In this episode we have chat with guest Joshua Rosenau. Josh has been living on the Reservation for a number of years and shares his insight as a Non-Native outsider. His experience in connecting with Natives and some cultural pursuits are highlighted as advice for other non-Natives seeking to understand the Native experience. As a non-Native, Josh overviews some mistakes and the lessons learned from these experiences.
As always, thank you for listening!
Guest: Joshua Rosenau
Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)
Episode Sponsor: Wyld Gallery - Austin Texas
Podcast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tribal-research-specialist-the-podcast/id1512551396
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/1H5Y1pWYI8N6SYZAaawwxb
Twitter: @tribalresearchspecialist
Facebook: www.facebook.com/TribalResearchSpecialist
YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UCL9HR4B2ubGK_aaQKEt179Q
Website: www.tribalresearchspecialist.com
Click below ↓ to...
In this episode we have chat with guest Joshua Rosenau. Josh has been living on the Reservation for a number of years and shares his insight as a Non-Native outsider. His experience in connecting with Natives and some cultural pursuits are highlighted as advice for other non-Natives seeking to understand the Native experience. As a non-Native, Josh overviews some mistakes and the lessons learned from these experiences.
As always, thank you for listening!
Guest: Joshua Rosenau
Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)
Episode Sponsor: Wyld Gallery - Austin Texas
Podcast Website: tribalresearchspecialist.buzzsprout.com
Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tribal-research-specialist-the-podcast/id1512551396
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/1H5Y1pWYI8N6SYZAaawwxb
Twitter: @tribalresearchspecialist
Facebook: www.facebook.com/TribalResearchSpecialist
YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UCL9HR4B2ubGK_aaQKEt179Q
Website: www.tribalresearchspecialist.com
Click below ↓ to...
You mad or is it your Elon Musk yet to have a talk with your boy?
Aaron Brien:Is it me?
Shandin Pete:I think so. I hear Josh fine, Josh. Yeah, I hear you fine. He hears me fine.
Aaron Brien:Oh, now you're coming in and clear.
Shandin Pete:Me I am.
Unknown:Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
Shandin Pete:they sound really good.
Aaron Brien:Would you Josh? Fine.
Unknown:Yeah, I don't was there a change
Shandin Pete:was a change in demeanor. Okay. This is ongoing issue. It's one of those things, you know what? Camera? I don't like don't like the Apple camera. Like, not me, it doesn't reflect me it doesn't bring out the finer qualities of well, let me change that. This one works fine. But I look sullen and downtrodden. I don't like that.
Unknown:Speaking of catching your good side men, that that illustration that you have by your email now?
Shandin Pete:Which ones that you're talking about Aaron or me?
Unknown:You? Oh, which one is John being?
Aaron Brien:Yeah. So what does it look like? It's
Unknown:kind of old timey. You know? And it's got like, I don't know. So I only recognize it because I've seen in other people's house like an old old drawing that I guess must have been done in that style of like, pass chiefs. Oh. Oh, he got he got one of them done.
Shandin Pete:This guy's just named me Chief. Chief of the all male tribe. You mean? Oh, okay. Is that gonna be illustration of you? You mean that on the Facebook? Oh, on the old Facebook. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was like a tune me filter. Oh, yeah. You know, cartoon me?
Unknown:Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. Good job.
Shandin Pete:Ai. Yeah, they being the AI? Well, okay. Yeah. Yeah. The algorithm that is AI. Well, the picture does reflect accentuates the demeanor and habit of the of the individual. No, I don't know. The solidness. The sullenness, the downtrodden Enos, Aaron, we can't even hear you. If you're saying anything. You're not coming in. Can I'm going to ask you to unmute. Aaron, I'm going to ask you to unmute your mic. You're muted.
Aaron Brien:Okay, let's try this. Can you guys hear me? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Shawn Dean said count to 10 for me in the Salish language.
Shandin Pete:Okay, count to 10 for me in the solution language. Let's see if you still got it. See if you remember how No,
Aaron Brien:no, no, no, you count me. No, I
Shandin Pete:want you to count and then I'll try to count in the crow. Remember, you can remember at least one
Aaron Brien:enqueue. What? What is it? What's number two?
Shandin Pete:You said it say it again. After that. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:That's three. I can't remember. Three are the dice a three? Yeah. Then most?
Unknown:Yeah, that's it. Well,
Aaron Brien:you said at least you can remember one.
Unknown:Yeah, you did. I
Aaron Brien:just felt like I heard sailors every day. You're right. You did it. Okay, when I first got through that first five years, three years, it was like, I swear to God, I because I didn't have the confines of like you guys learning your language. Oh, yeah. I bet I could have learned it. Oh, yeah. Because I didn't there was no pressure for me. Yeah. You know, like, do what you want. You're not from here.
Shandin Pete:And I had a free for all.
Aaron Brien:Yeah. And then I was around like Alec a lot and Johnny quite a bit and yeah, even Joe Kalia and oh yeah. Ooh, SHINee and oh, yeah, yeah, so when I heard it, I heard it at the sweat more. I didn't never talk conversationally
Shandin Pete:ever. No, no. No, I mean, yeah, I do.
Aaron Brien:I told you the only sailors I told you this before. The only sales conversation I ever heard in my life was in harvest foods. Philip Paul and Tim Finley talking to each other in the bread aisle. Wow. That was it. And it wasn't long. They just put you could tell it was casual, you know?
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah. Very rare to hear that. Very rare, at least even for me. That like the beginning conversation, they start talking. Say a few things. Haha.
Aaron Brien:They kind of see going someone says something funny. They laughed and they go into English.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, exactly. That's the pattern pattern.
Aaron Brien:The meet and greets and the politics stuff. The quick joke. Yeah, everyone loves right back doing.
Shandin Pete:Pretty much. Pretty much
Aaron Brien:honest to god. Dude, the most Salish I've ever heard come out of one person's mouth all the time is Aspen Decker. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like just constant. You know, just really putting it out
Shandin Pete:there. Really putting it out there? Yeah. I think that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. What do you eaten? Meatballs? Is Zetta harden? Is that a cuisine known in Hardin
Aaron Brien:cuisine known in Costco? Costco or every, every podcast?
Shandin Pete:Do you do? Yeah. With no with no shame?
Unknown:No, speaking of 39 this is you guys are getting prolific. Is this number 39 that I've read that right?
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah. 3939 at the 39th episode. I mean, some people are really on it. You know, they're, they're pumping out episodes every week. And I used to be really on that they could not give it every week, we got to put some outputs.
Aaron Brien:Remember when we had that first conversation about like, not pressuring ourselves to put out content? Yeah. I mean, just said, we'll do it when we want to do it.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, some some comes up.
Aaron Brien:I remember you said, Well, we only have whatever, like 200 subscribers or something. Yeah. And I said put them all in one room. That's a big deal. If we're talking to 200 people,
Shandin Pete:a lot of people, a lot of people. Yeah, if you like
Aaron Brien:said, Hey, we're gonna have Sean Dean and Aaron are gonna give a lecture tonight at the Mansfield Library and 200 people showed up, we'd be like, holy shit.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, that'd be strange. Yeah, it's like when somebody says, yeah, man ate butter, by a million pieces of cake or like, Well, have you ever seen a million of anything? No. Oh, yeah. You've never seen 1 million of anything.
Aaron Brien:The best is when you're growing up and you're a little wrestler and somebody gets into a fight. Then they're like, you gotta fight. Yeah, man. We'd like fought for like 10 minutes.
Unknown:Like 30 seconds.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. 30 seconds. tops.
Aaron Brien:So are we are we started?
Shandin Pete:Yeah. All right. Well, we're on. We're on.
Unknown:We've been on it. Keep down and keep choking us down.
Shandin Pete:Um, let's see how many how many have you eaten so far? Let's get a count. A meatball count.
Aaron Brien:But I was about seven or the bad boys in there.
Shandin Pete:So you've you've eaten seven was seven remaining.
Aaron Brien:No, no, it's all done.
Shandin Pete:So you ate seven meatballs and those are modest size. They're not
Unknown:this not like probably this big.
Shandin Pete:That's about the size of of a large Hawk Abell
Unknown:camera blurred that out. Just did. Yeah. The camera blurred that. Yes. Show that on this podcast? Yeah.
Shandin Pete:A large, inch, inch and a half hawkbill
Aaron Brien:do your best father Conley. Gosh, do you know who father Conley? No. Yeah, okay.
Shandin Pete:All right. Well, well ruin does that got us off of meatballs?
Aaron Brien:No, what? Who's the one from quarter lane? Yeah, that's okay. So yeah. I first moved to flathead. And we were gonna
Unknown:play name that priest right now. Is that what we're doing?
Aaron Brien:We're not. When I first moved to flathead, like way back 100 years ago. There was still quite a few of them. There was, I don't know, maybe about 200 sailors speakers, maybe a little more.
Shandin Pete:What do you think? No. You don't think so? 100. year you're talking 20 years
Aaron Brien:ago? Yeah. 20,001?
Shandin Pete:Yeah, maybe? Yeah.
Aaron Brien:The numbers stuck in my head, because in Kusum was just getting going. Yeah, they kind of had the numbers and I faintly remember hearing that number. Yeah, they could. That could have been a five year old number two, and you're saying it to me, but
Unknown:anyway. Oh, yeah. Didn't
Aaron Brien:Johnny So Johnny was still the man then. In fact, I would say he was even more of the man at flathead than now. You know. But every time there was a big to do in our in, in on on the Flathead, so mainly our Lee and yeah, there's always two dudes that showed up. And they were like, respected people. One of them was Francis Kaguya. He showed up. And then father Conley from Porter lane, man, dude, this guy. Read the Salish man. Yeah, they're late their language like he could just rip it.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. He had the style too. He had a big reservation hat. Remember his reservation?
Aaron Brien:Like Kane Think big? King. He dad's like you get there and get down. Get down. And then so what time I was working for the Catholic Church in in Michigan, and then put a black robes for the black robes and then Father, father drew really danced at Harley and then he he tells me Aaron, do you see me dancing? Didn't I just remind you of father Connolly? Oh, no. Does that bar bar Yes. You did not remind me Father godly
Shandin Pete:you got some work on your your outfit there.
Aaron Brien:I'm impressed that he learned their their language not not because it's hard to learn their language or whatever. It's because there's not a lot of speakers of it.
Unknown:Yeah.
Aaron Brien:That's yeah, like Where was he getting his content in his time? His reps you know? Yeah. As impressive. It is really impressive. It is so agreed. Yeah, what should we should we introduce our listeners to who's joining us today?
Shandin Pete:Suppose
Unknown:so I got to I'll So
Aaron Brien:Josh, I gotta admit some to you. Yeah. All right.
Shandin Pete:Confession time. Wait. The mood first.
Unknown:Gap priests, we got confession
Shandin Pete:in I got all right. We got to get
Aaron Brien:the mood set. I gotta tell you some. So I have my wife's brother. Yes, his name is Josh. My sister's son, his name is Josh. And then the nephew who was actually our godson it's been that's crazy because I'm not even Catholic but his name is Josh. Okay. So we came across the dilemma here when you came into around came into my life it was like that's the fourth Josh
Unknown:will still
Aaron Brien:the brother in law got Josh. Okay. That's Josh. The nephew got Joshua. The godson got JJ Josh Jr. Makes sense. And in native peoples all knowing wisdom the name we came up for you is white Josh. Yeah. Yeah. So it's
Unknown:funny. My my so my cousin's last name is white.
Shandin Pete:So Whoa, whoa, white coma, Josh.
Aaron Brien:So this episode is is is going to be titled The Saga of white Josh. All right. All right,
Unknown:I like it. The white Josh
Aaron Brien:comes to us from Harley Montana by way of Pennsylvania, right? Yeah. But by way of Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania
Unknown:Yeah, and welcome to the show. Ah,
Joshua Rosenau:Sam buffalo when I met him and I told him who I was he ever since called me Philly.
Shandin Pete:Philly. We're in Pennsylvania. Hey, Phillies that's that's the mouse right?
Aaron Brien:The mouse no that's the city in Philadelphia that's
Shandin Pete:the mouse that comes to comes to America that's American dream that's five all I know but they call them Philly. There are
Aaron Brien:no cats in America and
Shandin Pete:streets are paved with the cheese cheese.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, because there are which turned out not to be true at all. No. So wrong. They were wrong. They were Yeah. Whoever told him that Yeah. Anyway, Josh was from Scranton, or where Brenton
Unknown:from outside of Philadelphia place called Valley Forge. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. colonizer? Yeah. Oh, actually worse than that. So the area is actually the town. Right next to valley forges is Wayne, Pennsylvania named after General mad Anthony Wayne. Famous for committing Indian massacres. Oh, boy. This this high school I went to is kind of still the high school
Shandin Pete:will kind of still go wagon in that kind of Stoeger wagon
Unknown:kind of stove actually is a Iroquoian word. What for a group of people that were Iroquois that lived in that area, and were wiped out by Presbyterian. Yahoo's with guns in the 80s it in a religious like, historical pamphlet like a church Chronicle. So yeah, I mean, the genocidal maniacs man ruff.
Shandin Pete:Okay, let's go back. This could take up our whole this whole conversation. Okay. That was a lot. has a lot to consume, man. Kostova con kind of schoolgirl wagon. That's You said that's an Iroquois word. Which one? Conestoga or wagon? Calistoga. Okay.
Aaron Brien:I didn't know that. Interesting.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, quite the history in in those. Those parts. We chatted with a gentleman from the south east. And we kind of got our minds blown. Remember that? What was his
Aaron Brien:name? kind of stole your wagon.
Shandin Pete:Kind of Stoke away is the vampire. The vampire. Vampire. Why can I think was name off the top? My god?
Aaron Brien:That was a good podcast.
Shandin Pete:That was a good one. Underrated? I don't know why I can think it was named. In a way. Yeah. Um, yeah, we had a brief chat about some experiences and those parts. That was quite eye opening. It was. Yeah. Because of the the history. The history in that area. Went back way, way back in time. I think was in the Victorian or the Elizabethan age. I
Aaron Brien:can't remember. I can't remember. I'm gonna have
Shandin Pete:to. I'm Ryan Ryan Emanuel. Brian Emanuel.
Aaron Brien:We should have I'm sorry.
Shandin Pete:We're going to Episode 30. Yeah, mind blowing, you know. And so right now you're, you're dropping some knowledge on us about all these atrocities, etc. And, you know, that's
Aaron Brien:that's what, that's what we're about here.
Shandin Pete:We're about atrocity. Gets us the stars. That gets us the stars, you know?
Unknown:Yeah.
Shandin Pete:I don't know, man. I don't know what to say about that.
Unknown:But that's the same thing. I'm sorry. Yeah. You put my brain there. Yeah. And I know Aaron and Shawn Dean because we used to work at as Casey together is really what people probably wanted to know.
Shandin Pete:No Oh, they don't want to know that. They don't want to know that. They're not I
Aaron Brien:gotta, I gotta do a podcast. Well, you're gonna
Unknown:cleanse the cleanse, cleanse the mic, cleanse your
Shandin Pete:mic off. Yeah. Deep, quick
Aaron Brien:number we were watching. We actually were on a zoom or something wasn't someone trying to smudge. Like smudge the
Shandin Pete:Yeah, that was, yeah, that was the thing for a while.
Aaron Brien:It was like a real thing. Like, yeah, like, that's not I'm like, that's not how
Shandin Pete:it does work. It doesn't work like that. It's,
Aaron Brien:you need the smoke. Like, you know, there's a big push in like Indian country to be like your feelings. Yeah. It's like, well, that's how it that's my truth. don't work that way. Sometimes, you know. Anyway, I listened to
Shandin Pete:it's pretty. It's pretty good podcast, a guy from down in Australia. And he, he talks the same way that we talked about that whole thing even talks about this, these talking circles and I got this talk in circles and they pass like a stick or a talisman around and everybody gets a chance to say how they feel so well. Maybe some people don't deserve to be to talk about how they feel. They bliss as they blast blabber on for hours and hours, but how they feel? Nobody wants to hear that.
Unknown:I didn't know. He had a better way to say it. But anyway, yeah. wants to hear that.
Shandin Pete:We're getting off topic here. Okay, Pennsylvania.
Unknown:What is the topic? Is there a topic?
Aaron Brien:Yeah, there's never you're the topic. You're the
Shandin Pete:you are the top? Oh, that can't be right. It is. It's true. You've already dropped some knowledge on us about your your upbringing, which included a lot of Indian killing, apparently. You, of course smokes in the past, in the past, in the area in which you live. And that well, this is this is what this is. What's interesting about that is we've got plenty of Native perspective on many, many number of things. But we don't necessarily have the other voice I suppose you could say. So for example, we last episode, we talked about a singing group. There, I assume were non native, or maybe somewhere had some Native Heritage? I'm not sure. But they were good. You know, they sound really nice, you know, and they had the they had the the sound that you would hear from I guess, authentic singing group, I suppose you could say
Aaron Brien:when they were they weren't ran off? Rather mean that they know them off? Oh, yeah. They,
Unknown:they,
Aaron Brien:at the end of the day, it's like if you do it, right. People will accept it. If you're non native, and you come in the native country. Yeah. So like when calling mountain like, come out the gate? I mean, they sounded like they they knew they learned the right way. They didn't like and I don't know their history. So I don't know if they did learn from like videos or like hobbyist communities. But yeah, but even now No way. They did. I don't know any
Shandin Pete:good. Yeah, I think good even even in that way you can, you can get to a certain level. Yeah. But if your intent is right, then then you in a way you sort of transform to the next level, you start showing up.
Aaron Brien:So let's think of it this way. How many? How many white drum groups have you ever heard?
Shandin Pete:Myself? Yeah. I'm trying to think maybe, maybe a couple. Four? Yeah. I mean, yeah. Okay. For less at least.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, even three. So of the three drum groups. How many were singing correctly?
Shandin Pete:Oh, yeah. Just the one, the one we're talking about.
Aaron Brien:Okay, so how many Native Drum groups have you seen?
Shandin Pete:Oh, God, you can't even count.
Unknown:Yeah, a lot. Yeah, a lot.
Aaron Brien:How many of that 1000 We're seeing correctly.
Shandin Pete:Maybe about three quarters. Okay. So or maybe two thirds.
Aaron Brien:Just by our rudimentary mathematics. white folk are even doing that better than us.
Shandin Pete:vs. simple arithmetic.
Unknown:It just happened. It dropped Oh, God,
Aaron Brien:that happens. It happens.
Shandin Pete:I know it happens. And you know, you can't you can't fault them, you know, it's just this
Aaron Brien:for them
Shandin Pete:it's just the product is a product of something. Of. Yeah. And you got and it's, well, it's compounded by a couple of things. Number one, nobody has the energy to help to correct and or there's a resistance to accept being corrected. And that's important one right there. That's really important. And I think if someone was lied or no not want to make a sweeping statement about
Aaron Brien:someone about sweeping stain, we can make a sweeping
Shandin Pete:statement. Yeah, you know, it's worth anything. If you're if you if you're authentic, and you really want to do something, and you're trying hard, and you get corrected, you don't just run off. You don't get, you know, build up a wall and try to resist, try to think your read more, right or correct, because you've seen it on the YouTube or I don't know, whatever instance. I do. Yeah, Aaron might do that. But, but normal people. No, no, those those who try, you know, they'll accept the criticism and they'll try to change what they're doing. That's, but that's, that's with anybody in any any line of anything. That's gonna happen. So anyway, what are we doing? What are you talking about? What do you what do you want? Josh? What do you want? me here? So you called us? You know? Yeah, it's like when somebody What do you
Unknown:want? What do you want, man?
Aaron Brien:What do you want? You called? Actually, we called Josh.
Unknown:We called him Josh has
Aaron Brien:been like, fine. Just chillin watching his, his liberal documentaries.
Unknown:That's right, doc.
Aaron Brien:Yeah. So this summer, I had wet and kind of looked on on on a certain ceremonial life way that I won't mention what it is. Yes, cuz. Yeah. Yeah. But then I noticed there was a large participation of non Indian people there. Okay, which I'm not inherently against. Okay. But something clicked on me. Clicked, the light bulb went on, at this particular belief way. Yeah, struction of, of the lodge. There's a belief in that, too. So it's not just what happens there. It's what, during the construction, the belief is that you could as a family, you can say, I want you to come to my property to get these parts for, for the lodge and good fortune would happen to you. Right? Yeah. But then I noticed that there's other ways to to pledge like, my nephew could say, I'm going to go and help build the lodge today. Maybe something good will come to me. Right? Yeah. So it's, it's this belief, this ripple effect? Yeah. Well, then, when I got there, I noticed that everything was being done by these non Indian people. white folk, as they say, which at first, my instinct wasn't to be like, getting mad. In fact, it was like opposite. I was like, look at all these Indians got the slaves, you know? But then I realized I thought about those other beliefs, those beliefs that come with it, and I thought, wait a second, by then being here. For whatever reason, they're here. Yeah, in a way it it's it. It hinders the participation of the community. Not meaning that they can't participate. Deal it's just that I think something happens it slows it up. So then that that night on my way home from it I Tex, white Josh man. And then I think I called you right? Yeah. And so the reason being this is this is where you're gonna just take off with it is Josh has spent some time in Indian country now has has actually looked on on some ceremonies. He's done his best to learn the language. He is. He's never shied away from participating in and native stuff. But what I feel like is Josh has done a pretty decent thing. approach where he doesn't overbear he's not overbearing. He's like, he's not trying to talk like, like, he doesn't change his voice to be like, chicks, you know, stuff like that, like, Josh, he's been Josh. But after talking to Josh, he said, there was some kind of learning lessons in that. So what we thought our listeners would benefit from, because I doubt all 75 of our listeners are all Indians. 100 or 200 200?
Shandin Pete:I don't know. Exactly, yeah.
Aaron Brien:So we thought Man, they might maybe maybe they want to hear from from Josh. Yeah, might Josh. Yeah. That's it. That's my introduction. Okay. Good one.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah. I feel like you preface that. Well. Thank you. Yeah. Excellent. You Chandi
Aaron Brien:speeded splendid. Now you sound like you're from what is it kind of stole your wagon?
Shandin Pete:That kind of toga wagon. I heard they got a coffee shop built out of a kind of stupid wagon. Wagon. Hey, come on over. And why don't we kind of Google wagon?
Unknown:So Well, thanks for that gracious introduction. And, yeah, you know, part of it is being you know, a little bit of knowledge is very dangerous. That kind of perspective.
Aaron Brien:Coming out of the gate, stressful statement, sizzle strong statement, says, Oh, that's a crimper go.
Unknown:Get that. That's basically been my approach in like, keeping myself guarded from I guess, or I guess what I'm saying is maintaining a light footprint. When it comes to, like showing up at doings, or, or where maybe, maybe there's a line where my approach has to be especially respectful. And so I was gonna say before coming out. So I should also say that I got really motivated to work alongside Indian people and like, you know, against no culture more and be really, really passionate and interested about it during Standing Rock. Because a lot of the problems that I was dealing with in communities where I was working in living as a reporter for a newspaper, were really predictable problems that it seemed like, if we're honest at all, you know, native culture has solutions for and so I was just kind of exhausted by the predictability of a lot of problems and wanting to wanting to learn, right, how to how to get past them. Yeah. One book that I read was this book called wolf that I am by Fred Taggart. McTaggart, about a white guy who visits second Fox reservation and asked about stories. Um, it's a good book for anybody who's like, a non Indian person interested in culture and trying to figure out like, how to plug in and connect in a way that people can recognize and make sense of. But those things, those things are all kinds of training wheels stuff compared to actually being with people. Um, so yeah. Shoot, like, I'm not sure what more to add or what direction you want me to take this because I feel like there's so many. But
Aaron Brien:right. Well, I think the
Shandin Pete:one of the interesting phenomenons or one of the interesting things out we encounter, just as as a human species is when we interact with something that we don't quite understand, or something that we don't we're unfamiliar with. We get a level of anxiety or an uncomfortableness about that. And naturally, we want to, we want to, we want to ease that anxiety or that uncomfortableness in some way. And one way is to head out and just get away from it. Or the other way is to become federal learn more about it. But I think one of the interesting things about that that statement, learn more about it, is that there's there's more things that should come after that. Like, you don't go up to someone and say, hey, I want to, I want to learn more about you. Now, it doesn't, it doesn't, doesn't ring well. Even saying I want to learn more about your customs that doesn't ring well, either. Or I want to learn more about your songs. Anything that you put after that it's not gonna ring. Well, it seems to be. And I had a discussion about this today, as a matter of fact, about really, what what is the what is the purpose of developing social connection with someone or, or a group of people? And if if that idea of making that connection is for some motive, that's, I guess, in certain cases, employment related or research related, like some some task from some place that pays you that that doesn't ring well, to anybody, any cultural group? I don't know. I, it just seems that way. I don't know if that's completely true, because some people might
Unknown:embrace it. Okay. So I guess, like responding to what you're saying, like intent really matters. Yeah. And I think there's lots of different forms of approaching that. But you're right. Like some of the some of the ones to be wary of are, if you're trying to tick a box, you know, you need a token Indian to do something, because you had to tick the box. Oh, man, that's. So this working at the college, we run into that all the time, all the time. Right. It's a weekly event. Right. The other one, I would say on the non Indian side more, is like doing it because it's cool doing it because it's exotic to you doing it. Doing it because it's like, it's not just different, but it's like mysterious or why that is.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. What is that? What is the motivation? Like if someone wants to be native, man, go, go live in the dumps, man. Live in the dumps for a while and, you know, take on some, some people who are addicted and care for them for a number of you, then then you can call yourself native. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's the reality. Yeah. I mean, that's not all of it. But you know,
Aaron Brien:I mean, it's a big part of it, though. Like, the struggling in when Josh, when I lived in our lane, Josh would come over and we sweat. And we had a lot of these basically, like, podcast conversations, man. Right. Some pretty cool conversations. But, um, one of the things that I I think, too, though, I know intent is a big part of it. Josh, maybe you can shed some light on this as like, but do you think there's just some things doesn't matter how, what your intent is, and how righteous it is? That you just shouldn't be a part of I think that's, that's the key. There's a case of that.
Unknown:I think, yeah, that's something that, um, you can develop a sixth sense for. And, and what I mean by that is not this is not what I'm saying is not a superstitious or religious sensibility at all. What I'm saying is when you
Shandin Pete:don't, you don't employ your third eye. See? Yeah,
Unknown:I'm not talking about that. Don't rub the crystal to figure out where you don't belong. Well, I mean, if you have to, it's one of those things. Like if you have to rub a crystal maybe you're onto something, and it's that you should be there, right.
Aaron Brien:But it's like, can you
Unknown:if Imagine, imagine an entire group of people turning and asking you what the hell you're Doing their you can't take on the room. Yeah. You shouldn't be there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, any one of them is the room. That's. So these these real sensitive times and places, they're about connection and they're about people coming together. Yeah. And one of the insights that I had as a visitor and as a non Indian person is that there are times when I can fit into that. And there are times when I'm interrupting it. And as somebody who respects Indian culture a lot and realizes how rare some of these gatherings are, and how important they are in terms of like the year and getting stuff done for family groups and you know, doing it the right way doing it in a good way. You don't want to do it in a bad way. You don't want to be the thing that stinks. And I've synced up some stuff
Shandin Pete:would you say watch think Ville that time
Aaron Brien:Something smells good instinct Ville.
Unknown:So you stink up some stuff. Stank? Yeah. Okay.
Shandin Pete:This reminds me of something. And I think I talked about it on a previous episode. I can't remember. But that was in a part of a situation where that kind of happened. Someone was outed. You know, like, why are you here? And it was a bit uncomfortable for everybody. But yet the guy who's, I mean, I guess he had every right to say that. And I don't think he was necessarily trying to be rude. But he just his demeanor was like that. And he just had to call it out, I guess the way you seen it. And the response was, was really I had to really think about it for a second because it kind of I never heard that kind of response. So this person was non native and said, Well, you know, I'm here just to support support indigenous people, because my people signed the treaty. So I'm trying to uphold my end of it. Oh, wow. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah, that was the Okay. That's kind of cool. You know, because we always think of treaty as this Indian thing. But there's a whole nother party that sign that. And yeah, they had they had they have that obligation as well to do those things in that treaty. And I thought that was kind of, right,
Aaron Brien:like, Indian people. Just say no to treaties. We do think of treaties as almost one way.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if I think if other non natives, you know, took that to a treaty signing to mean that, yeah, so there's two parties here, we have a certain obligation because our forefathers signed that treaty as well, just like your forefathers signed it. And so we should also uphold that word that they made that long ago. So that's kind of as kind of an admiral way to put it, I thought that that person just said, Well, I sent my focus on this treaty years ago. And I'm just trying to uphold my end of it. Pretty cool at that.
Unknown:Yeah. And in my book, he he, you know, he had the explanation ready for the room. Right? Yeah, he might have gone ahead and acquiesced and said he or she,
Shandin Pete:he or she, they go Yeah, I'm sorry. I interrupted you.
Unknown:That's all right. I think I made my point, you know? Yeah.
Aaron Brien:I like that. I like that. Have the response ready? Like if you're not ready to take on the room like I never even thought of that. See? This is this is
Unknown:this is why you're here why Josh?
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah. God dang it you know the next we ought to have a Craig Cameron on
Aaron Brien:my buddy Craig
Shandin Pete:Yeah, we should have him on now. No. Funny one anyway, you know. So yeah. So that's what it reminds me of that instance. I think you're right. I think all um, all people if there have the right intention, and I think they can contribute to any number of things. I think I think today even today, we all know that one non Indian person that helps out in a certain way, has knowledge of things in a certain way and they don't use it and In a manner to to lift themselves up above the cause of tribal hood or whatever you might call it, this want to be a part of part of the helping, like Aaron said earlier part of I'm don't want to do this because I want to, you know, they understand they understand it, I want to do this because I want to get some, some good luck for myself and my family. They're not doing it to write a book, and I'm doing it to, to show off or to be known to have some street cred when they go down to the IGA, you know, drop a name of a council person, and I don't know, there's all kinds of odd and weird reasons people will do those kinds of things in the wrong way.
Unknown:So and let's describe that more, because you were talking also about like, the hardship of being Indian and like, you know, if you want to be Indian, you know, often those people who are like that, man, they've put in some time, they've, they've come and come back, and they're, they're making themselves known and available to more than just one person, or just, we know, like a favorite person. Um, and I think that they're aware of, okay, this is like, related to what you guys were saying, but like, part of the parts of being Indian that aren't cool are really not cool. You really don't want to have to experience the uncool illness, ah, in order to, like, gain some credibility about who you are, right, like, I do not want to have to be forced to, you know, be almost homeless, live on commodities, like you're saying, have multiple generations of folks who are addicted to a drug or you know, what I'm saying, like, all these limitations are real things. They're a part of that story. Right, trying to give short shrift to that as though like you could join in during the day, that's a big mistake, you know, you don't want that pain, you know, you have no idea how uncool that is. That is not cool.
Shandin Pete:Right? And so
Unknown:that's another big part of the respect is like, realizing there's some serious costs that have come. And they're borne by these folks. And that's if that's not you, you're just lucky, you're just lucky. Right?
Shandin Pete:Yeah, and I wouldn't want to totally miss characterize the, the life of a native person, that's part of it, you know, some of those things, but in other in other ways, there's, there are experiences that are, are difficult, but they don't involve the negative things. It's just the hardship of, of a life that you that you you engage in ceremonially, ceremonially. I mean, the I don't know a whole lot about some of the things that happened down in Aaron's territory, but there's a lot there's a, there's a, there's a sacrifice, you have to make just, you know, do it. For example, someone running for a princess down there, you know, for their celebration. They do that they're their whole family's taking on this large and that edit wouldn't really say a burden in a way but it's this thing you have to do to complete that process. And it's difficult. Monetarily difficult, timewise logistically, all those things. So aside from the dysfunction, you know, the life of a native person is also hard in another way, but it's in a fulfilling and meaningful way. Which, which a lot of people don't, it's hard for them to do that. It's just they don't get that they see the flashy side of the end of it, they see the end of it where you where you're doing something in the end, you see you see that product of all that work, but you don't see the work and and I've seen a number of times where people, young Native people will will buy into that they don't see the work that goes into something. They just see the end and they say, I want to do that. I want to be that thing. And I don't see the work that goes into it. And it turns them, it turns them into something that they shouldn't be. They don't know how to do the work. So yeah, I
Aaron Brien:mean, realistic. It's not realistic. It's not a realistic view of the community, you know, or that way that tribe does things. Because I actually think I went through some of that. And flathead. Yeah. When I first moved there, right away, man, like I made friends with the right person, it seemed like but that wasn't my intent. We just became buddies and shut down was right in there with these old folks and do cool stuff and been witnessing cool things. Meanwhile, it took me a few years, but then I realized, like, man from the outside looking in, it probably looks kind of messed up, like, like, here's these Indian kids from there that they may not have the resources to, or the know how to jump in something like that. They're just yeah, for an input. Yeah, here's me taking up space. Thinking it's what I'm supposed to be doing. Oh, I live here. I should be participating. They do. This is the respectful thing to do. Not realizing you're cheating somebody, man. Yeah. And I knew I was very, and I should have, I should have had enough wherewithal to say like, Hey, there's little kids here. Maybe you guys asked one of them kids. I mean, there were some instances where like, nobody was there. I was in I was just with this guy. And they're like, yeah, yeah. That mean, that was just real informal and casual, but you know certain things. Yeah. Yeah.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, I think it happens, but I think it happens with you know, it can happen with non non Indians and Indians as well. That idea of taking up space where you don't realize that you, you should just chill Alright, just a quick break here to thank some of our sponsors, especially wild gallery, wy L de.ga LLERY, wild gallery, thank you for supporting the show. And thank you to past sponsor, Louise Erdrich. Thank you both for your continued contributions and your past contributions to keep the show on the air. Thank you.
Aaron Brien:I think it comes from an older belief of wanting to when guests come you share with them stuff, right? Yeah. But then I think we have to take that same belief and learn to share it with our own people. Don't assume everybody in your community knows. Yeah, this stuff or has are privy to it. I think crows a good example of, of people who know things, but they're not privy to them. Like if you were to go and talk to a lot of cool people they would know about things they would know about a ceremony what it's for why they do it when they do it. But they may have never even seen it before never even been invited to one. Right. It's kind of a unique situation. But we know everyone knows awake. I got to go.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, you
Aaron Brien:I didn't mean to give you such a verbal lashing.
Unknown:Oh, that's all right. I know. It wasn't just this white. Josh, you were talking about? The Universal White Josh out there.
Aaron Brien:Everyone knows why Josh. Actually, I don't think everyone knows why Josh I think I know everyone knows a disruptive white guy. But I don't think there's there's a lot of white guys like you Josh who maybe feel like they were that at the beginning but quickly realized, like, hey, my presence alone can be what you say you texted me and said Your are white people's presence alone can be disruptive.
Unknown:I think I think that's true. Yeah. Okay. So but that has to do with okay, that's not this is not a racial observation. This has to do when when you realize as a non Indian person, that a doings is about those people making connections in a deep, deep way. If you're not totally sincere and ready in your heart to make those kinds of connections at the level and investment that they are, or that the other people around you are let's not let's not make it us them. Let's Let's just say we're in this thing, right? If you feel that as you're in it, it's taking you places that you're not prepared to go. That's one that's one level. But then the next level is, am I affecting other people getting there? And that's not cool. That's rude.
Shandin Pete:Right? Greed is cutting in front cutting in front of the line. Yeah. But you're not really aware that there's a particular order of things. I went to Home Depot the other day. Yep. And
Unknown:we're looking for some spray paint.
Shandin Pete:So we're walking by the paint counter, you know, there's all these people lined up. And we're not Well, I went out there to get canned paint, you know. And there's a number of people kind of milling about, they're not really standing in a line, you know, they're just kind of massed around a counter. And a guy is that mixes the paint, you know, he puts it in there and puts in a little shake or whatever. He finished his one job and he, he comes on at counter and he says, who's next? Be honest. Be honest. Come on, please. Like standing around? Because? I mean, I don't know. I just kind of dropped into the situation. But apparently, he must have thought something was up some line cutters. I don't know.
Unknown:I don't know who. Yeah, she users.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, I know. There's a lot of those folks, you know, they just cut right in. I've done it. I've done it in my youth. I've done it. You've done it. Like yeah, we'll do
Unknown:it. Okay, so this is another part of it is you got to be willing to make mistakes.
Shandin Pete:Be willing to take risks to learn? Yeah. Line cutters. Take risks. Yeah, social risks got to take a risk. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not advocating for that. In this instance. I'm just saying if you want to paint if you want to kind of paint sooner than your neighbor, you might take a little risk and edge in there. No, no, I'm just kidding.
Unknown:Yeah.
Shandin Pete:I don't know. I don't I can see it. I can see some of the hardships and some of the challenges with our non-native call. We call them allies. We call them allies. Yeah. Ally. Let's call them Aaron. I said this is gonna get you because I said that went to the news. And now we call Miko. Agents, double agent.
Aaron Brien:Oh, dude, what's wrong, be wasteful? I know. It's cool. One time I went to a tribal consultation, and this guy said, after the meeting, or during the meeting, towards the end, he kind of got frustrated. And he was he said, Well, we just don't know what we're supposed to do. We don't he was like, frustrated. He was like, We don't know. All the protocols. We just don't know. It's hard. And he was like, you could tell he was like really frustrating. Yeah. Frustrated. And then there was these other tribal people that were kind of like, well, you know, we appreciate your good heart and all that shit. And I just said, it's not the job of it's not the job of a tipo to teach you what your mom should have taught you.
Unknown:Right?
Aaron Brien:Yeah, just be cool, man. Just cool. Right? That's all it comes down to men there if you're cool tribal people will tell you where not to be where to be all they want to be respectful all that will fuck we're not aliens, man. Yeah. Like, it's like, take me to your leader. Like come on, dude. Just be cool. Just what I think why people fail to remember is that we deal with white people every day. So we know how to talk to white folk. Okay, so just be cool. We're gonna make it work, man. Oh, fine. I'll tell you what you need to know when you need to know and just be just sit there and be cool. Yeah, just like I don't go to other communities. And like I used to work with like a lot of Muslims and stuff when I was at the University. And I never pretend to know anything or anything. I just I had enough sense to know where there was like cultural boundaries and stuff. So I'd be like, Oh, he could that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. No, no. They told me because I was being cool man. And then all I did was login every time they said All, I logged in, and pretty soon I was able to navigate through their stuff. It was just,
Shandin Pete:yeah, yeah. And that works.
Unknown:So going deeper into the intent issue, and like realizing what's going on now. I think that part of the difficulty is men, on top of white people maybe feeling frustrated about protocols or whatever, um, I think spiritually white culture is in a very weird place where a lot of the rituals that worked in the past three to 500 years, let's say, in European Christianity, or religious life, they're kind of wearing off. And I remember speaking about this briefly with Aaron when he called me before but you know, it kind of speaks volumes when the Aspen Institute at their gathering of billionaires in Colorado, have a shaman on the agenda. something weird going on. So culturally speaking, there's some like, there's some sort of turn going on, that has to do, I think, also with the environmental crisis, where white people are sort of looking in the direction of Indian people in a very weird way, in a very, in a way that might might be disruptive, and have like, a pure intent. And, or also may, you know, bring about some common ground, depending on how you're able to talk about it. But it's a it's an odd thing.
Shandin Pete:Yeah, this is the thing that this is the thing that I was having another conversation about. And I didn't, I didn't really dawn on me. So my, my, my, my world is, you know, far different from some of my colleagues I work with here at this university. And so my life is filled with all of these things that they don't really let them in on it, because it doesn't come up in conversation. But we're talking about singing. Because one of my my colleagues, one of my friends is he joined a show choir that just had an interest and just never seen before. And he said, you know, the, the typical Anglo, we don't sing anymore. Singing is not part of a lot of things that we do. And so well, yeah, I guess so in this What about church? And he says, well, it's it's usually they have a choir, you know, and maybe if you're invited, you can sing but it's it's mainly performative. It's not really for some sort of purpose. So that's, he said, so in our, this is the way he was seeing it. So so in our cultural pursuits, there's not a lot of singing that is involved in anything. And that's almost a complete opposite of, kind of the life of a lot of native people singing is a very, very important part of a lot of things, some of its performative powers, you know, some would argue it's pretty performative. But some of the songs are, you know, come from certain places that are not the reason is not for performance, per se, like, non native, you know, you go into a great hall and you stand in whatever, whatever the American Idol. Yeah, it's not, it's not for that. Something else. So, yeah, I thought that was kind of neat, neat insight on looking into a world that's not of my own. Okay, as I see that, I see this void of singing sure people enjoy hearing songs. But there's, and maybe I'm wrong, maybe there's not a spiritual or religious connection to singing anymore. I might be completely wrong. But what what are your thoughts on that? Well,
Aaron Brien:I mean, you've used right, you come
Unknown:from Scranton, there might have been a time yeah, there used to be. And I also think that that that has a particular you know, cultural power and force to it, coming together and singing songs. And actually, there's some there's some non Indian like cultures in America that were based on that. That's what that's what the shaker religion is based on. It's a translation of Indian longhouse. Singing culture, Nick got brought into a Christian faith community and they, those those shapes, shape tone, I forget what? It's a very distinctive kind of singing.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, like shape tone or shape notes, shape notes. Note singing is like, kind of a form of like Baptists. Yeah, kind of real conservative form of like Baptist missionaries. And then they'd make like weird motions
Unknown:when they sing. Oh,
Aaron Brien:shape note singing. It's real, like kind of got a weird tone to it.
Unknown:It's yeah, it's kind of eerie and powerful. Yeah. Iran
Aaron Brien:eerie it is pretty cool. Actually, if you listen to shape noticing it?
Unknown:Absolutely. Could I never know. Anyway, okay, yeah, this is the kind of stuff where it's like, Okay, the last 100 years, especially, maybe even before then, but let's take the last 100 years. The ways that European societies and colonial societies that are in power have become more and more invested in technology, and in individual effort. I mean, these things are tearing down whatever the, the purpose of acquire is, right? It's been totally eclipsed by these other pursuits. And those pursuits are really pretty mechanistic and cold. And, and you know, that their share are powerful right now. And they share have made an incredible historic difference. But, gosh, like, are they? Are they helpful to the human scene and the human community getting together and recognizing some basic common stuff? That is kind of magic? I think we lose that, right? Like, the magic that we're engaged in right now is this magic of like zoom and, and being 1000s of miles apart from one another, and having a conversation, which is cool. It's something it's not nothing, right? It's new, it sort of divides the world into two groups, the people who can do this and afford this and people who can't. And that is a power but like, at the expense of actually being together, breathing the same air in and out carrying attune. You know that, that's a lot older, powerful thing. That's a lot more, I don't know, people talk about holistic or integrated or whatever. But strictly the point being that it invites a lot of people, a lot of people can join in way, way more than then can join this. Right. So I think you're right. And this is part of the this is part of like the poverty of the Spirit that white people go through when they show up on Indian reservations asking like, hey, how do you do? So? It's a it's a weird.
Aaron Brien:That's a catchy phrase, man.
Unknown:It's, it's weird. It's weird. It's stupid, you know, you feel sort of illiterate. And also, I don't know, what is the word? It's not it's not a moral bankruptcy. It's just like, A, it's just like, I didn't get this. Like we were saying before, like, it's not your problem. It's not your problem. What my mom didn't teach me. Okay, but if my mom can teach it to me, where do I go? I get the you don't want to teach me but I don't have a whole lot of options here. What am I going to do go? Like, pretend that I'm fasting and pretend that I'm having a vision quest and hope that that happens? I'm not so sure. So it's very easy, I think for because white people have been kind of detached from this stuff to get very. You can get you can you can. You can fool yourself, you can be very deluded. Mm hmm. Well,
Shandin Pete:I think I, you know, I can't disagree with you on all that. And I think
Aaron Brien:I wouldn't even know, to be honest, because I don't. Yeah, we don't know that. Honestly. I don't know that perspective. Yeah. So like, when it comes to native things, right. Obviously, we're in a little more privileged position where we got front row seats. So it's a good reminder though. do like to hear that we don't have that like when you're talking about what do you say? Culturally bankrupt? Isn't that what you texted me? I think you said culturally bankrupt,
Unknown:are serious real poverty. Spiritual. Yes. Spiritual. There's a spiritual poverty. Yeah,
Aaron Brien:we sit in pretty privileged position that not only do we have a belief system, we have options within the belief system even. And then for those options, we have fail safes. And we're very fortunate. We're very fortunate to have that and to have it come from the environment in which we live in. Yeah, this that this belief system system was not born somewhere else.
Unknown:Oh, right. Yeah. That it's
Aaron Brien:from here. So. So you have you not only do you have the fail safes and the safety nets, and ave the web, the tools to spiritually succeed, you actually have physical landmarks reminding you of those things. That's powerful, man. That is, that's powerful. And I think sometimes we take for granted that we have that. And we we do our best to seek it elsewhere. Even unknowingly.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. What is that? I don't know, man is weird. You're right. No, but this so this is what I was thinking when Josh was saying this was, it sounds very much like some indigenous people, some Native people, that they're there at the same place that some well intending non natives are at because they never had opportunity. And, you know, they weren't, they weren't taught by their mom or dad certain things, and they're excluded in a certain manner because of Quick, go ahead, Josh. I see your status. Okay.
Unknown:So, yeah, a related thing that goes on is the I think this is unhelpful, um, you know, that the discussion around around intergenerational trauma, sometimes is also it tiptoes next to the idea that, that culture and genetics should somehow go hand in hand. I think what that is, what do you mean? Like, like, if if I have Indian blood in me, then I know.
Shandin Pete:So right, right, right. Right. Right. Good. You're a good tracker. You can track.
Unknown:Yeah, track
Shandin Pete:deer, like no one related to business? Yeah. I,
Unknown:I don't I'm not saying there's nothing to that. I'm just saying that. I'm the I think the more reasonable approach is that cultural transmission is it involves your whole life. Right. Right. Right. It's not just one part of you. It's not just your blood is not just where you're at. Yeah. So. So you got to take on the whole thing. And yeah, I just wanted to say that in relation to what what goes on there. Because yeah, people get cast, you know, in a certain, a certain role. Yeah, yeah. He's from here. He doesn't know anything, or Yeah, he knows a lot. But he's white. Yeah,
Shandin Pete:that's a strange thing goes on. That is a strange thing. And then there's also people who they're from there. They they were raised in this way, but they abandon it for something else. Yeah. There's that too, which is a strange phenomenon. In itself,
Aaron Brien:I think in that case, do you run into where Indian women who are raised traditionally to believe in participate, then their spouse doesn't
Unknown:do that? Oh, yeah. They,
Aaron Brien:they take on the beliefs of their spouse. And they hold and then maybe like, I've witnessed this where like, the husband died, and then the wife was old lady reverts back to everything she used to do. So then people like in their 50s and 60s will say, why is that lady? Like, she doesn't know anything? And it's like, well, actually, she does. She basically like press pause, you know, and I actually think this is my theory that was more common at flathead than any other reservation. I've been to
Unknown:ruler. Yeah, tell me
Aaron Brien:why. It seemed well, it just seemed like starvation. In the in the 20s and 30s. There was like a real big influx of like, I don't know what you would call that. Not just like, but like intermarriage, like from other Oh, yeah. White people. Yeah, other tribes too. And yeah, that's true. Yeah. So that in in the 50s when all them people were older in 60s, they were coming back and then people were like, these are just old Catholics, you know, or whatever. It seemed like he looked at if you look at some of that it's there. Like, it's real common that intermarriage is it was so much intermarriage at flathead just by numbers alone that you would have to think that right? Yeah. Then what people don't realize is the little shell Indians and some Cree people like kind of flooded the southern half of the rest there. And then you had people like from the Blackfeet coming and living there. But the best example that I know of, is oceanic can mill right? Who someone who was raised Silas spoke the language. Very traditional person. Yeah. Then married a Cooney. And yeah, essentially became Cooney. Right. And then after her husband had passed away, she seemed to revert back to a lot of the sailor stuff and that community been more active in that community. Am I right, or am I wrong?
Shandin Pete:I think that's a good example I have that. I think he made
Aaron Brien:was that a killer? observation was man, human. Specialist.
Shandin Pete:I was. Yeah, I couldn't stop listening. I wanted you to go further. You had me? You had me. Keep going, man. No, no, no, you're right. No, you're right. You're right. That that's that's another phenomenon that happens. And I think, let's see. Does it happen in the reverse, though?
Unknown:I don't know. There's a lot of people,
Aaron Brien:I think Location, location, location. Yeah.
Unknown:Yeah. All right.
Aaron Brien:Where's this apathy that
Shandin Pete:Yeah, where's that? Yeah. You see a lot of old, older Indian men with white women.
Aaron Brien:Hey, what about this one? Okay. This one? Yeah. Do you feel like sometimes Indian people will hook up or are with a white person? And basically step up their Indian game because they're with a white person? Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, the fact that they're with the white person makes them like, Be extra Indian, and then like,
Shandin Pete:kind of compensate for so they perceive as a you think that's a deficit? Man, I don't know.
Unknown:What's going on with you, Josh? Oh, I just. So one time, I was hanging out with book Marjo. And he was making like, handicrafts that he would sell at power. And he just turned to me and he had this like, wooden arrow or no, it was a wooden feather. And he was like, What do you think there? Josh? Just look Indian enough to you. Indian any money? Yeah,
Aaron Brien:that's a cool.
Unknown:And the fact that I was being asked this, and the fact that he said it that way. Just, I don't know, man. Like, that whole thing, like turning up the Indian like, what do you what does that even mean? Like? There again? It's like, are we are? Is this all just cartoons is culture just cartoons?
Aaron Brien:Only a white guy would ask? Are we really a cartoon? Or we do a weave in here? I don't know. Man. I just I think it's important, though, for because I would like to think that there's non Indian people listening to our podcasts who I would like to think are doing some level of research in Indian communities. Right? So sure, yeah. Probably like, listen, because that's kind of the keywords that we use, right? Even though I think that we don't talk necessarily about research, we just talk about things that it's like our form of research. We're not sitting here going over like methods and stuff. But yeah, it is influenced by that. But um, so Josh, I want you to tell us what you think. What's your opinion? What what is it mean? When somebody says indigenous research? Oh,
Unknown:Christ, why are you asking me this? This is all I'm
Aaron Brien:curious dude. Because the truth is, is your your learned white folk? Right? Oh, you have some strong connection to Indian country. So you probably have a better understanding of most white researchers. So what I want the reason I'm asking you is because I want you to tell me because I I'm assuming you're not going to get it. Right completely. Like it's going to be some it's going to be good, but it's gonna there's going to be some things with me and Shawn Dean can probably critique but the fact is, I want to listen to Good to hear that someone that I respect. And I respect the research they've done. That they're working at it and if they don't get it 100% There's no way in God's green earth that the others can get it. I just don't I people need to hear that. They need a sounding board. They need a barometer. Yeah.
Unknown:Oh, okay. Well, it's realistic for the barometer
Aaron Brien:to be Indian people if you're not Indian. Yeah, that's important. Really important. Important. So that's why I want you to say what you think indigenous researches set the bar, I will pressure like, say you are trying to be funny or anything. I just really curious.
Shandin Pete:Well, we might be funny. Yeah. Yeah.
Unknown:Are you talking about white people studying Indians for a reason? Are you talking about people adopting an indigenous method?
Aaron Brien:Everything? Because even that question, even what you just asked me back 90% of people don't even know what the hell you're talking about.
Unknown:Oh, right. Okay, so that's exactly
Aaron Brien:what I want you to like, oh, hang
Unknown:on. Okay. So, um, let me let me just clarify audience here. This is for that my answer is, is for non Indian people who are interested in this kind of stuff. All right. What will you probably understand from movies and books and things you've looked at? Some things in cultures are pretty different from ours? Or from the one that you have in your head currently? And we all have one in our head. Right. Good. So in order to understand that difference, like, huh, How different could it be? And, yeah, it's, it's so different. That things like ideas about who you are, where you come from, what you call, the place you live, might change. After you've looked at it long enough. Once you realize that the place that you live in, it wasn't always Wayne, Pennsylvania. In my case, there wasn't always my high school wasn't always kind of soda High School, and it wasn't always here. And it wasn't, it was named after a particular thing. Once you realize all those stories going back, then, to be honest, intellectually, you'd have to then take into account other people's stories, and see how long they were around, and see how long they called something, what they called it. And to realize that the entire idea of America is a flash in the pan compared to most indigenous understandings is the beginning of an appreciation for how rich that area is. That's the beginning. That's the starting point. I can't tell you how many people are walking around who don't even have the starting point. The number of people who need to who who have to gain the appreciation in order to just begin is huge. Now the number of people who carry on after they've made that appreciation after they've understood a little bit, they realize that oh man, there's there's a whole world here are there's a whole multiple worlds because tribes thought of the world differently. And the each world is as old as another maybe are as rich as another because the places are as rich as as other places. This is when we're getting into like really, very deep territory. And those understandings were practical, they were based on people facing real problems and generating real solutions as a result. That to me is what indigenous research is. It's when when people who are not colonial people solve problems, and then they hold on to it. colonials problem solving tends to look very different and tends to be narrower and it tends to involve a possibility for violence that I think that that is. There's more caution. And there's there's more of a sense of living with our alongside of problems as you develop solutions within indigenous research and within indigenous cultures. That a lot of Western and colonial Understanding is just doesn't, you know, what do you mean? I'm gonna live with an animal and figure out No, it's a mouse is a pest I don't, I don't want to live with it. I don't want to live with a flood, I don't want to live with, you know, I need, I need solutions I need, I need very practical things to happen. Now. As a result, my time span shrinks, and I become very kind of short sighted or maybe, maybe that's not the right word. But I'm very, if I'm in my colonial mindset, I'm very interested in speed, how fast I can get something done. The indigenous research method tends to involve experiments with patients. And with long periods of observation and looking and then and then in based on those, that information acting, and that has the stuff that works, when it comes to that is very, very strong, and it gets passed down. Not published in a book and commodified taught to people and in schools, as though they can recite it or memorize it or something like that. Instead, it gets passed down from family members, cousins, people in your community. So that's a really long answer. That's good. That's a soundbite. Yeah, right. But let's put that on a bumper sticker. Yeah.
Aaron Brien:So it made me think of a lot of things you know, like. But that comes from, in a weird way, you you've been in a fairly privileged position, because not only have you got to be around any level of like, ceremonial life, but you also got to hang around with indigenous researchers, which I don't think even even that though those kind of like shaman seeking kind of white folk get to do so like, there was a lot of times you hung out with us at the at FKC. Right, Shawn Dean and I and, and you you to hear indigenous people sort out research problems, man, I don't think 99% of non Indian researchers never get to hear that. And especially those working with tribal people. They don't. They don't, don't get that. So like, How many times have you sent me an article or you said, Hey, take a look at this or like, hey, what do you think of this idea? And it's like, how many people have that?
Unknown:Yeah, that's so weird. That's, that's, that's what I'm saying is like, so there's the beginning of the appreciation. And then there's the work that's done past that. The work that's done past that really requires a lot of imagination and creativity and work. It's real work. Um, I remember that what you were saying, like, how many times did I talk with you guys about something that I came across or whatever. I remember once there was a, an article, in an NPR had a story about some researchers who were observing puffins. And they found that puffins were dying in this region of Maine, because the latitude that they were at was being overcome by fish that were too big for their young to eat. And this was related to a point that Shawn Dean had made where it's like, when when you observe things that aren't human, react to their environment. They're doing research, and you observe them struggling, or you observe them in the midst of a problem that was totally objective that had everything to do with how they're going to adapt and respond and live. That's worthwhile. And so the point was that these guys were basically using the puffins as fish measurement tools, but they didn't know it. They didn't know enough to like, give credit to the Puffin for what it was doing.
Aaron Brien:I think you'd talk to me about this.
Unknown:AI was was pretty interesting. But the point was that like, sometimes stuff speaks to you in a way that let's be honest, a lot of Western folks or a lot of colonial folks don't have a common reference for me, they do. It's just sits back there, you know, it's it's kind of certainly not put to use every day, but it's it's not in the foreground.
Shandin Pete:Let me let me tell you what I heard. And tell me if um, so science science in in general is just a basic human to human tradition, you know, it's not not nothing mysterious, there's no crystal rubbing. You know, maybe there isn't certain sense. But that's it. So the you said you said the word practical. And you made it here. Yeah. You made a comparison of what one group thought was practical, what versus what another group that is what's practical. And I think that's where there's there's there stands the one of the biggest differences, I think, across different cultural groups, across different communities across different townships is really what's practical for that time period. And you mentioned like flooding, you know, well, we need to come up with a solution for flooding, to mitigate damage to infrastructure, that becomes a practical endeavor. Whereas if you place that same situation on an indigenous community 200 years ago, you had the idea of practicals going to be far different. But I think Indian people today face some of the same challenges that our non native counterparts face because of the world we live in this practical, like, what's what's practical for our communities right now? That's why you see a lot of research and, of course, in addiction and language revitalization, you don't see a whole lot of research in engineering, because it's, that's not really the I don't know, it's not really a need, you don't see a lot of indigenous research in, in, you know, manned missions to space or astrophysics or something like that. Because it's not, that's not practical, it doesn't, it's not fulfilling a certain need. So yeah, practical practicality in that way is, I think, goes across many different groups, depending on what it is, of course, the angle at which to define how and what to, to the solution that will be practical might be different. But I think time was another one that you mentioned, time is also an actor. And I think we've adopted some of the traditions of time these days, in a certain sense, just because of the way we, we think that we produce knowledge that fulfills that practical piece. I mean, most Indian people go to college, most Indian people finish high school, and they go off and are told to get an advanced degree and to get a job. And so we're living and in that time, we're living in that same time space as well. We're, we're, we feel those pressures of time, just like you do, I would think, in a way. Sure. But one thing you said that was pretty important is some of these things, especially indigenous in an indigenous way, or a native way, they're not reproducible. And that's really, I think that's an important one. He said, they're not reproducible, in all situations. Yeah. And I think science has come to understand that I mean, that's one of the goals is they want to have reproducible things, you know, this should apply in other situations. That's what makes it really good science is if I come up with a solution here, and it works on another continent. That's really good science, because it can be reproduced elsewhere. You know, we can replicate that under certain circumstances. But I think understanding that, that idea that sometimes we're not going to find that in indigenous research, it's not going to reproduce across communities. Well, there's a science
Unknown:in appreciating uniqueness, which Western science doesn't have a lot of words for, doesn't really operate that way. Right? Like, there are aspects of me and about you and about identity that are unique. There are aspects of place that are unique, or being able to appreciate those unique things doesn't lead us to generate universals or repeatable results. Right. So it's a different that's a different kind of knowing, but it's there.
Aaron Brien:Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
Shandin Pete:I agree, man. Yeah, but you know, it's that dangerous. is the danger that I, I'd like to combat against this that natives face a different reality than our non native counterparts in a way we do. But in a way we don't. We're all facing some of the same issues. And I think that some of the pathways to solving those issues might be similar across cultural groups.
Unknown:So I think when I said I mean, okay, when I use the word world, I'm really talking about like, worldview. That's,
Shandin Pete:yeah. And I wasn't. Yeah, and I wasn't saying that you were saying that. I'm just saying, one of the things when we, of course, when we have to put a definition to something when Aaron says boom at then. Yeah, do you find indigenous science? Yeah, you're gonna, you have to find some something to say that's going to be fairly concrete at the time. But knowing that, yeah, I mean, there's some flexibility in it all. So I think that's one of the dangers number one is, I don't know, I wrestle with this because I, I need that I need that concrete anchor to grab on to like something in the short term to say, Okay, here's what it is. And I'm going to work off of that.
Aaron Brien:Okay, I think it's totally okay to have a concrete anchor. But is it? It's, it's important for you to know that that anchor can change.
Unknown:Yeah,
Shandin Pete:yeah. Is this a metaphor? No, it's
Aaron Brien:gonna change, like your point of research, will how or whatever it is, you're doing right, and you're saying that thing, whatever that concrete thing is, I think we're a poor researchable wrongness, they'll never change that. Oh, yeah. So that means that everything they're doing is always from that thing, whatever that is. Yeah. I don't even know like, what that can be or what? Like, it's important to like, change that, like purposely, like even if it even if it's still working for you, like just just do a different just to do it different, you know, yeah. Have a different datum. Yeah.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. And I think that's, that can be a problem across any science tradition, not just not just Western and indigenous science. Indigenous science can do the same thing. I mean, for God's sakes, if we don't, if we don't have anything new coming in, we're gonna have we're gonna be stuck with the same thing.
Aaron Brien:Well, I think, man, dude, like not to toot our own horn. But I've gotten some cool feedback from people. And I think people see our podcasts like that it's something new. It's different than what they've been being fed the last 20 years, you know, from this field. So I think the idea that if we can get more people to do something similar, create more perspective and more avenues for people to not be right. Because that's the research. Yeah, research is you're not right, or you're not wrong. You're you're just working it out. Yeah, the Indian people feel the need. I don't know where it comes from. But they can't be wrong in that space, either. So yeah. And our whole cast is based on us not knowing what to how we're talking.
Unknown:To good. That's good start. That's a good anchor. Yeah. So
Aaron Brien:it's like, so that's why we can bring people on like, like, like Josh here, and rounded singers and different people just because like, we're not tied to any one perspective, like, we call it an indigenous research kind of podcast. But really, I think it's just well, trying to figure it out, you know,
Unknown:look, going back to what you were saying, Shawn Dean about, like, I don't think we're in different places or whatever. Okay, so there's a lot of discussion of our differences, Indian, non Indian, whatever you want to call it. There's not a lot of discussion of like, well, what are the few things that we might have in common that are actually like we we actually do have in common? And, okay, so one thing that might be an analogue for this way of research or, or getting back or not getting back, but moving forward in a better way? Yeah, maybe one analog is music.
Aaron Brien:Right? Because, listeners,
Unknown:we don't have the luxury of meeting right and wrong answers in music. It's very subjective. And yet, we can make something that's more musical than not and sorted. No, it kinda can't explain why or how and yet, this is a human capacity. So I think about that and I'm, I'm more hopeful, right, because I think people need music In more ways than one, and they search for it, and they, they kind of yearn for it, and they want it. But the way they go about it, you know, it can be very repetitive and, you know, people can get caught in the same traps and the same kind of stuck in a rut. Not listening enough. And so I think that that's a pretty, pretty helpful starting point. Yeah. I don't I don't know that it's that it's though away or whatever. But it's kind of a good, it's a, it's a kind of a good way of thinking about these things. Because it requires balance and, you know, sensitivity and your whole person and you can't, you also have to know what you're doing. And you have to have good intent yet. Like, there's a lot involved in it. And so maybe the thing that indigenous research, the result, maybe the result of indigenous research is knowledge that is akin to music. Hmm. I don't know how, what better way to describe it than that. But it's like that. Mm hm. More musical it's less additive. You know, Western knowledge is kind of blue. Or, or very,
Shandin Pete:very noisy. Just made.
Unknown:Yeah, it's my language. Is that again
Shandin Pete:yeah, you know what I want to see, I want to see it has it has has we seen this yet is a native boy band. So, have we seen a native boy band?
Aaron Brien:I assure
Shandin Pete:native boy band. You guys want to do a native boy band? No, no. Okay. Josh. I think the wouldn't be native if Josh was in it, though.
Aaron Brien:Yeah, I guess not. Well, it'd be like owning the LLC Indian LLC as long as 51% and Josh has the 40 give you a taste
Unknown:of what spiritual bankruptcy really?
Aaron Brien:The equivalent of a boyband is singing around dead songs in the stairwell. Oh, yeah.
Shandin Pete:That's it. For the river. Yeah, well, yeah, of course. Well, you know what? I think we've we've been honest, for we've been at it for two hours, man. Oh, yeah.
Aaron Brien:Let's be done.
Shandin Pete:Come on. Let's be done. Well, you know what I want to say is just a quick shout out to a sponsor. We got wild gallery member wild gallery. That dude from town. Yeah, down in Texas. He's still supporting the show, man. Oh,
Aaron Brien:man. Thanks. Well, gallery where she laid?
Shandin Pete:First name is Ray Ray Donnelly.
Aaron Brien:Ray Don Lee wild gallery, Austin, Texas. Austin, Texas. Thank you for the support. Yeah,
Shandin Pete:wi l d dot gallery. Hit him up. And thanks, Josh.
Unknown:Partner.
Aaron Brien:That was good.
Shandin Pete:Do you feel D Do you need like a minutes services? Like after care? Are you alright?
Unknown:Oh, yeah, I'm gonna need counseling after this.
Aaron Brien:Now you're good. This was good, man. This was good.
Shandin Pete:Yeah. Yeah, I think that's some I think that's some good insight. Especially for some listeners who are maybe looking for some answers. I think that last thing about, you know, what indigenous research is I reflect on that as some things I would would also say,
Aaron Brien:maybe you should transcribe what he said.
Shandin Pete:So we transcribe it. We'll do some T shirts,
Aaron Brien:do some T shirts, of course. Black, white lettering.
Unknown:Are you wearing a t shirt with a paragraph?
Aaron Brien:What did you read it? Did you read it? Then you're welcome to
Unknown:soften.
Shandin Pete:Let's cut it off. All right. We're out man. Wait, no, we don't want let we don't wanna let Josh have any last words. He's too wordy. He talks about
Unknown:why Josh says by.
Shandin Pete:All right. Thank you for tuning in. I want to take some time to thank some of our Patreon sponsors. We've got Emma Lafave. Ryan Swanson, Marzano had Jay Ray, Rachel holster, Todd Davis, Louise Erdrich, Jason Freon and Mary Bobbitt. Thank you. Thank you Thank you so much for your continued contribution to help keep the show on the air and also want to take time to thank some of our past sponsors we've had any Oeste pitching in Thank you. Thank you for your donation. And also, Brian carpenter additional thank you for pitching in and helping the show. Stay on the air