Traditional songs and their cultural significance. 0:04
Indigenous singing and morality. 22:28
Indigenous land acknowledgments and cultural appropriation. 34:43
Conference planning and land acknowledgments. 41:45
Incorporating traditional ceremonies into a conference. 55:45
Indigenous Research Methodologies and Identity. 1:12:21
Organizing a conference for indigenous researchers. 1:18:52
Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)
Podcast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tribal-research-specialist-the-podcast/id1512551396
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/1H5Y1pWYI8N6SYZAaawwxb
Twitter: @tribalresearchspecialist
Facebook: www.facebook.com/TribalResearchSpecialist
YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UCL9HR4B2ubGK_aaQKEt179Q
Website: www.tribalresearchspecialist.com
Click below ↓ to...
Traditional songs and their cultural significance. 0:04
Indigenous singing and morality. 22:28
Indigenous land acknowledgments and cultural appropriation. 34:43
Conference planning and land acknowledgments. 41:45
Incorporating traditional ceremonies into a conference. 55:45
Indigenous Research Methodologies and Identity. 1:12:21
Organizing a conference for indigenous researchers. 1:18:52
Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)
Podcast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tribal-research-specialist-the-podcast/id1512551396
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/1H5Y1pWYI8N6SYZAaawwxb
Twitter: @tribalresearchspecialist
Facebook: www.facebook.com/TribalResearchSpecialist
YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UCL9HR4B2ubGK_aaQKEt179Q
Website: www.tribalresearchspecialist.com
Click below ↓ to...
loves you remember me remember me yeah loves you oh yeah remember me you actually know who showed who knows who showed me that song?
Shandin Pete:Who was it?
Aaron Brien:You'd never guessed so that round and some. You would never guess who showed it to me
Shandin Pete:okay yeah, I can guess
Aaron Brien:John's the farm
Shandin Pete:Okay how did I haven't guessed I wouldn't have guessed that yeah
Aaron Brien:see? Tonka
Shandin Pete:I first thought
Aaron Brien:No Yeah. Now for 49 and yeah I would say Tonko probably
Shandin Pete:Yeah Man Can you hear this hold on a second though all right, can you hear this no I forgot to share the sound yeah rookie. What a loser shares great good man shares it's pretty easy he's gonna do Oh I didn't know you could click on mono or high fidelity I'm gonna do the high fidelity now you can hear that yeah let's see not this one not this one is around dense Alex being recorded underwater you round dance to Nair
Aaron Brien:that's a bad two man is playing again. Okay, it's playing again.
Shandin Pete:Okay. We located beginning here comes right Are you feeling it man feeling it last got the eyes closed not tight though. They're kind of flickering a bit you know that look We ready Yeah, I think so I mean yeah
Aaron Brien:we do we have not that's a cool tune do it is that's a cool sound man that song. Yeah that actually like I don't know what you got it but that sounds like round and songs that I want to sing. Yeah, like yeah, I've always wanted to make tunes like that you know yeah
Shandin Pete:yeah never could
Aaron Brien:come through it's repetitive yeah yeah and it's but it's smooth you know and it's like yeah you got your your hand drums are sound and bouncy here should drop down and crack it's got a crack to it.
Shandin Pete:Oh yeah that'll crack that sounds good and then
Aaron Brien:you got like you got six seven guys you know maybe eight dudes that yeah can sing and blend good oh yeah I know you started humming that tune it's cold outside and then the guy next season oh yeah he kind of started somewhere pretty soon for of your hot minute and then the impatient singer which is me usually goes sting start it doesn't learn it doesn't bother to like learn it. It's like just started but yeah, that song that song was playing I could picture a fairly cold building not around dance but like singing guys like your the boys got together? Yeah. It's so it's there's snow on the ground, but it's like that muddy kind of snow. It's not Oh, yeah.
Shandin Pete:Yeah,
Aaron Brien:it's yeah, it's
Shandin Pete:keep going. This quite poetic. You know?
Aaron Brien:Well, it conjured up quite a
Shandin Pete:bit phone conjured you read this long in my book of poems by Aaron. So kind of building Well, they say it in poetry voice. Let me get like let's get mood. Okay, good. Poetry voice
Aaron Brien:the sound the round dance. The sounds of a smooth round and song feels the air in a cold wintry building on any given native community in the North. The Rocky Mountain region
Shandin Pete:sounds like a pamphlet Come on, man. It turned into a pamphlet.
Aaron Brien:I'm just saying okay, this is what I would say. Okay, right. Around round dance tunes like that these those kind of? Yeah. I wouldn't even say they're like traditional random songs. But they're almost they remind me of nighttime. Yeah, yeah, night. A song like that reminds me of nighttime. It reminds me of quasi traditional people. Wow, you know what I mean? Like, people on the fringes who just like to sing tunes, and yeah, it doesn't roll with that man. You got the guy who shows up with one guy shows up with a hand drum and a pillowcase. One guy shows up with the hand drum in the rope bag. Oh yeah. And then one guy shows up with forehand drums in a in a made Pendleton. Ooh, bang pro level. Yeah. And then you got you have seven hand drums but you only have four or five sticks. So you always got that one guy that can I make thick real quick? Yeah.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, take a sock off. And
Aaron Brien:I kind of liked that sound of hand drums that is a little more pinky and less cardboard, you know? Yeah. I kind of I've always kind of liked that that tune in. So
Shandin Pete:you're talking about the remote remote drum sound well,
Aaron Brien:but more natural. To me is like to like, oh my god, it's too much. You know? You get five remotes. You can't even hear the song. You know.
Shandin Pete:Celtic?
Aaron Brien:I remember the first time I seen remote drums. When was the first time you saw remote drums?
Shandin Pete:Oh, man, I can't I don't remember the specific date. But it must have been in. Had to been in. Maybe early 90s. Maybe mid 90s. Really?
Aaron Brien:You saw that long ago? Huh?
Shandin Pete:I think so. Remote control. Maybe I'm confusing the era. So I No, no, no. Yeah, I'm on my era. I mean, 2000. The 2000s.
Aaron Brien:The early 2000s. Yeah. So that's about when I see them. And I remember that it was Gabby Carell. You remember Gabby? Yeah. I
Shandin Pete:think that's who I started seeing.
Aaron Brien:That's the first person. The Remo and it was. He had like a bag of them. Yeah. Yeah. And, and at the time, I was like, Oh, that's pretty cool. They sound good. But as I get older, I don't know if I like their sound, you know?
Shandin Pete:Yeah, the remote was there. I don't know. It's it's you. You make a
Aaron Brien:pretty mean hand drum.
Shandin Pete:Well, yeah, I've been out of the game for the decade, but it was the era of mine, you know,
Aaron Brien:but But I liked the way you tied to drum though. Oh,
Shandin Pete:yeah. You pump out a few and then call it good. Yeah, I
Aaron Brien:had that. horsehide one. Oh, yeah. You made man. I was a dope sounding drum.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah, I still have that. I still have that high. Enough to make probably one one more drum. I've been holding on to it. So I had to do that.
Aaron Brien:You know, and I used to hear these old guys say the best sounding hand drums or horsehide. And I would have to agree, man, I have to agree. Well, yeah. I gave that drum away. You did? Yeah. A relative of mine was celebrating his five years of sobriety. Oh, yeah. And during his sobriety, he taught himself how to sing. Really, Benny actually is a pretty good singer. And we were singing together one day and and he said, Hey, man, today's five years, he just happened to say it. So when we got done singing, I had that drum. And as I said, well here, man, I'll give you my favorite Dre does the best job I ever had. Yeah, but
Shandin Pete:I swear you got to do DOMA got to
Aaron Brien:do it. Man. Got to do it. The moment called for and who am I to deny the
Shandin Pete:moment you know? That's right. That's right. You got to get a just,
Aaron Brien:I don't think I ever told anybody that now. I never heard it. Now. 42 people know it.
Shandin Pete:And I even forgot that. I made that horsehide drum. I made that for you. You bought it? Yeah, for 60 bucks. Yeah, I think. I think I think you may have Did you requested or did I tell you I have a horsehide? No,
Aaron Brien:you You told oh, you told me you had a horse side. And I and I think I even said, Oh, the old guys used to tell me. And I said I'll get one from you. And then you kind of like we're like, Oh yeah, you know, and I didn't, you know, probably deep down. I probably didn't think you were actually going to make it
Shandin Pete:up 60 bucks. That's 60 bucks. So you don't owe me
Aaron Brien:one. I bought two drums from you for that price. Yeah. Yeah. So I bought that first one, which I gave to my son. Yeah. And then I still have it. No, it's here. Yeah. So I had a problem too, with people stealing my jobs. I had a hand job stolen from me. And so I started painting the rim of my drums blue.
Shandin Pete:Oh, that's why I did that as wondering that it was some spiritual reason. Well,
Aaron Brien:I actually kind of so there's kind of a thing this guy had a dream about me. Right that I took my hand drum. Yeah. And I put it in ice. And then he in his dream, he said, Why are you so why are you doing that? And I told him something about to protect my singing or my songs or something. Yeah, yeah. But he said that drum was blue. And I think if I remember correctly, he told me the whole drum was blue. But um, so then this is all happening around the same time as going to these little round dances and put all your drums on the table and they get some some walk away. So I said, Wow, I'm gonna do that. I mean, I don't it was never confirmed as like a thing to do or, yeah. Authorize, but I did it. You know, maybe I shouldn't have I don't know.
Shandin Pete:Get a certificate. You didn't get approval? I didn't get approval, but get IRB approval to but
Aaron Brien:I never lost the drum again.
Shandin Pete:Well, there you go. There you go. Well, you know the song a while Okay. I've been uploading these these audio tapes.
Aaron Brien:To you YouTube. Go to YouTube guys. Yeah, some gold on there. There is.
Shandin Pete:I got it. I got a whole stack here. So I'm still going through but this one was, it was sort of a mystery. Some of them are labeled, you know. So you know exactly. You know, it's ki IO or Crowfeather whatever. This one was just labeled the bear child in it said round dance. And that was it. So I didn't. I didn't quite know I did. Some little bit of searching around to figure out maybe who this bear child might have been. Come to find out I get a response back from guy named by the name of crit, you know, crit. Do you know that name?
Aaron Brien:I don't know. But that sound the sound of the song I kind of was thinking like Saskatchewan, man. Well,
Shandin Pete:that's kind of what I thought too. But here, it turns out, crit. I know him because he was friends grid. He was a friend with my dad. And when he was singing around with us a bit when Stan was living in Missoula, we've kind of got little practice sessions going on. But yeah, anyway, he he he messaged and said, Oh, yeah. In short, he said bear child was the this group that they put together for the key IO Indian club. They called themselves bear child. I didn't ask them why bear child or nothing like that. But yeah, Pio Indian club. So he said he has this picture. He sends me this picture of the bear child singers. And it was in 1979. And it included Troy bull bear. Ron Ledoux. Mike madman, Sean Chippewa crit held as the guy that I know and Rod broad. I know I know that the last two just from from my dad hanging out with those grid.
Aaron Brien:Man. I swear I know crit. You probably seen why I would sit around with you guys a little bit with when Stanley Yeah, we're talking about Stanley pretty paint. Yeah,
Shandin Pete:yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I thought that was kind of neat to finally connect the dots on one of these. These tapes, you know, and well, man. They
Aaron Brien:sounded good. Yeah, that's the best student group I've ever heard, man.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, and the rest of the tape. You got some good tunes. They're singing some good songs on it. Yeah, so if you go to YouTube, check it out. I didn't It's in the list. Fairchild singers. You'll see exactly what I read you Yeah, it's good one Taylor one that's
Aaron Brien:another good smooth song. I wish more songs are made that way. Yeah, and I'm sure they are I'm sure you gotta go up north to here round that songs like that are all dance tunes.
Shandin Pete:Good ones the good one.
Aaron Brien:Young Scout are young. Yeah, young scouts young scouts make Mark Long John and you guys and I never really knew them. I met Mark Long John once but man that sound like that song. That song composing sound. Oh, yeah.
Shandin Pete:Also figured out and other all these other songs in our previous episodes, those songs I've been playing, you know, and we've been trying to figure out I finally made a connection where those are from and got the full details but I reached out or reached out to some folks and sent them you know, to listen to it. So I got I got the details on that. Which is pretty good.
Aaron Brien:But also, ma'am,
Shandin Pete:but we're not here to talk about that, are we? We're not
Aaron Brien:here to talk about songs. Now we you know what's funny is For the people that have talked to me about our podcasts, that's yeah, that's one of the things is they say like, you guys should talk about music more. And they actually have said, play the songs longer. Oh, really? Yeah,
Shandin Pete:I thought I was playing them too long at certain points. I thought, wow, people might get bored of this. I don't know. I can extend it out, let them
Aaron Brien:get bored and never get bored.
Shandin Pete:I mean, I'll put I can put a longer clip. It will
Aaron Brien:like, what's the difference? What's the difference between 30 seconds and 45 seconds? You know,
Shandin Pete:now much and not much. Like if
Aaron Brien:it's a song that has starts in it play to starts.
Shandin Pete:I can do that. Because I feel like that's
Aaron Brien:enough for people to learn the song. Yeah, yeah. They want to learn a song. If it's an if it obviously if it's appropriate. Well, we don't feel like we're playing songs that are inappropriate. We're not doing that. So I
Shandin Pete:don't think so. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:So music to me is always a fun topic. Because for one I don't ever claim to be an expert at Yeah, Indian music, but I'm a fan of it, man. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I feel like a lot of people who do research on Native people is often overlooked.
Shandin Pete:It is. It is. It is. I was, um, I was reading this, and I just come across it just maybe hours ago. I don't, I don't know how or why. But it's this. It's an article written by some dude, but an AMA Todd, Todd Swanson. But it's in this odd sort of this off journal called the Journal of religious ethics rule. It's sort of caught my eye because it says the weathered character. And it says envy in response to the seasons in Native American traditions. I don't know it's kind of catches, caught my eye, but I started reading it. And it said something here, I thought that was pretty cool about spoke specifically about singing. And if I could find it here, I'll read it to you. So it's a good one, man. I mean, it, I don't know if it's good. It's it seemed the seem to be telling. But anyway, he. So what this guy does is he, he's trying to figure out something about the, I don't know how, how Indians think, you know, in relation to non Indians, you know, I don't think like, so it takes these writings by these indigenous people. In particular, one from Colombia, from the highlands of Colombia, you know, those people can't remember how to pronounce their, their, the name of their people, but you know, they live up in high in the mountains. But this guy was saying that the goal of the moral life, according to this guy, is to develop a character whose sense of timing responds perfectly to the temporal movements of the forest. This gets the singing here, but that's, that's his first thing. So this guy was, you know, he's not, he's not an educated dude. You know, nobody in that time was, you know, they go to school, he just lives like a traditional person. And so when he's talking about these things, that's what he says. Said, Okay, moral life, to develop a great character. The character responds to perfectly to the, the, the environment, essentially, is what he's saying. So then he relates bad timing, like, like, bad timing, so like out of sync out of sync with the environment, as that is related to envy and gluttony. So essentially, he's saying you're you do, you're doing something in a space, and in a time that belongs to someone else. That's what Gluttony is. And that's what he thought envy was that that kind of thing? And then the singing part. Let me see here. Where's the set? Yeah, he says, singing I can't find it fast enough, but I'll find here. Let's see. Where did he say it? Where's that? Oh, yeah. Okay, so he's talking about some other person. Someone from what do they call them nowadays to be called? Or they used to call themselves or somebody who's come Papago. You know that Papago? probably weren't like were out in the southwest. Oh, Tona don't know Odom's. Yeah. So lady from there is also talks about you butchered that. I did i I'm sorry. I'm just not regional. Right? My non regional diction is not very good. Anyway, I see what it is. And I can't find this man. I don't know where it's at. Well, what was he going to say? Anyway? I just totally cut you off. Yeah, you did. Okay, keep going. But it's too late now. Okay. Here it is. Yes. So this is related to what I said. So on the surface, he says, The singing and dancing in the face of this word finitude, which is like a boundary and on the face of some boundary seems to have something in common with the existential ethics of courage. I don't know. Even define one, this isn't the one I was looking for.
Aaron Brien:You're in the weeds now.
Shandin Pete:It's a way in the weeds. Bring me back. Bring me back. I'm weighing the weeds.
Aaron Brien:I don't know what to tell you know how to get out of this. Because, you know, here's the problem is I'm interested in what Yeah, and so you just added this whole part out.
Shandin Pete:I didn't come prepared. Okay, okay. Wait, I think I found it. See the quiet moral? I don't know. But this is what I do know, kind of what he said what he summarizes and what you're saying is that not exactly what you just said non he's saying essentially non natives, especially researchers, anthropologists underestimate what's expressed in song. That's essentially what he's saying. Isn't it just seems like a practice or fulfillment of a custom. It's actually the expression of morality whenever somebody is singing that's kind of what he's saying. And I think that's somewhat true, but I think like what just what you were saying there's certain levels of of that like, like you talked about this, just a bunch of bunch of dudes getting together and you know, haha, around seeing some tunes. There's a there's sort of a demeanor or sort of essence that comes out of that. Versus a bunch of dudes getting ready to sing for a contest to win a lot of money. There's two different sorts of demeanors there right and then there's a whole nother demeanor if you're singing and it's not just a male thing but there's like women involved then you got a whole nother demeanor like way a way of acting. Then there's a whole nother demeanor when you're the one maybe you're singing solo like it's just you for some reason that another demeanor. I think each of those like this guy saying, sort of is a representative of some sort of morality of what of that situation. What's just not I don't know, it's not nothing groundbreaking, like, native folks know that I guess, in a way but but do we? I don't know. Because we just do it. We don't think about it. We do it. Yeah. Do we do something compels us to do those things? Go do it.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know, whatever. Whether it's as far as song I do agree. There's levels to singing. I agree. There's levels to demeanor and reverence. Yeah. I also feel like there's another caveat to that which is, in some cases, Song accompanies something. Yes. And in some cases song is something Yeah. So for example, jingle just sidestep song accompanies a dance. Right? Agreed. But amongst the Ojibwe, and their, their ceremony of the medicine dress, yes, the songs hold a higher purpose. Outside just accompanying the dance. They themselves are part of the power, I guess you could say.
Shandin Pete:Right? And
Aaron Brien:so like, my, here's here's a thought. For those that listen to us who has ever been in this situation? This is relatable for those who don't know, I mean, it'd be tough. But here we got most singers have been asked to render render and an honest honor song. Yeah. Add a non power or non dance, right? Yeah, yeah. Graduation and inauguration. Yeah a retirement or retirement or whatever. So can you guys sing us an honor song?
Shandin Pete:The printing of it?
Aaron Brien:Yeah. So then you go on there you go up there. Yeah. Then you start singing and then everyone stares at you.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So then it
Aaron Brien:begs the question of when an honor song is accompanying something of honor. Yeah. Who the hell are they supposed to stare at? So, so one time I got asked to sing for a graduation. Yeah. I told the story before solo and I stood behind them. Yeah. Yeah. Because then I thought my job isn't. I'm not the thing.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, so don't look at me. Yeah. So
Aaron Brien:then the song at that point, the songs not even a company in anything, or it's not even the thing. And in that case, it shouldn't be the thing. Yeah. Have you ever? Have you ever been in that situation where you're like, can you sing Your Honor song? And then have you ever questioned it and been like, what are we honoring? What is it? What is it? We're honoring?
Shandin Pete:Yeah, if it's
Aaron Brien:me, then I'm not gonna sing my own honor song.
Shandin Pete:It's show offy it becomes
Aaron Brien:seems like so like when they do graduations also, okay, they should sing a song while they walk in. Or they shouldn't sing a song while they while they give out the roses or whatever. Yeah, they should. You know, it's it's just weird to be when you just standing there singing a song and everyone's like, staring at you and they don't know what they're supposed to do. And
Shandin Pete:yeah, yeah, I wonder. I wonder when? When did that. When did that sort of change? Well, you know, it's performance. Right? It's performance. The honor song. Today, at least in those circumstances is his performance because the song is not I mean, I would question whether the song is even legit, like legitimate. I mean, what is the honor song anyway? What what what I don't know.
Aaron Brien:It's usually just slow, powerful song, right?
Shandin Pete:You just pick your the song who you're singing with everybody knows and, and solemnly
Aaron Brien:just sing solemn. Just so we're actually flipping the lid on a lot of things right now. Yeah. When you go to these conferences, and then they're like, they're like, Can everyone please rise? We've caught we've asked. We've asked medicine will singers. And the inner tribal Coalition for the spirit of the white buffalo. There we've asked them to sing the honor song. Oh, yeah. Oh, how about that one? The honors? Yeah,
Shandin Pete:the honor song.
Aaron Brien:And, and this conclusion of the honor song. We've asked. Community Leader shot Shandon Pete start us off in a good way.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Always. Yeah. Always in a good way with an invocation.
Aaron Brien:I've never heard Native people, never an Indian say invocation I don't. And then all of a sudden, when we go to these things, it's like it's an invocation. I'm
Shandin Pete:going to invocate before we eat Yeah, can
Aaron Brien:we invocate like, I don't know why we do this. Why don't we do this? Why do we like, adopt? Like, weird, man, dude, we're like calling some stuff out right here.
Shandin Pete:It is a call out. And I mean, it has to be right. We're in the age. Where's this the era of the call out? It has to be like, it's like, a time of change.
Aaron Brien:Now, so we grew up in the honor song era. We did. Yeah. And our childhood was really the invocation era. That sort of childhood. Yeah,
Shandin Pete:do we hit Save Jeep in the ribbon? Ribbon shirt ribbon shirt, not skirt? That wasn't a thing yet? No, no.
Aaron Brien:So even lady said ribbon shirts. How about the ribbon vest? Yeah,
Shandin Pete:that was quickly replaced with the Pendleton vest. I don't know when but yeah, and
Aaron Brien:thank God so like they're always weird colors like yellow and red and black. Like orange. Teal. Like they're like in the same colors. But so then now now what young people what what we saw the endo are what it are. The early midlife I guess what we're what we're seeing is now the land acknowledgement.
Shandin Pete:This is the era of Yeah. So then
Aaron Brien:we went. So now when we go to meetings, we got to deal with all three meetings conferences. We got to deal with the invocation to
Shandin Pete:honor song when we write these down. So invocation Oh, wait long land acknowledgement comes first. I
Aaron Brien:would say the land acknowledgement first, then you hit them with the honor. And then and then you hit it in by now you're an hour and a half in the opening
Shandin Pete:ceremony? Yes, man. And what's the difference between the remark because there's remarks after the invocation, opening remarks. Which
Aaron Brien:you're right, you're right. There's opening and opening remark. Okay. So okay, we're planning we're planning a conference right now. We're planning the medicine. No, we're planning the sacred we'll circle of research conference.
Shandin Pete:Let's put hoop in there somewhere.
Aaron Brien:Oh, no. That's a sacred the Sacred Hoop of holistic research. International Conference of First Nations. Oh, no, no, no, I've ki K. Yeah, so that's that's our conference.
Shandin Pete:Not not first nations. So we gotta go broader. Indigenous,
Aaron Brien:indigenous. You're right. Indigenous. That's your right. Good call. So okay, so what is it called?
Shandin Pete:Do we get the whole day plan that actually with the land acknowledgement, honor song and application opening remarks? festival day?
Aaron Brien:Oh, the now the right. frame for the food.
Shandin Pete:Oh, yeah. That's up to lunch. We're up to lunch. Lunch.
Aaron Brien:And we, for lunch, you got to find a Lakota like that's the rules. You got to find Lakota Sundance leader.
Shandin Pete:No matter where no matter where you're in, no matter,
Aaron Brien:dude. Remember, we went to Phoenix for that? Geoscience conference. Oh, yeah, you pick stuff. Oh, yeah. They were doing you pick stuff? Yeah. Phoenix Arizona. Yeah. And I said I wonder how the local people feel about it. So then. Okay, so then in which our food being served a sandwiches with Lacroix with Lacroix drinks so no need no Indians even one so in those weird funky chips like those
Shandin Pete:thick Yes, yeah. No chips or somebody's
Aaron Brien:kettle chips, whatever they're called. So then that's what that's what lunches and of course at assigned seating, the tables are assigned. So
Shandin Pete:all right. We got half the day planned.
Aaron Brien:Dude, that's that's lunch and then plant plenaries disciplinary. Yeah. The patent Oh, are the panel should go panel to do
Shandin Pete:panel first. Oh, let's go. And let's make sure that the panel is just everybody introducing themselves. And then we're gonna run out of time. Well, that's a given. That's a good that's the way a panel is isn't that format. Yeah. So so
Aaron Brien:the panel will be five people from very, very Different parts of Indian Country. Oh yeah. Speaking on like Yeah. Pressing issues in Indian country from a Native perspective. Yeah.
Shandin Pete:So more specific like native grassland, grass seed,
Aaron Brien:no disciplinary session. Well, that's
Shandin Pete:Oh, that's the plenary. Okay. Got it backwards. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So the
Aaron Brien:panel is just Yeah. Okay. And if I shoes pressing issues in Indian country from an Native perspective, okay.
Shandin Pete:Yeah.
Aaron Brien:In land management. So and you got to make sure like, it's like to two people are involved in land management, the other person is an educator. And then yeah, Indian lawyer, you gotta have that, you know? Yeah. Then you have a random councilman, which they don't know what's going on. So.
Shandin Pete:So you've been hitting some meetings? I can tell. So So yeah, some conferences, you know, these two dudes don't
Aaron Brien:know, then then. Then we have a 15 minute break, which then would lead to the plenary session.
Shandin Pete:So which of these I thought Yeah, the plenary these are these are sessions, right? These are sessions. No, that's the two sessions
Aaron Brien:are doing and we're gonna start our sessions at 730 in the morning.
Shandin Pete:That's after the morning blessing, which started at four
Aaron Brien:No, the sunrise ceremony Yeah.
Shandin Pete:Yeah.
Aaron Brien:Why did they start the song early? Who wants to go to a session at eight in the morning? Dude golden nine. There's a huge difference between a man
Shandin Pete:Yeah, a world of difference.
Aaron Brien:A world Oh, different Aaron. There's a whole different
Shandin Pete:let's get back to the song now. Let's get back to the honor song. Because we got to figure out who's gonna sing the honor song. Oh,
Aaron Brien:yeah. Right. So let's go back. Oh, I thought it was Medicine Wheel singers.
Shandin Pete:Oh, yeah. Where did that Yeah, really
Aaron Brien:good. Medicine will singers. Yeah. Okay,
Shandin Pete:got that jotted down Where's oh yeah good.
Aaron Brien:The invocation is a is a elder not from the area no can be no it's got to be someone that you actually that you flew in you you flew them and they don't even know what the conference is about. They just came and they you know they brought their wife they're gonna hit the outlets right after the outlets right
Shandin Pete:they give me keep going. As
Aaron Brien:part of the honorary Emil was still the sacred Prince Albert tobacco or No, no, that tops tops. Yeah, it's always tops. That's the blue one, which will quickly get discarded.
Shandin Pete:Well, you can't bring it on a plane, right? No, no, you can. Can you? Yeah,
Aaron Brien:you can bring your plane. No, the light blue one is beautiful. As beautiful. Yeah, that's the second choice. Second, second, Chris Thomas comes with rolling papers.
Shandin Pete:They get the bugles to the singers. Yeah, that's the Yeah.
Aaron Brien:You'll pay the guy to come and pray. You'll pay him$500 You bought his plane ticket, got him a hotel room and gave him three days per diem. The drum group, which there's seven of them, you gave him some tobacco and you fed them lunch.
Shandin Pete:gave him one day registration.
Aaron Brien:You gave him watch the plenary session of your choice. I've been on all facets of these things. I've been on the prayer side I've been on I've been the keynote I've been the plenary I've been both a spectator. Not all of it, man. I've never done the registration table though.
Shandin Pete:You had to pitch in you want to make some changes men get on the committee. Which what's
Aaron Brien:so what's the registration table for at these things?
Shandin Pete:Register. Like what are you registered prints your bag print your badge, print your badge and give you the bag with the notebook and water bottle.
Aaron Brien:I think that's it in the pen that's in the water bottle.
Shandin Pete:Oh yeah. rattling around in there.
Aaron Brien:They put the pen and paper like the stationary and the water bottle. And then what else? All the four sided highlighter thing? The square triangle? Excited one? It's pink, yellow and orange. You know what I'm talking about?
Shandin Pete:I have one probably sitting out here somewhere. Yeah. Okay, back to the song. No. That's good. I mean, we're we're trying to plan. You have to Okay. The conference on his
Aaron Brien:tribal tribal research specialist. Yeah, we'll call it the nonconference conference. Yeah,
Shandin Pete:it's got to be so how would we change that? So first of all, go back. We're gonna get to let's let's go down the list.
Aaron Brien:What can you land acknowledgement? Who's doing the landing? No. Well, no. I
Shandin Pete:mean, I mean, if you would change it, how would you change it?
Aaron Brien:Just opening remarks.
Shandin Pete:Okay, no, no honor song. Are you going to do a landing? No, I'm, I'm honestly asking you. And I agree. So I agree.
Aaron Brien:I always feel like it can. I'm not against land acknowledgments. What I'm against is reasoning for them, and then how they're scripted. Yeah. So like opening remarks should be somebody come up to say, Hey, thanks for coming. Everybody. Remember, this is why we're here. Yeah. And yeah, before we get started, man, let's think such and such tribe for doing their thing and helping us out. Yeah. And, of course, we acknowledge that this is where we are. And yeah, and we're doing our best to respect everyone's beliefs. But because of where we're are, if there's any protocols needed, we're going to default to these people, because it's this is their Aboriginal land. Aside from that, it's going to be pretty basic. It's the single follow the agenda, whatever, get
Shandin Pete:down to business,
Aaron Brien:if anyone drops a feather, we know. Instead, it's let's pray, dude, let's plan a conference.
Shandin Pete:That's what we're doing right now. We're doing it.
Aaron Brien:We're doing it. We're doing it. Should we plan a conference?
Shandin Pete:Yeah. We said we would back in episode. Let's see. Are you serious? I'm serious, man. We saw this is the deal. We got a lot of we got a lot of criticisms and grapes, you know? Uh huh.
Aaron Brien:So we ain't stepping up.
Shandin Pete:We're sitting at the registration table, genomic changes. Now we talked about this episode 41 hanging around the conference Indians, reimagining the modern structure for discussing tribal research. So at the start, and I think that's right, you so you all come together because you want to do business. And maybe that's just like a, like a, like a man way of thinking. We need a female to balance it out. But I don't know what they say the same thing. If you want to get down to business. Yeah. Just tell everybody that that detail. We're here to do this. This is, yeah, we're here in this land to do it. It just like you said, right. We follow
Aaron Brien:those or anything. If if there's protocols needed. This is who we're going to use as our advisors is the tribe that we're closest to? Yes, that's where we're staying. Well, whatever, you know, okay.
Shandin Pete:Let me take a step back. Okay. So before you before you before you say that, because some people I'm trying to think of the argument, some people will say, well, well, don't you always got to start the meeting out in a good way. What about the non Indians pray? How are you gonna? I gotta collusion. Let's hear it.
Aaron Brien:This is actually got brought up at meetings, consultations I've been in. Yeah. Where I said, you know, what's probably more important? Yeah. More appropriate for consultation sake, because consultation can actually be like, confrontational. Yeah. I've always said, let's start like a ceremony would where the announcer Yeah, would remind everybody why we're here. Yeah, yeah, the announcer would say, this has been put on by this group. And this is why they wanted us to come here. Yeah. That's what an announcer would say, at a ceremony, right. And then we would do our business. And at the end, we would say, all right, as they announced, they would say, before we send you home today, we're going to ask for good things for for you. And we're going to ask that what you had learned here today, you know, take with you and share it with your people. Yeah. And then you would go about your business and then at the end of the day, you would have somebody come in and make a wish, which we could call a prayer but they would make a wish list for all have us in attendance. So this is why we came here today. And we're gonna send everybody home. Yeah. In a good way. I feel like that's that that's a little more appropriate.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, it seems like and I don't know, because because I can reflect on that and see how that sort of mimics real life, you know, for ceremonially speaking, I suppose. But we don't see that at things that are more. I don't know if you could say they're contemporary, but So at, like power. There's prayer before the power starts.
Aaron Brien:Is Yeah, and I don't know why. Yeah. I don't know why I've never known why.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, the ad that what you said, seems more natural. So at the end, you know, to send everybody off. That seems more natural.
Aaron Brien:But that announcement at the beginning, is paramount, because that's telling the camp, telling the group. This is why we're here. Yeah, these people brought us together for this reason. So that's this reason, is what we're going to do today. Yeah. You know, I learned that when they have them tobacco ceremonies, they'll start those and they get right to business. They say Mamak Kumar Mook. We're going to begin, everybody, we're going to begin. Yeah, that person will get their items ready. Really announcer will then say, well, actually, at those ceremonies, they start right away with the singing and stuff. Yeah, after so many songs, they stop. That's when the announcer gets up, brings the sponsor over and says, This is why we're here today. This is why we're doing this. Yeah, this person asked us to come together for this reason. So that's the reason for us to be here. So like, let's just say we we put on a conference, and let's generically Hi native hydrology. Right? Okay. Sure. That means when that announcer gets up on behalf of who's putting it on, and in this case, it would be us. Yeah, we would have our announcers say, this is what we want you to say. That person is going to say it and he would, he would say, This is why they brought us together. Everyone who's going to speak today is going to speak on issues related to native water. There's times for other topics elsewhere. But today, this is why they brought us here. They asked us to be here. So in that moment that mimics to me, yeah, ceremonial realism. Yeah. When somebody asked you to conduct a sweat, this is a sweat we're going to have today for this reason. And it's okay. To be specific about that reason. Sometimes I feel like we're told like, it's too broad. Like we tell people like this really broad. No, there's times they say, this young man wants a child. Yeah. You know, and people think that's weird. No, that's the way it is this young man. He's married. They're trying to have a child. He wants a child. This is why he asked for this. So yeah, all of us in here collectively, are going to ask for that for him. Yeah.
Shandin Pete:It's very specific. Yeah. It's, it's real specific, or has no reason at all. You're just there. Yep.
Aaron Brien:It's what it's what yeah. Yep. Yep. And then sometimes, there's just as much power in this in the ritual of it. Right. I came here today. And I built my fire. I put in the rocks. We got the sweat ready. The act of it itself. Ritual, and there's something to it, right. Yeah. And in those times, it's just like, hey, we had a good week. Yeah, we're gonna have a sweat.
Shandin Pete:Yeah.
Aaron Brien:Let's just hope that it continues. Yeah. So so our conference should mimic something of that nature that yeah, there's a domain. This is the domain we're talking about. And this is what we're going to everyone in that meeting. So to me, it can still follow the format that everyone's used to sessions, speakers in the front. Everything that that initial, like,
Shandin Pete:kickoff, the framing of it the framing, yes. That's
Aaron Brien:badass man.
Shandin Pete:Well, it's like that. It's like what you know, what you hear often is, this has already been prepared for us. Yeah, you hear that? That's kind of like what you're saying. Like when when you go to take a sweat, it's not just you show up and there's wood that split there already and you have nice rocks and and the thing is already built in everything's but there's a lot of work that went into that maybe years and years of preparing, building up, getting things ready making things work. Just really has already been prepared. So
Aaron Brien:and that's why it's important for those people coming. So when those people come to sit in that Lodge, yeah. And participate. It's also out of respect for what just happened. That person came two hours before in the sweater. Got the blankets ready, lit the fire, you know, got the fire. Ready? Good. Got it ready? Yeah, brought the rocks and prepared the water. You know, all of that. Yeah, that when those people came, it's also out of respect for that act. Yeah, he did this legwork. So now we're gonna come so we can use the blessings of this lodge. Had they not do that? I would have been home sitting there. You know? So same thing, if we hold these topics, dear. Yes, topics of research, these topics of regulation, land management, what are sciences? Whatever it is, if we hold these topics, dear, and we want to give them the proper attention. Yeah, maybe we should start conducting ourselves in an authentic way, where instead of doing this, like fake, it had the flag song now, you know, like, you've asked some people to come in. And it's like, yeah, that's cool. And I get it. That's that's a sign of respect, but also, for those who are participants. And believe, if you made that announcement, if you said, this is why we're here. This is what we're here to do. They would relate to that. Yeah, they would relate to that. You go to Fort Hall, you go to the Sundance, the same thing happens that announcer reminds them and in some cases, it's the same person running it reminds This is why the largest builds, these are the sponsors. This is why we're doing this this year. Blah, blah, blah, you go to the medicine dance, you go to jump dance, you go to the the seven or the bells, you know that religious that religion, you go to pod you go to anywhere. And they announce, yeah.
Shandin Pete:Sets the sets the tone, sets the tone. And like you said, oftentimes that's that is accompanied by singing, generally speaking, it is. But not just anything. Not just any old, any old song. It's some in particular, some very specific, specific for the moment, to gather to call attention to or to begin something in a way that's accustomed. So how do you bring that in? No, that does that seem to cross the boundary? Like to bring something ceremonial into something that's non
Aaron Brien:about this. How about this? Okay, how about this? We are. This might only work if everybody involved is menfolk, but maybe not. Maybe you could kinda, maybe the day before the conference starts. The people putting the conference on in this case us? Yeah, maybe the people we've invited to guide us or whatever. Yeah, we go to that place where we're gonna have the conference. Yeah. And we smoke.
Shandin Pete:The menfolk? Yeah,
Aaron Brien:I mean, I think there's a role for the women and all that. I don't know how we would work that out. But there's a way but we would spoke we would say tomorrow. Are things gonna start? Yeah, yeah. We want to make sure everything's right. We want people to travel here safe. We want people to, to leave here safe. We want people when they speak that they're heard. Yeah, when they speak. It's, it's done in a way that's appropriate. Yeah. So we're gonna smoke about it. And we're gonna smoke right here where it's gonna happen. See at some of these ceremonies that I know about the day before they'll smoke there.
Shandin Pete:Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:So maybe it can kind of mirror and it's still it's not for the public. It's not a showmanship thing. It's just those people planning this event. That's what they're going to do. And so maybe it'll set people in the right space. Like we say, this is why we're here. We're not here. Now. Once we start this conference, it's not about putting ourselves in a front. Our job now is to provide a venue in which these topics can grow.
Shandin Pete:So we're doing so you're saying we couldn't charge for the pre conference event. The pre conference smoke, the pre conference smoke.
Aaron Brien:I mean, we could just
Shandin Pete:be a premium Yeah. For the silver medallion, for
Aaron Brien:the for the White Buffalo members there are four colors. So the sacred
Shandin Pete:if you're just in the Sacred Hoop category, yeah, you gotta get up into that white buffalo category to get the pre conference discount. Discount.
Aaron Brien:I'm sorry, ma'am. You purchased the Turtle Island package
Shandin Pete:now, I think you're onto some, but this but this is the thing that I'm somewhat concerned about is that idea of crossing a well, I don't know crossing over ceremonial ism into this thing. What if it's not that thing that I think of as like a conference, you know? Yeah, but then it don't matter, then it doesn't matter.
Aaron Brien:But but but think of this in the old days. Yeah. Not even the old days. The 50s is still going on. Even on your reservation. Yeah. 70 years ago, somebody would come to your home. They were family would come to your home and visit, right. Yeah. A meal was prepared. Yeah, coffee was made. And it was common for men to sit and smoke together.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, let's smoke water.
Aaron Brien:I came here to talk to you about something. Let's smoke about it. And they would do it they would visit it would tell sometimes it was a serious thing. Sometimes it was. I know a story. I'm going to tell it to you. I want to hear your version of it. Simply that right? Or my son here. He's gonna he wants to start being a jockey. You used to be a good jockey. So we're gonna smoke and I want you to talk to him. Yeah, you know, simple things. And it happened pretty natural to the point where like, if you brought that up to most people, they probably wouldn't even recognize it as something ceremonial. Right? Remember, like, oh, yeah, I remember when my uncle used to come over or whatever. It really that's an act. So when people get together to speak about things, some that's an act like pretty shield, my grandma's grandma's said, words are wholly, you know, careful with them. You know, so like, we joke, but those conference things have the potential to be places where people really can be affected by what's being talked about, but instead what it turns into. It's like, where's my swag bag, and when you're gonna let me out, so I can go check out the mall, you know. And that's cool, too. Like, I kind of feel like that's part of it, too. That's still a part of you gotta allow for people to do that. Some people don't get vacations. Some people don't get days off of work like, like, in the traditional sense of getting time off. Like, I know, my job. Typical. It's like, it never really ends. Yeah. So sometimes when I go on a trip, I might have an afternoon to go do something fun that I normally won't get to do. Yeah. And so experience.
Shandin Pete:So let's bring into the area. That's part of it, even if it's a mom.
Aaron Brien:I think I think we could call it a conference. But really, it might, it might be something else. It might not be maybe it might be identifying. So like, let's go back to our water idea. Yeah. Maybe now collectively, you and I will identify people that we want to hear what they have to say about water in one bite them. And then maybe this get togethers just for a select few. I don't know. I don't know how it would look, you know. But it's possible to say that you could do something like that you can I think they're they're in you might, you might just call it. You don't want to call it a talking circle.
Shandin Pete:But that's familiar, but he knows it. Yeah. We don't want to do that. I know that. I mean, that's, that's not to that's not too out of the ordinary to invite people. That's essentially what these conferences do. Right. The people put proposals in to say, this is what I want to talk about. And a committee looks at those and say, Yeah, this fits this doesn't fit.
Aaron Brien:But I think we would, but we wouldn't do like a call for papers. No, no, no. I'm all for post. Nobody would say is like, I think for us because we do have a bias in research you and I like we have a certain way we want to do Yeah, talk about Native people. So we would have to identify those people that reflect our mission. Yeah, and I know people are gonna say well, that's bias and all that what don't come this isn't mandatory for you, you know? Yeah, if you like our brand of topic and you like our brand and our approach to how we do things, yeah, then this might be the thing for you. And that's not in a confrontational way. That's just an A not everybody thinks the way we do and that's all right. Right. Right. I just like to make fun of them
Shandin Pete:I think we got something here, man. I mean, maybe. Okay,
Aaron Brien:here's a topic that I want to I want to, I don't know about. Yeah. And it's popular, but I want to flesh it out. I want to flesh it out. Yeah, I wanna, I wanna, I want to beat it to death in a weekend. And honestly, it's like, it's got its level of cheese. But is there some validity to it? Who are the experts at it? Yeah. And that's cultural burning. You hear people talk about it. I hear it kind of being a thing. You and I even kind of got roped into doing like this training thing, which I got double booked and couldn't go to
Shandin Pete:he has all abandoned me. Yeah. burned by that. But yeah.
Aaron Brien:I was good. It was good. So let's just say 10 conferences that purely for for for that? Like, I don't know, about it. I don't know about it. I know. I can kind of figure some things out, navigate through but who are the experts? And then really figure it out for myself. Like really say, hey, yeah, and then maybe at the end of the conference, I say this theory don't hold water. Yeah. Maybe I come back and say, you know, I was wrong. I was thinking of this thing wrong. Yeah. There's, there's but there's several topics like that where just because they're trendy. Yeah, doesn't mean they're wrong. And that's my, I've noticed that's my approach lately. Like I'm kinda like cynical. Which that's nice. Dude, that's never gonna go away. Right? That's not Oh, no, no, no. What I'm also opening the hearing people out and saying, okay, yeah, yeah, the medicine or the what is it? The medicine who thing,
Shandin Pete:the medicine hoop I made, it's on the wheel. Well,
Aaron Brien:I make fun of it all the time. But I'm also I admit, I haven't made a whole lot of time to understand it either. Even even though it comes from a non native person, but maybe their intentions really were to try to create something for Native people. And I mean, maybe yeah, maybe I don't know. But like Maslow, right Maslow kind of got his his pyramid of whatever he calls it. Yeah.
Shandin Pete:Hierarchy of Needs. Hierarchy of Needs.
Aaron Brien:He kind of he kind of stole the idea from the Blackfoot. Paying a teepee. Right. And so I'm trying to understand things like that, you know? Yeah. Go deeper, go deeper into into things like China, like, Yeah, I'm gonna make fun of them. Yeah. And I hope people who listen to us know like, I'm going to continue to make fun of things. But that doesn't mean I'm not open to understanding them. Yeah, I make fun of myself all the time. So
Shandin Pete:well, you know, what I'd like to see in these, in this hypothetical conference that we're, or whatever it is that we're thinking of, is, is argument, disagreement. It has to happen. We're so afraid, even even if I go to a conference, and I disagree with whatever's being said in this conference. I don't want to say nothing because I feel like I'll hurt somebody's feelings or destroy their ego to where they give up. Even Even if I said it in a tactful persuasive way, there might be some sort of repercussion. So we get timid and we're afraid because of the response, and maybe even the manner in which we challenge ideas is not we don't quite have have that yet. But I don't know how to bring that in that debate, you know, the true native debate of things.
Aaron Brien:So I brought this up at a consultation this summer. Yeah, in Wheatland, Wyoming. We're at the energy company where I said I said right in there and actually caused kind of a firestorm of issues for me. And I won't get into details there. But I said right away, I said, if you are uncomfortable with being in awkward situations and saying things that people need to hear that this isn't the job for you. Yeah. And my statement was taken as divisive. I was in trying to be unified. And so here's my my, my counter to that when I was told and I'm sure if you brought topics up like this, it would be be the same thing. Well, we want to unify. We're trying to unify people. We want to bridge the divide. All that. Here's my thing. I don't.
Shandin Pete:What is the thing we always hear? We're 500 unique. Tribal nations. Yeah, we're unique. Yeah. relentlessness and ideas. Yeah,
Aaron Brien:let us be unique. And so I'm not again, I'm not. I'm not against anybody. I'm just for who I am. Yeah, Crow Indian. And why do we got to take second place? And so when you say that, people take that as like, well, you're not for me. Of course, I'm for you. I'm never going to be a roadblock to you. I'm never going to be a roundabout for you. I'm going to get out of your way. And let you do what you got to do. And I'm going to support you. But at the same time, I got to worry about my stuff, right? Yeah. And so to me, research is the same thing. So when you take a topic where you take, you take a method of research, yeah. It can't grow unless you criticize it. And people take that as you saying, it's worthless. I'm not saying it's worthless. I'm saying it had to be there. Yeah. Yeah, it has to be there. And to assume that traditional ecological knowledge is a polished thing, or to say that indigenous research method is a polished thing. Right? Now, that's just naive, isn't it? And so until we can get to a place where people can criticize not only their own forms of research, but question others and say, Hey, like, I'm not doing this, because I hate you. I'm not doing this because you fell. But I really am questioning your method because of a, b, and c. Yeah. Now it's your turn to talk. You know what I mean? Yeah. But people don't want to do that, because they're so afraid. They're so afraid to make people uncomfortable, but they're also afraid of biting the hand that feeds them. Oh, yeah. And that's real man. I've seen it with with, with Native people, where it's like, we got a thing going, we're not going to mess with it. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying we can tweak the thing. We can make the thing work for us.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah. We need it and I need it. I need it. And I don't know how. And maybe it's this, maybe it's this, this, this sort of intro to this idea we're forming that sort of sets the sets the guidelines for that, you know, that you have to go in knowing that some ideas might get challenged, or I don't know, even like all this pre work that ought to happen to say, you know that. Yeah. Like you said, You got to get uncomfortable. But I don't want to get uncomfortable,
Aaron Brien:man. I just don't like for the first like, save for the first get together we have and maybe it just needs to be like, indigenous research method. This is what they say it
Shandin Pete:is right now. Yeah. Yeah. Methodology. Yes. This
Aaron Brien:ingredient, this methodology. This is what it is right now. Yeah, but let's take it apart, like a carburetor and put it back together and see if it holds up. And I'm telling you right now, it's not gonna. Yeah, and I know for these reasons, but we can't get to the good thing. until this happens. Because this had to happen. The cheese had to happen. Comfortable stuff had to happen. Yeah, the I think indigenous research method is like the seat at the table. We fought for the seat of a while the seat at the tables now. We've had it for a little while now. So now now it's let's get in the driver's seat. You know what I mean? Yeah, so we think we made it palatable. We made it, whatever. Let's get after it, man. Yeah, I'm talking a lot. I'm sorry. Well, no,
Shandin Pete:you got a lot to say. Yeah, this is this is what makes me sort of a well, okay, so the issue is this. It depends on the audience, right, the audience that's, that would engage in this sort of content. Conference idea is going to be a wide range of people. And today, this era that we're in, you know, this idea of identity is, I don't know, people are so sensitive about it. But it, it seems pretty straightforward to me when I
Aaron Brien:look at it. That's how I look at it too. But
Shandin Pete:one of the issues is, it seems, and I might be off on this, and this is where I think this sort of conference would, or idea of meeting would be would be helpful. This is what I see is that the narrative of what indigenous research methodologies is, is largely driven by and we've talked about this before the non practitioner. So there's a lot of stereotype, romanticism, things that not aren't quite practical and maybe not reflective of modern tribal process. And I think that's if that's challenged, people get bit sensitive, especially those who are maybe reconnecting with their identity. And this is the pathway they've chose to reconnect is through research, through employing research methodology that appears to be guided by an indigenous approach. That's going to be hurtful man. To them. And, but why should I care here? Why should I care? It hasn't.
Aaron Brien:But it also be hurtful to me. Am I being mean? What if I do this whole thing? And then it's like, you know what, I'm the one that's wrong. What if you what if it comes out? Like no, Chandi? Like, no, you started out maybe they're right, on this, but you're wrong on this? And I think that's what people need to do. We need it. Yeah, it's, we can use it we, we can get researchers to say our land managers are people who implore a method of working with Native people, we can say use this as a springboard to challenge your way of thinking to make it better. Yeah. So we can say whatever your topic is, whether it's cultural burning, whether it's native hydrology, or, you know, like indigenous approaches to blank, fill in the blank. And then when you come to find out, it's like, well, what am I doing? And is there a time for it not to be indigenous? Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's one, chemistry is chemistry dude. Like, and maybe, maybe it's okay, not to put a feather on it this time. Indigenous
Shandin Pete:approaches to shoe tying like, Oh, come on a
Aaron Brien:shoe. Like, once you your perspective, and it's like, we all I do, I do know, I do know if we do something like this. I don't know living in two worlds
Shandin Pete:shit, ya know, one world, one world.
Aaron Brien:It's one world man. This is the world we got to do one world order. Yeah. And, and also man, here's, here's a thing. That's what this is a hard nosed episode, man.
Shandin Pete:We're getting it all out. Stat. I
Aaron Brien:feel I feel it is bad. So like, I feel us as Native people need to write the ship again, we need to like go back to ground zero in any research or in field sciences. You have a datum? Yeah. And that everything drawn from that datum? Yeah. And maybe for us. In the world of research, or people who are on the fringes, the satellite people, we have to be reminded every once in a while, what that datum is, yeah, the differences is now we're going on three to four generations. Now, native researchers. At this point, we got to say, it's us who has to self govern. Yeah, the researchers, because now when we reach back to the data, which is our culture, or languages, or ceremonial life, for some people, it's not there, and it's not as accessible anymore. So now it's up to the researchers to self govern. That also means people got to hear stuff that they don't want to hear. Because if we're really trying to affect and in fact, Indian country in a way where this research benefits tribal people, because right now, it doesn't seem like it benefits tribal people. We have to remind them that and I'm not that seemed that sounded really self righteous just now, but it's not up to me to remind them, but I think we have the we have the machismo, okay, okay, okay. I'm going to go forward with it. I think people I don't here's his controversial thought. I don't think that we're the first people to think of something like this. No, no, I don't like we might be the first people that are willing to do it.
Shandin Pete:Maybe we'll see what happens.
Aaron Brien:Me, maybe I'm gonna talk myself out of this whole thing. It sounds like a lot sounds like a lot of work.
Shandin Pete:Well, I you know, there's like minded people out there. There is there is that there is and that are and there's also people that are not like minded but are willing to listen and willing to try and give things a chance. I don't give people enough credit. In that regard. It's kind of presumptive of me to think people get their feelings hurt. Who might say that? They will? Maybe they won't. Maybe they will, you know?
Aaron Brien:In fact, maybe we won't even tell them anything they don't already know. Right. Right. Right. Right. And we're like, but there's still a benefit to that. Right? The benefit is that we got to hang out with like minded people, which is always bad. Yeah. and validate
Shandin Pete:validate some things. So
Aaron Brien:do you remember what we used to do those? Those Visiting Scholar things where Yeah, where an individual would come and present? Yeah, to us as indigenous research center, but we'd have the students, the students would get to watch right, yeah. And then that person would sit down at this table, and we would talk about their research. Yeah. Maybe that's what it is. Maybe that's all it is. This conference is just saying. People will volunteer their topics. Yeah.
Shandin Pete:I liked that. I liked that setup that we did like that. It was cool. seemed to make sense. Yeah. Shares learning. Yeah, it was fun. Yeah. And we were able to sort of challenge lightly the things that we were thinking, I thought, yeah, man. So
Aaron Brien:maybe, maybe that's, that's all it is. It's like, hey, because we don't want to obviously, I don't know anything about chemistry. I don't know anything about string theory. So we would have to invite certain topics, right? Yeah. That, that we we feel comfortable talking about, but it would be nice with along with other people. And yeah. And that, and we were just people would volunteer their topic, their research topic, to present in front of us with an audience. And by them volunteering there, that there's, they're telling us they're open to hear suggestions and our criticisms, if they if they don't want that they don't have to volunteer and there, but we invite people to come and participate as audience members. And as witness, you even said that you said that at one of those things. Your job is to act as a witness. Yeah. And so which is a vital that's also that's also a native, very vital,
Shandin Pete:vital role.
Aaron Brien:Oh, my gosh, you're going to do it. We're going to do it now. Let's come up with it.
Shandin Pete:I see the start of it. I see the start of it. It's like the thing we did. That's the start of it. Maybe a one day, maybe one day, maybe half day, start small. Test it out. See if we can get people to argue and and what
Aaron Brien:do you think of what sort of resolve what and then maybe we keep it regional? Because like we don't want to get too out of our out of like Spokane.
Shandin Pete:Yeah,
Aaron Brien:let's do it in Spokane, where there's, it's close enough to the plateau folks, you're close enough to the coastal folks, you're close to the plains folks are doing like in
Shandin Pete:her Bozeman,
Aaron Brien:Bozeman spendy, man. Super spendy not boast but I mean, but warlin There we go overwhelmed there.
Shandin Pete:Oh, yeah. It would
Aaron Brien:piggyback off of the School of anthropology, the American Studies program. Yeah, it could happen. But we also do it in Pocatello, Idaho, man.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah. Here's the pitch then. Okay, some dough. We need some cash.
Aaron Brien:Well, we started GoFundMe.
Shandin Pete:Naturally.
Aaron Brien:We would need we would need we would need How about your institution? Would they flip some money over?
Shandin Pete:Yeah, maybe it's, it's it's a it's a novel idea. And yeah, I could see some funding. Of course it has to be. It has to occur across the border. I think we'd be the only thing.
Aaron Brien:That's fine. Calgary, including Calgary Lethbridge. You could do it in, in in. I don't know if I want to go to Vancouver. But that's where you're at. Right?
Shandin Pete:That's where I'm at. Now. You're in Victoria. No, Vancouver. Okay. It
Aaron Brien:could happen in Vancouver. I was thinking of Victoria. But um I just I, I feel like if you put it in a place where everyone's to go, it also seems like it invites people who don't really want to be there. Yeah, you make you put it in Winnemucca Nevada. You're gonna get people that show up. That means they want to be there. You know what I mean? But you do it in in in Vancouver and Seattle. Those are beautiful towns that people want to go to like, especially in late spring or summer, early fall like God dang
Shandin Pete:man, or Las Vegas there and I NFR Oh,
Aaron Brien:yeah, do it. Do If you're just gonna get a whole bunch of people, which that's fine, too, but we got to be cognizant of the purpose, right? The kinds of people we want to attract. Yeah. We want to attract people who who are open to that. Yeah. Yeah, of course, we're gonna get those who are just chillin, but maybe it's like Denver?
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah, that's a good place think. Well, let's keep this. Let's keep this thought. Open. We're, we're not? I think so. I think we're gonna get to some comments about ideas. I'd like to hear a critique of some listeners, just throw us an email and say,
Aaron Brien:I can't wish our listeners with the jab was a little bit mad like, yeah, I didn't agree with you when you said this. Yeah. Yeah. Like,
Shandin Pete:yeah, I
Aaron Brien:expected a little bit more backlash from the smoke signals comment.
Shandin Pete:People, people love that episode. Man. I'm hearing a lot of folks saying that was our best episode.
Aaron Brien:Oh, it's hard to beat. It's hard to beat dogs land, man.
Shandin Pete:I know. Yeah. That's a tough one. Yeah, send us some comments. I did get a few comments about some episodes, saying that. The caution of of mixing what method and methodology is not Yeah, I used. Yeah, there is a difference there.
Aaron Brien:Right. Whoever said that there is a difference in method. And methodology. I used to always say this, and maybe whoever's listening who said that, correct me if I'm wrong, but I used to always say how it starts is a philosophy of philosophy leads to a theory, a theory leads to a method and a method leads to Oh, methodology, they go ology leads to a method.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, the methodology is what guides you to the appropriate to method?
Aaron Brien:Yes, yes. Yeah. Sorry. I said those backwards. But yeah, that's what I meant to say. But I, when we had the research center, I used to say that I don't know if you remember this, I would say IRM. To me, is still just a philosophy. Yeah, yeah. It's a research philosophy. Yeah.
Shandin Pete:I agree. And I've been, I've been sort of, through my, through the past couple years, five years, I've been jotting down some characteristics, I think that are definitive of that. Research philosophy, I think. And we'll we'll talk about that. One of these episodes, but but for now. Yeah. Shoot us an email. Let us know your thoughts and ideas about this emerging idea. That'd be cool. Man. And the Yeah, correct. Us too. I want to hear that. I want to hear that too. And if you have any private donors, any wealthy What do you call them? What do you call them? The
Aaron Brien:sugar daddies.
Shandin Pete:Only wealthy sugar daddies? Well, by the by nature, they're wealthy. Yeah. Let's do it. Let's do it, man. Okay. That's it. Yeah, we started, we started talking about songs. I got all mixed up and what I was trying to say.
Aaron Brien:And then I like it when we don't have a topic, man,
Shandin Pete:we don't want to talk about we don't want to talk about nothing specific. So sometimes,
Aaron Brien:I think sometimes there's a need for it. But I think part of what this podcast does for me, it's like therapeutic man.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Get some ideas out. Well, and we didn't mention that. Some of the current stuff that's going on right now. appear in Canada, and America. The devastating news. We didn't we didn't mention one bit of it. We don't want to wait. What Wait, what? Where are you? You don't know. Your dad.
Aaron Brien:I don't have Facebook. And I don't watch the news. Yeah.
Shandin Pete:You know, the whole Buffy Matthew Perry, the Buffy Sainte Marie. Deal? No,
Aaron Brien:I don't know what you're talking about. That's
Shandin Pete:awesome. And now Now we get to the end of it. So no, you go Google some things. And next episode, we'll talk about it.
Aaron Brien:I don't want to talk about Buffy Sainte Marie I don't either.
Shandin Pete:She she's not native. Yeah. Yeah. Is that what it is? Yeah, she was outed as a pretending
Aaron Brien:Oh, dude, if we're gonna start that then yeah, whatever, dude. Yeah, whatever. Do you want to pretend the ends there are This is not leave new singer alone. That's funny because I didn't know I just said it. I just said it. I'm gonna say right here it doesn't bother me one bit that Buffy Sainte Marie is not a native because for one I doubt she sits in a doubt she's making calls with with tribal people. I doubt she's sitting in ceremonies and holding rights. more worried about these scholars, these guys who claim to be something and they're not they they want to run Native studies departments. They want to run like indigenous philosophy departments, they publish on behalf and it works and it's like, I don't care if you're non native and you do native research and you and you do work with Native people just tell me that I'm okay with I don't need you to be something you're not I'm not going to pretend to be something on my smart escrow Indian kid that hung out with the flatheads for a lot a lot of times I listen to punk rock and reggae and I love round dance music you know I talk shit that's what I do
Shandin Pete:yeah, that's big issue when really addressed it too much. Anyway, look on look on your Yeah, Google something's getting figured over I am way Oh, yeah wasn't it the it was the going back to it was a she sang that song with Edmund bowl member. Back to Canada.
Aaron Brien:Oh, anyway. darlin, darlin. Yeah. And she would hit her guitar. Oh, yeah.
Shandin Pete:Anyway, let's wrap this.
Aaron Brien:Oh, you don't have to the whole Buffy part you could take out yes
Shandin Pete:dum dum dum 60 years later find out what mostly everybody then the
Aaron Brien:native gospel singers do. Come on. Let's do that. Let's get let's get the native Pentecost singer. A Cena run for his money.