#35 - Do We Still Need Each Other?: Shifting norms of responsibility and ownership

In this episode, the TRS team discusses many topics centering on emerging social structure in Native families. In Part I, the conversation emerges from a discussion on family names while shifting to the phenomenon of the "keeper". Importantly, the issue of cultural responsibilities resting on the knowledge of a single individuals creates potentially problematic issues with cultural transmission. In addition, superstitious are touched on as a source of ambiguity in relation to cultural understandings.

In Part II, the team continues by exploring how the idea of sovereignty operates in Indian Country. The  team takes the discussion of sovereignty from the angle of Treaties and how these mixing of legal traditions have potentially skewed person-to-person relationships and further person-to-landscape relationships and traditions. The important questions is raised asking "Are people more important that the land?" This simplified look does not take into consideration the complexities involved in all matters of history and relationship but explores how our need to maintain tribal connections in the past may have been stronger than present day.

Stay listening near the end to hear Shandin's Southern inspired TRS commercial and Aaron's Blood Tribe inspired promo. Also introduced is TRS Quick Topics!
 
Hosts: Aaron Brien (Apsáalooke), Shandin Pete (Salish/Diné)

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Transcript

Shandin Pete: 0:37

Hello and welcome to tribal research specialist the podcast where we will be talking about important things Hello and welcome to tribal research specialist the podcast a podcast dedicated to chatting about Hello and welcome to when I first was working with all them reel to reels ahead, I had to blocks or add one of the reel to reels I'm pretty sure was a bunch of crow songs. And I think I showed you one time years and years and years ago and he said oh yeah, those are I can never find it again. I think it was a was it said like war dance songs on it or something? No, it didn't say nothing. It was it was one that didn't have a label at all. Not that this sounds like a bunch of crows singing had that kind of just a bunch of crows.

Aaron Brien: 2:00

You're like I know that crispy sound anywhere.

Shandin Pete: 2:04

Well, well, that's debatable. But who was really crispy? You I don't know. I don't know if I qualify. Crisp. Crisp. Crisp as crisp as um I don't know. It's like when you slicer. head of lettuce in half. It's got to be fresh, man. That'd be fresh. Yeah, so who's a fresh singer? Yeah, that's what I think Chris hears that you're here. I heard this lead one time and it's memorable. It was on a tape from the older school Metzen days. Mm hmm. I don't know who it was I don't remember at all but whoever it was they busted out a lead and it sound like they're whistling it wasn't necessarily high it just the the pitch you know, the tone that sound like the lead was of this really long beautiful whistle and poetic was man that was called out to all the birds of prey to swoon about Arbor the peregrine falcon the Paragon shat upon the drum blessing it with its organic infused with poetry in motion. Infusing, infusing the hide.

Aaron Brien: 3:38

Yeah, when I think so. It's opposite. Vegetables in singers are opposite. Meaning vegetables are only fresh one time. Oh, yeah. So you use them once. That's it. Right where it's opposite for a singer a singer is only sounding crispy.

Shandin Pete: 3:58

If he's used all the time, right, right, like the like the potato. Much like the potato. You can you can take a potato and with your hands busted in half and has a nice crisp, crisp snap. But it's a versatile vegetable can be used in many varieties not sure what you mean. Yeah. Yeah, you'll kill you only can use it once. Now you talk about a nice dry piece of meat. dry, dry meat season just right season. It stores for a long time. It stores for a long time. And you eat it. Are you prepared? 10 years ago you might still be good today. pushing her and oh yes, this is this is getting very metaphorical again. Are we started Yeah, okay. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. We're just kind of winging it. Yeah. winging it. So

Aaron Brien: 5:08

I got a couple things going here that are mine. One is I open up the old Excel spreadsheet Excel to do a formula merge sort. No, did a sound just No, no, I didn't use it mathematically and organizationally, not using it to cross multiply and solve for x. No, no, no, no, this is purely ethnographic. Okay, let's go. So I started with my father than my mother and goes through me and my brothers and sisters and then their kids. Oh, it's so you're so you're talking about genealogy, genealogy genealogical use of Excel spreadsheets today's subject in today's episode, we're gonna talk about how you use a pivot table to build your family tree first of all open up Excel you know, it's funny somebody would actually be like, Dude, that's actually would be useful you sound so amusing. I my title sales or English name? There, crow clan. Wait, now you said your title sells. Well, I'm filling in the sales you know? Because the way you say sell with the crow variant sounds odd. Like it's a sale? Sale. Sale sell Sell? Sell. We're gonna get you simulated Danone. Do you see it like a flathead you put a glottal stop at the end of it? Sell? Sell that upside down question mark. You just put Okay, anyway, so I got the English name, their clan, their Chrome name, the English literal translation, and then the individual gave the name. Okay, so I'm up to let's see, there's 56789 1011 1213 1415 individuals. And I'm filling in each each of those fields. Dude, don't laugh at me. I'm like, I'm falling. I'm just okay. I'm okay. Keep going. So for example, in my father right here, Eric, Bryn is crow clan is he's a big large and he's a child of the width saline water is crow name is ba churlish, which literally means fortunate. Okay. And the person who named him is Verna Verdun, the ground peas. Okay, so Alanya my goal here is to get all of my mother's siblings and their kids. And then all of my father's siblings and their kids. Okay. And the reason I'm saying that English literal translation. Yeah. Is in case the person doesn't know how to say it. In a Crow language. Yeah. You would teach them at least how you would say it literally. And the crow, so? Yeah, so if you teach someone like Louella is boy Jacob, his crew name is Ichigo Jia to Governor. Yeah, now we teach him when they gave him that name. They always they say they say gathers up his enemies. Well, literally what it means is halls his enemies is Paul has to haul so yeah, so if you wonder Lowood Yep. If you were to go to across the speakers and say, How do you say to get a haul or something? Or, you know, collect pickup. So easier to translate? Nah, yeah. To go nah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Got it. How's that? Yeah, okay, good. Good. So no, so what I'm saying is well, that's what I'm doing now. That's like my project that's visiting. It's not related to my work necessarily, not directly but I've been very into like names that's always been a pet project of mine for quite some time but yeah, but what's the what's the new Orson or soccer fee that people have? I like it. So.

Shandin Pete: 9:49

So yeah, what's what I'm going by as the language Conservancy, orthography Yes. This is okay. That's, that's cool, man. I'm into that. I'm into that too. And I don't know you laughed at me. Oh no, I was gonna I was gonna point out some more beer here beer crow Annunciation of words like field field would I put? filled? I might say field field. But as you say naturally you said filled, filled like the field to play the field. Yeah. But you split the way you said it naturally without thinking about you said filled sales field sale still sell? Yeah, I Yeah, I hear it all the time because solutia does the same thing. So like like Wolf, you say Wolf, Wolf? Yeah, it sounds when you said naturally. Here it said yeah, I guess Yes. Like school. Yeah, school Wolf. Yeah. Milk. Milk. Yeah, milk. There was one very, there's I was teaching my, one of my classes. And what was that? What was I saying? There was a word in it sounds very American. Now that I've been introduced to new dialect of English speaking. I can't remember the word now. Gotta remember it later. And I'll tell you, it sounds really funny, though. When I was saying it, but no. Okay, this thing, okay. Genealogy excels. Probably minor part of that, but funny. Because it just is. But, um, this. Okay, so I've been tracking population of CS K T for probably a good, I don't know, 12 years or so. And went back into the historical record and tracked the population from what was reported wherever I could find it. And the reason? Well, one of the reasons was just to see the trend, you know, the trend of population. But it was also this some report that was compiled, so that the tribe, the tribe paid for this report, population report, to get an understanding of when membership might decline based on the current blood quantum standards. And the timing of his reported, I can't remember the date, it was maybe in the 90s. But he projected by this time, or I guess the time has already passed by that by 2015, or whatever, that the population would have declined. It hasn't. It didn't according to his prediction, but it is formula. What was the Yeah, this now this is the one this is the one this this is what may be interested in is is I bet his standard for population modeling was not necessarily fitting with the standard of interpersonal relationships among tribes now, and I thought, wow, yeah, maybe not. But with through the stages of assimilation that everybody's gone through, people probably don't necessarily follow those rules much anymore. I don't think I think they do. So for example, among our people, anybody up to the sixth generation is considered a relative of some sorts, up to the fourth, you call them by brother sister terms, fifth and sixth, they're just distant relative, but you're not supposed to marry those folks. You're not supposed to. But if you go by, say, the church, the church rules or the, you know, the Anglo Saxon, Anglo Saxon, what is that? Is that like? That? That some Martha King of Thrones, the Anglo Saxons, that's

Aaron Brien: 13:56

two different groups of people. Okay. Anglo Saxon. I think it's from there from Saxony, right or something. Maybe we got like a European scholar that could chime in. Yeah,

Shandin Pete: 14:07

we gotta get one on talk. But anyway, that standard is you can marry beyond a second cousin. So I thought I saw I thought, I bet I bet this guy modeled using that standard. I wouldn't, I wouldn't think that he would No,

Aaron Brien: 14:25

actually. Okay, correct me if I'm wrong. If he's using that model. Yeah. Then his decline in in the in the enrollment population, would be his theory would have been opposite meaning or saying that the the, the decline would have happened much sooner.

Shandin Pete: 14:48

Yeah. Okay. No, you're right. You're right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And that and that's, that's what he predicted. And that's not what happened. The decline is happening now. Which is 10 years. Beyond his prediction, I think, oh, yeah, so that's what happened. But there was a cup could just be

Aaron Brien: 15:05

I wonder what the margin of error is on something like that, though, you know, it was 10 years. It seems pretty.

Shandin Pete: 15:11

Yeah. Yeah. There was a couple factors, though. There's so there was, like recent blood quantum changes in certain families. So, like correction of errors, those kind of things happened, especially for like a, an individual who had a large family that was from, you know, the early 1900s. So that changed we talked about Jocko Finley. Yeah, that's, that's one of them. Yeah, that's one of them. That's changed a lot of blood quantum. Put people put people on the rolls and increased the membership. Yeah. But right now it's on a decline. But that's interesting. What that you're talking about that? Because part of that part of that. Part of that being, I guess, a tribal group, and the importance of knowing those names, I think has been, it's been lost. And I think we did we talked about this before.

Aaron Brien: 16:08

We I think we've talked about names. And yeah, I don't remember us talking about on the podcast.

Shandin Pete: 16:15

That's pretty important. And what I had to, I was in some workshop, and I had to describe what my name is, you know, Bob, my name, you know, one of those icebreaker things, you know, and I'd say, Yeah, Pete is, is given by a bi agent has doesn't have much of a meaning except a marker in time and history. And I was speaking to a student recently, they were talking about their, their name this Oh, yeah, I really like color, the name some of the names in America. The natives in America have such cool names, you know, like, you know, Thunder Hawker, or, I don't know, ride shuttle or hawk. Hawk, Thunder. Doc thunder, yeah, those kinds of things. And I said, Well, why don't just go change your name. You can do that. Just revert back to your old name. And

Aaron Brien: 17:10

yeah, I mean, you're right. You're right, in theory, but still, it's the so you got all these native people who say, Well, I'm going to change my name to my Indian last name. Yeah. Right on. But that's still following the surname system. Right, right. Still, I mean, you could have your last name could be Volkswagen Beetle. It's still like, I mean, I get it. It's I think it does give people a sense of empowerment. Yeah. Maybe our sense of identity Like recently I had a relative change their last name and they picked the name of a name someone and when I thought they should have picked the name of somebody else. Yeah. But then after I was kind of they should have picked up I did I thought who the hell cares? I mean, like, if that's the name they want to pick then go for it. You know? Yeah. And well, I'm curious does that so did that did they? Did they make that name change stick or was it just symbolic? No, they like what got their name legally changed. And that just the last name? No, just the last name. Okay. They still have a Christian first name. Yeah, English first name. English. I was gonna say I don't know if Kenneth is that's more Presbyterians. You know, it's very biblical. Everyone knows about the 13th apostle. Yeah, he was actually a Turkish immigrant. Tribal King David Lynch by lineal descendants worked at the woollen mill. He worked at the old woollen mill. Yeah, Galilee. He was there at the Galilee Merc. Hey, okay, good. What do you think of the name so which Rez I think of the raises that you know here in Montana, who by no other raises, well, okay, think of Okay. We have no boundaries. Think of the raises that you're familiar with. And where do you hear the name? Kirby for a native person for a last name. No first name, ma'am. Kirby. Where do you picture a Kirby? Man? What do I picture them? Yeah. I'm gonna say Minnesota. But I'm only saying that because of Kirby Puckett who played for the Minnesota. Native people. Come on. Which rares has a Kirby. I mean, I keep thinking a Kirby saloon. No More than Cheyenne? I don't know. I don't know. It's just a dumb question. Oh, here's another question. We're talking about names. Have you ever met an old man named Kyle? No. There's one Kyle's that's Have you ever seen an old redhead? Oh? Because even Ron Howard went bald. Hmm. I think so. Yeah. Happy days. So if you got a red headed Kyle, chances are they're not gonna make it. If you got to read she got there's a unicorn that's interesting. I'm trying to think about it. I don't know if I've ever met a older person with a red hair. Yeah, nor have I met an old Kyle.

Shandin Pete: 21:00

I think of a Kirby as someone who lives in Fort Belknap for some reason. Like I could see a person named Kirby for Belknap.

Aaron Brien: 21:09

Yeah, maybe, I guess. Yeah. Kirby Kirby, Chandler Kirby bell curves. Everyone. lives down there. The agency lives between Right, right out in the in the canyon Canyon. You got to talk like give like the Kenyan. Yeah. The Kenyan. Like, you know what you're talking about? Yeah. Which we don't, but Okay, so I spend on my pet project tears, is I decided I'm going to do that. What I'm noticing this trend among Indian people in Yeah, Montana's and I think this is just a product of culture losses. We each family relies too much on one individual. Yeah, yeah. So like you have your family patriarch or matriarch? And you're always anytime you have question you're like, we got to go to them. Never put in respect cultural responsibility on the individual themselves. So yeah, by for all your cultural knowledge for all your needs for so for example, I got a phone call yesterday, there was a dead hour. At the big buildings. Yeah, we don't know what to do with now. everyone's freaking out. So I go there, and I just say, well, we'll just take it, we will put it in a river. So yeah, but I wasn't shaken up about it. Like I didn't come home and go God bless America. Yeah, and I tried to tell them, I said, Well, if this happens to you again, this is what you do. And it was the attitude I was getting back was that they didn't didn't want to just just get the oil and get it out of here. Do your job. So I'm like wait, this is weird. Like don't you want to be self sufficient? Like culturally self sufficient? Yeah. Yeah. And it's like what if you have kids in what if you have a home or in something like this happens? Are you going to stop everything and have to go get some old guy or some old lady and come over and make them bury the pudding? And you know like, are you gonna have enough know how and enough skill and cultural knowledge to take care of the issue immediately? Yeah, are we it's if there is an issue Yeah, Bada bing bada boom and then like I was texting microphone boys about it because I was like, What do you think and then he said you know sometimes I was just die Yeah, yeah, I know dude, like I agree with you like we can just assume every time something weird happens that it's negative or that yeah, sign Have you noticed like a common trend among Indian people right now especially in our region here is like a high level of paranoia Yeah, in a way Yeah. Yeah. For certain things for certain things that I was that I was one of them is persisted through due to our was shut up place down it will it will but some of these same people will go to the bar throwback do fireball shots, you know. And then they're like, freaking me out I don't know if that's your should be your biggest worry. I mean, not if they want to drink that third thing, but I don't drink but I just don't think like, like you can. You can say Why are you whistling at night? Yeah, I'm like, Should we just got home from the bar? Why? Like, that's not that's not even like, it's the same. It's like, I mean, if we're that worried about the spiritual world, we wouldn't invite things that can hinder our protections. You know, pray pray, right. Drugs, alcohol, jealousy, even fighting in your home. Right and your wife are going around. You know, like, there's a lot of thing too much screen time. Too much screen that screen time. spending too much time on Tik Tok. Dad god awful screen time. You know, I went through the Instagram stage. I went through to Snapchat stage. Yeah, man. I'm gonna tell you some tic TOCs got me, man. Some funny stuff on there. That is that's a hard thing to put down. It is it is. I mean, like, you can just keep going. You can just keep going. Yeah, this is just

Shandin Pete: 25:59

this barrage of funny, like get peppered with funny. It's nonstop comedy. It is. Yeah, somebody somebody told me today. And this was pretty intriguing. This is along the lines. What you saying? They sit throughout history. This was a guy I just met from Uruguay. We were talking. We were talking, you know, colonization or whatever. Yeah, all that stuff is talking about what you don't want to say it too loud. The seabird in front of Aaron. Anyway. It worked. You get worked up. Anyway. So and then he said, you know, all these these religions that come through and all these dictatorships that they they all tried to influence and make people bend to the will of some certain thing he said, but the one that's been the most successful, and he held up his phone, this thing? This thing? I'd have

Aaron Brien: 26:54

to agree with that. Yeah, it's the most successful in the shortest amount of time. Oh, yeah. I don't know if it dethroned. The question. Yeah. earch. Yeah. In the influence of the Christian church, because, I mean, whether that's good or bad, we're just talking about Indians. Yeah. But in the shortest amount of time. Yeah, man. Yeah, it has an Indian Country A dethroned van. It dethrone the horse. The phone? Yeah. What the most influential thing on our culture was the heart is pretty well, by then, I mean, the conveniences of the the horse change everything. Yeah. Yeah. Horse change everything. Everything, but you think the phone dethrone the horse? I think so. As far as how influential it is on our

Shandin Pete: 27:47

culture. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. I'd say yeah, one of recent. That's just disclaimer that I'm gonna go back. I'm gonna go back. I'm gonna go back. Okay, go back. Because that's, it's getting boring. Now. I'm gonna go back to this idea of, you're talking about this one person who's been given the responsibility to carry the weight of. Yep. cultural ideas. That's that, I think, where does that come from? Because you hear you hear the same thing? Like the song keeper, the one who keeps the songs. And I think what? I don't know, I mean, I don't think that was ever really a thing.

Aaron Brien: 28:28

Or like when nowadays is true popular say knowledge keeper. The knowledge keeper, the song keeper, the drum keeper, the keeper of the jewel when you said song keeper. I'm thinking of one individual from where you're from

Shandin Pete: 28:42

that told me that one time. Yeah. I just remember that conversation. Yeah, 15 years ago, and it was like, I'm wondering, where does that come from? What is that? Because I don't think it's nothing that's rooted in it. Not necessarily in tradition? I don't know. I'm sure there was some things like a person who kept a certain maybe like a pipe or some spiritual item.

Aaron Brien: 29:09

So like, you have rights, right? Someone who holds the office of something. Yeah. Now maybe some of that is influenced by we always go back to the square Stan society where there are offices, and people hold titles like the muscle owner, the whip carrier. Yeah. And and whether or not that was rooted deeply in anybody's in reservation, but I tried, but those offices are there. So in the case of like, Oh, we're the song keeper. I mean, maybe I can kind of see that in that. Yeah. This idea of, yeah, he's this and he's that but, um, yeah. And it. I think it's definitely influenced by, like, in I don't wanna say English, but that's something to think of.

Shandin Pete: 29:55

Yeah. Well, I know it was, like an early What the mid 1800s When the Catholic church first came to come on Tanna here, one of their ways to assimilate was was to do just that, like create offices, like these religious offices. So the degs designate some older lady to hold the office of whatever for this religious purpose. And that was one of the ways that they, I think they used our someone like our idea of vanity in a way to capture some of our attention. And people would vie for those positions. Like I want to be that I want to be what that is right there. So I think in a way that idea persisted, I don't know for sure, but you see the same thing like, oh, I want to I want a story. So I'm going to see I'm going to go find the person who's the keeper of the stories or, you know, the the storyteller, the sage who will show up and tell stories to the kids, but I don't know if that's exactly accurate.

Aaron Brien: 31:05

Okay, so at this time, I want to give a special shout out to our Patreon sponsors. Louise URJ. Rich, Travis Davis. Rachel holster. Mar Zaina, Ryan Swanson, and Emma le flavor. Thank you for your continued contribution to the show. And for helping us to stay on the air No, I in maybe it's not completely inaccurate. Yeah, but it's not. It's romanticized. It's true. It Yeah, it's me. I freakin had a brain fart right there. I don't know the next word. I'm supposed to say.

Shandin Pete: 31:54

You lost the script. I know. Man down line. So So yeah, so um, I guess in that way, you know, there probably was people who are better at telling stories. You know, they could tell them in a more entertaining way, I guess. And I guess in that same regard, maybe there was folks who are better at remembering certain songs.

Aaron Brien: 32:17

Maybe I think I think that's just more like, like, talents. Yeah. My grandmother talks fondly of a time where, and people some people still do this. So I'm not gonna say it's gone. But yeah. Like you could have company over and he shared a meal. And then you might start telling stories. Yeah, and you'll learn a lot from those stories. But that's very different than having a story telling which rat you actually they say to make Barry pudding and bread. And, and then you might have coffee nowadays, but I'm sure it's tea or water back in the day. But you would invite somebody, you would feed them. And then they would tell stories. The sole purpose was to bring an outside individual to tell stories. Yeah. Maybe some of that comes from that. So like if I'm, if I'm a little kid, and I witnessed this, I might attach a meaning to that individual. Yeah. And with a culture that's dying off, maybe you can have people say when when I was a kid, they would invite this person. Right? And just by default, that person was the one that knew things, but now that becomes a thing now while when I was a kid, the old timers Yeah. would invite so and so. Oh, yeah. Louis nine pipe would come over. Yeah. What's it doesn't mean that he had any more or any less knowledge than other people for for him. It was by default, he was counting the numbers. We're doing delay. Right. So now people are age say, Oh, well, we had a he's that blue. He was the early guy. Yeah. Now it's Johnny or whatever. You know what I mean? But yeah, you're catching you're attaching a thing to

Shandin Pete: 34:08

it? Yeah, me nondegree. Right. And and I think it has really speculation. It has some some merit to it. But I think the, the bigger or I think the thing that's probably more important is that we we get lazy I guess and start relying on someone to do something that really is is a maybe more of a communal or a community responsibility. Like you said, you got to call somebody to go come down from whatever they're doing to take care of a dead animal because of some taboo that maybe is been mis mis misappropriated in some way, not fully understood, fully understood. whereas, whereas it should have been a number of people who, who should understand who could take care of that so that the designation of those kind of things is spread out, and then the burden is spread out amongst everybody. Yeah, and I'm not saying what, even what was asked

Aaron Brien: 35:18

of me is wrong. I think it was the appropriate thing to do. Yeah. But it was funny how I was like, well, here, I'll show you what you could do. Then. Once that was said, then it was like, no, no, you know? Yeah, it

Shandin Pete: 35:31

was like, Okay. Well, then at that point, it's like on you, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting, because this is something I've been thinking about. And it's along the lines of just that is, and I don't know, it kind of goes against what I what I was thinking in relation to what you're saying.

Aaron Brien: 35:52

That perked right up? I like that. I like a little dissension in the ranks.

Shandin Pete: 35:59

Yeah. Get some art? Well, no, this. So this, this was my thought about a couple of weeks ago or a week ago, I was thinking about this term about sovereignty. And native, you know, in relation to indigenous folks and their sovereignty, that sovereignty. That sovereignty is, is I guess, you could say, comes from treaties, comes from treaties. In a way that in the way that we're we speaking of it, so we have sovereignty in the United States, in a way because of this treaties we signed that provide, I don't know certain rights. I don't know if that's totally true. But that's kind of the way I think about sovereignty, sovereignty guaranteed, because of this treaty, so we can act and in an affair that did reserved in the existing right, reserve. Okay, I like that better. Okay. And I reserved an existing right. But then it entangles that existing right into some odd legal authority, whether it's the United States Canada, into that the norm of that legal system, the norms of that legal system, that gets complicated, and then it starts to get very complicated.

Aaron Brien: 37:16

Because now then you get into the interpretation of that legal right. Have that inherent right. Yeah. Yeah. Is interpretation. And precedent two are two different things. The precedent of that, right. So the way the American legal system really works is law says one thing, but law in action says another thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. How does it how is it presided over? That's a whole different thing. So you can say, we have these, right. For example, the Herrera case, reserved a huntin right, based on this language in the treaty. Yeah. In theory, if that document was all telling in the supreme contract of the world, it would have never had to have gone to the Supreme Court. Yeah. Yeah. The idea that there was it was questioned. Yeah. We had to wait for precedent to be set. Yes. challenged. So laws only. It seems to me, that law is only as strong as the challenge that is

Shandin Pete: 38:19

faced. Yes. Agreed. Agreed. Okay. So going back to what you're saying? Yeah. Oh, go. Okay. So there's that. And so, so this, this goes back to something. Why? Okay, so the history of is I did this panel on indigenous astronomy, and one of the controversies that was talked about was the telescope's on indigenous lands. And how indigenous folks, whether they want them or not, was not, was not considered in the equation. Because some folks say, well, that land is indigenous land. Well, we're familiar with the, you know, the hashtag land back and the memes and the beadwork everything land back, you know. But yeah, I've tried to bring up this, this interesting angle that well i in from what I understand, we never really did claim ownership of land. That, I guess is in the norm of American or Canadian traditions. Right? So what basically what I'm saying is, we didn't go fight a battle with our enemies and then put up a fence and saying, We won. Now this is our land, we own this land, and you shall never reside on it. You shall never put up anything, any structure on it, because now we own this land. As the odd odd concept, it seems to me if we're examining traditions from, you know, our values and those kind of things. So that I thought, well, yeah, that's that's all good and dandy, I suppose in theory, but I think that really rests on this idea that that people were far more important. Well, I guess I shouldn't say far more important, but were one of the most important things in a tribal group. Like that idea of banding together. I mean, land was there is provided for provided for us. But you know, we're fairly. I don't know moved around where we needed to be based on our personal needs. But the need to be amongst a group of people I think, was far more important than the landscape itself. I don't know if that's true. But that was my thought. That was my thought, Hmm. That people are one notch ahead of the landscape. In those times in those times, we needed each other to survive. But that's when the land was fairly plentiful. You know, and, in a way, based on

Aaron Brien: 40:58

what you're saying, though, you're still separating humanity from landscape, though.

Shandin Pete: 41:02

Well, okay. Yeah, you're right. You're right. You're right. Right. Okay. So, yeah, I mean, assuming that they're not separated, like putting things on a hierarchy of, of need, I guess you could say, so someone would choose to go with their tribal group if they were migrating to somewhere else. Rather than stay on a landscape because they felt they were connected. They're like, No, I will not leave. I will stay here alone. You guys go off. wherever you're going. I'm gonna stay here in my land, this land that I'm attached to.

Aaron Brien: 41:39

Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. I think in that case, yeah, you're right. Yeah. The need to be with people outweighs the need to be with that landscape. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Is

Shandin Pete: 41:51

that what you're saying? Yeah, in a very simplified, simplified manner. I mean, it's far more complex than that. But saying that that need to be no is it? I don't know. That's it. I don't know. Because there's,

Aaron Brien: 42:05

there's this did I don't know this sidebar, sidebar, it? I bar reserved that sidebar, sidebar. But we don't have to subscribe to things we're told we have to believe like, yeah, we're told we have to be one mother earth. So sometimes there's people afraid to say like, is it possible that there was some separation? Or we're told that all the time we were in tune with the earth? Maybe we weren't?

Shandin Pete: 42:38

Yeah. Okay. Back? Well, okay. Well, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's true. So back, so yeah. So I think about that today. If that's true, I don't know if it is or not, it seems to be true. If you think about people are need. I'm sure we would choose our family over a river we choose. But that's that's really weighing some really weird things like saying, Yeah, of course, I choose my child over a mountain. That's dumb. That's

Aaron Brien: 43:05

visualizes the thought, though. So again, that person, would that even arise? Yeah. Would it or would it? I don't know. It's hard to say. So for example, if we're gonna move cap, yeah, those decisions aren't made arbitrarily. These were not trivial pursuits.

Shandin Pete: 43:32

That so there wasn't a monopoly? No decision making? Yeah, no. In fact, it was quite the chess match among leaders. Leaders would levy propositions and advisement to each other. I'll send a reference games. I didn't know if you seen that in there. Oh, just blew it. Chutes and

Aaron Brien: 43:53

Ladders. If we were to connect for to make these decisions,

Shandin Pete: 44:01

the calculated risk. You're playing poker with lives? Yeah, it is. So my point after all that, I don't know how is your I don't know if it's true. I don't know if it's true. I think it is. What was the question? This is the question. Let's rephrase the question. So what there was really no question it was a such a train of thought that's leading to this idea that today, we don't need each other. Indigenous people, especially tribal group, we don't need each other like we did in the past. That's true. That's that has to be true. Right? Um, no, you don't think so?

Aaron Brien: 44:40

I don't think so. And the only reason I'm gonna say this is because all you do is reassign your tribal group to something else. Okay. So you might say, What a perfect example You left early. Yeah, you don't go to this new location and say, now we're just us and Miss room? Yeah, you immediately start to distribute need to grow to the to a brim. Right, whether that's people you work with whether that students, but there's need still, whether it's the grocer down the road, whether it is you still need the group, you just changed the title

Shandin Pete: 45:19

of that group. Okay. I see that dumb was No, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's not. Because that's that's like that's, that's confirming that the need the human need to be around other humans. For what purpose though? So if you think about the old days, the old days, oh, you needed each other for protection? For I don't know, hunting, you know, just banding together for hunting, hunting and gathering the old way. But today, I think it's easy to cast off to cast OA members and our of our own people, just because we don't like them. Just because we well, the need to keep some sort of sort of social order is not as strong as it was

Aaron Brien: 46:13

it or is it just redefined?

Shandin Pete: 46:16

I don't know. I want to know, I want to know if it is so we can go out we can go off because this is our this is our like gossip and lying. backstabbing was really curbed because there was this, I think, I think there was this need to keep some some sort of peace among, among people that you you relied on, or something for some reason. are deeper actually pretty lost right now. And I was trying to like, okay, connect the dots. I went. So the main point was, I think, and then you're here proving me wrong, which is good. Because I, I was holding this belief for a few weeks, like, Okay, we don't really need each other as tribal people. So Salish people, Crow people don't we can just we can say this guy. I don't like him no more. So I don't even care about him. So I don't care what he can contribute to anything anymore. Let's cast him away.

Aaron Brien: 47:15

Let's question this then. Okay. What was tribal identity? 300 years ago? Yeah, we because I know for a fact crow. People had wives from other tribes. Yeah. Did they see? Did they say we are all Crow Indians are? Or was it just a functioning society that had insiders, outsiders, visitors. And in and like, remember, we talked about this once? About, like, how we do these kind of people learn these phrases now? Like, they're in their language? My name is such influence. I'm just kind of Indian bow. I'm from this place. Yeah. It's like, did they really do that? Or was it Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know, I don't really know what I'm getting at here. But I think it was never stagnant. It was always changing. It was always being challenged. And all all it is now is that it's the same thing. But the tools are different. The mechanisms are different. And the outcomes are different. But it's the same old question is, I mean, who we are and how to how'd we get here? You know? Because, okay, think of it this way. I'm a crow. Indian. You're a sailor. Yeah. But when it comes to my tribe, my inner circle my the people I rely on for yes, you're you're definitely one of them. You're not, you're not of my tribe, you know? Yeah.

Shandin Pete: 48:41

So you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I don't know what you mean. Yeah, there's, it's overlapping. There's overlapping groups of people that you rely on for for whatever human need you have. It's not it's not specific tribally today. I don't know if it was in the past. I'm sure there was a lot of things going on. But we hold this idea that it was just like this one little amoeba of people kind of poking around the landscape and in their little bubble, you know, and I think that's where that idea comes from. Is that okay? We don't need people as much anymore as we do. So then that little amoeba of people is easily more easily broken. But what you're saying is that not I don't think that was necessarily true. But I don't know also know you said it so. Yeah, it's I mean,

Aaron Brien: 49:39

I don't know in here's where we put our reminder. I have no idea what I'm talking about. Or what I'm talking about apparently, man I don't know that's that's a tough question, because now I'm starting to guess second guess even everything I just told you.

Shandin Pete: 49:55

Um, no, I think it makes sense in because I was thinking about it for Far too simplistically, I was thinking of like a really isolated group of people who were once we're in the in the past, they relied on each other very heavily for their, you know, human social needs for protection, food, whatever, you know, whatever it was, and and those old times. But it's not the same today, because we don't need. We don't need to go ask Joe for help. Or Joe and Jim and John unless to go to owns the grocery store. Yeah, that was my point unless they own a grocery. So now we can go get food. We don't even know where it comes from. We don't know who packaged it, cut it up, put it in a box. We haven't we have no, we have no idea. So we don't need to know that person no more. But you still need to have that person. But what what yeah, we're still in a way that there's some there's some need, that still needs to be fulfilled. I don't know what it is. And in a way that individual

Aaron Brien: 50:57

might change. But the role has to stay the same regardless of what era you came in. Those people who provide services, you need to be there regardless, even if you were living by yourself, and you're like, I'm never gonna go anywhere. And I'm just gonna read or write my manifesto. I mean, you still need someone to bring you groceries you still need so there's still the need. The basic needs are still there. Yes. redefined. Anthropology, there used to be a big theory called the competition of resources. Okay. Regardless of era in time, yeah, needs, the resource can be redefined. But the motive is always competition of resources. So whether that's whether that's more people to gather more food, or that's collecting likes to get revenue on social media views, it's a resource. Yeah. The Christian Church and the collection of souls. And yeah, whether that's whether that's a tribal people, and it's repurchase the purchasing of land or whatever, yeah, competition of resources, always been a driving force. It's just up to you and your situation to know what those resources are? And then how do you make your network to compete for those resources?

Shandin Pete: 52:18

Interesting. Was that nonsense? No, it wasn't No, I think it's right online. I'm just thinking of it as Yes, true. I do need the the grocery store and those who work in it, and whoever imports all that food and the farmer who packages it? Or I mean,

Aaron Brien: 52:38

what are you using intimacy to like, how well do you know these people? Yeah,

Shandin Pete: 52:43

that's, that's, that's what I mean. I don't I don't necessarily need to have a relationship with those people. To to survive anymore. The IRS is not as aware as in a smaller group, tribal group. You, but just by way of the nature of the living that you did, you knew people and you knew them. And you. You did those activities with them to do that. Great. Yeah. But the market systems change everything. goods and services. Yeah. So today, native people today. And we never knew that other system. Anybody alive today didn't really know that system. Well, I guess there's some older folks who lived in a time in a time where they did kind of get a hint of that. But today, no, no, we don't. We don't need to go get a hunting party to go get some chicken strips.

Aaron Brien: 53:40

We just go get chicken strips. I just pick up your bro is pick up, bro. Go get chicken strips. Yeah, and that's it. And I feel like we're out of our wheelhouse to this. And

Shandin Pete: 53:52

I was just thinking about that. And sovereignty and all that business. And then really, what is it? What is the sovereignty business? I don't know. I'm not. I don't know. It's not my thing. I think about

Aaron Brien: 54:06

it, but they this is where we could have Danna, come on. We are. He worked in tribal government works with a BA now I think he would have some interesting views on what sovereignty is on a real practical level. Yeah. All right. So that's the problem with academics is like academics tend to stay in a theoretical framework. Yeah, it's like what is sovereignty? Wow. Shout out.

Shandin Pete: 54:31

Give me that book. Garbage settle down vine. Yeah, that's yeah, let's let's keep it real here. Can we do that? How not to do that we ought to do that. So yeah, that was my thought. It was long and drawn out when we need to win and I interrupted a lot and I'm doing it again. So that's alright man. We need we need someone on to maybe make some clarifications. that'd be good man. I'm into it. I'm into it. I want to explore it more.

Aaron Brien: 55:06

Let's do this. You get tired man. So how about this? Okay, how about if you had to do a commercial? Yeah, podcast what would you say right now? Do I do I do it in your best? Okay, here it is. Do it in a southern accent, but use resi phrases and talk Okay,

Shandin Pete: 55:32

let's try to get some okie on here.

Aaron Brien: 55:35

Yeah yeah, yeah let's try it okay

Shandin Pete: 55:40

oh man I know I can what Patty oh this is this is Kirby from Lawn we're just here down at the 49 and we just want to tell you about a great program called Travel tribal research specialist It ain't like your your standard southern singing group but they do talk about cool stuff I don't know man I don't know I want to hear yours

Aaron Brien: 56:26

yeah you have to know this is the this is the color meats athlete in you because you're like I don't want to do it as soon as I did it you're like I'm gonna try to do it when

Shandin Pete: 56:45

I heard the whistle go I shook hands and I went for a

Aaron Brien: 56:54

shot you shot

Shandin Pete: 56:59

all right, you're like I'm not gonna give you to count to that won't work on me and a one ah man Good to see you here in what do they call it the Valley of chiefs

Aaron Brien: 57:16

I'm not in the valley of the chiefs

Shandin Pete: 57:17

you are of a noble noble people

Aaron Brien: 57:22

that's 25th 20 miles away male

Shandin Pete: 57:27

dear people know this is gonna be memorialized in time. Okay, let's do it. Let's do it. In your your favorite tribal accent not of your own. I know where you're going. Oh, gotta go you gotta go the tribal research specialist add 10 On three to 110 I was too long dead 10 321 Go Come on

Aaron Brien: 58:12

good deeds DNA Welcome to Gibeau research specialist stay we're gonna today when you get bored and you want to learn learn these ways you just click on your phone now. Listen open your ears. We're gonna listen these guys know what they're talking about day that's good um, yeah

Shandin Pete: 59:01

yes. That was it, man. I think that's that's gonna be our last episode. We're gonna discontinue

Aaron Brien: 59:14

we're gonna get canceled.

Shandin Pete: 59:16

Canceled canceled.

Aaron Brien: 59:20

That was canceled.

Shandin Pete: 59:22

Well, I think that's enough for tonight. You have your your battery to tap out and on.

Aaron Brien: 59:30

Okay, so I got a new segment for us though. So we got to do this to end. Okay. You have to think of a topic. They call it trs quick topics. Yeah. What do you want to do? What's what's our response to you? You're the one doing this. So you be in charge. Can be It can't be a long time. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, like 30 seconds.

Shandin Pete: 59:55

Okay, let's do it. Yeah, okay.

Aaron Brien: 59:57

30 seconds. Now Now the next question is the doo doo. I'm going to ask you a topic that you know nothing about. Oh, doesn't have to be related to tribal people. Okay, you just have to articulate it in 30 seconds.

Shandin Pete: 1:00:15

Okay. Yeah. With you. Alright. Okay. What Okay, yeah, I'm ready ready? I think um yeah I mean already been bearish myself once let's do it again

Aaron Brien: 1:00:31

this topic does he have to make sense for me I can mean I can come up with some insane define it or I can say so, Shawn team yeah what is cultural osmosis?

Shandin Pete: 1:00:44

Cultural Osmosis is the process of two cultural groups meeting and thereby employing Ficks law to create a balance between the cultures if there is a gradient or a discrepancy in the amount of cultural expression between the group two groups which could be anything related to religion spirituality.

Aaron Brien: 1:01:12

social order excetera yeah that was dumb cultural awesome, Moses. I didn't know I looked at this pop. And then I seen it handrim I mean, okay. Okay, so everybody.

Shandin Pete: 1:01:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're gonna talk about this more the sovereignty deal but with another individual who know more than we do, because apparently we're a bit dumber comes to

Aaron Brien: 1:01:58

we go ask for help.

Shandin Pete: 1:02:09

Alright, thank you for joining us on this episode. And if you want to learn more about what we're up to go ahead and search tribal research specialist in Twitter, Facebook, or YouTube, and check out our other sites. And if you want to contribute to the show, go ahead and look us up on Patreon. We would appreciate your donation