

Oh man. Well nobody spoke English.

Shandin Pete: 15:32

Okay, yeah,

Aaron Brien: 15:33

we were I think they say the first crow Indian spoke could speak English was in like the 1880s 1880s. The late 1870s.

Shandin Pete: 15:45

Now the some of the earlier languages weren't French. It was English first uses your what you're saying?

Aaron Brien: 15:51

I when I say English, I just mean white people.

Shandin Pete: 15:56

All right, we got another non historian here's so could be like German. Okay. And that could be learned another language.

Aaron Brien: 16:06

Yeah, yeah. Non crow. Well, maybe there's probably some crows that were probably knew enough in French and and enough in English, but right in the 1500s. I think we were large largely untouched. You know, that was pre horse. That was pre horse here in these area. This area. In our region. Yep. Pre horse was still

Shandin Pete: 16:28

wandering around on foot.

Aaron Brien: 16:31

Wandering, wandering? Just after just pillaging. They know. Man, it's hard to say because traipse around. Yeah, one of our migrations to the west happened right around 1300.

Shandin Pete: 16:46

That's what I was wondering. That's what I was wondering. So the where would you place it roughly just to estimate the end of it, or the beginning of it? Or transitionary?

Aaron Brien: 16:57

It sounds? It sounds like they they place it right in the middle of the 1500s. But I don't know how that numbers ever determined if it's like, because if it's archaeological, that makes things kind of hard, because it's hard to identify other than pottery, right? It's very hard to identify like, that's a CRO artifact versus a su artifact, whatever, you know, yeah. pottery, there's two types of major potteries in the West would just show me and then the other categories, crow hidatsa. So Wow. And I know linguistics has some methods of dating language and things. But yeah, I'm not really like good at that part. I mean, linguistics is like, it can get pretty down and dirty, you know, how they're able to determine age and language and archaic languages versus like modern, modern, modernized. Yeah. language. And, yeah, so I know they do some of that. So there's kind of been this determination of like 15 mid 1500s is as one migration.

Shandin Pete: 18:03

Interesting. Yeah, that that kind of blows my mind. You know, the the first contact or where the major disruption started to happen over in your guys's territory there, Ryan was 15 hundred's that just blows my mind because we, at least I do I think of these times as very, you know, very, very far, far in the in the distant past. It is, it is in a way, but we don't even we we don't even comprehend it as like, like this exemplar, this time of where things were fairly undisturbed from other I think for us in the West, it was I mean, for the most part, there was I think there was protal effects of expense of colonization, but I don't think we were fully aware of that.

Aaron Brien: 18:49

Yeah. But I do think the Midwest for sure, was feeling the effects of what was happening right in the east, but for the most part, on the Missouri River, every we were still kind of doing our thing. Yeah. Yeah. At least I'd like to think so. I mean, I'm sure down to the minute you can make arguments, but

Shandin Pete: 19:09

yeah.

Aaron Brien: 19:11

So we're talking like South Carolina,

Ryan Emanuel: 19:14

North Carolina today, North Carolina, South Carolina. Right it? It's right on the south carolina border. So, but, you know, we had we had Elizabethans running around the coastal parts of these territories taxed. And there's a there's a well documented well documented trip by two coastal algonkian men to London, in the in the 1580s. Like during Shakespeare's time, wow. They spent they spent about a year in London, working with this, this guy who was sort of a bidding column scientists Back then I think they were they were natural philosophers. Yeah. He, he, he had come to the, to the coast of present day North Carolina with this first group of of would be colonizers. He he actually took pretty good notes. And people are pretty grateful for all of his, his his documentation. And while he looked while he was in London with these guys, they they taught each other their languages. And he helped to create a written version of their algonkian dialect. Unfortunately, almost all of that material was lost in the Great Fire of London. But there are some scraps that survive. And I've seen photocopies of some of these were, what one of the one of the algonkian men manteo is like scribbling in the corner of this, this parchment in in the script that they created for their own language. And it translates to King manteo was here. Earlier graffiti. Yeah. So like, all of these, like super weird interactions, and it and it was a really long time ago, you know, you've got Shakespeare and Elizabeth and all this stuff, England, but they're kind of bleeding over military expeditions and colonists into into the territories of these coastal native communities. They're, they're looking for gold and gems, and they're there. They're kind of setting off these waves of disease. And yeah, and just really disrupting, even before they physically arrived. They're kind of starting to, they're already starting to disrupt native society, along the eastern seaboard.

Shandin Pete: 22:09

Wow, it kind of makes me It kind of makes me feel like you guys are kind of like vampires. For some reason. I don't know why. What's that show? Tom Cruise in the vampires. Like you guys are vampires. Those are vampires. I mean, they've been guys have been you guys seen the beginning of it?

Aaron Brien: 22:29

I mean, your guys, what's messed up is like, at least in the last 100 years, I think natives in the West could learn something from observing what was happening. Yeah, what had happened out there. But we're seemed like we were kind of in denial, especially in the last 50 years in denial that our situation was a little different when? I mean, maybe it was, but the outcome was largely the same. Yeah, you know, yeah. And we refuse to look at other tribes to say, hey, what, what happened with them? or How did they were able to still maintain some remnants of who they were? I'm not sure. If we in Montana can survive. With any culture left, after 400 years, or? Yeah, 500 years? You know what I mean? Because we've really only been dealing with it for 150 years. Yeah. And we're pitiful.

Shandin Pete: 23:27

Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 23:28

Yeah. You know, and so, man, I add another 100 years to that. Yeah. Then another 100 years. Like what? Yeah, so in a lot of ways. It's commendable, man. It is to be able to say like a tribe can even say their own name. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 23:50

that, you know, that was Wow, that was my thought. Exactly. When we were chatting about this. I think it was over in. One of those, I think was that vine deloria symposium, we were chatting briefly and I got to think for the record. Okay, well,

Aaron Brien: 24:03

that sounds really boring. Hey, hey, hey, ladies. chatting, Vine deloria over a crumpet you know, it's crazy. I never thought hearing the name vine deloria

Shandin Pete: 24:23

and symposium, it's

Aaron Brien: 24:25

no it's like the widest he's like the Godfather, you know, and it's like, God bless

Shandin Pete: 24:35

this act this this symposium Yeah. Is is unlike any other that have attended. So anyway, well, we can talk about that later. But

Aaron Brien: 24:44

we were chatting. Okay, so I know I only hear white people talk about vine deloria. stone

Shandin Pete: 24:52

that in Black Oak speaks, right?

Aaron Brien: 24:55

Yeah, I've heard some Indian. Okay, good. All right, is testing the water there. Bye. deloria I've never heard an Indian like I've never heard like a wrestler just like, quote vine. deloria he read that vine delorey

Unknown: 25:09

Why? Cause

Aaron Brien: 25:15

Oh, yeah, me too, bro. I can't wait to Scott Mama. He's a very quotable guy. Right. Okay, let me get right into Lauria both. I agree. I want to say I agree. I'm just saying, you gotta admit the statement, he's just clowning. We were discussing this at vine. deloria is a very white statement.

Shandin Pete: 25:53

We can agree. That's can we agree? That's gonna be the title of this episode. We were discussing this at the vine deloria symposium, or our Interview with the Vampire Which one? Dragon. I just want I want the record to move. Yeah, point. Point those things out because Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 26:20

no. Okay, thanks.

Shandin Pete: 26:24

Yeah. Anyway, I was remarking on the same thing you remarked on and it it perked my ears? Is that? Is that okay. Is that resonant? For you perked up? No, you shared a common interest we did. And my thought was this, you know, we should look at these Eastern tribes, us in the west or in the middle part of this country. And, and use that as a benchmark for what what could happen? Or what we may need to do to to hang on or reverse the clock? Because, I mean, just the that statement alone that Ryan said in the 1500s is when this all started now, is that when it started that is that when you guys first kind of had contact? Or is that kind of where things were at its maximum of destruction?

Aaron Brien: 27:17

No, I would say like 14 you guys, were you were right after

Shandin Pete: 27:22

right after the Mayflower or is it? Yeah. No, no. I don't know. I just get some get some time like,

Ryan Emanuel: 27:31

good. You know, the Spanish, marched a military expedition through the entire southeast in the mid 1500s. Say, came all the way up into North Carolina. The Cherokees documented the you know, these companies adores marching through the mountains. Yeah. And I don't remember what decade of the 1500s but so they came before Elizabeth ends, but they didn't. They didn't stay. I might have put up a I think they built like a military outpost, but yeah, they didn't have the footprint of the English. Right.

Aaron Brien: 28:07

Right. Hmm. So early 1500s. There's non native people there. So we're saying garlis of who? Yeah. Wow, man.

Shandin Pete: 28:16

Wow, that's wild. That is why it blows

Aaron Brien: 28:19

my mind. Like, I feel like a tourist right now.

Shandin Pete: 28:21

I know. Me too.

Aaron Brien: 28:22

I'm like really staring. Like, I'm just like, fathom, like, because my focus has been so much the Rocky Mountains and especially the Northern Rockies. And I'm just like, I'm Can you guys see my eyes? I can see him. Yeah, they're very tight. So I am. 1415 Yeah. 15th. Man.

Shandin Pete: 28:46

Yeah, this is really interesting. It really interesting. And that's why I think the the the perspective of Ryan here as a, as a scholar in western academics, and as a, I mean, he says he's not a historian. I don't know what that means. But I mean, he knows a lot more than I know about his area, which should be true.

Aaron Brien: 29:05

Well, we'll never have a historian on the podcast.

Shandin Pete: 29:07

No, we can't. That's not because one of our stipulations we just, yeah, we just said, yeah, we

Aaron Brien: 29:14

said no, if you're if you're next to your name is historian. You're coming out.

Shandin Pete: 29:21

Yeah. So this is the interesting thing that you were you were you were mentioning, because it is it is kind of a common thing that happens with tribes is it it kind of perpetuates a little bit of or it breaks or perpetuates some stereotypes, this idea of tribes banding together to survive these waves of newcomers, to put it nicely, I guess what one of the things that you you're you're interested in Ryan is this idea of? Well, I don't know if I imposed this idea inserted into your conversation. But this idea of traditional enemies, right? So that that idea of the traditional enemy, you know, was was imposed upon me by my folks, by my community. They said, Oh, yeah, those, those guys up there, those are your traditional enemies. And as I grown into a person who thinks for myself, I guess an adult, you come to find out that that's not necessarily true. For the most part, I mean, sure, wars and alliances came and went, but to have traditional enemies, like people you just always hate. That seems like a very Western concept that came in later. And why that attached on to us and our thinking and thought, I don't know. But I'm not sure if that's what you said earlier, after all of our banter, how that plays into what you were, you were chatting about,

Ryan Emanuel: 30:59

no, but I, I really appreciated in your earlier correspondence, when you brought that up, because you also introduce this idea that that alliances and and opposition's are temporary and people people adapt to whatever they're facing at that time, or in that generation, right. And it made me reflect back on the things that happen to my ancestors. And it and it is kind of strange when people say, Well, that doesn't sound very plausible that that that folks who spoken algonquian language would band together with folks who spoke one language, then, you know, in the same swamps, right, you're like, Well, you know, they were both they were both base, and people who spoke not only spoke a radically different language, but also have very different values about about what was going to happen to their land. Right. And, you know, and then in the next few years, yeah, so yeah, and that.

Shandin Pete: 32:04

That becomes I think the more important thing is is this idea of alliances yet that I mean, so there's some there's been some treaties and some brief treaties among among our tribes that have lasted, you know, only a few minutes, and there's some that have lasted, you know, a decade or so. So that is a very fluid concept. And the idea, and I think we've talked about this before about the idea of, you know, embracing that, that a tribe is is always going to be your enemy, no matter what I think is doesn't doesn't align with the, with our own oral histories and why that became so prominent, I don't know. So I'm interested in this name, the lumbee. It's a geographic name, he said. And so what, what, what tribal groups fall under that because I'm not aware.

Ryan Emanuel: 34:08

So the I will give you my understanding, okay. And, you know, if you ask 10 different lumbees, you might get six different, you won't get 10, you might get six different answers. Yeah, so that the origin of that of this name is is historically contested right? There. There are some who say that lumbee is the original ancestral name of the river, and that he suffix that that he sound is common on a lot of the rivers in our region. And the linguists say that that's that that belongs to the Ceylon language families. So all these all of these rivers in the in the southeast that have the E sound on the Yeah, those those were were rivers named by suwan speaking peoples in the southeast. And so people say this is the ancestral name of the river. Some people take it a step farther and say that we remember that this translation is is dark water, and we are people the dark water. Hmm. And that that goes back to the fact that our river and all the rivers in this region are Blackwater streams. I don't know if y'all are familiar with that.

Shandin Pete: 35:32

Because of the carbon, all the carbon and water right from the swamp.

Ryan Emanuel: 35:36

Yeah. Exactly. They have their headwaters in swamps and wetlands, they don't come out of the mountains so they are full of dissolved. organic material in the water looks like tea. It's a really beautiful car. So they people say this is this translates to people the dark water. I I don't know if that's Yeah, I will say that that's that that's contested, but there are also people who say that did the name of this river is lumber river, like the wood? Oh, because the state of North Carolina declared that was the name of the river in the year 1809. Hmm. And he said, Oh, you're just miss hearing it and and trying to make it sound Indian. There are lumbee people that say no, the North Carolinians misheard it. Oh, and and called it lumber. But this is this is contested, right. It was also called drowning Creek by colonists. Hmm, I'm not sure the origins of that. Yeah. So that is, either.

Aaron Brien: 36:57

That's how you find it as lumber River. Hmm.

Ryan Emanuel: 37:00

Yeah, if you look at if you look at geographic place names and Apple Maps or Google Maps, you will look for the lumber River. lumber River. Yeah. So that's the

Aaron Brien: 37:12

Go ahead. There's a town called Lumberton.

Ryan Emanuel: 37:15

Yeah, that's the kick. That's the county seat last minute and the town is named after the the settler name for the river.

Shandin Pete: 37:25

Right there.

Aaron Brien: 37:28

Where do you live? We're like what's what's? What's your address? Yeah. I'm looking on the Googler.

Ryan Emanuel: 37:37

I live in Raleigh now in the state canggu hours north, hoity toity. So my, my parents both grew up close to the river. My dad grew up in a lumbee community called saddle tree. That's north of Lumberton.

Aaron Brien: 37:59

That's cool. Yeah.

Ryan Emanuel: 38:00

Yeah. Saying that saddle tree swamp is one of the tributaries of the lumbee River. Yeah. And a lot of the lumbee communities are named after the swamps that they sit near.

Shandin Pete: 38:13

I see.

Ryan Emanuel: 38:14

I see. My mom grew up outside of Pembroke, which is a small town upriver from Lumberton. And that's the site of the university that our ancestors founded in the 1880s.

Shandin Pete: 38:30

What your ancestors founded the university?

Ryan Emanuel: 38:33

Really? Yep. Yeah, we got $500 from the state of North Carolina in the 1880s to create a teacher training school

Shandin Pete: 38:45

has the first tribal college.

Ryan Emanuel: 38:48

It was it, you know, so it doesn't doesn't fall into the tribal college world. Right. It was eventually absorbed into the University of North Carolina system. Right. So the closest thing I know, to that school, which today is called UNC Pembroke, yeah, is Northeastern State University and Oklahoma Yeah, as sort of a similar history of its founding and then getting absorbed into the state university system. Yeah. There's a note Yeah, founded by our ancestors in the 1880s

Shandin Pete: 39:23

that is crazy. There's a number of colleges over there in the East I think that were created to educate Indians right? And then we're eventually converted over I guess, or what have you, you'd I just got to think and someone you're chatting, you know, we have we have markers here we kind of think about like the introduction of the gun. kind of know when that was introduction of the horse kind of have a good idea when that is, and then you know, like the coming of some religious sect like the black robes or whatever, then the different waves of disease. Seventh Day Adventists Seventh Day Adventists Yeah, what what? Whichever wave came to your, your neck of the woods six day what what are some of the key markers in time for you guys? I'm really curious.

Ryan Emanuel: 40:19

Yeah, that's, that is interesting to think about. So after the disease epidemics and the the war that I mentioned,

Shandin Pete: 40:28

was those ones that date again just roughly don't have to be exact, but around

Ryan Emanuel: 40:32

early 1700s was the major war in the region is usually called the Tuscarora Cold War. Yeah, there were there were other peoples involved. Besides the Tuscarora nation,

Aaron Brien: 40:46

what's the date? You guys place contact that? Is there a date that you're in your region for contact?

Ryan Emanuel: 40:54

Not not there. There's not a single date. Starting in 1584. If you skip the Spaniards and go straight to the English 1584 the Carolina colonies were declared separate colonies in the 1600s. And there was a steady trickle of colonists into North Carolina during the 1600s. Yeah, our barrier islands kept a lot of people away because there's no, North Carolina doesn't have good natural harbors, like the Chesapeake Bay or like Charleston. So the Chesapeake Bay and Charleston to the north and the south were the epicenters of colonial expansion after that failed attempt with the Elizabethans in the 1500s. Because, I mean, they were trying to sell their ships through these tiny little inlets.

Aaron Brien: 41:57

Are you talking like what they call it? The outer rim?

Ryan Emanuel: 42:00

Outer Banks, Outer Banks? Yeah, those that's those are barrier islands. And they, they protected native peoples during the 1600s. But you got this trickle of fur traders, land speculators and others coming in from the north and south throughout the 1600s. All that came to a head with this war in the early 1700 1712 1715. Wow. Yeah, so are our people were living on the lumbee River by the mid 1700s. Okay. My, I told you that my Emanuel name comes from when my family started speaking English. Yeah. So our, our first ancestors who spoke English lived on one of these coastal rivers, the Roanoke River in the early 1700s. All we know about that name is that the name manual, not with an E, the name manual was associated with, with with a settler who lived lived nearby. And I think it's very, it's fairly common for people to kind of adopt the names of Yeah, of English speaking. People. Yeah. When when they start speaking English, but they were many other families sort of migrated through the remnants of their old territory and ended up 150 miles south in the swamps of the lumbee River eventually. And along the way, somebody one of my ancestors decided to add the E to the beginning of our name.

Shandin Pete: 43:51

make it sound cooler.

Aaron Brien: 43:55

Pretty arbitrary. Yeah. You know, like just the name like, just up until recent, like, there's even stories of people during World War Two. Like, there's a story of a guy. Easy there. mandana hidatsa, where a guy saved him, either at D day, our Battle of the Bulge, and then he just took the guy's last name. Wow. He just like it was like a non Indian last name, you know?

Ryan Emanuel: 44:25

Yeah. That's interesting. And I don't know the our oral history doesn't include the circumstances by which our ancestor took this person's name. I don't know if they were if there was some family relationship, or if something happened that inspired them to just like, say, I want that name. I we don't know. Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 44:51

that one. And the truth is, they didn't need a reason. Yeah, it was just as foreign to probably have the last name manual versus the He or no he so it's not it's not something they're married to, you know? You know, again, wow, it's kind of sounds cool. You know? Maybe I don't know. Maybe they met somebody who had a man the manual last name is like we want to be different than them or, yeah, maybe they owed someone money could have been. I have a question though, before we get going because we're getting way too serious for me to want to do this. Can you do the accent of the Outer Banks? People from other know what I'm talking about?

Ryan Emanuel: 45:36

I know what you're talking about. It's called the holy toId. Yeah. I can't I can't really do it. It is bizarre. What is this?

Aaron Brien: 45:46

What is this like this? What can you can you explain it?

Ryan Emanuel: 45:49

Wait, it's a I think the link was called a brogue broke. So it's a it's to me it sounds like vaguely he almost did it. oddish he almost did it. He's got it. He's it's it's distinct. It's very regionally distinct. hoity toity. Is that what you said? accent? Yeah.

Shandin Pete: 46:12

What did you call it? It's weird. Got it. Dude, it's weird. Well, what does it sound like? Aaron? Give us an example.

Aaron Brien: 46:18

I can't even like the way he said. Hi, high tide boy toy toy. It's this weird like, Southern Irish thing. Yeah. Boy accent and Irish accent like, I don't think it's as popular as it used to be, but that from what I understand just from linguistics, when you're geographically isolated, your your language or your speech pattern becomes an isolate. So what happened is you got these people who their entire livelihood is efficiently fishing off the Outer Banks and they just kind of isolated themselves on the Outer Banks. So whatever they were timestep to a particular time. So whenever this could be the 1600 17 or whatever it is, and it's this combination of like, an Irish brogue Hmm, and a southern accent with an English thing going with it. Hmm. It's weird man.

Ryan Emanuel: 47:14

That, you know, my, my people have a distinct accent as well. If if you grew up in Robeson County, I did not so I don't have it. But I can I can go anywhere. And here's I can hear a lumbee person who grew up Robeson County, anywhere I go, if I hear somebody talk, and I can say, Oh, that's a lumbee it's happened to me like in like Florida, or outwest. Yeah, it's bizarre and out of place, but it happens often in North Carolina. I can I can always hear and pick up when I'm when I'm when I'm hearing another lumbee voice.

Aaron Brien: 47:58

How many people speak that language? Or what's the language family? Like? What's it called?

Ryan Emanuel: 48:05

What? What lumbee Yeah, we so I mean, we we don't speak any of our ancestral languages from any of those three linguistic groups. There are people who are trying to recover those from neighboring tribes who are you know, who have their own?

Aaron Brien: 48:25

So what's the closest saving? What's the closest?

Ryan Emanuel: 48:29

The cuttlebug language is a is a close neighbor to the SRA branch of people that Suwon speaking people who are part of the lumbee tribe. So that's, that that is one of them. I know that qatal but people have spent decades trying to revitalize their language they were down to like a handful of speakers at one point

Aaron Brien: 48:59

is there is there remnants of of your language

Ryan Emanuel: 49:05

that there are there are weird words, peppered here and there. And I've heard people try to like, you know, like, twist them and make them allergies to other living native languages.

Shandin Pete: 49:19

I see.

Ryan Emanuel: 49:19

I don't know how rigorous those comparisons are. Yeah, just sort of little words and mannerisms and, and tics that people have in their speech. So I've definitely heard people say, oh, what this is related to, to this word that we can document.

Aaron Brien: 49:43

Yeah. So with the language is that kind of a mirror to like that original belief system too. So is that pretty much gone as well? or?

Ryan Emanuel: 49:54

Yeah. lumbee people adopted Protestant Christian. entity in this probably in the mid late 1700s. So that's Yeah, I think when when you lose language, there's a whole cascade of cultural loss that comes along with that. So I guess, when you were talking about sort of East Coast tribes being what's the word I'm searching for?

Aaron Brien: 50:29

I'm not gonna say, a marker, or I'm not following a warning. Yeah,

Ryan Emanuel: 50:36

yeah. People on the Rocky Mountains, like losing losing your language that's off a chain reaction of cultural loss. And you could spend generations trying to eke back,

Aaron Brien: 50:50

you know, that's what it is. It's like my new your growth, the, for the amount of preservation culture and last, the preservation effort can't match it. Like it can't. It's just, it's mathematically impossible. The amount of effort people put in is my nuke in comparison to what's lost. So we're always kind of like throwing rocks into the ocean is what it seems like, yeah, of course, you can't I mean, you don't want to voice that too much. Because like, it's real defeatist? You know, yeah,

Ryan Emanuel: 51:19

that's the thing. Yeah. I don't, I don't think I could have this conversation with just anyone, right? I feel like, we're in good company where we can we can talk about these things and be real and know that I'm not being defeatist. I'm being realistic. And sort of, I'm grappling with, like, how does my tribe and how do all these other tribes in the region, you know, who have some of the same issues with this long legacy of colonialism? Yeah. How do we deal with that?

Aaron Brien: 51:54

Well, and then I noticed, too, that becomes the fight that the fight becomes the culture of that people. So where the religious or the linguistic, the language, song that dies out, it's replaced immediately with something. And it's typically activism or this political fight. And then that becomes the identity of a people, which is good, and it's beneficial. But I also think that where those efforts could be made for for culture and language. You know, you can say, Well, we've been fighting for recognition for whatever, we've been fighting for this for this. And it's like, Wow, you guys couldn't you should have like, appropriated some effort towards these other things. Right, you had the chance?

Ryan Emanuel: 52:39

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Point. I do. And, you know, one of the one of the problems is that I think people recognize that, that this is a multi front fight and lead efforts in all these areas. But you're often forced into, like thinking where to put your limited resources. And, you know, oftentimes, it's, it's sort of in the activism and the recognition fight, and some of these other things that are terribly important kind of fall by the wayside.

Aaron Brien: 53:11

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've seen a trend in Indian Country across the board that we're slowly replacing our identity with that with activism, which is good activism is not a bad thing. But I always make this comparison with tribes in the 70s. In the 60s, when they were fighting for native rights, they were one generation removed from culture and identity, if if some of them were even connected closely to cultural identity. So the need for activism for them was like immediate, right? They understood their founded, culturally grounded, then the next generation now we're like, two, three generations down from now. Now, we see activism as just the culture is the culture of our people. It's what we do. So now when there's a protest, people just partake, right? Just as you would in a function in the past, like a ceremonial function, you would participate in that because that was part of your culture. Now, it's like, well, they're protesting. So there's some obligation to be a part of that fight. Even if that's not something you necessarily believe in, you know, because now it's seen as this is just what we do. Yeah. But I've I started seeing this because I used to teach a class called history of Indians in the US and the world it sparked this idea from tribes in the East specially the southeast, where the efforts to be recognized as humans, right just to be recognized as humans replace the effort to maintain culture. Because if you're in the if you still have it, you don't necessarily think like, that's not your or your mindset. So I start seeing that men have seen this trend. Go as colonization when that effort came along with it, right?

Shandin Pete: 55:05

It's like, why are you sorry, I talked too much. It's like some of those things you're talking about. those are those are like, I wouldn't say it embodies this term, but they're like luxury items, you can only do those if you if you have these other basic needs met. And if your identity is something that's kind of in, in the, in the in the crosshairs, that's going to be some, you know, your people are going to focus on more so that I like during the ame period, I don't I don't quite understand the the whole the wholeness of that thing. But it seemed like identity was a huge part, culture was was getting at a pretty low point. So a lot of effort was put into that activism to maintain that identity and some sort of sovereignty over your own self. I think so. I don't know if that plays into what's going on. In such a long history that we don't have of contact with the outside world is such an interesting thing. And I know we were going to talk about something very specific. We, we we've been grilling you on who's the lumbee What are they? What are they doing? Well, no, it's interesting, because it's good. Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 56:23

I'm pretty naive to it. And I am too. I feel pretty stupid right now. Because, well, there's this whole segment of Indian country that's just been largely ignored by other Indian people. Yeah.

Shandin Pete: 56:35

Yeah. And that's what really interested me when we started chatting about it is, you know, these basic questions like, well, what kind of language you got? And well, we don't have that, well, what do you have left? Nothing. I think when we talked, you said, there was like, maybe a few words recorded, and I thought, wow, that just blew my mind. So things like like identity, like things, I think about identity that come from, you know, 150 years ago, like the manner of dress, the manner of speaking, a lot of those things are gone, and you don't have a record of, of what that would look like. So to reclaim that is really to create something new, I guess, in a way to generate some new identity. I don't know. What what are your thoughts on? Yeah,

Ryan Emanuel: 57:17

you know, I I appreciate. I appreciate what you said about sort of just the struggle to be recognized as human. Yeah. And that when I think about lumbee identity, I think about sort of a centuries long effort. Yeah, people have made just to be given basic human rights, including the right to vote, right. Yeah, go to school and to not be enslaved. Yeah, I've got it. I do have an interesting lumbee Montana connection that has, that's not me. What, what is it? You want to hear about I do? We all do. So I got to preface it with this story about lumbee people fighting to be recognized as humans. In 1958, the Ku Klux Klan came to our territory, and decided that they were going to hold a rally, and that their branding was to, quote put the Indians in their place. Yeah. And they, they rented a field, decided they were going to have their rally in this rented field. And they showed up with 50 guys, and a generator, a PA system and a light bulb on a pole. And so they start up the generator to have their rally and 500 armed lumbees and their allies step out of the swamp, completely surround them. Somebody shot out the light, and in the darkness, everything just went went crazy. And the Klansmen were completely routed from the, from this field, but they caught the clan leader hiding out in the swamp A couple of days later, and he was put on trial and convicted of inciting a riot by a lumbee. Judge. Oh, in the community. Hmm. So this was in January of 1958. That year, in September, the judge gets invited to give a speech at the National Congress of American Indians in Missoula. Oh, really. So I've, I've got in the research materials for my work this year, a copy of your speech because it was so it was so popular that ncai reprinted it as a brochure to search Kill it to all of the all of the tribes who had attended. And it's really it he he only mentions the the clan routing in passing. Yeah, he has his platform is really all about. We need a National Indian voting bloc. Yeah. So he was all about he was all about voting. Yeah. And so he gave he gave this speech, one calling everybody to like, come together and and I guess support certain political candidates nationally. Yeah. Um, but he also made He also made some comments culturally about like, how good it was to be in a community of Native people and to be surrounded by so many elements of traditional cultures. And so like he made, he made this comment in the 50s, about how he as an elder lumbee person at that time, like really lamented not having those, I guess they were I don't mean to put words in his mouth, but like perceived markers of all native authenticity. Because at this time, I'm sure like, the Hollywood Western stereotype was really powerful. And probably in in everybody's minds in the US at that time. Yeah, night. He made a remark in his speech that like, you know, he was surrounded by by all of this native culture. I thought it was kind of ironic that he like left this epicenter of native culture, but it looked it happened to look very different than Yeah. And what he envisioned in his mind as like, what what it means are supposed to work quite

Aaron Brien: 1:01:45

well. The war bond and the war bond. It was do it. Yeah. You just throw that out care where you go. If someone walks in with a warm on it. He's Indian. Oh, yeah. No. He's Did you say and you're not? Yeah. Yeah, he's

Shandin Pete: 1:02:00

gonna be much wiser for one. Yeah. I mean, you're, you're done. And naturally a storyteller? Oh, my gosh, you can count on some circular thought. Oh, and metaphorical speak. Oh, yeah. I heard all Ireland. That's really interesting. That time period. 1958. Yeah. I just, I'm just blown away. Man. We got so much to talk about.

Aaron Brien: 1:02:33

Like, freaked me out a little bit. Yeah. Cuz what whole world is preservation? Right. My whole my work is babe Tribal Historic Preservation officer, my job is partly least legally to seek the protection and the preservation of culture. Talking to you, though, makes me very thankful for that I have something to protect. Yeah, like I can say, there. I can go to someone and say, Well, what do we call this place? And they'll say it in our language. And they'll give us a little narrative. And I take that for granted pretty regularly. Like, I just I just pick up the phone. Yeah, the fact that I can pick up a number a call a number of people to get some narrative makes me appreciate things a little more that it does make my job a lot easier, because I can't imagine what someone from your tribe, your I think there is there a constant justification. Like you're constantly justifying that you guys are native people, you know?

Ryan Emanuel: 1:03:41

Oh, yeah, there's a Yeah, just I'll be completely honest with you. Like it's a, it's, it's sort of this net, it's this thing that's ever present in the room. And like, you don't know why you feel like you need to do that. You're like, you know, get behind me colonizer.

Aaron Brien: 1:04:03

And then, I mean, let's, let's call like, you're probably having to do it to other native people to like, yeah, yeah, just say it, man. This is yes, this honesty hour, because

Shandin Pete: 1:04:15

it's a safe place.

Aaron Brien: 1:04:16

This is a safe it is.

Shandin Pete: 1:04:18

I mean, after we publish it. I don't know about that. But right now, it's a safe place.

Ryan Emanuel: 1:04:25

I mean, so that that's been on display. And unfortunately comes on display every time a bill comes up in Congress to amend the 1956 lumbee Act, which is the that's the that's the federal law that that defines who we are, and the eyes of the of the government. And so you

Aaron Brien: 1:04:50

guys are recognized by the federal government, but only under executive order ours. It's Public Law.

Ryan Emanuel: 1:04:56

It's a it's a public law. And it it it recognized As in name only there's a clause in that law that says lumbee people are don't don't have access to any resources or acknowledgement because of their status as, as native people. I don't remember the I can't tell you the exact wording, but it's on one hand it says your Indian people. And then right after that, it says, you get nothing. And we have no government to government relationship with you. Oh, damn.

Aaron Brien: 1:05:32

I'll tell you what, though. You dodged a bullet on Indian Health Service. So? Yeah, yeah. On paper, it seems seems nice. Seems good. But uh, yeah, they're just pushing ibuprofen.

Shandin Pete: 1:05:49

Yeah. Diamond tap, Diamond tap, and it proven. Oh, you know what, let's, you know, we got more to talk about. Let's wrap it up. We do. We do. Let's wrap it up. Yeah, we, we need to get Ryan back on. We're gonna we're gonna wrangle some schedules. He's a busy guy. He's got to do this again. Brian. Yeah, that's really. Okay.

Aaron Brien: 1:06:12

What do you even get to talk about? Wait, I know I wanted to talk. Because you freaking blew my mind. Like, it's weird how something so simple could like freak you out a little bit? Yeah. Yeah, it kind of freaked me out a little bit. Me too.

Ryan Emanuel: 1:06:24

Yeah. I'd love to come back and talk to you some more about historic preservation, because that's, it's something that interests me, but I don't know enough about it to have a good conversation. I want to know more. Yeah, maybe that's not a podcast conversation. But no, let's make one.

Shandin Pete: 1:06:44

Yeah, let's make it one.

Aaron Brien: 1:06:45

Why no? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, why not? Why not? Why don't you start a podcast? I will do it. You guys. Can. You should call it you

Shandin Pete: 1:06:53

should call it lumbee noise lumby noise with two E's to me noise. That's cool. Okay, okay.

Aaron Brien: 1:07:09

But wouldn't love be noisy? Cool.

Ryan Emanuel: 1:07:12

Yeah, we'll say that like to long term? No, it would be cool. Two things I want to do I want to start a podcast. And I also want to want to try to bring back some of our canoe traditions. I get to talk about that at all. But my interest in historic preservation goes back to people regularly fine dugout canoes in our territories that are centuries old, buried at the bottom of the river for 500 years.

Aaron Brien: 1:07:45

Wow, we have a game the crows have this game. And they call it I can't remember what it's called now, but it's kind of like dice. And they say that this dice game came from like people south of the Smoky Mountains. Huh? that weird like that far over?

Unknown: 1:08:07

Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 1:08:08

Yeah. But our language comes from that area. North Carolina, Smoky Mountains.

Shandin Pete: 1:08:17

That's kind of where you guys migrated from? Right.

Aaron Brien: 1:08:20

Yeah, they say that that will come from all I mean, from me, but we're that's going back quite quite some time even beyond 1500. Yeah, migration in 1500 was like that was the second or third we're head north dakota, you know. You know what I mean? Like that was like from from Devil's Lake, North Dakota is where that that happened in the migration was all pretty much all of the western United States, this side of the Sierra Nevada Mountains, you know, so, but the might there was a previous migration from what we believe to be in and around the Smoky Mountains to the Great Lakes. So that's during a time when we call ourselves Augie without Volga which means like people on top of the ground and so

Shandin Pete: 1:09:10

yeah, we need to chat. We need to chat more. And then let's make it soon. If you got time, maybe. Maybe next week? I don't know. I don't know. But there's I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if we'll have time. I mean, I don't know. I got crazy. I got some home improvement projects I gotta attend to but I don't know.

Aaron Brien: 1:09:31

I mean, I don't know. I mean, but I'm just saying

Ryan Emanuel: 1:09:37

I gotta go register lumbee boys, calm.

Shandin Pete: 1:09:40

There you go. lumbee started up, man. Yeah, well, we'll Guess I'll be a guest anytime you let me know.

Aaron Brien: 1:09:46

call it lumbee swamp talk. Even better, days. More dirty or awkward. The z goes in that

Shandin Pete: 1:09:59

Yeah. We can figure that out. All right, well, let's call her quits now. We're good. Everybody's good. You feel you feel okay.

Aaron Brien: 1:10:07

Yeah, man. We talked for a long time. We did.

Shandin Pete: 1:10:09

All right. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, we're out then. All right. Thank you for joining us on this episode. And if you want to learn more about what we're up to go ahead and search Tribal Research Specialist in Twitter, Facebook, or YouTube, and check out our other sites. And if you want to contribute to the show, go ahead and look us up on Patreon. We would appreciate your donation