#38 - That One White Guy on the Rez: Original Style Singing and Sovereignty

In this episode we take some time to jump around in our thoughts about a number important topic. We start the discussion by introducing the topic and issues of outsiders living in and around Indian County while enjoining in some of our cultural practicers. This brief discussion leads us in to an in depth conversation about original style powwow singing. In this discussion we take the time to provide some auditory examples of singing styes through a few different eras while pointing our nuanced differences. These examples provide a backdrop to further discussions on rules imposed by Tribal nations for their modern contest powwows. The concept of sovereignty and the importance of the witness are discussed. The conversation circles back to "that one White Guy" on the Rez while building up to the forthcoming next episode where this phenomenon will be discussed further. 

As mentioned in this episode, here are the links to the songs discussed:
Old Agency Pow Wow Singers - tasha helay YouTube Channel
Upper Crossing - Young Bear - Topic YouTube Channel
High Noon - Schemitzun World Championship 2000 - Topic YouTube Channel
Crow songs - All Nations Warriors Society YouTube Channel

As always, thank you for listening!

Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)

Episode Sponsor: Wyld Gallery - Austin Texas

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Transcript

Shandin Pete: 0:39

Hello and welcome to tribal research specialists the podcast where we will be talking about important things. I don't know they both sound the same.

Aaron Brien: 0:51

They both sound the same.

Shandin Pete: 0:56

I hear no difference. somes going on now though. I hear buzzing around. You're buzzing around as buzzing around the red hot gas was $1 Yeah, you got a bunch of stuff in a box still? Probably no, I

Aaron Brien: 1:31

don't attack. It's right there. It's put together. I just know. I

Shandin Pete: 1:34

mean from moving. You still got stuff in a box from moving? No, I

Aaron Brien: 1:38

don't. I mean, it's not like everything's unpacked. It's just not where it's supposed to be.

Shandin Pete: 1:46

Yeah, there's stuff that just stays in a box that don't have a place. But that box like all the shower curtains you ever bought, still in a box?

Aaron Brien: 1:57

Still in a box?

Shandin Pete: 1:58

Because you don't really need more than one shower curtain unless you got two bathrooms. But what are you going to do with all those extra shower curtains? You could throw them away? No way.

Aaron Brien: 2:08

Never know.

Shandin Pete: 2:09

Because you never know. Got there?

Aaron Brien: 2:14

These are Luke's cuffs and armbands. Neriah peachy? Lackey.

Shandin Pete: 2:21

Nice. Who did those for you?

Aaron Brien: 2:25

Nobody, the pawn shop. We weren't

Shandin Pete: 2:32

systematic oppression did it for me.

Aaron Brien: 2:36

You ain't getting us. You ain't get a custom job until you quit growing.

Shandin Pete: 2:41

Yeah, yeah, no kidding. That's got to stop.

Aaron Brien: 2:47

That's gotta stop. It's got to stop it redonk

Shandin Pete: 2:53

and you could you let them go as long as they can and the pair of shorts and they start looking like the 1960s basketball players and K 1010 Upgrade your shorts now. Time to upgrade.

Aaron Brien: 3:08

I've seen it day worrying. Cut off jean shorts. And he was my age. I thought whoa

Shandin Pete: 3:20

that's your future man.

Aaron Brien: 3:23

It was like so you just given up you just call it quits. Yeah.

Shandin Pete: 3:38

Yeah. I mean, that's not let me say I was gonna say you know you go for comfort but that's not really comfortable. That's more that's more cheap than comfortable.

Aaron Brien: 3:50

I remember cut off jean shorts are like the go to for swimming.

Shandin Pete: 3:55

No, God. Yeah, they were they were Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 3:59

We're talking about the other day to like Indian kids are the only people on the planet who have swimming shirts always had a couple of buddies that day refused to take their shirt off, you know? Oh, yeah, they had their swimming shirt. Oh, yeah. You guys over there. It's probably it's at Vandenberg camp 88 on

Shandin Pete: 4:29

i t yp summer camp 83 sleeves a cut off

Aaron Brien: 4:37

once the first time you heard somebody say refer to themselves as Salish.

Shandin Pete: 4:45

I've always had them that's it. We always call yourselves.

Aaron Brien: 4:49

You mean when you were young like isn't normal just to say flathead.

Shandin Pete: 4:54

I mean, you heard that term but everybody knew that we were Salish.

Aaron Brien: 4:59

I I know that but I mean, I guess what I'm asking is when did you? When did you start hearing it like the shift from LED head to Salish?

Shandin Pete: 5:08

Oh, yeah. Like Like, like an effort to change the change the narrative.

Aaron Brien: 5:18

Because I'm sure people always knew it was Salish. But

Shandin Pete: 5:22

yeah, and everybody referred to each other as Salish and all that business, but it probably wasn't until maybe the late 80s, early 90s. That just I guess, maybe around that time, where people started to try to abandon the Flathead Turman term. Some people still hold on to it pretty dearly. They want to they don't want to give it up.

Aaron Brien: 5:48

I've heard people make arguments for it. Right?

Shandin Pete: 5:52

I when I talk to people, and they asked me where I'm from, they're asking me where you know what, what kind of what flavor are you You know, you say Salish. Oh, we're from Montana. And the could tell they're really confused. Because when you say the word shouldn't be, yeah, sure. Yeah. The Aspen think of the coast. The coast

Aaron Brien: 6:15

because you're a goddamn flathead.

Shandin Pete: 6:19

So then I had to drop this the Flathead, the Flathead card. So people more No more closely referred to us as flatheads Oh, get in there. No. And again,

Aaron Brien: 6:30

Could you could you just say I'm, I'm I'm Salish from the Flathead reds. occurred. Yeah. But um

Shandin Pete: 6:48

yeah, I could do that. I'll do that. Okay, for you. I'll, I'll try to clarify that people can hone in on, hone in on it.

Aaron Brien: 6:57

Just just tell. Just tell them just say I got a crow, buddy. He doesn't like it. And I'm trying to act bougie. refer to it. As I'm saying this from the Flathead res.

Shandin Pete: 7:11

Yeah. He's got a problem

Aaron Brien: 7:15

that I'm proud to do. Let leatherwork Hey, are we started?

Shandin Pete: 7:20

Yeah. No, I just started recording right and we got on, you know?

Aaron Brien: 7:26

Damn, say does it all sailors trick?

Shandin Pete: 7:30

old sailors trick from the Flathead Indian Reservation, established 55. Via the Hellgate Treaty, signed by five, five to eight different tribes at the time. Shortly after it in which the lame bowl treaty was sourdough Judah the River Treaty was signed, which, which pretty much overrode much of our Aboriginal territories, and divvied out many, many, many, many of the prime hunting grounds to other tribes into the East.

Aaron Brien: 7:59

Including the Crow Indians,

Shandin Pete: 8:02

including, yes, the crows to the to the east. Now, this is a funny thing. And this is a funny thing about anywhere you go. One, maybe not anywhere, but in a lot of places you go. There's, um, there's that one. There's that one white guy that kind of lives in the heart of the rez and knows a lot of things might be steeped in the traditional ways. In more than in more than one aspect, right? So they're, they have a good understanding of protocols and traditions and then not want to go bragging around about what they do and what they know. as would a traditional person. The demeanor of a traditional person, I don't know is that a demeanor of a traditional person? I'm making a lot of assumptions.

Aaron Brien: 9:04

I don't

Shandin Pete: 9:04

maybe they're braggy you know, they're like all over the place. You know? Yeah, I got I got this pipe. It's one of the best pipes around. It's powerful.

Aaron Brien: 9:15

I could start I can start fires with my pay.

Shandin Pete: 9:18

Because once a money forest fire money, I'll start your fire. Yeah, you just wanted the mountain going.

Aaron Brien: 9:28

MIF guys.

Shandin Pete: 9:31

Yeah, the myth crews. Montana Indian firefighter called something else now. I don't know what it is. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe they are bragging. I mean, that was what that was. Oh, yeah, I don't know. In the tribal, tribal ground pounders. I don't know what they're called. They don't know how much yeah, we could talk about that later.

Aaron Brien: 9:56

I'm attempting to be a leather tool. A leather Tool Guy.

Shandin Pete: 10:00

I see you're quite busy. I see you're quite busy. You China. Well, you know you have to do first you got to die that leather that she ought to do first

Aaron Brien: 10:12

works, man, as you start making side bells. Oh yeah and make side bells, but I'm gonna do it a little different. I'm gonna I got a, like a stamping roller. Like it's a little floral design under the weather condition. I'm going to condition the leather.

Shandin Pete: 10:28

Yeah. Gotcha.

Aaron Brien: 10:30

Get it nice and conditioned. Okay, and then I'm going to edge it. I'm going to edge the leather. Got it takes that edge off the side of the leg.

Shandin Pete: 10:38

Oh, yeah. Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 10:39

you know, make it level. Make it look like a white guy did it? You know? The very white guy you're talking about?

Shandin Pete: 10:49

And what you know, so you gotta gotta die that because the flesh color. You know the flesh.

Aaron Brien: 10:59

Don't want to go with the nude.

Shandin Pete: 11:01

Don't go the nude. No, no, no, no, you got to darken it. Why not? Do what you want. Do what you want. Now Oh,

Aaron Brien: 11:11

you're getting a bit elitist. Canada

Shandin Pete: 11:14

would be my recommendation.

Aaron Brien: 11:18

Yeah, I'm gonna pay attention. Now. I just was doing this because I actually didn't know we were recording.

Shandin Pete: 11:23

Oh, yeah, we started man. We're on it. We're on top of it. We're 15 minutes no

Aaron Brien: 11:31

kidding condition. This is all about the condition

Shandin Pete: 11:38

what we're doing this year for honestly, what is the what is the condition softens

Aaron Brien: 11:41

the leather.

Shandin Pete: 11:43

Oh,

Aaron Brien: 11:44

it's it's for restoring and softening leather leathers? You want to do it? You know, you want to do it before you start working that leather. So

Shandin Pete: 11:57

as you've done before,

Aaron Brien: 12:00

you know, these are customers passed down. Generations, you know?

Shandin Pete: 12:07

Okay, you know, we're gonna you know, we're gonna talk about not today. And I got a homework assignment for you. I want I want you to watch this movie. Just out about

Aaron Brien: 12:21

Ray.

Shandin Pete: 12:22

Yeah. You watch that? No, we're gonna talk about it. No, no, because we're gonna have fun talking about it's gonna be a good one. Because I've watched

Aaron Brien: 12:30

it good.

Shandin Pete: 12:31

Well, I mean, this is the thing with Indians you can't make Indian show that's going to satisfy Indians is just not because I don't know who they hire that for to consult on certain things. But as soon as they flash a date, say you know this is 1719 then you start picking out everything odd. I didn't have that. Now, that's No, you didn't have that. That wasn't the thing. You know?

Aaron Brien: 12:57

I will say an Indian movie that I like that was completely inaccurate. But I enjoyed it was last have the dog been?

Shandin Pete: 13:07

Oh, no.

Aaron Brien: 13:09

Dude, I remember when that came out. Oh,

Shandin Pete: 13:13

no. He can. You're gonna we're gonna lose a star. We're gonna lose a star rating. Because of that. The No, we're

Aaron Brien: 13:24

gonna lose a star rating. We're gonna lose the star rating because we don't put out content.

Shandin Pete: 13:32

True. Both true. Yeah, the mythical land beyond the waterfall. And it's cool. Yeah. I guess. I don't know. I'd have to watch it again. Said it's pre

Aaron Brien: 13:47

This is pre YouTube, dude. Like

Shandin Pete: 13:49

it is yeah,

Aaron Brien: 13:50

remember, man? Like it was? I know. You're thinking of it like now, you know?

Shandin Pete: 13:57

Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 13:57

you're woke. You know? This is woke.

Shandin Pete: 14:02

Okay. All right. All right. Well drop it. It's cool. I don't like it. It's cool. But he put it in the time period. Suppose I suppose. Anyway, you're gonna watch that. We're going to talk about it. We're gonna talk about some some things that's

Aaron Brien: 14:19

already issues I know with it. I watched the trailer dude. Okay, I was like, no. Yeah, but I'll watch it. We'll watch it let's let's get back to white people. So we're don't know what I had Josh them lined up for a podcast last Wednesday and you never Oh, really? Yeah. Remember we said Wednesday? Oh, yeah. What

Shandin Pete: 14:44

happened? Oh, you didn't phone me. I thought you said

Aaron Brien: 14:47

whoever sent me a lethal

Shandin Pete: 14:48

California. I'll find you if it's

Aaron Brien: 14:52

first of all, I've never said the word phone. I've never said I'll phone you in my life.

Shandin Pete: 15:00

Uh, that that's what was supposed to happen. I was waiting for the phone call. Not that well, maybe maybe he didn't get a hold of him or some. I'll take it. I'll take the blame. And the phone thing I just made

Aaron Brien: 15:13

that the blame either way.

Shandin Pete: 15:15

Okay. Well, well. All right.

Aaron Brien: 15:18

I think you know deep down I've never said that my

Shandin Pete: 15:21

Yeah, probably. I'll agree. Let's agree to disagree on

Aaron Brien: 15:25

dinner. I ate during Big Sky State Games I ate dinner with John John.

Shandin Pete: 15:32

Oh yeah, our

Aaron Brien: 15:33

guest of the podcast. Yeah,

Shandin Pete: 15:35

yeah. Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 15:37

so we don't do do we do music anymore on this or no,

Shandin Pete: 15:40

we do I put it in there. I was gonna here's the tune. I was gonna put it in there.

Aaron Brien: 15:45

I'm putting this down.

Shandin Pete: 15:46

Alright. This is a good tune you ready? Yeah yeah it was that tune. I never heard it before. It was on old tape. from some guy who was I just recorded some various songs from here probably as this is probably in the 50s. And of course not. You know, there was visitors and all that around these parts and this guy I don't think it even says his name. Maybe it says the name. I can't remember right off. This guy's from Rocky Boy zones? Singing that tune? Rocky boys. Yeah. Rocky boys?

Aaron Brien: 17:11

Well, it definitely has that the the, the, the? Would you call it? The? The melody? Yeah, it's definitely like, you could tell that songs probably from like the 50s.

Shandin Pete: 17:24

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. US mentioned that, that one time, it kind of it made a lot of sense. You know, the radio became popular, more songs were kind of coming into the head. You know, mainstream songs like, you know, Country and Western and all that Christmas.

Aaron Brien: 17:41

Different, like, Yeah, different melody structures. That's what I think. So if you look at the evolution of music, so when you get to like the 20s and 30s. To me, those songs were sung for the 50 to 60 years before that. Then you get the radio and television everything's popping up. So it's introducing young composers to like a new melody structure our new meter. So you're starting to get like real European influence rhythm into that though, the way your vocals are. Your straight part is I mean, you have to know singing though, I think to even see that.

Shandin Pete: 18:26

Yeah, I think you're right. I think

Aaron Brien: 18:29

you're good enough to know what pretty good

Shandin Pete: 18:32

they don't come into spirits no more spirits is a whole different scale. That day, let's get them. I mean, lets them European dancing. European spirits. The spirit of the European song. Anyway, I cut you off go.

Aaron Brien: 18:59

Well, I was just gonna say because I like to stop the coladas. thing, you know, there's a debate amongst singers all the time, a constant debate, in fact, that constant criticism of each other really? Didn't you sit at the drum? There's this constant critique. Sometimes it's an educated critique. Sometimes it's just hatred, of singing style, what the original style of singing versus contemporary. Yeah, that's really based on like, three, maybe four drum groups from a certain time and I would put that eagle was so you know, okay. Probably Badlands. Okay. Maybe I don't know. I'm not I'm not that old. So mandatory. Well, we call original style singing, right. It's really those drum groups and ended up Here's if you chase it, it's all modeled after one or two people's personal style of singing. Hmm. You think so? So I actually think that ego was so there another time. People were probably going, Oh, those are those new guys. Like, that's how they sing now.

Shandin Pete: 20:24

Yeah, no, yeah, you're right. You're right. You're right. Yeah, you can hear it too. In some of the old recordings from the old power recordings back in the 60s and 50s, you know, can hear the can hear the ones that come from 30s and 40s. You know, then. Then the one the newer ones that sing so high holy cow, man. Oh,

Aaron Brien: 20:51

real high. Really high.

Shandin Pete: 20:54

Yeah, even higher than that go higher.

Aaron Brien: 20:57

But it's like crazy sounding. But I will.

Shandin Pete: 21:03

Go one, if you could do it. Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 21:13

I was gonna say though, I think if there's any drum group today, or in the last 15 years that I would save sounds like original style singing. The way the song is composed the way the beat is, and we're getting into nuances. Right. But like, I mean, to me, it's probably battle River. Oh, yeah. What do you think? What's your thoughts?

Shandin Pete: 21:38

Yeah, I think you're right. But I think you Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 21:45

If we're, if we're a man

Shandin Pete: 21:47

know, if we're, if we're talking about original style, and we're talking about original style being a certain in a certain era, you know? Yeah, I think you're right. So original style, if you're talking about the 70s or 80s 70s 60s and 70s. Wow, no, I don't know. I'm gonna have to disagree. No, I disagree. Okay, I don't think so. Do it? I don't think so. Tell me. Well, I mean, it doesn't sound like the signature of the 60s and 70s. That really Hi. Hi, I'm almost not well, you know, what is the sound? You know, when, when, when the song really bounces? You know, you could hear the bounce in the voice. Some of that stuff, some of the music from this from the 60s and 70s doesn't really have that. It seems like it's just, it's just really high. High and not not bouncy. Maybe I'm just maybe I'm just thinking of particular songs. But I think you're I think, like you're talking about battle River and mastery. I think that it have it evolved into into something I think

Aaron Brien: 22:59

that are the ADC to me sound way different. Yeah. Okay. And I think battle river if you were to take battle River in 1885, those people would be like, I can listen to this. Drop them off and 1960 they could still say, I can listen to this. You drop them off and to 1995 people be like, I can listen to this. That's what I mean. But I think you're talking more about how high people sing.

Shandin Pete: 23:31

Well, I mean, in a way yes. But also that was that was I am not talking about that but that was the signature you're talking about song composition, the composition of the

Aaron Brien: 23:42

way the song is way shows are made. Okay. Yeah, there's a certain song structure like the way it's made, like, in fact, to me, who encompasses that, like that sound? Yeah, like the way they they the drum sounds the tempo and the way the song is structurally put together. Yeah, me that's like old agency. Oh, yeah. You know, like that. We were like the melodics the melodic stuff runs instead of like, now it hits. Hey, hey, hey. Hey, you know what I mean? Yeah, songs hit now like the way they're made.

Shandin Pete: 24:28

I get you I get you. Yeah,

Aaron Brien: 24:31

we're old agency Blackfoot cross seen like Nighthawk the more Nighthawk guys their songs run.

Shandin Pete: 24:42

Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 24:43

In fact, if you get a young singer who's who sings with a drum group that seems like that, like Indian Nation. Yeah, they'll think that those guys are singing on the beat on certain parts of the song. Hmm. Because of the way the song runs like it carries itself, right? Yeah.

Shandin Pete: 25:01

Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 25:02

Like this is really like, this is really fine. Like, there's no way you could play it to now, like we're talking about right and versus something new. Right now, I couldn't do that we couldn't Yeah, we couldn't show the listener that.

Shandin Pete: 25:19

Oh, yeah, I could do that. I think.

Aaron Brien: 25:24

Pretty good. Who do you get? To see?

Shandin Pete: 25:29

Let me look, maybe I got some, let's see. I don't have any. I don't have any old

Aaron Brien: 25:37

agency. It's summertime. I like singing summertime. And I just, I just like to, like around here. Yeah, while you're doing that, I'll give you an example around here in crow country, people will say like, sing that song. Crow style. But what they're not realizing they're saying, yes, sing that song. How Cedric walks would sing. As what we would define as the signature crow style of singing really came from one guy centric walks, because prior to that, like worn bare cloud, very pretty paint ABCs The ground these kind of Legends here. They had a certain style of singing. Yeah. And it it was probably fairly intertribal. You know what I mean? Yeah. Recognizable places Yeah, we're the crow style of singing became the Nighthawk style. You know, Nighthawk drum group.

Shandin Pete: 26:39

Yeah. Okay, here's an example. I get what you're saying.

Aaron Brien: 26:43

Okay, let's hear it.

Shandin Pete: 26:44

Here's an exam kit. I don't know how this is gonna work. Oh yeah. All agencies singers have the blood reserves Yeah. Just pulling this straight from YouTube

Aaron Brien: 26:57

your mutes on on the on the YouTube video.

Shandin Pete: 27:00

Is it oh yeah, no, I'm not playing it yet. I'm just building up okay. Oh, okay. Yeah, this is a YouTube let's give some credit here so we don't get any copyright trouble here again. I don't know is that a thing?

Aaron Brien: 27:13

We can throw the link we could not Yeah, this is the link Yeah, well so the link on

Shandin Pete: 27:19

here it is here notes let's listen to it. We're listening to the run the run this is the one you said the song runs

Aaron Brien: 27:26

are you ready? The song runs this gem group Can you hear it I can hear it

Shandin Pete: 27:48

oh that sounds good. Sounds good.

Aaron Brien: 27:52

That's how you should see ya

Shandin Pete: 28:07

can play that

Aaron Brien: 28:13

now for the listener and you got to listen to the way that that beat even though it's a mono rhythmic beat you got to listen to how it's attacking the drum

Shandin Pete: 28:26

part stop OH MAN Hey, okay, now let's look let's let's let's let's let's show the comparison now. The comparison is good, but now we're showing a comparison. What was the comparison the choppy what's the more original popular today?

Aaron Brien: 29:20

I wouldn't I wouldn't call it choppy but I would call it yeah no different so let's just look up young very young Baron like one of the baddest groups are renowned I love their sound I'd love their sound Oh album go to an album. Yeah that way we can it's it's polished okay listener go to there was one that was called Born to sing like an an album they come out with called Born to bear born sing or something. Let's do that. Yeah, here it is. There. I know some of these guys. Okay. huh okay, go down. There's one called upper crossing, which I think is influenced by Bronson McDonough delete Bronson McDonald. I'm not sure because he used to have a drum group called lower crossing upper just kind of connected with these guys. Let's check it out. Right there. Okay, good song.

Shandin Pete: 30:18

All right. Let's make sure we're here go here go juxtapose?

Aaron Brien: 30:56

Okay, press pause for

Shandin Pete: 30:57

a second okay. Yeah. What is it?

Aaron Brien: 31:02

That's a bad example because that song sounds badass.

Shandin Pete: 31:07

I mean, you can you can hear obviously the difference because of the era. But

Aaron Brien: 31:12

let's era like the song. That song does have a lot of that original style of running like the way the song runs. So you actually you know who really has that sound? The hard hitting running or like hitting the corners? It's high noon. High Noon. I would say high noon of course like Mr. or No Mr. Gruber. Probably you can see so older than them. Think so. Some in different eras with dryly John John and the boys, you know? Well, here's okay. Oh, do that. Just do that one right there. I think that one's probably a good one. I don't know some

Shandin Pete: 31:55

high noon. This is 2000 says that's that's a couple of decades. Oh.

Aaron Brien: 32:02

Whoa, did archives much. Here we go.

Shandin Pete: 32:24

Good, but you can hear it. You could already hear it. Yeah, that was that bounce? I was talking about real bouncy. Yeah, yeah. Real bouncy, which is good. I mean, not to say that. This is kind of what I'm what I think people think original style sounds

Aaron Brien: 32:46

like yeah, so this is more. This is better than my young bear example. Yeah. Oh, I mean, what there's something about it.

Shandin Pete: 32:56

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's good. But then hit the same as some of the older stuff. It's good, though. This should get you going. Great recording. It's kind of mixing angry. Thinking about your ex or something. Like, oh, but

Aaron Brien: 33:14

you see, you see how this song guy

Shandin Pete: 33:16

didn't like in high school. Now it's getting anyway. But yeah, it would be

Aaron Brien: 33:20

nice to compare this song. Like if there is man I don't know. So like, so if there's a way we could find an old recording of like say Blackfoot crossing or old agency, even Mandarin or some singing a song and then compared to a drum group now singing it. And you could hear I would hear that. Because even the style in which we sing because of the contest is of contest singing. We enunciate and like we want to attack the song like boom, yeah. Hey, hey. Oh, you know,

Shandin Pete: 34:00

yeah, that's that's the contest. Contest influence.

Aaron Brien: 34:03

Yeah. Well, because now singing what most people don't know about Paulo singing is that it's just as much visual in the contest as it Oh, yeah. The look of the drum group like Yeah. Even like, do they seem into it? Are they? Yeah, go back to that old agency and play that over again. That's,

Shandin Pete: 34:26

that's I want to start from I

Aaron Brien: 34:27

know probably don't they probably don't want to hear this. This is our

Shandin Pete: 34:34

start. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna start it back where we had it Oh, yeah.

Aaron Brien: 34:47

Oh, they're gonna jump it up a gear.

Shandin Pete: 34:49

Yeah. You can still feel the bounce, but it's this is a different type of bounce. Like you said it kind of runs song a song that lends to that

Aaron Brien: 35:14

band. This is classic sounding. It is.

Shandin Pete: 35:19

Yeah. These are these are all the non contest drums that set up. This is their sound because they're not trying to win that kind of win the big money they're just singing man. Sounds good. This is a different era

Aaron Brien: 35:43

but But yeah, if you really listened to the way the song is put together, it lacks that ability to hit it hard like to hit those corners. Because the song doesn't even allow for it. Yeah, ya know what I mean? So yeah, that's it. I say it's not just the it's not just the way we sing. It's the actual structure of the song is designed. Or the singing contest?

Shandin Pete: 36:11

Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Now we need to listen to a song from the Arab prior to this. Oh, yeah. I don't know what to pull one from their budget.

Aaron Brien: 36:29

Cheyenne war dead song. Remember that old Indian house in fact, let's let's go to cooking crow word and songs. Like there's a there should be something set up there in the YouTubes

Shandin Pete: 36:48

YouTube fun Ward, crow ward? Dancehall there's that too? You gotta spell it right. That too? Oh, here it is. This one? No,

Aaron Brien: 36:59

sorry. Sorry. Sound chiefs. There you go. Yeah, just give it a click see? Let's Yeah, I would venture to say this is going to be a little more similar to what you would know in flathead Yeah. Early 40s With the sound but

Shandin Pete: 37:16

yes more. I've heard this and I agree. I've heard this and I Oh, do you? Yeah. Okay.

Aaron Brien: 37:25

Even though this is probably recorded in seven days this is a good song. It is ah, yeah.

Shandin Pete: 38:12

Like four people singing versus today well, Max, you're maxing out at 12 sinners 10 to nine at the least for the contest.

Aaron Brien: 38:32

That's beautiful.

Shandin Pete: 38:43

Yeah, that's good. All right, just a quick break here to thank some of our sponsors, especially wild gallery Wyld dot g, a LLERY. Wild gallery. Thank you for supporting the show. And thank you to past sponsor, Louise Erdrich. Thank you both for your continued contributions and your past contributions to keep the show on the air. Thank you Well, you get your trance and outlet and you get

Aaron Brien: 39:34

it but you get what I'm saying about the beat or a young singer will probably think that beats taken off from the song. Yeah. But it's the way the song is composed, carries the beat. So what it is, is it's just came to me. The way songs are composed in is you have to sing the song to stay on the beat. Or now, your song is influenced by the beat. So like you're like, beat is the even the beat is choppier. And that's real like we're way in the weeds now, but listener in percussion like my brother would say the attack listen to the attack, or like, when you listen to these guys sing or Badland sing, it's almost like the drumstick bounces off the drum where we're even straight singing now, it like attacks the drum like it's a BAP BAP BAP BAP BAP, where this just kind of like they just let let it ricochet off the drum. And that's, I think that bounciness you're talking about is dictated by that, I think. Well, I'll just suggest I'm

Shandin Pete: 40:51

not going to disagree with you on that. But I think yeah, it has some to do with some of them songs like some songs you know, they're they're right on the edge of being on the beat. And like you said, I don't know if that's the that's not really the it's not the singers. It's just the song. It pushes the beat pushes right up against that

Aaron Brien: 41:13

it does some Yeah, you would really have to know what you're talking about are doing to know even know what we're talking about. But yeah, if somebody's listening to this mean, like what the hell are they talking about? Just know we're talking about something pretty cool pretty cool. You know, you want to learn 10% You know, you want to do good. Hope you

Shandin Pete: 41:43

sound like Beetlejuice in the lobby.

Aaron Brien: 41:49

Actually, what number you guys up for crossings?

Shandin Pete: 41:52

What? Okay.

Aaron Brien: 41:56

You're gonna play this upper crossing tuna. Good. Dude. That's a killer song though. I forgot. Actually, it does have a lot of that running in it like that. It could tell Well, let's

Shandin Pete: 42:06

do it again.

Aaron Brien: 42:08

Okay, do you

Shandin Pete: 42:08

have listened to once this? Yeah yeah. Yeah pretty good. You know, yeah, there's some singers, you can hear it in the lead, right? They got that old, the old timey voice because they're not real.

Aaron Brien: 43:03

grandkids. These are the grandkids of Bill Baker, who is like the godfather of what we would call the modern style of singing of street singing. That's, that's probably the best way to say it is the modern style of street singing.

Shandin Pete: 43:19

I like that. The modern style.

Aaron Brien: 43:22

Because really, we're all kind of mimicking him that that role that real distinct role in our singing? Yeah, kind of seemed to come from other than that. It was like, like, well, we listen to our old agency that was kind of more of a of a broad Oh, not a role, you know?

Shandin Pete: 43:38

Yeah. Not much of a role there. So it's thinking of Yeah, mine's me of Kevin kicking woman he he's got that real. They're not a lot of role in it. I can't describe it. But if you ever hear him bust out

Aaron Brien: 43:52

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Versus like Ronnie Dhoni who's

Shandin Pete: 43:56

Yeah, oh, roll. Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Brien: 44:00

I think sometimes we can over

Shandin Pete: 44:02

roll. Overall. Yeah, overall.

Aaron Brien: 44:06

Yeah, overall, there is some over row Michael Fromm boys is super influenced by that style of singing like that. That real high kind of Badland Yes. No, you're crossing like? Yeah, real high. Yeah. Way up

Shandin Pete: 44:25

there. I can't sing like there anymore. I tried. Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 44:29

For those of you don't know Shawn Dean was a pretty rank singer, man. Like I just actually listened to recording Have you taken a lead? Was there at Rocky Boy like a few years ago?

Shandin Pete: 44:44

Oh, yeah. That was a few years ago. That was two years ago. That was probably my last time really, really singing. And I hadn't had since

Aaron Brien: 44:57

it was that art six Oh, no, not

Shandin Pete: 45:00

that far back. No, it was nine, maybe 2016 I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't need that.

Aaron Brien: 45:10

Last time I really like really pushing in. It's been over 10 years, like really? went for it, you know, so no, it's not that I lost interest is so I've served focus on on other types of singing but also like just saying, like, filling my brain full of songs, you know?

Shandin Pete: 45:30

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that power singing is so it's it's very transient, you know, you don't hold on to it for very long you. You learn a few. You sing them out, then you're done, then go on to the next and you might sing a whole new set of songs. Very few are repeated

Aaron Brien: 45:51

act. I think it can ruin singers for that.

Shandin Pete: 45:55

Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 45:56

Where are you? Like, if you get pick or hired on to sing with a drum that weekend? I know. I'm not going to pick any songs. Yeah, I'm not gonna be asked to pick any songs. Yeah. And so my job is to sing so you almost don't exercise your brain to like, have recall. Yeah. Yeah, like somebody's older guys. Like, like, more what we would call traditional power. I gotta dance. That's all it is, is recall. Yeah. And so then if you're sitting there are five guys and he's already picked two or three songs. And they'll be like, Well, what do you want to sing? So there's a lot more that like, you pick a song now you pick a song now? Yeah, you got to recall, you know, that I've been singing like here and stuff with. Yeah, kind of the smaller stuff and

Shandin Pete: 46:46

yeah, but there but the songs you know are gonna get repeated again. At some point.

Aaron Brien: 46:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you go to a crow dance right now, like a non contest power kind of a crow dance. Well, we would just call it dance. There'll be say there's 50 songs sung. Yeah, 30 of them are going to be songs you song that then the last place? Yeah, in fact, people look forward to it. See, that's another thing. Like there's people who like, they know you're gonna sing these five, six songs. So they're gonna they're gonna want to they want to listen to it. Or the women want to sing backup for those songs. Yeah, we're like a powerhouse. It's almost like if you saying three, those three inner tribals on Saturday night, three weekends in a row Christ. Like talk about you.

Shandin Pete: 47:39

It's thing that two weeks ago.

Aaron Brien: 47:42

In fact, I think it's worse with contempt singing like contemporary stuff, and we didn't even get into that in that little. Oh, no, we did in that little

Shandin Pete: 47:50

tour there. We had a goat. Yeah, so while we should walk down the contempt tour next time. That's an interesting one. That's an interesting

Aaron Brien: 47:59

one. I've come to grips with this. Yeah, I'm a fan of contempt singing. Yeah, I am. Yeah, I'm not a contempt singer. Because I physically cannot like for one I don't know how to say a lot of them words and yeah, like that. That style of drumming is exhausting to me but yeah, I like there's like some killer tunes man. Just like I just heard this Blackstone recording like, Yeah, from is a live recording on YouTube. But it's a song date that was on that old Blackstone for the Shane recording.

Shandin Pete: 48:36

Oh, you remember that? Oh, yeah. But

Aaron Brien: 48:39

and it just was like, Man, this song. That's cool. This is cool. Can Yeah. Singing a lot of ways saved singing? Yeah. Because it like died out. And you had groups like Blackstone and Yeah, well, I

Shandin Pete: 48:55

remember. Aaron toussis was talking about that. Kind of made it popular with the young people certain style around dancing with English words. He was saying that kind of saved it. Yeah, I think

Aaron Brien: 49:09

remember. I said, had it not been for that style of round dancing. And I probably would have never stuck with seeing the way I did.

Shandin Pete: 49:18

Yeah. You might have got into ranching and farming.

Aaron Brien: 49:23

Yeah, I still might do that.

Shandin Pete: 49:26

Still in the cards.

Aaron Brien: 49:27

Who knows? Why limit yourself?

Shandin Pete: 49:29

Right? Right. Right. Right. So anyway, there's that one white guy? Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 49:37

Yep. Back to the white guy speaking to a white guy. Calling mountain.

Shandin Pete: 49:42

Yeah, calling mountain net. Oh, that was gonna be my question. That was my question is let's do it. That's the quick I mean, yeah, there's there's always that one person. Some people don't know what they call them these days or whatever they are allies or aren't What is I don't know what the I don't want to call them. What do you call them?

Aaron Brien: 50:08

white folk man.

Shandin Pete: 50:11

But they're they live on the rez, they know all this stuff. But my question was do can they ever get the the, the singing the singing is similar to be a challenging one. You can know everything about the ways and custom and belief and you can assimilate into all that but can outsiders actually like the conversation we just had? And to speak to sing and not in in those many different styles but be able to sing and sound. I guess the question is to sound authentic. Have you seen that? And you said you mentioned when calling Mountain Dew sounded.

Aaron Brien: 50:57

They sounded legit. And they never even lived on the rez, man.

Shandin Pete: 51:01

Yeah, yeah. They never did. You right? Where they live like, Dylan or something. Right, Dylan?

Aaron Brien: 51:09

Or like, Big Sky is a big sky Montana

Shandin Pete: 51:12

maybe had enough

Aaron Brien: 51:13

something I can't remember. But they would actually go to power house, they would set up. They look like ZZ Top. big beards. And, and I think people tease them. But once they started singing, I think people respected quality no matter what it was like boys could sing, man. Yeah, they could. I wouldn't say they'd win a drum contest by any means. But they were doing it. Right. And that that tells you something about Indian people. It's like, yeah, you could be a rocket and crew. But if you'd like you're not doing it. Right. Yeah. It comes out like you're it's noticeable.

Shandin Pete: 51:47

It is. It is. No, it is and I think that's also in comes in other ways as well in in a person and and outsiders efforts to be part of Indian community, I guess. But yeah.

Aaron Brien: 52:02

Um, is that appropriation?

Shandin Pete: 52:05

I don't know. That's a good one. I know. Um, you know, the whole Kamloops power debacle, the scene all that going off on social media because of their old rules they had and people was making a big deal about Kamloops wanting to have you show you your proof of one quarter blood or something like that. And their explanation was that well, somebody had came in who wasn't native at all, and one won the contest of some sort. And

Aaron Brien: 52:41

what was the good?

Shandin Pete: 52:43

I don't know, I don't know the background story behind it. But that was kind of an I guess they said it was an old rule that was from a couple decades ago. They just never changed. You know, you just reprint the program from the previous powwow and you just keep carrying your rules over and you don't you don't really care to update him.

Aaron Brien: 53:00

Because I mean, but do they really need some data?

Shandin Pete: 53:04

Oh, no, I don't know. I

Aaron Brien: 53:06

mean, is there anything wrong with boundaries?

Shandin Pete: 53:13

No, I don't think so.

Aaron Brien: 53:15

I'll ask the hard hitting question. It doesn't mean I have the answers but is what Kamloops did wrong?

Shandin Pete: 53:26

I don't know. I mean, if those rules had been there, they've been there. They said these rules were they've been there for? I don't know, I'm just guessing that it's a decade or more, I don't know. But it was only till somebody made a big deal about it, that it became an issue.

Aaron Brien: 53:42

You got to do it for Indian rodeo. Yeah.

Shandin Pete: 53:47

One quarter. You got to be one quarter. I

Aaron Brien: 53:49

think it's this. I think you have to have. You can be a descendant, but it's still proof of descendency.

Shandin Pete: 53:55

Gotta show some proof.

Aaron Brien: 53:58

And you gotta I mean, you can't enter a rodeo without a cowboy hat and a button up shirt. Like there's rules. You know what I mean? Like,

Shandin Pete: 54:06

is that true? You can't

Aaron Brien: 54:08

they it's a thing like even rodeos where you can't be behind the bucking chutes without a cowboy hat on.

Shandin Pete: 54:16

You're kidding me.

Aaron Brien: 54:20

Um, that was a horrible joke. If I

Shandin Pete: 54:24

can show with your Boonie hat hanging out. Bucking chutes or you

Aaron Brien: 54:31

can wear you can wear a hat anytime like a cat. But I think when you compete you have to wear the cowboy. It's like the jersey. It's like a jersey. So I mean, I don't

Shandin Pete: 54:41

what? But the bull riding they don't wear cowboy hats no more they'll wear

Aaron Brien: 54:46

after you're born after. I can't remember the date but you have to wear a helmet after if you're born after a certain time. If you're born before that you grandfathered in, you can Don't wear the hat. Really? Yeah, cuz they don't want to wear the helmet. So they had to make a hard and fast rule, really, but so like, here's the thing with power, though, it's like this is to me what happens when you take a traditional concept? In, turn it into something that's commercialized because you're gonna get commercial things with it. Yeah. So nobody's saying I think you can't. I'm a dude. Right? If I wanted to be a jingle just answer I'm gonna go be a jingle just answer. I don't think anyone's saying you can't be that. What they're saying, though, is if you're going to try to win money from us. You got to be you can compete with the girls, but I'm going to lose to them. I'm not a good Judas. Don't know. I don't I'm not saying that the right answers. I'm not even saying what I believe anything. I'm even saying because I don't even know what I'm really talking about.

Shandin Pete: 56:05

Oh, you're riding the fence partner. You were talking game. Now you're riding the fence?

Aaron Brien: 56:10

Well, for one, because I don't have that issue. Right. I know exactly which category I would be in had I had I've been a dancer. So I'm not the one with with this. Like, I don't have this. Like where do I go sing? Yeah. Well, what about pro style dancers who have to compete in northern style? Right? Is that wrong? Are you not recognizing the crow hardened answer when it comes to your power? You're being inconsiderate.

Shandin Pete: 56:43

I feel like I feel like you're attacking me like I'm the

Aaron Brien: 56:47

you live in BC.

Shandin Pete: 56:54

I'm ready to get defensive.

Aaron Brien: 56:56

I'm gonna live in BC. And I feel like God dang it. So okay, here's the thing. All right. So whether it's gender, whether it's race or identity. The thing about tribe, tribal people is that if you own a right, let's just say Chandi. Okay. I know of your particular involvement in your guys's ceremonies, and if I know that, and I'm not even from your tribe, but I was a member of your community for a long time. I'm aware of its public role. So I'm like, Well, if someone came to me and said, I need help, I need to go talk to certain people. I would say I know those people who hold those positions, okay. Now, what if I come along and say, well, that's how I feel. I feel like I should have that position. Someone in your, in your role would say that's not how it works, though. You can feel a lot of things, right. But the fact remains, right? Whether it's very a very formal system, a very informal system is still there, that right has to be recognized by the public, really, and especially those who, who have who hold positions in that whatever thing we're talking about. So when somebody comes to me and says, I identify as an Indian, Okay, who else recognizes that?

Shandin Pete: 58:30

Yeah, that's an important one. Because

Aaron Brien: 58:34

everything else we do in Indian country has to be recognized by another because and people can say we're wrong. People can say that. But that's the facts. Yeah. In crow country, you have to own the the right to speak in public to address the crowd. If you don't own that, right. And you come and say, I'm going to talk to the crowd. Somebody will say, where did you get your right? Yeah. They want to verify that you own this right to speak in public. Yeah. Is that wrong of that society to do that?

Shandin Pete: 59:11

No, it's not

Aaron Brien: 59:13

all it's, it's there, right? So let's put that in Kamloops shoes, what have Kamloops says no, these are our rules. Yeah. Who are we to say like, that's their dance. They own that dance for that week

Shandin Pete: 59:29

and their territory, their countries, their territory,

Aaron Brien: 59:32

and then we come in and say you guys are wrong, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You shouldn't recognize them. Now, whose rights are we stepping on?

Shandin Pete: 59:43

Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 59:46

So what do you I mean, I guess it turned out that cameras was like, Oh, they're antiquated rules. I personally think they just said they rolled over and kind of got scared, but yeah. People were outed. it rattled the cage. But yeah, I feel like it's not my position to tell another tribe how to run their dance. Right? Yeah, in fact, when you're going to a power, when you're invited to a power by another tribe, they usually will say, come and celebrate with us. Yeah. They don't say, Hey, you bring your celebration to us.

Shandin Pete: 1:00:24

Yeah. Yeah, bring your rights and solutions and everything along with it.

Aaron Brien: 1:00:30

There's a lot of issues I've had over the years with our lead Paulo, and for as much I lived there for 13 years. Yeah, in our league, I lived there for 13 years. I never had a right to change it. That's not my right. That's not my place.

Shandin Pete: 1:00:44

Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 1:00:46

So I think we got to be careful about how liberal we get with our own thing. Yeah, this is Powell. And this is different thing I'm just using as an example. But so then this goes back to this other topic about white people and joining the things we do and yeah, how close this close and what should we share? And it gets it gets tough, because I think, as when you're a member of a community, whether you're enrolled or not, you know, your limits. Yeah. With with that thing, if you're introduced to it properly. Yeah. I'll use myself as an example. Trying to flathead when I was 18. Yeah. I was befriended by who, I would say are the, on the more traditional side of things over there. And people took me in publicly announced to people that I was being taken as a son. Yeah, I was recognized in the community by what I would think is the traditional people. Yeah. And, and. But at no point did, I think I had, say, and how those things should happen, or I didn't claim to be the Fire Keeper. Like I never did that. I just kind of

Shandin Pete: 1:02:13

weren't assigned a role.

Aaron Brien: 1:02:15

No, no, even if they would have given me one. I would have said I would have probably did it out of respect for that moment. But I never I never, I never pushed anybody out man. Like, no way. You know, I don't know you. And you were witness to pretty much my entire time there. But what do you think?

Shandin Pete: 1:02:38

No, you're right, you're right. It doesn't work like that. It's not like a you can hand out things like a person can hand out. These These designations. There's just not someone who can do that. Maybe if maybe, maybe, per family, they you know, they want to recognize somebody and have them help out in a certain way. But yeah, tribal wide. That's just not that's that's not here. Just doesn't mean that Yeah, and it's not here, either.

Aaron Brien: 1:03:12

Really. Yeah. And

Shandin Pete: 1:03:13

I think you're right. Personal with the, with the right amount of modesty would recognize that. Yeah, you come into a community, you're not just going to try to take over even if somebody is trying to decide that for us. It's not you just don't do that. Just not not not a place for anybody to no matter who says it, you got to kind of step back and gauge gauge your own familiarity and awareness with the people and the need of the community with your own ego, and adjust your your responsibility accordingly. That's really important. And that's not doesn't always happen that way. That was so that's kind of depressing. It's kind of brought the whole podcast down with that little diatribe on your life. I'm not the one this sounds like an episode of who's the guy that this psychologist as a doctor, what is his name? What you the last? Anyway,

Aaron Brien: 1:04:26

he probably lost losers. Listen, listeners, once they hear this part of the podcast, they're gonna be like, these guys think they know everything. I mean, but there's just some stuff you do know, though. I know that. I know that. For at least tribes in our region. Yeah. You could call it transfers. You can call it right. You can call it positions you can call it and those positions are only as good as the people who recognize them and a lot of ways

Shandin Pete: 1:04:59

Yeah. No, that's that's 100% the truth. What is

Aaron Brien: 1:05:04

that mean? And I don't mean to offend anybody or anything. But if your community does not recognize the thing you're claiming, then I'm sorry, whether you think the Great Spirit gave it to you or not public is just as important.

Shandin Pete: 1:05:20

More More, more important. Yeah.

Aaron Brien: 1:05:24

I remember one time you were doing that scalp dance. And you announced in there that. The witness, though, and I don't know how you said this, but the witness had a position there. Yeah. Dance, to bear witness to what is happening. So you can say, who was involved in it? That's important, because light is someone. It's really important when people say, Oh, I seen that when they gave someone so this or when they did this, or when these were the people involved? That's important, man. Yeah. Like,

Shandin Pete: 1:06:03

yeah, if you have two witnesses versus 100 witnesses, then the story gets straight pretty quick. The story real quick, really quick. There's no there isn't? There's no question. There's zero question. Yeah, that is important.

Aaron Brien: 1:06:18

And we've somehow kind of adopted that insular kind of like way of thinking. It's like, what is this? How I feel? I don't have to tell you. Where I got this. It's like, you do? It? Yeah. Yeah, you do.

Shandin Pete: 1:06:34

It's really the foundation of being kind of being in a tribe or a tribal unit. You know?

Aaron Brien: 1:06:41

It's a group.

Shandin Pete: 1:06:43

It is, yeah. Is this I'm saying like,

Aaron Brien: 1:06:47

if I come off the mountain and claim to have this power in and I can verify it. Almost like it's almost like a pet peeve, you know, because I, I hear people say this stuff. And I'm like, Okay, I understand that culture loss is important. I mean, that's the world I live in. Right. Yeah. And I know that, like, there's certain tribes that have lost certain things. But I would actually say that's more of an argument for the public verification. Yeah. It is the witness. For that reason.

Shandin Pete: 1:07:22

It is it straight It would strengthen everything. It was strengthen everything.

Aaron Brien: 1:07:27

Yep,

Shandin Pete: 1:07:28

it would. Yep.

Aaron Brien: 1:07:30

Like, and I won't say any names here, but we have a person on the rez who who identifies as a woman dressed like a woman. Everyone knows this individual as a woman. Yeah. When we go into the Sundance, there's a position placed designated for the woman. Yeah. For the women. And that's where she stands. Yeah, she doesn't stand in like the middle of the men and the women. Like, there's no like, he's right there with the women. So to me that says the public recognizes what she says. Right? It's verified. Right. You know?

Shandin Pete: 1:08:13

Yeah, in that case, yeah, sir.

Aaron Brien: 1:08:15

In that case, I'm not arguing with him. I can recognize it's fair if

Shandin Pete: 1:08:20

you'd had the fight to change it.

Aaron Brien: 1:08:24

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, wait. Yeah, for sure. This fight, break dance fight. So that's why so when i The Kamloops stuff first got brought up, I was like, I was like, What the hell can lose? Yeah. But then I started thinking like, wait a second, if we're recognizing sovereignty, we're recognizing, like, the First Nations in Canada. Yeah. Sovereignty, you have the sovereign right to make good and bad decisions to govern your own people. Yeah. Sovereignty is neither inherently good or inherently bad. It's you can do and so if that's what they want to do. Well, who are we? Yeah, yeah, that's real pompous man, like real arrogant to be like, hey, independent tribal nation changed the way in thinking

Shandin Pete: 1:09:22

What did I in the I opened it

Aaron Brien: 1:09:25

people, the people. The, the people who are bitching about the camera stuff are the same people who talk about decolonization and indigenizing this year. They're the ones the ones that need they need the list and man, yeah,

Shandin Pete: 1:09:46

there's a limit. There's a limit. There's a

Aaron Brien: 1:09:49

limit. There's a time and a place to call people out on their shit. There's also a time and a place to know when you don't have that right to do

Shandin Pete: 1:09:57

it. Yeah, and any and everyone has the right to boycott and protest if they don't like it. Yeah, I mean, that's

Aaron Brien: 1:10:04

and you have the right to bitch.

Shandin Pete: 1:10:06

Yeah. You do you have the right to bitch.

Aaron Brien: 1:10:09

Kamloops does not have the obligation to change anything? No. That's where I that's what I would say. Yeah. Public has the right to say something.

Shandin Pete: 1:10:20

Right. Yeah. And if they felt the public had something to say about it that would change their ways. And that's their right to change it. Also,

Aaron Brien: 1:10:30

that is their right.

Shandin Pete: 1:10:32

There's a lot of rights, a lot of rights,

Aaron Brien: 1:10:35

rights and left's and anyway, white folk,

Shandin Pete: 1:10:43

oh, yeah, it gets get back to that. Now, which we need to talk about that more though, but maybe, okay, so we'll, we'll do a part two to this. Let's do it. Because this is an interesting one. And I think, if we can pull in a guest that might be able to speak a little bit more on their experience. I know what kind of guy and you know of a guy. And I got a white guy. Got we got one to come in?

Aaron Brien: 1:11:14

Who got one. All right, but a white guy. Let's do it. So let's pose the question of what kind of fit maybe we'll finish with like a 10 minute rant about this. Yeah. What's

Shandin Pete: 1:11:26

the what's the thought?

Aaron Brien: 1:11:28

So far? What we're talking about is is it's several layers here. First of all, white people have a role in either social organization, or like, ceremonial life of tribes. First, that's the big question, right? Yeah. Yeah. A second question is, if if they do have a role in there, how far is there involved? How much involvement? Is it? Do they get like a pared down version of it? Do they? There's, I have a lot of questions about this. And actually, a few weeks back, I called you and I said, I was ranting and raving about something. Yeah. And what it was was, I had, I won't say any names, but I had witnessed a particular ceremony where there was quite a number of non Indian people. And the question I asked you at the time, I think was is it good or bad? And I think I said something about, is it interruptive? Did I say that?

Shandin Pete: 1:12:36

Maybe something to that effect, or

Aaron Brien: 1:12:39

something like that? Yeah. Like I said, can it actually be interruptive? Are? Am I just in the wrong? Does the people running the dance ultimately have the right which that's what I believe that people in the dance ultimately, running the dance, or the ceremony ultimately have the right to say, we can have for white people, we can have 400 White people? That's their right.

Shandin Pete: 1:13:04

Yeah, we talked, you talked about this during about to Sundance and the whole picture, taking no picture taking thing. And it'd be up to the leader. At that time with you won't allow it or not, it's not up to anybody else to just say. I think some

Aaron Brien: 1:13:23

Yeah, and those rules, and I've known of those rules to vary. Yeah. And that's where that leader would allow what that weekend. Next time he did it, he didn't allow it. But it's completely up to that person who owns that position. Right. So I think what we'll do, and you just mentioned, it will bring in a guy we know who's done research in Indian country who teaches at our works at a tribal college, I think he teaches there. And has actually had personal experience with what he personally coined to me as kind of like, overstepping, or like, being interrupted a little bit. And having to be put in his place and, and in his words, but and the benefits of that. Yeah. Because he, he kind of talked about it as a positive, you know, yeah. So, yeah, I'll read you this text, and maybe we'll finish with this.

Shandin Pete: 1:14:20

Let's do it. I want to hear it or do you

Aaron Brien: 1:14:23

know, he sent me this text and he says, So, my, my, we were kind of talking about this non Indian involvement ceremony. So he says, Yeah, as a non Indian, I noticed that it is really important to recognize that my own curiosity about doings can be interruptive when I really just want to support what's happening, sometimes one of these distances words bargin and they need to and they need to just just learn where the line is. But afterwards, it's really on them to figure out how to participate without being intrusive. Mm hmm. Then he goes on to say the spiritually bankrupt are shopping for a new religion. And this affects everyone who sees these people as role models. So, he was kind of talking about these non Indian folk who get involved in almost become kind of like gurus. These gurus kind of go betweens. Yeah. Yeah. So, and you actually, I know, we'll talk about this more next time you actually had had to mitigate some of this before. Were you there? Was it because of your own involvement and your your tribe stuff where you guys said, Hey, we got going to re assess what's going on here. Yeah, because of outside involvement. Yeah. And I know of other tribes, you've had to do that to the crows are about 1020 years behind everybody. Because just because of the nature and the steps of culture loss, like we're kind of going through this, like, we're just we're still doing that. Hey, thanks for coming kind of thing. You know.

Shandin Pete: 1:16:21

That's interesting. It's interesting. That wave in where it misses certain places, eventually starting to catch up. Yeah. Anyway. Let's call it there, man. This was a good one. The music thing. It's always unexpected. But yeah, I like to hear it. Like,

Aaron Brien: 1:16:44

you know, what I think it is, is because we know it.

Shandin Pete: 1:16:48

Yeah. Yeah. How interesting. Is it to other people? I don't know.

Aaron Brien: 1:16:54

But hey, man, people. I think people listen to this podcast to get a sense of what Indian people like to talk about. What we think people should like to talk about, this is what I like.

Shandin Pete: 1:17:05

Yeah. No,

Aaron Brien: 1:17:07

no, to be an Indian,

Shandin Pete: 1:17:10

educational to hear different, like three, three things that sounded probably the maybe same to them, but as to kind of break it apart

Aaron Brien: 1:17:17

at the beginning of the next podcast. Let's do that. Let's run, run, run some contempt ones through.

Shandin Pete: 1:17:26

That's gonna be a fun one. All right, then. Mountain mountain. It's over. All right. Thank you for tuning in. I want to take some time to thank some of our Patreon sponsors. We've got Emma Lafave. Ryan Swanson, Mars, Xena, had J. Rachel holster, Todd Davis, Louise Erdrich, Jason Freon. And Mary Bobbitt. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for your continued contribution to help keep the show on the air and also want to take time to thank some of our past sponsors we've had any Oeste pitching in Thank you, thank you for your donation. And also, Brian carpenter additional thank you for pitching in and helping the show stay on the air