In this season 3 kickoff episode we welcome back Aaron with an investigation into some of our past discussions.Since his absence in the past four months we have had a chance to review past episode to find opportunities to dive deeper into unresolved matters. Specifically we reintroduce the idea that criticism in Indian Country should not stray into dogmatism. This launches us into further discussions into whether tribal understanding can hold multiple truths. An interesting divergence is made into a discussion on similarities that may be found in the non-overlapping magisteria view described by Steven Jay Gould in 1997.
The episode continues by touching in the apparent uniformity characteristics of tribal people. The conversation centers on the idea of a common belief in light of religious and other assimilative forces working to erode tradition and norms. The discussion remains unfinished as we tackle the notion that rituals ought to evolve The questions remains as to why some disappear while others change form.
In this season 3 kickoff episode we welcome back Aaron with an investigation into some of our past discussions.Since his absence in the past four months we have had a chance to review past episode to find opportunities to dive deeper into unresolved matters. Specifically we reintroduce the idea that criticism in Indian Country should not stray into dogmatism. This launches us into further discussions into whether tribal understanding can hold multiple truths. An interesting divergence is made into a discussion on similarities that may be found in the non-overlapping magisteria view described by Steven Jay Gould in 1997.
The episode continues by touching in the apparent uniformity characteristics of tribal people. The conversation centers on the idea of a common belief in light of religious and other assimilative forces working to erode tradition and norms. The discussion remains unfinished as we tackle the notion that rituals ought to evolve The questions remains as to why some disappear while others change form.
recording in progress this Listen, listen to this Jim. I think I listened to this before but I don't remember. Are you ready? I'm ready. I don't think you ready I'm ready. Okay here it is that sounds good good tune yeah
Aaron Brien:that second hard coding they're hard
Shandin Pete:you hit that second and you just that guy you know he's he's got it he's the really good lead but he's not didn't have a lot of experience you know he's got to take time to get ready to lead.
Aaron Brien:Oh is the clear the throat clear?
Shandin Pete:Yeah. So you'll cut and then spend maybe saying half of the first start and then get ready you know find that nice sweet spot on the throat me pinch to clear the throat Yeah, and he kind of looked nervous around like your hand or your leg and
Aaron Brien:then they put their hand on their their this above their knee member and you kind of like put
Shandin Pete:my shoulder brace a brace.
Aaron Brien:Oh, and if
Shandin Pete:you've missed three quarters of the start already. But man when that lead comes in. Sweet, nice and high. Crispy. Bouncy,
Aaron Brien:bouncy. You got the high base, the low treble OH
Shandin Pete:MAN Yeah,
Aaron Brien:that's one man one man show
Shandin Pete:Yeah, and you will nobody can nobody can second him nobody Oh
Aaron Brien:Jr. Merrick
Shandin Pete:people try to second but it sounds like an old analog tape recorder
Aaron Brien:just kind of all over the place and then as soon as it drops and everyone kind of falls in line again and then
Unknown:yeah
Shandin Pete:build up to the next
Aaron Brien:you know people think singing is like that the highest in the Saturday night rockin you know everyone's tune but really the highest in that little tiny power that like no one everyone's at because the the winters long. Yeah, and no one's really that good. But a fella can just kind of take leads when he wants to take leads. He can sit in on a drum and take over from one song. Yeah, yeah. And he can like come and go as he pleases. Oh, yeah. No pressure is kind of a half assed arrogant guy. You gotta come in and you just take a lead. No one even passes you the lead. You just gotta like, just take it is take it. That's when
Shandin Pete:you can you can dial it up to what? Almost to 100% of your, your ability, you know? Yeah, otherwise if you're in a contest, you know, you just learned the song you know, not that well. Kind of bashful. Yeah. A bit bashful. Maybe not quite in tune with everybody yet. That's like that first song on a Friday night of the contest. I
Aaron Brien:don't know why I think of Wait, did I freeze up?
Shandin Pete:No, you're still good. I can hear you.
Aaron Brien:Did I? Um, I think of all Mac for some reason. Oh, Mac Washington. When everything you're describing I think of all Mac Washington. I don't think it was summer time and and I don't need to go Bender in the winter but that's what I think of
Shandin Pete:it all Mac that's quite the experience. You haven't been you got to experience at least once in your life.
Aaron Brien:I want to switch dance contest. isn't all Mac Washington in like 2000? Really? 584
Shandin Pete:You are froze up, but I can still hear you. Yeah. Can you camera for a second and turn it back on? Because you got an ugly face that's frozen on my screen. I don't want to look at it.
Aaron Brien:Let's not do that.
Shandin Pete:You don't want the ugly face? No, I mean the name If there ain't many poses that you got to choose from.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, yeah, that was in the White lodge days when I was kind of singing white lodge a little bit of a scene with them a whole lot. But I learned a lot about singing. Yeah, I learned Yeah. About like learning songs fast, you know?
Shandin Pete:Oh, yeah. That's that's high stress, man.
Aaron Brien:I think it actually can ruin you though. Yeah. Because like, I noticed people who I'm not just not all people, but like when you're trying to learn songs from your own people. Yeah. Because because of the power world you've conditioned yourself to like learn songs on the fly.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, yes. You know,
Aaron Brien:you know what I mean? Yeah. Your song retention is a little harder. It seems like
Shandin Pete:this. It is. I believe it? I don't know. So yeah, you know, lots happened since our last episode. I don't even know when our last episode was hey,
Aaron Brien:oh, I'm wack. Even on the last
Shandin Pete:one, the last episode, I wasn't on it. That's That's how much we've forgotten about you.
Aaron Brien:You guys had the last you had the last episode was Pat. Matt. Pat to the mazet.
Shandin Pete:Yeah.
Aaron Brien:He wasn't filling in. For me. It was just it was more of a internet issue. I've been having these weird internet problems where I can get internet and all this stuff. So Shawn Dean has been patient with me.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, I'm almost I've almost had it.
Aaron Brien:I can tell. That's why our compromise was that I'm in Helena, Montana for Fish, Wildlife and Parks consultation meeting with the state. And we're just going to use their Wi Fi and we're going to record an episode. And kind of get back in the groove of things. And I'll be here tomorrow night, if you want to do another one. But I'm in Bismarck next week, if you want to do and then do it when I do that. And then do it. It's fun. So
Shandin Pete:it was January 19. That was our last episode released and we together know together it was November 24. Oh. That's embarrassing to get your act together. Some of that was my fault. I didn't have time when you had time. You didn't
Aaron Brien:let the record reflect that there was times where I said let's record. I'm free. I can do it now. And you were traipsing all over the world?
Shandin Pete:I was you.
Aaron Brien:I think San Diego at one point.
Shandin Pete:No. I didn't go to San Diego. I
Aaron Brien:think he was in I think he was in Nepal. No. I think I think he was didn't leave the country. I think you were studying. I think you were studying turtles on the Galapagos Islands. Indigenous methods of research. Galapagos Island turtles
Shandin Pete:indigenizing. The Galapagos. Okay.
Aaron Brien:I'm off a little bit guys. That was a joke.
Shandin Pete:off man,
Aaron Brien:because Island turtle joke. No, no. And how did I not segue into Turtle Island?
Shandin Pete:Yeah, you need to you need to be eating. You generally you're eating something?
Aaron Brien:I am actually you're right. It's like Brad Pitt in every movie. He eats I didn't compare myself to Brad Pitt. Just I did. Actually.
Shandin Pete:Let's make that clear. So. Okay.
Aaron Brien:You You did travel? Quite did. You did travel and I did. I was in North Carolina. I was in Phoenix. Yeah. Denver. Tipo work requires you to travel quite a bit. North Carolina was the National Association of Tribal Historic preservation officers. Which they there's a I did a podcast with them. It's called tipo talk
Shandin Pete:tipo duck tipo talk. How do you how do you find it? Just Google tipo ta I think just Google Tipitaka tip o t h POTHP. Uh oh,
Aaron Brien:boy if your
Shandin Pete:bullet sipo Yeah. CIPA
Aaron Brien:Yeah, I recorded it with with the host. I'm sorry, I'm forgetting her name but as a guest, it was myself. Diane up from Fort Peck and Tiana limpy. from Northern Cheyenne, we recorded it together and we can find the link and put it in the deal. So
Shandin Pete:let's do that. That'd be nice. Be nice to do. Yeah, I was in North Carolina, and I got to spend about three, four days with guests. We had Ryan Emanuel, and you remember that? The Vampire,
Aaron Brien:the vampire? I do remember that podcast. And remember, I specifically remember saying that he opened my eyes to a lot of the East Coast kind of struggle and and so I want I want there we were at Cherokee Nation. Yeah. Went to their museum and spent some time there. And man, I was impressed, dude. I admit, I'm telling the podcast public that I was one of those people who teased a little bit about the Cherokee. I wasn't ever mean, wasn't ever mean. But I grew up on a reservation where teasing and talking crazy was nuts. And, but I won't do it anymore. Want to do it anymore? My eyes were opened. I was impressed with what I seen. And
Shandin Pete:it's not they're not he's not Cherokee man.
Aaron Brien:I know. I know. I'm talking about North Carolina and stuff. But he just talked to us about like, yeah, that's the Eastern and his people who are further to the coast, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I'm just talking about North Carolina in general. Like I was there. It blew my mind. I was impressed. You didn't let me finish man.
Shandin Pete:I'm sorry, man. Okay,
Aaron Brien:I'm sorry. We're off.
Shandin Pete:I know.
Aaron Brien:So anyway, I apologize. I want I want the record to reflect that I'm apologizing to the Cherokee people. It's been reflected. And it opened my eyes up to all of the East Coast, especially the southeast that hey, maybe. Yeah, there's a lot more there than most of us think because I'll say it. I'm gonna say right on this bar is all right on here is there's judgment between tribes, you know, hey, there is I think sometimes we in the West, tend to think we're like the last Indians, you know. Yeah. Not true.
Shandin Pete:Not true. Because there's other last Indians.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, I think we're all the last in there.
Shandin Pete:You find them behind the waterfall in in the
Aaron Brien:oxbow? I'm not gonna lie due to some of my favorite movies. No, it is it's I bring it up and it's stupid. No, okay. I like my Indian movies to be fantasy. If I wanted accuracy. I'd watched a documentary
Shandin Pete:on Avatar.
Aaron Brien:I want fantasy.
Shandin Pete:I want accuracy. I'd watch. What is that one man called horse?
Aaron Brien:Oh, if I wanted accuracy, I'd watch Yellowstone. Yeah. debacle.
Shandin Pete:Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I want no, I want to I want to do something here. Based on what you said. About the What did you say credit? What did? What did you say? What are you talking about?
Aaron Brien:I have no idea what you're talking about. You just know. You were
Shandin Pete:saying something really important? Yeah. About tribes? Hey, nine other tribes? Yeah, that there's just some judgment. Yeah. Aren't you listen to something that you said? Way back? Episode 10. Are you ready for it? I don't think you are. This is this is gonna be kind of a time for growth for you. And I really want you to listen deeply. Take the sin and let this be a moment that you can change your life a little bit you know, because we're all a little listeners including me. We're concerned about you. This actually intervention. Your family's all on the line No, I'm just kidding. Here we go. Listen to this. Now. I want you to listen to this. Wait, I don't think I should listen. Okay. Listen to this. God Darn it. Here you go. Then it's left hanging. Just that
Aaron Brien:responsibility. Yeah. Part of it is you take whatever criticism you get but it's also the belief that that criticism isn't dogma, right? So it's not like it's not concrete criticism is just like anything. In the old days when people would tell stories in CRO they would have these stories, telling sessions and somebody would tell the story of like, say a battle. And and then somebody else would say your version was good, but this is how I heard it. And then they would tell their version. And there was no like, no one took that as like, Oh, he's saying, I'm a liar, you know. And now we have, we kind of have that, like, Oh, he's attacking me. And we're back then it's like commonplace to have the same story told three, four or five different times in a night. But it's all by different people telling their version of the of the story. And so to me, I kind of accepted that. And I was like, Well, me and Marty are telling our version of this.
Shandin Pete:And that make you feel
Aaron Brien:the Gross. Gross. Well, I don't want to hear myself. yourself every day. Shut up. I mean, it was I don't know, I guess I
Shandin Pete:don't know. It's like, that was like this. That was like the little kid that seventh grade. That was a seventh grade conversation right there. You know, you won. The the argument when you make somebody say shit. Let's they say, Let's they say in a particular tone, then you end in the battle still on Ashot app, then you still gotta go. You still gotta go more. Grown up. Yeah. But if you said it the way you said it. Yeah, you've been defeated. Okay, go.
Aaron Brien:I got defeated. I mean, I don't know. For one. I don't like to hear my own voice. But yes, sir. I hear it every day.
Shandin Pete:Get over it. Okay, yeah,
Aaron Brien:I don't I guess I stand by that, I guess. But that's I'm kind of okay. You tell me you talk to me. Talk to me, this is your intervention?
Shandin Pete:Well, no, I just thinking about this idea you just mentioned. You know, where, you know, some things happened in the past. Especially as you get older, you reflect back on your things you've said, and but I don't know, you just get you come to this realization that you? I don't know you. You don't you don't know it all. And you say things that maybe don't align with the truth. But then again, this, I think this clip that you're talking about, I think leans on sort of what the truth is. And in this case, it's not it's not really bound. Or it's not. It's not static in time, because even at one particular time, there can be several different versions of the truth. And I think, and I don't know, you tell me what your thoughts are about it. We hear a lot of debate or disagreement in tribal communities about this thing. That is the truth. And you were talking about it in this clip about how in there during that time when these folks are talking about different battles or different stories? Well, there was different versions. There wasn't arguments about it, who just who just the way it was, because everybody could recite it in a different way or add a different perspective or angle on that. So is that do you think? Can this idea of multiple truths or perspectives of truth, would you feel that would be something that would be characteristic of what you might call like this real broad idea of indigenous research or tribal research that that would be one of the things that you'd have to come in knowing that you're not going to arrive at a single truth, but there might be multiple version?
Aaron Brien:Hmm.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. I mean, I think you agree with that.
Aaron Brien:I do. So Cornell West, one times, he was talking about spirituality. And he said that Islam, Christianity and Judaism do not have a monopoly on spiritual currency. So I would say the same goes for truth. You know, there's no single narrative that holds all of truth in it. Yeah. And so there's also no culture that has survived on one narrative, right? Variation. When is is required by humans? Yeah, both I think both generically right?
Shandin Pete:I think very much should yeah.
Aaron Brien:I guess I'm talking about truth, or what this idea of truth is, which I don't know if is, is even a thing, you know? Yeah. Like it. It's not an isolated. So you can't you can just arrive at the most accurate point. But that doesn't always make that that the truth there's truth. Yeah, maybe I don't know should I might not even believe what I'm saying now in two weeks or five weeks, but
Unknown:yeah, I do
Aaron Brien:know variation is important. And so when it comes to indigenous research method,
Shandin Pete:methodology,
Aaron Brien:methodology which which I would I'm actually going to say this I don't think it's a methodology. Okay. I don't even I don't think it's there. I think we we call it that because that's the thing to call it. But I think it's it's in its infancy. It's It's a philosophy. It's it's more of a model. It's an academic model. I don't think it's there yet. I think, I think methodologies theoretical base takes a long time to define, because we're only talking about IRM. In terms of academics. Yeah. Outside of that. It's just us being Indian. Yeah. So we don't need to even worry about that. But yeah, we're trying to fit our beliefs and ideology and intent into this framework. Yeah. That's, that's IRM. So yeah, I don't think it's there yet. So I'm gonna say it straight up, like the heavy hitters and IRM. Yeah, I don't think you're wrong. I just don't think it's there. I just don't think I don't I think method is the wrong term. But that's me. And you might think I'm full of shit.
Shandin Pete:Well, there's a thing that happens. And I think it answers the call of, I guess, sort of this emptiness maybe folks feel. And it's in a such thing you said, so there's a soy, and I don't even want to call it the like a methodology in tribal communities. Because it's not written down. It is not expressed as it is in academics. It's not something that you have to ever write two pages about to establish your, your, the course of your research, none of that ever happens in tribal communities. But there's there is an overarching philosophy of why we do something, and the way that we do it. And I think one of the one of the misunderstandings, when that starts to enter into this space, where there's this codification of knowledge, or the pathways to knowledge, you hear that codify that, that that then those who are looking outside in from that, from that understanding, they want to, they expect to see that. And in the same is true. When we talk about something very simple as the truth. They expect, okay, everything that that you folks are doing ought to be arriving at this singularity? Are this the set of truths that you can write down? What's going on?
Aaron Brien:Like, you're on one? Do I
Shandin Pete:wow, I got a lot on my mind. I got a lot on my mind.
Aaron Brien:I like it.
Shandin Pete:But there's so this is the deal. But there's also now listen to this, I'm listening, because this is about this criticism, or this idea of everybody sort of telling the same story and just kind of agreeing, sort of not to disagree but just agreeing that that's a different story. But or not same story, but different storyline in a way. So in in the discipline of science, in particular. There's there's a whole body of research or belief that yeah, that that also is true that there's that there's many truths are many ways to arrive at the truth. That consensus is not always an indicator of truth. Because you could get many terrible people believing in one thing and government Yeah, making that the the facade of truth, if you will. So there's this thing that came across. I can't remember what the guy's name is, but he was
Aaron Brien:first of all, Real quick, because let's give time for the audience to reflect on what you just said. That was pretty badass. What you just said. I was like, This guy's on one man. No,
Shandin Pete:I mean, we we've we've said all these things are in this. I don't
Aaron Brien:like the way you're talking. It's like, Yeah, I like it. It's a cool, go for it. Keep going,
Shandin Pete:Man I didn't know. And I lost my flow. I lost my flow. No.
Aaron Brien:Are you doing? Do you just take goes your spoofs?
Shandin Pete:No, no, no, no, no. Because at this, this is the thing. Okay. So this is the belief that I hold true that I think seems to be true. Yet, yet. There isn't a consensus. But do I need a consensus? Do I need a consensus? To uphold my belief? No. So I can I can go on alone. Go Rogue and believed thing that I think ought to be the truth?
Aaron Brien:Well, I think I think what you're saying, was your thought completed?
Shandin Pete:is sort of Yeah, I can I can I can. Throw? Well, no, no, I because what I have to say now is sort of unexplored. I can't articulate it as well. Okay. And it's this idea. It's called a non overlapping magisteria. How about that?
Aaron Brien:All right, say that again? Say it again?
Shandin Pete:non overlapping. Say it with me?
Aaron Brien:non overlapping? magisteria magisteria. Okay, can you? Can you tell, okay, based on your research, just your quick, I don't know what you did in terms of research. But what does that mean? Like,
Shandin Pete:essentially, it means that two things can can hold, hold different truths that don't necessarily have to overlap. And that
Aaron Brien:two things can hold. Okay. So this one's this one, one thing can hold different truths when okay.
Shandin Pete:This was this was developed in I think, in this idea of science and religion. So sight, so the common the common line of dispute is, while science believes in this idea of evolution, and yes, this long time period of the evolution of Earth, evolution of organisms in man, etc. Whereas religion has a different story that follows a different timeline. What also talks about the creation of the earth, not in the same terms, the creation of things, living things on Earth, but not in the same terms. But essentially saying that those two things, they're both legitimate, but they don't overlap. And that's okay. They can both live as as separate truth, I guess. That's what I understand a bit. And I just, I just was introduced to the term recently. So that's about all I know about it. It was just kind of just kind of weird, because it's a strange word that kind of sticks in my head. Now, I've never
Aaron Brien:heard it. Yeah, never. I've never heard it. My only knowledge of it now is you, but excuse me, I would agree with it. Yeah. I would agree with that. And I would say that man, okay, so I kind of was talking about something similar, at least when it comes to religion and science. So, yeah. Now, okay, people are gonna attack us on the word religion. We're like, Well, I'm not religious and spiritual. I get it, I get it. So let's just for this conversation will entertain spirituality and religion that kind of, we're going to use them as the same thing.
Shandin Pete:Well, how can you say that? I totally there No, okay. Okay. Okay. All right. Go ahead. We get it. Yeah. So we know what you mean.
Aaron Brien:Science to me, is a lot of things. But it's the power of observation. And it's the accounting of something right? Yeah. So I've always believed that the greatest tool in science is observation. Yeah. And I think most, at least in the long run, most scientists would probably agree right. Your single most powerful tool and sciences observation, now, yeah, as a starting as a starting point as a starting point. Now, I don't know if you're If, in your toolbox, your most powerful weapon is interpretation, right? I've never heard anyone really say that. Your your interpretation of data is one thing, but the ops observation is this the catalyst behind all of this
Shandin Pete:stuff. Yeah. You got to have observation
Aaron Brien:first. Yep. Observation has to be there. You can't do your work without observation. And obviously, the more observation, the more better, the more better. And religion, whether it's Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, native belief, whatever. It's also an accounting for something. I would think that relief when people ask me like, how can you work in sciences and be believing indigenous culture like same for you? It almost seems like that's the thing, whatever it is you're talking about? I can't say that. non overlapping magisteria the magic is the magic is majesty overlap. I don't know what it seems like that's the thing. That's the thing that allows that to happen that you can you can believe I can believe wholeheartedly that the Crow Indians were created by one Creator who commanded for ducks to go into the water and collect mud. I can believe that wholeheartedly. And I do. And I do. And I can also believe, based on the evidence that the theory of evolution is the most accurate theory we have. Yeah, it doesn't bother me. Like, it doesn't hurt me. It doesn't. Yeah. Doesn't say, Aaron, you're less Crow, or you're less whatever. I still feel. Pretty crow.
Shandin Pete:You don't want to go do a book burning of Darwin? No, no, no, no, or try to try to create a competing Museum of of the origin of Earth to compete with the Science Museum?
Aaron Brien:No, no, it doesn't bother me that. Horses were introduced to us later. I do challenge the date in which it was introduced. I challenge the date doesn't bother. It doesn't hurt me. I think there's there's all of this stuff, all the stuff that challenges my beliefs. Maybe that's what it is. Your Majesty.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, I mean, essentially, that's what it's saying. It's saying that science and religion, they can't really contradict each other because they each have their own sort of range of, of inquiry, or they each answer to something.
Aaron Brien:They also have, they sort of have their limit. They have their limitations, correct. Correct. It's also okay to know that we don't need to know everything.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah. No,
Aaron Brien:it's probably safe to say we know too much.
Shandin Pete:Yeah.
Aaron Brien:What is that? I'm gonna I'm gonna type this into a note here. What is that thing? He said?
Shandin Pete:non overlapping magisteria
Aaron Brien:non over lapping majest Hi,
Shandin Pete:ma, ma g i s t e r i a. Stephen Jay Gould. Paleontologist. He's the one who proposed this idea. I don't I don't know. I don't necessarily think it's a new idea.
Aaron Brien:Okay, Malachy great stuffs. g i s t,
Shandin Pete:e. R E. M E g i
Aaron Brien:Gi. Yeah, ma g i
Shandin Pete:s t e r ay. Ay. Ay. Hmm.
Aaron Brien:I got it. It's there though. Okay, got it. Got it.
Shandin Pete:No,
Aaron Brien:I'm just saying man. Like you friggin blew my mind. I don't even know how to. I feel like I bullshitted my way through that response to like what you're trying to get me to do because, man, I didn't I don't know what you're talking about to be honest. And I I'm,
Shandin Pete:well, yeah, I crumbled to your knowledge. No, it's not. It's not that at all, because you already said it. You said it in the in the passage that I played, it's essentially the same thing. But housed within the tribal reality. So you can think in the tribal reality there also, is this idea of the non overlapping magisteria in a way? Well, I don't know, this is what I'm wondering. I don't know. I think today there is because we don't believe the same things, oftentimes within our own tribal groups.
Aaron Brien:Yeah. But I think there's also an artificial, there's an attempt at an artificial narrative like to make it to we've adopted. So going back to the question, when you said, about variation, and about, you played the thing for me, you know, that we've we've learned, we've learned this single narrative thing from something. Yeah, it hadn't existed anywhere. Yeah. And I'm not I don't want to attack the church or anything. But it seems to be that it seems to be that's the basis of it because of the idea of gospel and doctrine. And this idea that this is the official playbook, you know? Yeah. Prior to that tribes. I don't think I don't think they spent a lot of time on the critique of that thing of whatever their stories were, each family had their stories, and everyone liked to hear the other versions. And I don't think there was this competition to say like, there's an official narrative now. I'm leading into something else now. Yes. This is my critique of culture committees.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. We've talked about this quite a bit. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:And I've seen it more and more, you know, I've seen now that I work primarily in preservation and yeah, and it's dangerous. I feel like it's dangerous. And I don't I know people think because everything in US tells us, okay, a culture committee's job is to not only preserve culture, interpret how we're going to use culture, but also like, kind of steward be stewards of it. And in the community. Yeah. But man, it's doing something and I don't know. And, of course, I just I think you and I think the same when it comes to this. But I don't know how many people there are that think like us in are willing to challenge that idea that those are dangerous in the long run?
Shandin Pete:Well, I think I think I think it's right, and I and I would, I would venture to guess that it's this, this indoctrination of what you said about this belief in this one single truth, the Bible. And I'm not a scholar of the Bible. But I wonder how often has the had that changed?
Aaron Brien:I wouldn't assume I would assume it would have had to have changed often because it wasn't English to begin with. But also so there's linguistic variation. But it also like the Gospels themselves are supposed to be the points of view of different people. Yeah. But obviously, you and I are not biblical scholars. Yeah, I'm not a scholar at all. Like I'm not at all. I think I dabbled in that world for a little less not.
Shandin Pete:Let's not play the pity party.
Aaron Brien:I don't work in that though. Chandi. And I don't
Shandin Pete:you're not you're not you can decide what you are. Okay, there you go.
Aaron Brien:To shut up. Shut up. I'm not a scholar
Shandin Pete:fifth
Aaron Brien:grade me, not me. I'm not cool enough. I mean, I guess I'm not a scholar in the sense that you are like, you work in academics.
Shandin Pete:Now we're wondering the same partner, but I'm gonna cut that off. But yeah, no, okay, good. I'm sorry.
Aaron Brien:No, I, I get what you mean, though,
Shandin Pete:I get what you mean to?
Aaron Brien:Yeah, I'm just, I'm just saying that you're a little more polished. Because you're staying in the business. Where like, my job is like regulatory and it's, yeah, it's, it's, in a lot of ways, countered to my beliefs by creating single narratives and getting it on paper. Yeah, but it's the system are dealt and it's right now. It's the only system I agree. It's not the best system but yeah, it is. But damn it I'm shook. I'm shook, man.
Shandin Pete:Well, I'm glad you shook because I'm gonna play one more clip. All right. And this leads right into what we're talking about. Exactly. And I want you to listen to this. This is the intervention time. We want you to get that internet man. We're really getting concerned about you. You're getting kind of reclusive.
Aaron Brien:A kind of like it, man.
Shandin Pete:It's kind of freeing. I've been it do DD get into a lot of TV now because you don't get a lot of internet or you you're always kind of a TV guy though.
Aaron Brien:Oh, I like TV. Dude. I've never loved TV. Never. I've never been one of them guys. That's like, you know, TV will rot your brain. I love TV. Hello. More TV. Oh,
Shandin Pete:okay, listen to this, then. Because this kind of leads into what we're talking about a bit, I think let's see. Are you ready?
Aaron Brien:Okay, here we go. immediately, immediately offended. Okay. I get what you're saying. Yeah. And I don't I don't want people to think somehow, like, I'm some kind of like culture Nazi or something. But
Shandin Pete:I do super, you
Aaron Brien:know, super you. I do think I do think there's been a couple of Seinfeld references in this show. I do. I do think we use our feelings, sometimes as a as a crutch or like a cop out. Sometimes we'll say, Well, this is how I feel. So therefore you, it doesn't matter. You got to accept it. This is how I feel. And it's like, well, I get that and I respect it. But at the same time, too, there is an underlying idea of uniformity among tribal people. And that's what makes us a tribe. But I get what you're saying. The individuality does exist within that system.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. There you go.
Aaron Brien:So this is the thing that was a little better to hear for some reason. The voice part. But what
Shandin Pete:was more a bit more consumable? Yeah, it was. We had it mixed in there with a little bit a little bit of cameo a little bit. Yeah, a little bit of
Aaron Brien:Brenda. Good to hear kami. Yeah, man. Good to hear Brenda.
Shandin Pete:Little bit, a little bit of Sarah and there wasn't back. Yeah, she was in there to laugh round. But
Aaron Brien:Oh. Let's have a good laugh. Have a good laugh sees?
Shandin Pete:Yeah, so this thing. This is what I was talking about. Just non overlapping magisteria. This, this, this idea that there can be these two separate things with different intents and different purposes, that they can exist together. They might have their own individual pathways of inquiry to discover things. And they can exist. They may they might, they might generate their own separate facts. And they might value those things differently. Can that exist internally in a tribal group? Because then it goes against this idea of uniformity, right? To have a tribe, you sort of have to have this overlying uniformity. But uniformity in what way? That's what I'm curious about. I mean, I think I know the answer, but I don't know for sure. I don't know. You know, no. Well, come on, man. You work in this. You work in this. You're just talking about it. The Singularity you have to battle against all the time. He's thinking about it. He's got
Aaron Brien:nothing. I'm buffering froze up. Okay. All right here. Okay. Okay, ask me the question again.
Shandin Pete:Okay. Because so what you said in the clip, was that, inherently, there's uniformity among tribes, there has to be because that's what makes them a tribe. But there's also a characteristic of individual individuality within that tribe. What can exist in the same way that we would think about this overlap non overlapping magisteria? Within a tribe, can you have two vastly separate sort of ranges of pursuits of knowledge? Or do they have to be fairly uniform, guided by you know, what the common thing people say, guided by the create stories of creation? We all believe in the stories of creation and, you know, there's this idea that you all sort of have the same philosophical undertones or underpinnings or we can think of other add those adjectives we need kami I on here to word police's those adjectives underpinning undertone foundation. Go.
Aaron Brien:Um, yeah, my guts gonna say yeah. Yeah, it's, it's possible. So, okay, so the crow, the crow belief is that let me give you an example. Let's just say somebody wants to own a medicine or spiritual power. Okay. Crows believe there's several ways to get that. Yep. There's purchasing, you can go to somebody who owns the thing you want are part of it or whatever. You'll give them gifts, and you'll feed them and they'll, they'll transfer that to you. Yeah. The other way, there's another way that you can fast and you will receive that or whatever. There's some other ways to get on board kind of stick with them, too. Okay. Um, those are very different. Right, and the underlying idea there is that the crows clearly acknowledged that you yourself cannot just conjure up something. Yeah. That's the belief. Okay. That's that underlying thing we're talking about in this example? Yeah. But very different philosophies and going and purchasing something. And going and fasting for something. Okay. Very different. Yeah. I would say they're both appropriate. Yeah. I might myself favor one over the other, our value one over the other. But I would both say that they're correct. Yeah, that if somebody came to me and said, Aaron, I purchased this medicine, I would not say that was wrong. Yeah. Because the root of the belief is that blood least they didn't just say, This is what I have. Yeah, that this is what it's verified by something. Somebody said, This is what I owned. We all acknowledged they had a chance for it to this person. It's verified. There's witness to it. Yeah. So same thing with the fasting, if a given to you, you would you would go to your client, fathers or mothers, and they would tell you what, what it is you it's not you just coming up with something. Yeah, that's the only example I can kind of think of at least offhand of this idea that there is an underlying belief. Yeah. And that underlying belief is simply that we're not, we're not promoting ourselves. Yep. But they're two very different beliefs, and that I can just go and get this one stop shop, or I can do it this other way, which some might say it's harder. Yeah. But I myself am not valuing one over the other. Yeah, they have equal authority. Yeah. How you got there might be easier, whatever. But that's not the point. Yeah, they have equal authority already. So that's the only thing I can kind of think of it on, like a real tangible, kind of like, yeah, here's it. Here's a simple idea that yes, uniformity exists. Good. Variations still exist on top of that. I don't know someone don't don't attack me on like, we don't have layers. It's nonlinear. Whatever. I don't leave me alone.
Shandin Pete:Yeah,
Aaron Brien:that makes sense. What I'm saying
Shandin Pete:that does it does. It does there's different pathways to to gaining the sim the similar thing?
Aaron Brien:Yeah. And then you can probably just replace that there. That idea that? Yeah, it's all going to be like, the kick in the bellies of the crows believe in a different creation story in the river crows? I don't know. Not. That's just Yeah.
Shandin Pete:But, but those would all be those would all be sort of tied together by by by a common belief, right? Yes, yeah. Which makes them not necessarily the thing that doesn't make them fall into the category of the non overlapping magisteria because that says that the belief there's a there's several there's there's no underlying similarity. And my curiosity is if that exists, it seems to exist now but I don't. I can't I can articulate it now. And I think it exists partially in just because of the you know, the boarding school kind of beat into people that belief and religion But I don't know if the that they really they really disbelieve to the degree of denial in traditional ways or whether it's just repressed. I don't know.
Aaron Brien:I don't know. Man, that might be a different episode. I
Shandin Pete:think so I think so. But I've we've talked about it before, but I'm just curious. Because that's
Aaron Brien:this was supposed to be like the get back into the rhythm part we are. This is like, this is a real heavy like, I'm having a hard time like keeping up with you. Dude, you're way smarter than me. That's
Shandin Pete:No, no, I just took some notes. That's all you just you're in a hotel room. Just got done soaking in the hot tub. I did in Helena, Montana. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:opened up my hips a little bit. tight hips. And as the old secure says. Hips Don't Lie. And, yeah, I mean, I don't know, man. Like, you're I think you're right. My gut. It has there has to be examples of it, though. But I get it when you say like, yeah, maybe before a certain time there was. Man, I don't know.
Shandin Pete:No, I think that's the key right there. What you just said, that has to be an example. And if there isn't an example, what is it? Is nothing. Could the horse be it
Aaron Brien:could be just the introduction of the horse? What allowed that to happen within our system? Because if we weren't kind of a dogmatic system, if we weren't kind of Orthodox, we wouldn't allow that foreign influence, we find, we would say our ideology does not allow us to incorporate foreign, whatever that is, right. Yeah. But for some reason, we had a system that allowed for the horse to not only incorporate into the beliefs, but to become part of the fabric of the belief like, yeah, it's accounted for. Yeah. So that's why I mean, if somebody says the horse has always been with us, I get why they say that it makes sense. Because that a debt accounting or whatever this thing is, you're, you're saying these big, smart people were? No, no, no, no. metric. It's Canadian.
Shandin Pete:No, man. No, no, I think you're right. This is the thing. The thing there's so there's flexibility. There's flexibility in the pursuit. The tribal people have you see it, the horses an example. We're not like, and then I'm not going to say nothing bad about Amish folks. You know, the the real, the real orthodox religions that say we're going to live this way. We're not going to modernize even in the modern world, we're just going to stick to the horse and buggy. We were not like that. And then I don't think there was, I don't know for sure. But it seems like we weren't. We weren't predisposition to be like that. Number one, because
Aaron Brien:not to go on the horse. We took on a gun. We took on foreign belief systems in terms of ceremony. We also new forms of ceremony were created within our own systems. There's always evolution in that. But I think whatever that uniformity is, allows for that to happen. And maybe that's this thing. You're talking about this? Yeah. Oh, under the overpass of the mad.
Shandin Pete:I don't know. I don't think it is that I don't think it is that because because the I think the underlying belief remain the same. I think,
Aaron Brien:Oh, I think I get what you're saying now. Yeah. Oh,
Shandin Pete:underlying beliefs that did not change. I don't think that's something okay. So Oh, okay.
Aaron Brien:Now I'm really confused. But now what I can what you saying because I've always kind of held this belief that this belief that sacred people are you can use anyone say this people, whatever. And you can say, okay, there's this core thing, whatever that makes it them. And that's even hard sometimes to just pin down. What it allows for things to come in go out of it. That it still feel natural.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, still feels like it's supposed
Aaron Brien:to be there. So a good example is the crochet shoni. Sundance. Yeah, it's comes from the Shoshone people, but there's nobody, there's nobody that would go to a CRO Sundance and say like, oh, this clearly isn't CRO. You know, like if we found a way to, it fits our beliefs. It encompasses we are It has Robert Louis said the anthropologist. He said crows value success over antiquity. Yeah. And I always took that to believe that if it works, they're gonna use it. If it doesn't, they're going to discard it. Yeah, that also means for their origin, their original beliefs, they're going to push ceremony out, they're going to bring ceremony in. And for some reason, this idea really threatens Indian people today. Because of cultural insecurity. Yeah, there's a cultural insecurity that we have. And, and, but this is something we've always done, it allows for this to happen, whatever this thing is. And I've always seen it as an organism. But yeah, tribal societies and organisms. It's a living thing. It's always 100%. Full, though. Yeah, it's never 80% or 60. Now, if, if there's kinship, in governance, and religion, and, and all this stuff, music, song, all that social organization in it, if you pull one of those things out, that doesn't leave a void, it means the organism replaces it with something. Yeah. So whatever that thing is, it can be it can be new forms of kinship, it can be new religions, it can also just be it can be addiction, it can be Yeah, it can be a church, it can be negative, or the organism isn't, isn't subject to only positive. Yeah, it's not even seen positive or negative. It's just seen it in, it's always 100% for, and it's always gonna find a way to replace itself, replace what's been taken out, and whatever. So if for you guys, if it was like the whole, like a foundation ceremony, like the medicine dance, and I'm not wishing that on it or anything, but if it was pulled out of that organism, your society naturally without even your influence is going to replace it with something. Yeah. And your that might just be an enhancing of something else. Yeah. And you see this in other places where like, the sweat then becomes this bigger thing? Yeah. Yeah. And that's also the reason why they can say, well, this is how it's always been. This is our religion. This is our we didn't add or take away in there. Right. But there's an enhancing that happens to it. Yeah. And I think that is hard for people to admit, though. It is.
Shandin Pete:It is really hard. There's this, there's this, we get hung up on this authentic CISM that we feel like we need.
Aaron Brien:And we equate authentic with old.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, yeah. Now you said it right there. That's it. That's it. To this evolution is natural. It culture has never lost, traditions change, traditions come and go. Ritual changes, ritual changes, rituals come and go ceremony changes come and go. So it seems like this idea of the non overlapping magisteria can't really happen within a unique tribal group. And it seems like it can happen within. But that's what you said something you said something right at the beginning, when we were talking about it, or even before we talked about it, because he said that you can believe wholeheartedly in in the facts and evidence that's produced by science, and wholeheartedly. The facts and evidence produced by your own tribal creation and customs. So I don't think that's a non overlapping magisteria there's some overlap. Yeah. It could be some overlap. There. Could be some overlap there. And for some reason, I resolve. Yeah, go ahead. You're right.
Aaron Brien:You're right. Like okay, so now my understanding of what you're saying is like, that is non overlap, that there is no overlap that because the the uniformity is what's allowing me to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's still that base. There's still that base. I think. I think you're right. I mean, I don't know why. I might have to
Shandin Pete:sleep on it. And you can have to sleep on it because I'd have
Aaron Brien:to put a ribbon shirt on. I'm missing against ribbon shirts.
Shandin Pete:Put it on on a ribbon shirt. Get a star quill. Wrap up in it. Light your your what is that shell that gets used all the time. Oh, watch the conch get the conch. warmed up with a nice wad of sage. Let it smolder near in your presence, then the answers will come to you in a dream. Now this won't be the typical dream that you're accustomed to. Because in this Dream. The animals will talk to you. And they'll tell you the mysteries of life.
Aaron Brien:I don't know I can't keep them. I must make a video. I'm a snake. I'm a snake. I'm a slippery snake. And seen it. Yeah, it's good. It's good, man. How long did we go?
Shandin Pete:We're done. Well, we've been. We've been gone one hour. 11 minutes,
Aaron Brien:I think was good. Let's perfect. Should we go Facebook Live?
Shandin Pete:Let's do it. We're good. So good questions. We're gonna get back to it.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, no,
Shandin Pete:this is good. We needed this let's see who we got on the sponsorship list. And man, these guys have been hanging in there for a long time, man. helping us out. I think you know, we pay for the podcast service. We pay for the transcription service. We've got a website, all those things helps to pay for all those things. Generally, it's just enough to pay for those things. So we just picked up a new sponsor. Not sure. It might be Jacob. Picked up Jacob. I'm not sure where from I suspect but I'm not sure what thanks, Jacob for your donation. Man. It's it's needed. This guy needs his internet. He's pitiful. He can't get his internet. Look at him. If you could see his face now. It's just his downturned lips. He's He's pale. He's probably clammy to the touch. His Internet has been out for months and months. So thanks, Jacob for the donation. Also, Julian Julian Peterson. Coming in with the donation monthly donation.
Aaron Brien:Thank you, Julian. Thank you, Jacob.
Shandin Pete:Heather, we got Heather sub rep. And I think that's how you say her name.
Aaron Brien:Heather. Awesome.
Shandin Pete:She's been with us for since December. So as Julian, yep. Yep. Yep. Nice. And then we've got Ryan Swanson been with us for quite a while since 2020.
Aaron Brien:Ryan, swans man. Ride or Die. Ride or die. I love it.
Shandin Pete:Ryan's our rider die. Yeah, I love it. Yes.
Aaron Brien:I appreciate you. Right. Yes.
Shandin Pete:Yes. Heart to Heart. Another one since 2020. Emma Lafave.
Aaron Brien:Oh, Emma, thank you. Fists.
Shandin Pete:fist in the air rock and roll rock and roll dies
Aaron Brien:loyal cube thanks to the pod.
Shandin Pete:And we've got we've got a few that have been with us since 2021. Mars, Xena. Xena, Mars and x j
Aaron Brien:are Xena J Well, thank you, Martina. Jaya.
Shandin Pete:Thank you, Rachel. Hoelscher. That's another one been with us since 20. Yeah, yep. Yep. Yep.
Aaron Brien:I heard that name. I remember. Yeah. Okay.
Shandin Pete:Okay. Good. And then also Jason free aaj. I think that's how you say his name since 2022. Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. And then rounding off the list we've got some some pretty big sponsors or that's been helping us out member Ray. Ray Donnelly. Scott the artery.
Aaron Brien:Oh yard good. Yep, yep. Yep.
Shandin Pete:Man. Thanks, Ray. You guys still ought to check out his website. What was it? The remember?
Aaron Brien:And museum art of the west or something?
Shandin Pete:I can remember. He used to know. What was it called? Wild gallery. There it is wild gallery. Re Donnelly. Wild gallery. Way to go. Thank you, sir. Go on over to his website. wy LD gallery. Thank you, sir. And then also another big sponsor has been with us since 2021. Todd Davis. I mean, Travis Davis. Sorry about that. Travis Travis Davis. Yeah. Remember Travis Davis? Yeah, still helping us out helping to show on there. Those are our sponsors, man. Thank you. Dang it. Thank you. keeping us alive here. Yeah. Well,
Aaron Brien:appreciate it.
Shandin Pete:You're, you're loved and appreciated. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.